(Reposting this here, because the version I posted on the DCMBs got turned into a certain someone's own little vendetta thread.)
What are the lines, plot devices, situations put in a comic, or fan posts, that just made you think "WTF?!?"?
For me, it was reading so-called "spoilers" for JSA arcs where the poster leaked that Captain Marvel was either tricked or forced into yelling "SHAZAM!" in the middle of a battle.
Mike Carey wrote the very good Vertigo one-shot, The Furies, with the old Infinity Inc character Lyta Hall receiving some very good treatment, coming together as the incarnation of the Kindly Ones from The Sandman in an excellently written battle with Cronus. One of the best follow ups to Dandman aroound, with awesome art.
Geoff Johns then has her appear in costume released from Fate's amulet in JSA. WTF?
The character should've stayed in Vertigo, and be kept out of mainstream DC.
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: (Reposting this here, because the version I posted on the DCMBs got turned into a certain someone's own little vendetta thread.)
What are the lines, plot devices, situations put in a comic, or fan posts, that just made you think "WTF?!?"?
For me, it was reading so-called "spoilers" for JSA arcs where the poster leaked that Captain Marvel was either tricked or forced into yelling "SHAZAM!" in the middle of a battle.
Next!
Yep. It was the Mr. Mind-controlled Brainwave who was able to tap into Captain Marvel's mind and make him say "SHAZAM!" during his fight with Black Adam.
It IS a cover for an issue Rucka's Wonder Woman, isn't it?
Ok, an issue of Joe Kelly's JLA features the JLA looking for weapons of mass destruction in Qurac, followed by them protesting the war. Then it turns out to be a dream in J'onn J'onzz's dream machine.
Another issue of Joe Kelly's JLA features an evaluation of the Batman-Wonder Woman relationship, then it all turns out to be a dream in J'onn J'onzz's dream machine.
Quote: Disco Steve said: It IS a cover for an issue Rucka's Wonder Woman, isn't it?
Ok, an issue of Joe Kelly's JLA features the JLA looking for weapons of mass destruction in Qurac, followed by them protesting the war. Then it turns out to be a dream in J'onn J'onzz's dream machine.
Another issue of Joe Kelly's JLA features an evaluation of the Batman-Wonder Woman relationship, then it all turns out to be a dream in J'onn J'onzz's dream machine.
What the motherfuck?
Fucking dream machine bullshit. The guy who came up with that should become a fucking parking ticket inspector. He's no writer.
They keep up this level of utter garbage with Martian dream machines, and they're not doing anything in the industry a service.
Fucking subeditors shuld keep dipshit writers who use that sort of puerile nonsense on a tight leash, and give it a yank every now and again.
ShazamGrrl1 won't like how this thread ended up, either.
Hey, Snapman, I don't mind threads going off on tangents. Sometimes, they're more fun when they do. Some of the posts you guys put up have even given me a good chuckle.
Okay, sorta but not quite on topic, here's a real world wtf: I visited this other BB twice, yet the owner of that BB now claims I'm on his board "all the time" and is now calling me a cyber-stalker. This guy and his friend, btw, have followed me onto every other e-mail group and BB I've ever joined or formed, not the other way around.
Quote: Disco Steve said: It IS a cover for an issue Rucka's Wonder Woman, isn't it?
Ok, an issue of Joe Kelly's JLA features the JLA looking for weapons of mass destruction in Qurac, followed by them protesting the war. Then it turns out to be a dream in J'onn J'onzz's dream machine.
Another issue of Joe Kelly's JLA features an evaluation of the Batman-Wonder Woman relationship, then it all turns out to be a dream in J'onn J'onzz's dream machine.
What the motherfuck?
Fucking dream machine bullshit. The guy who came up with that should become a fucking parking ticket inspector. He's no writer.
They keep up this level of utter garbage with Martian dream machines, and they're not doing anything in the industry a service.
Fucking subeditors shuld keep dipshit writers who use that sort of puerile nonsense on a tight leash, and give it a yank every now and again.
I dunno if it was the writer's fault. I just blame the editors. I would have thought Joe Kelly was smarter than to use such a lame-ass plot device without being forced into it.
Ok, Peter Milligan writes a controversial X-Statix story arc where Princess Di comes back from the dead, entitled "Di Another Day." Joe Quesada lets the cat out of the bag in the stupidest way possible, by exclaiming on a radio show "Princess Di is coming back, and he's joining an X-Team!" All the bad press/controversy scare the upper management a bit, fearing loss of movie deals, and Milligan is forced to changed Princess Di into some fictional pop star and the storyline is retitled "Back from the Dead." As a result, the storyline makes absolutely no sense, as the original was to involve some sort of British government conspiracy against Diana, thus giving us several issues of nonsensical shit in the mostly brilliant new X-Force/X-Statix.
What's the Biggest "WTF" Story In Comics? .
Page 1 of the original topic:
Quote: Shazamgrrl, posted January 30, 2002 05:48 AM .
Seriously, I want to know what story (or stories) made you say "What the ----?"
.
I'll reserve mine for later. I have to find the confounded books.
------------------
Shazamgrrl, aka the Magnificent Cosmic Vagabond. .
"Did she say "APPLESAUCE"?!" - Mr. Mind,
The Incredible Sinking City .
Join the Capt. Marvel Jr. Club at: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/captainmarveljr .
and the Mary Marvel Club at: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/marymarvel .
"I have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differenciate me from a doormat." - Rebecca West, 1913
.
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt, 1814-1962
Quote: therealdeadshot, posted January 30, 2002 06:14 AM .
There have been several comics which made me say WTF cause they treated the characters really shabbily, such as Zero Hour, the Catwoman ish where Nemesis is killed by some stupid old dude or Emerald Twilight. I had to sell them immediately, so I would never be forced to think about them again.
.
...now you made me cry
.
On a more positive side I would mention the Ambush Bug story with Johnny DC, the continuity cop, any comic with Captain America or whoever administering a beating on Hitler or the death of Leonard in HATE.
Quote: Porky Pine, posted January 30, 2002 06:18 AM .
A late '70s issue of SUPERMAN... #322 I think it was.
.
A satellite orbiting the Earth fires a beam of energy at Metropolis, and Superman, rather than moving or otherwise disabling the satellite, moves the PLANET. Jeez, Supes, we know how strong you are. You don't have to show off like that!
------------------
"Trouble with people around here is they refuse to take me seriously!" - Woozy Winks, Police Comics #14
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 30, 2002 07:54 AM .
"Emerald Twaddle" is certainly a contender.
.
In a less distasteful vein, there are a plenty of stories from the Mort Weisinger era that left me tapping the side of my head with the head of my hand -- a particular favorite being "The Irresistible Lois Lane," from issue # 29 of Superman's Girl Friend Whatzername.
No plot summary can do it justice, because no plot summary makes much sense. We are talking byzantine, boys and girls.
.
Robert Kanigher wrote many utterly lunatic stories, too, and not just for Wonder Woman.
.
A stand-out in his War That Time Forgot series for Star Spangled War Stories is called, if memory serves, "My Buddy, The Dinosaur," wherein a G.I. reveals that he keeps having a dream in which he turns into a dinosaur. He exacts a promise from one of his squadmates: "Promise me you'll shoot me if I start to turn into a dinosaur." And, next thing ya know, he has turned into a dinosaur. I
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 30, 2002 07:55 AM .
That line should read, "there are plenty of stories from the Mort Weisinger era that left me tapping the side of my head with the heel of my hand." It's early, and the caffeine hasn't kicked in.
Quote: Evgeny, posted January 30, 2002 10:19 AM .
I remember that dinosaur story. Yup, that was definitely a WTF one right there. Also, how about Hypertime ? I
Quote: Cliffy Mark II, posted January 30, 2002 11:17 AM .
I've never seen it, but the Superman/Big Barda are hypnotized into performing in pornographic films issues is worth mentioning.
--Cliffy
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 30, 2002 11:57 AM .
I take it back -- it is possible to summarize the aforementioned story, "The Irresistible Lois Lane," as Old Dude demonstrates below. I swear by all I hold holy that his is a straightforward and unembellished description.
.
Now here's Old Dude:
Quote: In "The Irresistable Lois Lane," Superman is immobilized by a green kryptonite meteor near his Arctic Fortress of Solitude.
.
Superman is prepared for anything. He has in place "Plan L" which is to be innitiated by Lois in case Superman is endangered by green kryptonite near the Fortress of Solitude.
.
Really.
.
Krypto, the Superdog, cannot go near the meteor to save his master, so instead of melting it with his x-ray vision, blowing it away with his super-breath, or just dropping something heavy on it to drive it deep into the ground, he sky-writes the letter "L" over the skies of Metropolis so Lois will put "Plan L" into operation.
.
The plan is for Lois too get to Superman some red kryptonite she keeps in her compact. This red K has proven in the past to cause a temporary invulnerability to Kryptonians.
.
Now as it happens, the Superman Revenge Squad, I believe it was, is watching Lois for some reason, so she can't just call a JLA member and give him the RK. Instead, she crushes the stuff into powder, dips her lipstick into it and spreads a little of the powder on her lips. She then goes from hero to hero in the JLA and gives each a big smooch, smearing the red kryptonite on each one.
The boys get together, wipe off the lipstick onto a handkerchief, and Batman flies it to the North Pole in his Batplane. He ties the kerchief onto a Batarang and hurls it down to the stricken Superman, who acquires invulnerability to the green K and is saved.
.
I couldn't make this stuff up. There was also "Plan P" and "Plan J." But those are other tales entirely.
Quote: jimmy olsen, posted January 30, 2002 11:59 AM .
I've got to mention the Starman issue where several heroes decide to recreate the Justice League Europe, just to get killed by Mist!
One Crimson Fox was already dead...did they really need to kill the other one?
.
lol...that was also one of the many times Blue Devil supposedly bit it.
------------------
"We're here to catch them when they fall." --Superman
.
"Meantime, I'm drawing soap!" -- Kyle Rayner in Superman Adventures Brightest Day
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 30, 2002 12:01 PM .
Got all that?
.
Good.
.
The male Justice League members* Lois kisses are
Batman, of course,
Aquaman,
and The Green Arrow, who shows off his Vacuum-Cleaner Arrow.
.
* A less careful or more mischievous writer than I might have written "Justice League male members Lois kisses."
Quote: Justin League America, posted January 30, 2002 12:13 PM .
Hello,
.
Wow.
Seriously.
That is true Mort Wiesinger contrivance if I've ever seen it.
I'm stunned.
Quote: Iron Sun, posted January 30, 2002 12:25 PM .
Those bone claws of Wolverine's. They make no sense in the context of earlier stories.
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 30, 2002 01:28 PM .
The rule in Mort Weisinger's Superman books seems to have been: Always take the long way around. Nothing was ever as simple for Superman as it should have been. When, finally, during the mid-1960s, young Jim Shooter began pitting him against very physical foes such as Eterno the Immortal, The Parasite, and The Four Element Enemies -- each of whom could dish it out as well as take it, mano a mano -- the Man of Steel's relief was palpable.
Quote: fuzznugget, posted January 30, 2002 04:20 PM .
Marvel's last attempt at a BLADE comic.
You could have tied me up in a strait jacket, hopped up on horse tranquilizers with a crayon duct-taped to my foot and I could have come up with a better story than that.
.
Let's hope the new one is worthy of the movie. I seem to remember a Silver Age METAL MEN comic where they fought a giant egg that was a really, really bad Chinese stereotype for some reason.
Quote: Aaron, posted January 30, 2002 04:28 PM .
Some of the recent Nuff Said issues by Marvel.
.
Especially that waste of space X-Force issue that took about 2 seconds to read. (Doop pops a zit and everyone gets sucked into a zit-portal.)
.
And I LIKE X-Force! But what a waste of money that was.
.
Ditto the Defenders Nuff Said issue.
Stick a fork in it, that series is DONE.
--Aaron
Quote: Mr Monkey, posted January 30, 2002 04:29 PM .
DC's GENESIS mini-series from a few years back.
.
DC's multi-company x-overs usually stink, but this one was ridiculous...
Quote: Old Dude, posted January 30, 2002 05:49 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by fuzznugget: .
I seem to remember a Silver Age Metal Men comic where they fought a giant egg that was a really, really bad Chinese stereotype for some reason.
.
I believe that was "Egg Fu," a villain Kanigher created in his Wonder Woman comic.
.
At least, I THINK it was Kanigher. He may have been a Golden Age retread, because:
.
1. As Fuzzy says, it was a stereotype SO Chinky-Chinaman, that I don't think it was born in the '60s.
2. On the Mary Tyler Moore show in the early'70s, Mary Richards tells a young girl about reading Wonder Woman comics as a child, ans especially remembering the villain Egg Fu.
.
I've always assumed that this was just an anachronism planted by some TV writer who assumed that "comics is comics" and time frame is irrelevent. But perhaps he really was around when Mary was a girl.
.
Does anyone know?
.
Related to that last item, on an episode of M*A*S*H*, which took place during the Korean War, Radar O'Reilly is shown reading a copy of Marvel's Avengers comic 10 years before it was published.
Quote: Old Dude, posted January 30, 2002 05:54 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by Steven Utley: .
I take it back -- it is possible to summarize the aforementioned story, "The Irresistible Lois Lane," as Old Dude demonstrates below. I swear by all I hold holy that his is a straightforward and unembellished description.
.
Thanks for resurrecting my old post, Steve.
How the heck did you find it?
It was good to hear how "Loois" saved "Suoerman" with the "reed" kryptonite.
I really have to start proof reading these things!
[ Typos corrected in previous posts above, that Old Dude refers to. --Dave t W B ]
Quote: Joe Kinski, posted January 30, 2002 06:03 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by fuzznugget:
.
I seem to remember a Silver Age Metal Men comic where they fought a giant egg that was a really, really bad Chinese stereotype for some reason.
.
Yeah.
.
Egg Fu shows up in the late 170's/early 180's issues of Wonder Woman, just before the move to the new, costume-less Diana Prince, Wonder Woman.
I don't know if that is the initial appearance, but it is the only one I know of.
.
I guess that time frame would put it about 1968 ... definitely not Mary Tyler Moore's youth.
-- Joe
Quote: whomod, posted January 30, 2002 06:30 PM .
The resolution of the Superman Red/Superman Blue storyline a few years ago.
Quote: mfisher, posted January 30, 2002 07:17 PM .
Justice League Antarctica.
.
All I could think of were stories like the Search for the Seven Soldiers of Victory and say WTF-How did it come to this?
.
The Doc Savage mini series. Worst Doc adaptation ever.
.
The simple fact that Guy Gardner got his own book. WTF.
.
Bill Jaska's art on The New Titans. Double WTF.
Quote: fangirl22, posted January 30, 2002 07:25 PM .
New member here.
.
I have to say the Martian Manhunter 1,000,000 issue.
.
Kyle Rayner is on Mars in the far distant future and discovers that J'onn has become the planet Mars??
I know some people really liked this issue, but I just said 'what the ----?'
.
Maybe it just needs to grow on me.
J'onn's been my favorite character for over a decade now, I just can't see that future. Doesn't he at least deserve a Gladiator-like ending that reunites him with his family in the afterlife?
Quote: The Vigilante, posted January 30, 2002 08:45 PM .
My most recent "WTF" was actually a good thing.
.
I picked up a Marvel back issue I had never read before, GIANT SIZE SUPERVILLAIN TEAM-UP #2, and I noticed something very familiar about it as I read the story.
I turned to the credits and there, big as day, was Mike Sekowsky's name.
I hadn't remembered him ever doing any Marvel work, and here he was doing Namor and Dr. Doom.
.
Nice change over the usual Marvel crap of the time (except for Frank Robbins' INVADERS of course).
--Rich
------------------
"Fightin's out of style...Fear's where the fun's at!"
-- Firesign Theatre
---------
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing,
T'is that I may not weep..."
----Lord Byron, from Don Juan
Quote: heffalump, posted January 30, 2002 10:08 PM .
My favourite WTF comic has to be an issue of DC Presents that teamed Superman with the Freedom Fighters. I just reread it a couple of nights ago, 'cause I find it sooo kitsch.
.
1980's Nazi's have stolen the original Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. As a result, America is subjected to a barrage of natural disasters as the 'spirit of America' is in the hands of evil! These are some damn powerful bits of paper!
Uncle Sam tries to convince Superman of this, but is frustrated that Supes doesn't believe a word. (Funny, that!)
Apparently, it was the Nazis' theft of these documents on Earth X that won them the Second World War...
.
Instead, the Freedom Fighters set out to recover the documents. Uncle Sam can lead them straight to the Nazi's hide-out, as he is sensitive to the Spirit of America (of course).
.
Meanwhile, Superman speeds from disaster to disaster. The Russians have now decided that this is a great time to ship nuclear weapons to Cuba to restart the missile crisis.
Supes doesn't want to stop the ships and trigger a conflict if he can avoid it, but as luck would have it, the convoy of ships is in the path of a falling satellite which has also succumbed to the disasters. Seeing the satellite falling, Superman actually says that he deosn't know what to do! (Like he hasn't dealt with this type of situation every week for decades...)
.
Instead of catching the satellite or destroying it with his heat vision, or any less aggressive stance, he decides the best course of action is to lift the Russian ship out of the water and out of the satellite's path. Somehow, this doesn't start world war 3.
.
Superman eventually comes to his senses, and meets up with the Freedom Fighters at the Nazi hide-out in time for the big fight scene. The documents are recovered and returned to their rightful place, and all the disasters cease..
I laughed when I first read it and I laughed when I read it again this week. I'm still amazed that this isn't a Silver Age story, but actually dates from 1982.
Quote: KryptoSuperDog, posted January 30, 2002 10:30 PM .
I was cleaning out old comic boxes the other day, and came across a "summer annual" tie-in from the 90s.
.
It was something about Bloodlines and all these stupid vulgar aliens ripping up the planet. Pretty forgettable, since no one ever mentions those stories anymore, and even I forgot I had them!
.
Well, I got to reading them and couldn't make heads or tails out of them...
.
There are many many more confusing WTF stories in DCU, but it seems most of them revolve around multi-part epics like this, when the editors lose control, and lose their minds.
Great for sales, though, oh yeah.
.
I think the single-most confusing story I ever read though, was Giffen's last run on Legion of Super-Heroes, when they branched out into doing the Legionnaires as well, and Cosmic Boy turned out to be the Time Trapper, and Lightning Lad was really Proty I, and other such rubbish.
.
Yeah, right, whatEVah..
Thankfully, all those stories were voided out forever and ever due to Zero Hour...(another bloody confusing tale).
Quote: The Indestructible Man, posted January 30, 2002 11:56 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by Old Dude: .
Related to that last item, on an episode of M*A*S*H*, which took place during the Korean War, Radar O'Reilly is shown reading a copy of Marvel's Avengers comic 10 years before it was published.
.
C'mon, you KNOW Radar had to be a time-traveller or something, which is why he could always predict when choppers would show up!
Quote: The Anti-Life Equation, posted January 31, 2002 12:07 AM .
Emerald Twilight.
------------------
The ALE
.
"Just because it's me saying it doesn't make it wrong."
-Green Arrow
Quote: Steve Chung, posted January 31, 2002 12:09 AM .
Electric Superman
Genesis
Worlds At War
Last Laugh (Though I did enjoy the Gotham Knights and JSA issues)
Doomsday
Knightfall
Knight's End (Touchy-feely healing?)
Zero Hour
Millenium Giants
Quote: Old Dude, posted January 31, 2002 12:18 AM .
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the master of WTF: Mort Weisinger!
I didn't use the phrase when I was young, but just about every Weisinger comic contained one glorious WTF moment.
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 31, 2002 12:48 AM .
... and then there are the Mort Weisinger comics that consist entirely of W.T.F. moments.
.
"The Irresistible Lois Lane," please note, was one of three, count 'em, stories in issue # 29, each only eight pages long.
Quote: PhroG, posted January 31, 2002 01:14 AM .
Ok... the one story that was such a WTF that it drove me from comics...
.
The unimaginably complex and yet completely stupid and ridiculous CLONE SAGA over at Marvel...
.
I can't say enough bad things about that...
It frustrated me so much that I left comics for 3 years, as I determined if this was the best they could do, I wasn't wasting my money
.
=Ian=
Quote: OPMaster, posted January 31, 2002 01:57 AM .
How about the whole Avengers:Timeslide mess where it was revealed that with Kang pulling the strings Tony Stark had went p p crazy and wound up being killed and replaced by a teenage version of himself that was worried about getting laid instead of being Iron Man.
.
W T F???????
------------------
OP
"You have your opinion, I have mine. That's what makes the world interesting. " Dave the Wonder Boy
.
"My mistress is pooped, the Reds have Oklahoma and I'm going to bed!!!" HodgePodge,Bloom County, 1985
Quote: Rockscissorspaper, posted January 31, 2002 02:13 AM .
Quote: Originally posted by Iron Sun: .
Those bone claws of Wolverine's. They make no sense in the context of earlier stories.
True, true...in a related topic, I also thought WTF when Claremont decided that Wolverine's claws rip through his skin each time he pops them. (this was in a story where his healing factor was removed and he bled when his claws came out)
...so scientists go through the trouble of building "housings" for the claws but decide not to make a way for them to pop out? WTF??
Quote: CakeDaddy, posted January 31, 2002 03:13 AM .
Quote: Originally posted by Steven Utley:
.
I take it back -- it is possible to summarize the aforementioned story, "The Irresistible Lois Lane," as Old Dude demonstrates below. I swear by all I hold holy that his is a straightforward and unembellished description.
.
Have mercy, that's horrible. We have a winnah!
.
And the runner up...
.
Quote: OP Master .
How about the whole Avengers:Timeslide mess where it was revealed that with Kang pulling the strings Tony Stark had went p p crazy and wound up being killed and replaced by a teenage version of himself that was worried about getting laid instead of being Iron Man.
------------------
Life without knowledge is death in disguise. - Talib Kweli
.
"I used to be with it, but then they changed what 'it' was! Now what I'm with isn't 'it', and what's 'it' is weird and scary!" - Grandpa Simpson
.
"This was not combat! You were beaten the moment you chose to engage me!" - J'onn J'onzz
.
"I appreciate your confidence in me Plastic Man. Of course I have a plan." -Batman
Quote: Shazamgrrl, posted January 31, 2002 03:37 AM .
Waitaminute, this isn't a contest! It was something inspired by extreme exhaustion!
------------------
Shazamgrrl, aka the Magnificent Cosmic Vagabond.
.
"Did she say "APPLESAUCE"?!" - Mr. Mind, The Incredible Sinking City
.
Join the Capt. Marvel Jr. Club at: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/captainmarveljr and the Mary Marvel Club at: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/marymarvel .
"It's just me, Mary and Billy. We get our powers from an ancient wizard named Shazam. Or rather, Billy and Mary get them directly from Shazam, and I get them from Shazam through Billy. Y'see, we're also the Marvel Family."
- Freddy Freeman, from With Great Power, by me.
Quote: Black Zero.1, posted January 31, 2002 03:44 AM .
For me, it's pretty much every time-travel story. Just can't accept it.
I can accept Batman never getting shot in the head, Superman's flying, and Wonder Woman not falling out of her golden bra everytime she runs... but I just don't buy characters being able to travel through time. Too many variables, too many... ugh. I just don't like it.
Quote: Ducklord, posted January 31, 2002 03:46 AM .
I know the story isn't over yet, but is it too early to nominate DK2?
Hoping Miller's got something clever up his sleeve for the final issue,
Mike.
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 31, 2002 07:48 AM .
As Shazamgrrl says, this isn't a contest --imagine, instead, that you have been asked to make suggestions for a forthcoming trade-paperback anthology to be called The Most W.T.F. Stories Ever Told.
.
Candidates for (dis)honorable mentions can be the most bloated story arcs of all time, e.g., The Trial of the Flash, The Spidey-Clone, etc., but candidates for inclusion must be stand-alone (or, more accurately, fall-down-alone) stories.
.
"The Irresistible Lois Lane" definitely ought to make the cut. It's my favorite artifact from the Mort Weisinger era because it includes virtually everybody who was anybody in the Superman family (plus The Justice League of America), and because it demonstrates, in eight giddy pages, Weisinger's predilection for Rube Goldberg-ish contrivance.
.
Robert Kanigher's "My Buddy, the Dinosaur" (or whatever the title is) also deserves a place on the short list. Some Kanigher story or other does, anyway. Kanigher claims never to have thought ahead when he started writing a story. He seemed not to think back, either, with the result that his stories often not only flatly contradicted one another but contradicted themselves.
.
So: we have representative works by the master of Needless Complication and the master of Seat-of-the-Pants Plotting. Surely there's a(n un)worthy story by Roy Thomas, the master of Mind-Numbing Minutiae. And Gerry Conway. And -- well, while you're coming up with your own nominees, I need to go refresh my memory so that I can present the case for Hank Fletcher, aka Fletcher Hanks, the mad genius (or something) responsible for Stardust, the Immortal Wizard.
Quote: Bud Mack, posted January 31, 2002 07:55 AM .
Lois Lane, Black like me!
------------------
Jason
. "...then he kissed her, like a butterfly kisses the windshield of a Porsche on the Autobahn."
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 31, 2002 07:58 AM .
Bud, that's low.
Quote: Lady Obie 33, posted January 31, 2002 08:00 AM .
My biggest WTF is that DC actually used Obsidian as a villain AGAIN in JSA's Darkness Falls (ok, I'm sure at least 2 more of us out there read the GL/Sentinel: Heart of Darkness mini from '98, yep, that was a monumentally bad story too :-P ).
That is just such a DUMB idea.
.
I mean look at Obsidian & let's fill in the why he would make a good villian checklist:
.
a. He has dark powers (dark = evil) CHECK
.
b. He had an abusive childhood CHECK
.
c. He has a pessimistic personality CHECK
.
But what David Goyer doesn't realize is all those things make the idea of Obsidian being a villian both extremely unsurprising & uninteresting.
.
Why couldn't Obie instead have been used as a hero fighting off a shadow-powered villian like Ian Karkull? There are plenty of ways suspense could've been built up in a story like that.
.
But I guess that would've been a tad too original.
.
Now I'm just sitting around twiddling my thumbs wondering when or if the JSA team will ever strut their stuff & make an interesting HERO out of Obie.
.
Stay tuned. In the meantime here's a pillow.
Quote: StuRat, posted January 31, 2002 01:14 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by Old Dude: .
1. As Fuzzy says, it was a stereotype SO Chinky-Chinaman, that I don't think it was born in the '60s.
.
Was it really necessary to use this phrase, even as an ostensibly neutral way of describing how ridiculously stereotyped Egg Fu was? Frankly, the mere description of Egg Fu -- what he looked like, and his goals -- would have been more than sufficient to make your point.
.
I'm just surprised that the word wasn't censored -- the DC boards seem to be pretty good about using asterisks when racial and other epithets are used (the "N word" and the "F word," for example). Hell, you can't even type "fus.sy" without having the last five letters bleeped out, because the boards think you're trying to type "pus.sy"...
Quote: Justin League America, posted January 31, 2002 01:43 PM .
Hello,
.
Quote: Originally posted by Bud Mack: .
Lois Lane, Black like me!
.
For those not in the know, this was an issue of Lois Lane, where Superman's girlfriend "Must... [Be] Black for 24 Hours!" Plus, it's title is taken from the name of a pornographic film...
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 31, 2002 01:52 PM .
No, no, JLA: Black Like Me is the title of a book by John Howard Griffin; I Am Curious (Yellow) is the title of a soft-core porn flick; and the Lois Lane story which Bud Mack cites and which you'll find reprinted in Superman in the Seventies, is called "I Am Curious (Black)."
Quote: Tom Curry, posted January 31, 2002 04:58 PM .
Sometime in the late 70s, there was a Superman issue in which we find out that the real reason no one suspects Supeerman is actually Clark Kent is because Clark is perpetually and unconsciously using super-hypnotism on everyone in the world to make himself seem more thin, frail and nebbishy.
Apparently his glasses -- relics of the window of the rocket that brought him to earth -- magnify his unconscious desire to look different when he's Clark and blah blah blah fishcakes..
I remember reading that as a kid and thinking ... just .... why?
Why bother trying to explain something like that? Has that question really been keeping anyone up nights?
.
But I didn't come out and say WTF until the end of the issue, when he got an artist friend to draw a portrait of Clark. We see that:
.
1. the super-"I'm a wimp" hypnotism somehow works even on tv and in photography, and
.
2. the Clark that everyone in the DC Universe sees when they look at Clark is a cross between David Brinkley and the Love Boat's own Gavin McLeod.
Quote: Steven Utley, posted January 31, 2002 05:21 PM .
Welcome to the DC message boards, Tom.
.
When I was a kid, I may have wondered why no one saw the clear physical resemblance between Superman and Clark Kent, but I didn't obsess over it... unlike some other kid who evidently couldn't wait until he grew up and became a real actual funny-book writer and could answer just that burning question.
Quote: heffalump, posted January 31, 2002 05:47 PM .
Someone may be able to confirm this.
But wasn't there a Superman comic that put forward the idea that no one recognises Supes as Clark because when he is in his Superman garb, he carefully vibrates his head at high speed so as to oh-so-slightly blur his features? I really can't think where I read this one and it would take me months to find the offending issue even if I still own it, so I may need to rely on someone else confirming this one.
------------------
"All it takes is a colourful imagination and a glib tongue!" (The Fourth Doctor)
Quote: The Rob, posted January 31, 2002 05:50 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by Steve Chung: .
Electric Superman
Genesis
Worlds At War
Last Laugh (Though I did enjoy the Gotham Knights and JSA issues)
Doomsday
Knightfall
Knight's End (Touchy-feely healing?)
Zero Hour
Millenium Giants
.
Look at me, I hate DC
Quote: BearPaws, posted January 31, 2002 05:54 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by heffalump .
Someone may be able to confirm this. but wasn't there a Superman comic that put forward the idea that no one recognises Supes as Clark because when he is in his Superman garb, he carefully vibrates his head at high speeds so as to oh-so-slightly blur his features?...
.
I think this was proposed in one of the early Byrne issues, for the purpose of no one getting a clear photograph of Superman and doing comparisons later.
.
------------------
"I knew I wasn't risking my secret identity with you! After all, if I can't trust the President of the United States, who can I trust?"
--Superman to JFK, Action Comics #309, February 1964
.
Quote: jimmy olsen, posted January 31, 2002 06:00 PM .
Quote: Originally posted by heffalump .
Someone may be able to confirm this. but wasn't there a Superman comic that put forward the idea that no one recognises Supes as Clark because when he is in his Superman garb, he carefully vibrates his head at high speeds so as to oh-so-slightly blur his features? I really can't think where I read this one and it would take me months to find the offending issue even if I still own it, so I may need to rely on someone else confirming this one.
.
Yay! Yay! A Superman question! lol....actually that idea, although it might have been put forth before this, was given in John Byrne's revamp of Superman. If you check out those early issues, like possibly the Clark Kent is Superman issue, I believe that is the reason given.
.
------------------
"We're here to catch them when they fall."
--Superman
.
"Meantime, I'm drawing soap!" -- Kyle Rayner in Superman Adventures Brightest Day
LOL. No kidding! I'm not reading all that. I barely skim half of DTWB's posts even when they're not simply cut and pasted from somewhere else -- the man needs to learn to make his points more succinct. No offense intended, of course.
The "novel" I posted is other people's posts to the original topic.
Silly me, I thought I was providing a service to those who enjoyed and participated in the original topic, that many would enjoy.
Not one of the posts in the first two pages I reconstructed are mine, so it's not my "novel".
I find it amusing that those who criticize my writing here are the same ones who consistently disagree with my political views in the DEEP THOUGHTS section.
No vendettas or axes to grind in your bashing me, I'm sure.
When you start paying attention to the posts I'm responding to (by Whomod, T-Dave, Animalman and Wednesday, Darknight613 and Matter Eater Man, for example), which are usually very long themselves and don't lend themselves to short answers, then you might actually demonstrate some credibility and non-partisanship in bashing the length of my posts.
GEEZ ! I was just reconstructing a popular topic (as I also did the "Cheese" topic, and a few other good discussions.)
~
Chewy, to answer your question, I would just post a link to the original, if the old topic still existed.
~
To those of you who don't appreciate the reconstructed topic:
Don't read it. No one's twisting your arm.
Jebus, dude! Get off your high horse. I could care less about your political leanings, but I do think reposting old topics like you tend to do is tiresome to the rest of us. Even if we don't read it, we have to scroll down through all that shit just to get to the next post in the topic. It breaks up the flow of conversation and gay jokes at Rob's and/or LLance's expense. No one was flaming you for it. They were just expressing their opinions on your doing it. Stop acting like a fucking victim. You're starting to sound like Jack, the Lil' Death.
Quote: thedoctor said: Jebus, dude! Get off your high horse. I could care less about your political leanings, but I do think reposting old topics like you tend to do is tiresome to the rest of us. Even if we don't read it, we have to scroll down through all that shit just to get to the next post in the topic. It breaks up the flow of conversation and gay jokes at Rob's and/or LLance's expense. No one was flaming you for it. They were just expressing their opinions on your doing it. Stop acting like a fucking victim. You're starting to sound like Jack, the Lil' Death.
I'm not "acting like a f---ing victim".
I'm actually just trying to have some fun.
Shazamgrrl resurrected an old topic, and in the spirit of the old topic, I actually reproduced some of it.
Just trying to have some fun. If the Thought Police are okay with that.
I didn't see that I was interrupting much of anything. If anything, I was trying to jump-start the topic, by bringing in some more WTF's from the old topic to discuss.
I don't care if you repost it. You should just consider that some people are going to see it as odd or interrupting and will express their opinions or just have fun and joke with you about it, as Pro and others did. Instead, you come back with this:
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: The "novel" I posted is other people's posts to the original topic.
Silly me, I thought I was providing a service to those who enjoyed and participated in the original topic, that many would enjoy. Not one of the posts in the first two pages I reconstructed are mine, so it's not my "novel".
I find it amusing that those who criticize my writing here are the same ones who consistently disagree with my political views in the DEEP THOUGHTS section. No vendettas or axes to grind in your bashing me, I'm sure.
When you start paying attention to the posts I'm responding to (by Whomod, T-Dave, Animalman and Wednesday, Darknight613 and Matter Eater Man, for example), which are usually very long themselves and don't lend themselves to short answers, then you might actually demonstrate some credibility and non-partisanship in bashing the length of my posts.
GEEZ ! I was just reconstructing a popular topic (as I also did the "Cheese" topic, and a few other good discussions.)
~
Chewy, to answer your question, I would just post a link to the original, if the old topic still existed.
~
To those of you who don't appreciate the reconstructed topic: Don't read it. No one's twisting your arm.
To those of you who do: Enjoy !
You declare some feud between you and some posters instead of seeing the friendly and humorous jab. You throw out partisanship and everything else to make it look like some devious conspiracy circling around your posting is in the works.
Don't sweat him, Doc. The Wonder Boy hasn't changed since the DCMBS. He still gets his panties in a twist if you so much as blink twice his way. And, don't bother trying to explain the harmless nature of my remarks to him. He won't listen. The world is out to get him....
Guys, Dave added the posts from the original topic because the old DCMBs went the way of the Dodo bird.
Look at it this way: it was only the first couple of pages. Posting all 24 pages would have been an enormous pain in the arse for Dave, not to mention being a lot of posts to read through. And since I was gone from the boards for over a year, I didn't know that the page count was that high.
I would say WTF were they thinking turning Hal into Parallax. But, I recently began reading the old Green Lanturn issues, starting with Emerald Twilight. I just finished #64. Now, I want to know WTF they were thinking when they killed Hal off and made him Spectre. In #64, we finally see what Hal has become. He is torn. He seems to finally understand that he can't undo the past, but he doesn't know what he can do now, because he has crossed the line. He doesn't know how to be a hero again. Talk about story potential. But, instead of setting him asside until someone could come along and finally give Hal that second chance (as the powerful Parallax), they have him sacrifice himself in Final Night (or so I am told). So, basically, they had this great character to work with. I mean, the guy was really messed up. Everything leading to him becoming Parallax made sense. But then, I guess they just didn't realize what they really had, and they had no clue what the next phase of evolution for Hal Jordan would be, so they said "fuck this, we're too dumb to give him his own book," and they killed him off. But then they made him Spectre. And now they are bringing him back somehow. So, what the fuck? They should have never killed him off. They should have left him alone and waited for say, I don't know, a guy like Peter David, to take over the character. Idiots.
Does anyone remember THOR 364 by Simonson, the issue where Thor was turned into a frog for an issue, and he fought heroically for a whole issue as the Frog of Thunder, before being restored to god-human form?
One of my favorite runs was Roger Stern/John Romita Jr.'s AMAZING SPIDERMAN 224-251 run (from 1982-1984). I don't think any creative team has ever handled the character better.
The Hobgoblin was introduced in issue 238. And there was a very exciting buildup while Stern was scripting the series, that petered out as soon as Stern left the book.
My nominee WTF storyline was where whoever was scripting the book around 1988-1989, (Tom Defalco? David Michelinie? ) revealed (in total contradiction to all the past clues given to the character's identity) that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds (issue 289 ).
????!!!???
Truly, WHAT THE F---.
I even wrote Marvel at the time with a lengthy list of the clues, and even suggested several ways they could repair the story in a way that made sense and didn't insult readers' intelligence.
I nominate the "Damaged Goods" story from the Titans. In it, we learn that Damage's foster parents sexually molested young Grant Emerson. This didn't make a lick of sense, seeing as how they were handpicked by Vandal Savage to raise the potentially uber-powerful kid and not sent to sleep with Jimmy Hoffa for damaging his mental state. Equally ridiculous was Arsenal's solution. "Therapy? Feh! Let the emotionally disturbed teenager who blows up live with my Indian tribe!" The hell?
Outsiders 9 & 10, by Winnick and Haley, which features the "new, improved" Sabbac and Captain Marvel Jr. in his "new", WHITE cape. In a nutshell, Timothy Karnes, a character who's never been seen before in the mainstream DC Universe, suddenly becomes Freddy Freeman's foster-brother, makes a pact with the Devil because he's "jealous" of Freddy's being Captain Marvel Jr., and winds up murdered by a Russian mobster for his own powers.
For those who don't know, Junior's supposed to have a RED CAPE, not a white. Freddy's whole "color chart" is supposed to differeciate him from his "big brother", Captain Marvel.
I kind of like Mary Marvel in the new white costume, though.
I first saw it in the FORMERLY KNOWN AS THE JUSTICE LEAGUE series, although I think having her in a white costume was around a few years prior to that.
But I like Captain Marvel Jr. in his classic blue costume. And especially as drawn by Mac Raboy ! I've also seen Captain Marvel Junior's cape done as red-and-gold on the outer side, and white on the underside, which I kind of like, because it gives his costume a wider range of color. It was done this way in a few panels of the facsimile 1953 SHAZAM ANNUAL about 2 years ago (although I think it was a coloring error, it was visually interesting, as was coloring the underside black, which could be the color, or just a shadow effect).
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: (Reposting this here, because the version I posted on the DCMBs got turned into a certain someone's own little vendetta thread.)
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: My nominee WTF storyline was where whoever was scripting the book around 1988-1989, (Tom Defalco? David Michelinie? ) revealed (in total contradiction to all the past clues given to the character's identity) that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds (issue 289 ).
I have (or used to, maybe) that issue. It's one of the three Spider-Man issues I have. I think it was Micheline. I always thought the guy they revealed the Hobgoblin to be was created there. Who was he?
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: (Reposting this here, because the version I posted on the DCMBs got turned into a certain someone's own little vendetta thread.)
please elaborate...
Long story short, not 5 minutes after I made the post on the DCMBs, Food Eater Lad started with his usual spam: making accusations of "Liar" and "hypocrit" (his misspelling, not mine) and innuendoes about whether or not I was a closet JSA fan (I'm not).
Truth is, the guy's had it in for me from the first time he posted there. He's followed me onto almost every forum I've frequented, and was one of the reasons I shut down the Rock of Eternity Forum.
. Long story short, not 5 minutes after I made the post on the DCMBs, Food Eater Lad started with his usual spam: making accusations of "Liar" and "hypocrit" (his misspelling, not mine) and innuendoes about whether or not I was a closet JSA fan (I'm not). . Truth is, the guy's had it in for me from the first time he posted there. He's followed me onto almost every forum I've frequented, and was one of the reasons I shut down the Rock of Eternity Forum.
I thought you were referring to the part I reproduced in the "Liberal Media" topic (reproducing pages 11 and 12 of the original WTF topic, if I recall), where the WTF topic took a detour into political discussion about liberal media bias.
But I saw the section of the WTF topic you refer to, Shazamgrrl, where said person was accusing you of stuff. But it still went on and remained a very enjoyable topic, despite the best efforts of said person you referred to.
Quote:
The Time Trust: .
Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy: My nominee WTF storyline was where whoever was scripting the book around 1988-1989, (Tom Defalco? David Michelinie? ) revealed (in total contradiction to all the past clues given to the character's identity) that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds (issue 289 )
.
GAH! Spoiler warning! .
Ooops !! Sorry TTT.
Since it's a story that's over 15 years old, I didn't put up the usual spoiler warnings.
In the future, I'll be more careful, for anyone who hasn't read a story referred to yet.
Believe me when I say your money is better spent elsewhere than on AMAZING SPIDERMAN 289.
Roger Stern eventually came back to Marvel and finished the story HIS way, but it was still pretty lame, and not up to usual Roger Stern standards. (In a three-issue HOBGOBLIN LIVES miniseries. Really dull, about two thirds of the series is incredibly dull and wordy flashback sequences, that really suck away any ability to get into the story.)
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: I thought you were referring to the part I reproduced in the "Liberal Media" topic (pages 11 and 12 ofthe topic, if I recall).
But I saw the section you refer to, Shazamgrrl, where said person was accusing you of stuff. But it still went on and remained a very enjoyable topic, despite the best efforts of said person you referred to.
Quote: The Time Trust: .
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy: My nominee WTF storyline was where whoever was scripting the book around 1988-1989, (Tom Defalco? David Michelinie? ) revealed (in total contradiction to all the past clues given to the character's identity) that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds (issue 289 )
.
GAH! Spoiler warning! .
Ooops !! Sorry TTT.
Since it's a story that's over 15 years old, I didn't put up the usual spoiler warnings.
In the future, I'll be more careful, for anyone who hasn't read a story referred to yet.
Believe me when I say your money is better spent elsewhere than on AMAZING SPIDERMAN 289.
Roger Stern eventually came back to Marvel and finished the story HIS way, but it was still pretty lame, and not up to usual Roger Stern standards. (In a three-issue HOBGOBLIN LIVES miniseries. Really dull, about two thirds of the series is incredibly dull and wordy flashback sequences, that really suck away any ability to get into the story.)
-------------------- "This Man, This Wonder Boy..."
well that doesn't matter anymore because Marvel put out a Hobgoblin mini-series book a couple years back that made Ned Leeds not the Hobgoblin.
My nominee WTF storyline was where whoever was scripting the book around 1988-1989, (Tom Defalco? David Michelinie? ) revealed (in total contradiction to all the past clues given to the character's identity) that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds (issue 289 ).
????!!!???
Truly, WHAT THE F---.
Yeah, I remember that one. I wasn't very old when I read it, so at that time I didn't think any of it, but when I think about it now, it really is a WTF?!?!?
My nominee WTF storyline was where whoever was scripting the book around 1988-1989, (Tom Defalco? David Michelinie? ) revealed (in total contradiction to all the past clues given to the character's identity) that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds (issue 289 ).
????!!!???
Truly, WHAT THE F---.
Yeah, I remember that one. I wasn't very old when I read it, so at that time I didn't think any of it, but when I think about it now, it really is a WTF?!?!?
The original "clone" story was in AMAZING SPIDERMAN 148-149, and quickly ran its course around 1975. It was actually pleasant, before it was resurrected two decades later in the early 1990's as a huge overblown crossover event.
The only other mention of it for a long time was WHAT IF # 30 (December 1981) which was a great "What if Spiderman's clone had lived?" This was a really fun story, that I'd recommend.
I definitely am not a fan of the 90's clone revival.
Another great WHAT IF was "What if Gwen Stacy had lived?" in WHAT IF 24.
I wish this last one could have been stretched into a 6 or 12 issue alternate storyline, to really develop all the great altered elements from the regular series, in this compelling single-issue story that could have been a great expanded series.
Britney, I've only bought 2 issues of Johns' JSA, 6 & 17, and both times I felt ripped-off. Haven't looked at an issue since, nor have I picked up his Hawkman, Flash or Titans. Others like him, and that's fine. I just find what of his I've read too padded, cliche and "Mary Sue-ish" for my tastes.
The purpose of this thread isn't to gripe about some in continuity storyline or character change you just don't like (ie, Hall into Parallax). Even if it's a bad one.
It's supposed to be a place to give the recounts of those so bad they're good or completely goofy and completely retconned out of existence almost immediately stories, most of which seem to come from DC.
Some of the more "classic" examples:
The issue of World's Finest where it was revealed that Bruce Wayne had a heretofore unseen retarded older brother who was institutionalized since childhood.
The issue of Flash wherein we learned that "Mopee" a Mr. Mxyzptlk-like sprite had caused the "magic lightning" that struck the chemicals that turned Barry into the Flash.
The issue of Superman wherein it was stated that Kryptonian lenses in Clark's glasses had "super hypnotism" effect, causing people to see Superman and Clark as two different people.
The issues of Marvel Team up that had Hercules tow, with REALLY BIG CHAINS, the island of Manhattan after a supervillain had made it float away (no mention of all the people who died when the subway tunnels and midtown tunnel flooded BTW).
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: Britney, I've only bought 2 issues of Johns' JSA, 6 & 17, and both times I felt ripped-off. Haven't looked at an issue since, nor have I picked up his Hawkman, Flash or Titans. Others like him, and that's fine. I just find what of his I've read too padded, cliche and "Mary Sue-ish" for my tastes.
dont be ashamed of who you are, if you like JSA just say so dont hide anymore!
The purpose of this thread isn't to gripe about some in continuity storyline or character change you just don't like (ie, Hall into Parallax). Even if it's a bad one.
It's supposed to be a place to give the recounts of those so bad they're good or completely goofy and completely retconned out of existence almost immediately stories, most of which seem to come from DC.
Some of the more "classic" examples:
The issue of World's Finest where it was revealed that Bruce Wayne had a heretofore unseen retarded older brother who was institutionalized since childhood.
The issue of Flash wherein we learned that "Mopee" a Mr. Mxyzptlk-like sprite had caused the "magic lightning" that struck the chemicals that turned Barry into the Flash.
The issue of Superman wherein it was stated that Kryptonian lenses in Clark's glasses had "super hypnotism" effect, causing people to see Superman and Clark as two different people.
The issues of Marvel Team up that had Hercules tow, with REALLY BIG CHAINS, the island of Manhattan after a supervillain had made it float away (no mention of all the people who died when the subway tunnels and midtown tunnel flooded BTW).
Proceed.
Okay, I was gonna mention the recent portrayal of Jack Murdock as an abusive father who beats Matt so badly that blood flys through the air in DD: Father, but given those criteria, how bout Ghost Rider and the X-Men fighting the Brood in huge, cavernous tunnels beneath New Orleans?!
Along the same lines as Grimm's post, I've heard that Liefeld depicted skyscrapers in WASHINGTON, DC in issues of Youngblood. Yeesh. Do some research, dude.
The issue of Superman wherein it was stated that Kryptonian lenses in Clark's glasses had "super hypnotism" effect, causing people to see Superman and Clark as two different people.
I remember this one. I was a plot device designed to sort out why people didn't think Clark Kent and Superman were the same person - a pair of glasses not being an effective disguise. With the glasses on, Kent looked a lot older and frailer.
Another one: Green Lantern endeavours to move a planet with a giant set of tweezers, in GL#130 or therabouts. Tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and climatic disasters that would be a consequence of this do not seem to occur to him. (The task, however, does prove too big for him, and he gets zapped by previously unseen feedback.)
In an issue of World's Finest, Metallo has replaced his Kryptonian heart with a black hole. He is in the middle of torturing Superman with his newfound powers, when Batman, who is tied to a chair (instead of being kiled by Metallo's minions), leaps backwards jamming the chair into the computer which regulates the blackhole. Fortunately, instead of the black hole instantly expanding and consuming the Earth, it only consumes Metallo. Not too clever, Bruce.
Anyone else remember the issue of "Brave and Bold" written by Bob Haney and drawn by Jim Aparo, in which terrorists deduce the best way to kill Batman and Sgt. Rock is to kidnap Haney and Aparo and force them to write and draw our heroes being killed?
Or the issue of Batman from the 1970s (reprented in the recent "Neal Adams Batman" hardcover) in which Bruce Wayne had a cleaning woman...??!?
I have mentioned before the issue of World's Finest where Plastic Man is begging on the street, dressed as Santa, and Batman throws him a dime into his pot. "Poor Plas" thinks Batman, as he drives home to his billion dollar mansion.
Precisely. Even as a kid, I thought, "WTF? How about dropping the man a g-note, you cheap bastard?"
In Wolverine #51 or 52, Wolverine picks up the shape-changing Mystique in a bar, has sex with her, and then tells her that he knew it was her from her scent. WTF? Where did Wolverine bury his nose? Was the writer having a little joke?
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: Personally, I think the current version of the JSA is a gigantic WTF
Sorry, no.
PLease refer to my earlier post. This is not a thread to bitch about in continuity storylines you don't like. It's a thread to discuss the wacky, retconned (hopefully) stuff.
Another, big, WTF:
"The Super Sons" run in World's Finest in the 1970s. Teenaged sons of Superman and Batman who, according to the editors, were not a dream, not a hoax, not an imaginary story, but simply an heretounexplored aspect of our heroes' multi-faceted lives.
WTF?
Eventually, realizing that this facet should REMAIN unexplored, the writers and editor concocted ANOTHER WTF, explaining the sons away by stating they were a Fortress of Solitude computer simulation that Superman and Batman would sit around and watch for hours on end (yeah, that's MY idea of entertainment).
"The Super Sons" run in World's Finest in the 1970s. Teenaged sons of Superman and Batman who, according to the editors, were not a dream, not a hoax, not an imaginary story, but simply an heretounexplored aspect of our heroes' multi-faceted lives.
WTF?
Eventually, realizing that this facet should REMAIN unexplored, the writers and editor concocted ANOTHER WTF, explaining the sons away by stating they were a Fortress of Solitude computer simulation that Superman and Batman would sit around and watch for hours on end (yeah, that's MY idea of entertainment).
WTF?
Yep. I remember that one. Still have the issue of the latter. The sons found out they were creating all the disasters on Earth and simply jumped in a core of burning energy and that was that. Batman was crying at the end of the story...WTF? Indeed!!!
Quote: Dave said: In Wolverine #51 or 52, Wolverine picks up the shape-changing Mystique in a bar, has sex with her, and then tells her that he knew it was her from her scent. WTF? Where did Wolverine bury his nose? Was the writer having a little joke?
I don't get the wtf? about this. Are you saying Wolverine didn't have this ability at that time? I thought he always had an exceptionally strong sense of smell. I thought he is a feral mutant (claws, agility, speed, scent, etc.) with the added bonus of his healing ability (necessary because his claws extend from beneath his skin). Am I wrong?
Dave said: Precisely. Even as a kid, I thought, "WTF? How about dropping the man a g-note, you cheap bastard?"
In Wolverine #51 or 52, Wolverine picks up the shape-changing Mystique in a bar, has sex with her, and then tells her that he knew it was her from her scent. WTF? Where did Wolverine bury his nose? Was the writer having a little joke?
I should think it's fairly obvious where Wolverine buried his nose !
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: (Reposting this here, because the version I posted on the DCMBs got turned into a certain someone's own little vendetta thread.)
What are the lines, plot devices, situations put in a comic, or fan posts, that just made you think "WTF?!?"?
For me, it was reading so-called "spoilers" for JSA arcs where the poster leaked that Captain Marvel was either tricked or forced into yelling "SHAZAM!" in the middle of a battle.
Regarding the HOBGOBLIN LIVES 1-3 miniseries I mentioned above:
Even in lame form, It would be interesting to see how Stern himself (who created Hobgoblin, and built up the initial suspense and clues to his HG's identity) finally concluded the storyline.
I'd heard that Stern initially planned to conclude the storyline in AMAZING SPIDERMAN # 250, but was influenced to not reveal Hobgoblin's identity, and allow it to be further stretched for the sake of sales. The buildup from issue 238 (introducing the Hobgoblin) till 250 was one of the most engaging storylines in comics history.
It would be nice to see who Stern originally planned the Hobgoblin to be revealed as, but I'll bet that the new series didn't follow his original plans either.
Like how Kirby originally planned to end the New Gods in the early 70's, as compared to his god-awful later effort with HUNGER DOGS in 1985. It's impossible to re-create what was originally planned years ago, and do it the same way.
HUNGER DOGS was a big "WTF ?!?" disappointment as well.
Quote: the G-man said: The Spider-man arc where Doc Ock tried to marry Aunt May because she had inherited an island full of plutonium and a nuclear reactor.
WTF?
Heh. Yeah, that's kinda ludicrous, I agree, but I guess that was partly a carry-over from the whole naive attitude Aunt May had towards Doctor Octopus from the time they first met. He was such a "well-mannered gentleman," don't you know? Doc Ock seemed to appreciate May's attitude towards him as well.
ShazamGrrl1 said: (Reposting this here, because the version I posted on the DCMBs got turned into a certain someone's own little vendetta thread.)
What are the lines, plot devices, situations put in a comic, or fan posts, that just made you think "WTF?!?"?
For me, it was reading so-called "spoilers" for JSA arcs where the poster leaked that Captain Marvel was either tricked or forced into yelling "SHAZAM!" in the middle of a battle.
Next!
The initial post...
Consistent with Shazamgrrl's original post, I think that while ret-conned embarrassments are certainly interesting to discuss here, that Shazamgrrl's opening thesis for the topic is broad enough to include any comic book story that has blown your mind and made you say: WOAH !!!
That can be WTF in a bad way, WTF in a good way, WTF in a continuity way, or WTF in an embarassing ret-conned way.
Regarding WTF in a good way, I love JLI, and I know I'm not alone in that.
Giffen/DeMatteis' JUSTICE LEAGUE/JLI 1-60, ANNUALS 1-6, JUSTICE LEAGUE EUROPE 1-36, JUSTICE LEAGUE QUARTERLY 1-6, and various other specials and tie-ins, were consistently great WTF material, in a very good and fun way, from 1987-1992, or so.
One of my favorites is JLE # 6, where the JLE takes a french class and winds up in the same room with the Injustice Gang, leading to an inevitable showdown of bufoonery. Illustrated by Bart Sears.
And even more so in the wildly funny JLI ANNUAL 4, "Justice League Antarctica", where the JLI hires the Injustice Gang into the JLI, in an attempt to help them go straight, and stations them to "guard Antarctica" where their stupidity supposedly can't hurt anyone, which backfires miserably, with hilarious results. Illustrated by Mike McKone.
Or JLI 33-35, where Booster Gold and Blue Beetle set up a casino on the tropical island of Kooey Kooey Kooey, using JLI funds, with predictably disastrous results. Beautifully illustrated by Adam Hughes.
And JUSTICE LEAGUE 43 and 44 (1990), where a reporter named Tortellini plays poker with a bunch of supervillains and wins all their weapons in a poker game, then takes on the JLI, with predictably funny results. And again, more great Adam Hughes art.
The Power of SHAZAM! had several major WTF moments for me, not just in characterization, but some of the plot devices used in that series. Here's a list:
The "four year gap" between the GN and the series.
Shazam, rape victim? (remember, Shazam's supposed to be the father Superman's foes Blaze and Satannus)
The "Billy Batson - SuperTeen" (thanks, Marvelozzo) Adult-hero-kid's-brain version of Captain Marvel
Mary Batson spending half her time acting like a spoiled little rich-b!tch with a massive case of reverse PMS and the other half as a wimpy whiner. (In fact, the whole series had a lot of whiny characters, especially Billy and Freddy. Yeesh)
Freddy Freeman... cocky jock
Cap, Mary and Junior sharing the powers of Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles and Mercury.
Adult "Lady" Cap instead of young Mary Marvel, which switched the "family" dynamic from big brother - little "brother" - little sister to Father - Mother - Son. This was caused by an implied "mystical incest" between Cap and Mary that "give birth" to a Junior that flailed and squirmed like a newborn when the lightning first struck him.
Dudley the drunk traitor (he "unintentionally" offered up Mary to be killed by a minor demon)
Tawky Tawny, Pooka. (according to Irish myth, Pookas are the most dangerous critters in the Faerie realm. I don't care how many times someone says "Pookas are playful and mischievious like Harvey", the fact remains that they ain't)
CM3 (the less said about this bit of "modernization", the better)
"CM3" punching Mary in the face... twice.
The Invasion of the New Gods (Cap and Mary using Mother Boxes to summon the magic lightning when, a few issues previous, Shazam told Cap that he didn't have to be at the Rock of Eternity for the World's "Mightiest" Mortal to change back into Billy)
The Starman and GirlFrenzy crossovers: "But - but I'm a hero!" (Cap) "Don - don't kill him!" (Mary)
Mary's "little girl" costume on a buxom, grown-up body that somehow turns from Marvel red to Vestal virgin white (flegh)
Billy, Mary, Freddy and the Bromfields all moving into Ebenezer Batson's house.
Quote: the G-man said: See, this is why I said we should stay away from "in continuity" stuff that a particular poster just doesn't like.
We might as well now start bitching about Hall into Parallax, Clark marrying Lois, the death of Jason Todd, the Spider-clone, etc.
The thread is now a gripe session.
But ShazamGrrl1 set the rules for what should be included in her initial post. What gives you the right to take it over and change the rules? The fact that you're a Republican?
Plus, it's not like threads on these boards never go off-topic or anything.
Quote: Snapman said: But ShazamGrrl1 set the rules for what should be included in her initial post. What gives you the right to take it over and change the rules?
I wouldn't say I'm changing the rules, more noting what will happen under ShazamGrrl's rules.
However, it should be noted that SG's original post was a reference to an earlier thread on the DCMBs which, as Dave the WB noted (#289002 - Wed Jun 23 2004 05:00 AM), was full of the kind of stuff I would prefer to discuss. So would I be changing the rules or returning to the original rules? (We conservatives do love "Rolling back the clock," or so liberals tell us)
However, if you guys want a thread that makes you all sound like the Comic Book Guy ("worst...storyline...ever") .... carry on...
Funny ret-conned-out embarassments, as well as in-continuity mind-blowers, and stuff that just makes you laugh at its goofiness, like the JLI/JLE stuff.
Narrowing the WTF nominees will take some of the fun out of it, and make for less posting here, and a much shorter topic.
More Stooges covers:
Some nice covers by Gulacy, that'll bring a smile to your face.
Nope I hear that is out of continuity as well...much like Darwyn Cooke's New Frontier. I think DC is liking Geoff John's Captain Marvel so I believe that is sticking.
I wouldn't repeat that tidbit on the DCMB Cap boards, PI. They're all convinced that MSoE will not only be in continuity, but that it will replace Ordway's. Not trying to be snarky, just letting you what they think over there.
I think it's going to be an outside continuity project, too, but you can't convince the "true believers" of that.
the G-man said: . Ah, NOW we're getting somewhere. . Anyone else remember the issue of "Brave and Bold" written by Bob Haney and drawn by Jim Aparo, in which terrorists deduce the best way to kill Batman and Sgt. Rock is to kidnap Haney and Aparo and force them to write and draw our heroes being killed?
Yeah, that was a WTF all right, G-man. From BRAVE & THE BOLD 124:
It was fun seeing Aparo's rendition of himself, writer Bob Haney, and B & B editor Murray Boltinoff.
This story was Bob Haney's own attempt in the same vein as other oddball stories where DC writers, artists and editors included themselves in stories. The first that I'm aware of was in BATMAN 237, "Night of the Reaper", by Dennis, O'Neil, Neal Adams and Dick Giordano (which will hopefully soon be out in a few months in a BATMAN ILLUSTRATED BY NEAL ADAMS, Vol 3 hardcover).
"Night of the Reaper" featured a whole bunch of DC creators from 1971 (Dennis O'Neil, Al Weiss, Gerry Conway and Berni Wrightson) at an annual Halloween parade hosted by then-big-time fan convention host Tom Fagan in Rutland, Vermont. Fagan also had a cameo in the story. My favorite part is where O'Neil is shown talking to a thuggish-looking big guy in a Thor costume, and Thor is saying to him: "So you're a comic book writer, huh? That's a stupid way to make a living." To which O'Neil responds: "Mind getting off my foot?"
There was a follow-up appearance of Berni Wrightson, Al Weiss and Gerry Conway in a Robin back-up feature in BATMAN 239. I found the idea in this story of writers and artists getting involved in a fist-fight rather unlikely. (story by Mike Friedrich, art by Rich Buckler. )
There was a reprise of this festival the following year in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 103 (in late 1972) , which I think included Gerry Conway and a few other creators. (by Len Wein, Dick Dillin and Dick Giordano)
Then there was a JLA/JSA crossover in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 123 and 124, that also included DC creators in the story, this time writers Elliot Maggin and Cary Bates, along with editor Julius Schwartz. To my knowledge, this was the first time our Earth was actually named as part of the DC Universe, which they dubbed "Earth Prime". (story by Bates and Maggin, art by Dillin and McLaughlin) ( This was within a few issues of when the JLA had visited the Quality Comics heroes on their world, where Doll Man, Black Condor, Phantom Lady, Uncle Sam and others were fighting on a parallel Earth where the Nazis won WW II, dubbed "Earth X". And in another story of the same period, the Shazam heroes had been established to live in the parallel universe of "Earth S". So the parallel DC worlds were growing by leaps and bounds. )
There was also an hilarious New Teen Titans back-up story where Marv Wolfman and George Perez get kidnapped by a mad scientist as part of a plan to defeat the Titans, not to mention JLI #50.
As I recall, Bates was teleported to Earth 1 and became a supervillain so Maggin went after him or something. My favorite moment was where Green Arrow got all pissed off because he said Maggin was imitating him/mocking the psuedo hipster way he spoke, and Maggin said "no, no, you're imitating ME...I write your lingo based on my own speech pattern!"
My favorite part of JLA 123/124 is the scenes with Julius Schwartz complaining to Cary Bates and Elliot Maggin that they haven't got any original ideas, and to come up with something story-worthy.
Then Bates becomes this super-villain on Earth 2 (under mind control from the Wizard) and defeats the JSA, etc., etc.
And then when Bates came back from this wonderfully imaginative adventure, he didn't have the wits to remember it to write it down, and re-tell the story that he lived !!
For which editor Schwartz (in the story) chastises Bates as an unimaginative nit-wit or somesuch.
It's very funny self-deprecating humor on the part of writers Bates and Maggin.
I always thought Julius Schwartz was a hard-nosed grouch after reading this story, and was very pleasantly surprised when I met him at the 1987 San Diego Comic Con, to see what a pleasant and soft-spoken guy he is.
Or was, until he recently passed away a month or two ago.
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: I always thought Julius Schwartz was a hard-nosed grouch after reading this story, and was very pleasantly surprised when I met him at the 1987 San Diego Comic Con, to see what a pleasant and soft-spoken guy he is. Or was, until he recently passed away a month or two ago.
I think writers saw him as a grouch because he actually EDITed their stories, forcing them to revise them, plug plot holes and pace them correctly.
We could use a few more editors like him today.
Instead of the starfuckers we now have, who seem to exist only to throw money at "big names" and lure them into exclusive contracts...under which they promptly lose all ability to tell a cohesively plotted, correctly paced story (Loeb and Bendis, I'm talking to YOU).
Yes, Schwartz was a very precise editor, with a lot of attention to detail.
I recall in one Schwartz interview that he was very proud of how his books never had any typos or mis-spellings, and that the frequency of such errors in books by other editors really annoyed him.
How 'bout editor Jack Schiff, who preceded Schwartz editing the BATMAN and DETECTIVE line in the 1950's and early 1960's, with some truly bad storytelling, taking Batman on all kinds of unlikely time-travel and science fiction adventures to other worlds.
Schiff also tried to create a pantheon of goofy supporting characters for Batman like Superman had under Mort Weisinger, such as Batwoman, Batgirl (the first one), Bat-hound, Bat-mite, etc, an endless array of unsightly Bat-suits for different missions and (my favorite... ) the Flying Batcave !!
Most of which has been mercifully forgotten from continuity in recent decades.
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said: . And Animalman #26. I guess some people saw that as a big WTF.
. But a fun one!
While I'm not a big Grant Morrison fan, I did like the writer's commentary on the state of comics through this story which goes through issues 20-26, where Animalman follows a murder to its source, the writer of the series !
Morrison (in this 1989 series) talks about, in the post-CRISIS era (1986-forward), the regrettable loss to readers of those infinite worlds of the pre-CRISIS DC Multiverse we all used to enjoy.
Through the character Psycho-Pirate (who has an odd connection to a supply of Silver Age comics that appear out of thin air) Morrison laments the lost sense of whimsey of Silver Age/pre-CRISIS comics, where virtually any type of comics adventure was possible. With cameo appearances by the Inferior Five, Jason's Quest, and a whole bunch of other long-forgotten 60's DC characters.
Morrison has them living in a "Limbo" town, waiting for new adventures to be scripted about them. And through the story, laments the turn toward dark steroid-pumped sadistic characters, that are perceived as more "realistic". ( I loved the Green Team, from FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL, trying to buy their way out of Limbo )
And I like the idea (however frequently used by others before Morrison) that these characters aren't gone forever, that they live on, every time someone reads their back issues. And that they can always be revived in a new appearance or series. I like Ultraman's uneasiness with the idea of being revived as a dark character, fondly remembering the lightness and fun of his earlier appearances ( ironic for Morrison to write this, if you read his JLA: EARTH 2 graphic novel, released in 2000, which had a particularly dark take on Ultraman and the Crime Syndicate. )
And in ANIMAL MAN issue 26, Morrison (writing himself into the story, talking to Animalman) explains his own writing style and ambitions for the series, in a story that's mostly talking heads, explaining as he injects fight scenes, violence, and shock elements, to keep the reader interested while he tells a story that would otherwise, in his estimation, not be interesting to readers.
The best story of the type Morrison told in these ANIMAL MAN issues is "Pictopia" by Alan Moore and Don Simpson, in ANYTHING GOES # 2.
Like the characters in these stories, I too feel alienated from the dark world that modern comics have become, and dislike having characters who were formerly charming and familiar old friends morphed into dark and threatening "realistic" new versions, that I no longer like or am comfortable with.
Moore and Morrison have both lamented this dark trend in these above stories, while simultaneously making a huge contribution to darkening the market in their other work.
Again: WTF ?!?
Moore said in a COMIC BOOK ARTIST magazine interview that his ABC line, particularly his TOM STRONG series, was an attempt to regain that upbeat heroism.
The "dark" comics by people like Moore, Morrison, Gaiman and (sometimes) Miller are dark only in the surface. They use the "darkness" as a vehicle to touch deeper topics, as opposed to the people that followed Moore and Miller, that wrote comics with a dark surface and nothing under it. People who read Watchmen and DKR and say "wow, how dark" are missing the real point of those comics.
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said: The "dark" comics by people like Moore, Morrison, Gaiman and (sometimes) Miller are dark only in the surface. They use the "darkness" as a vehicle to touch deeper topics, as opposed to the people that followed Moore and Miller, that wrote comics with a dark surface and nothing under it. People who read Watchmen and DKR and say "wow, how dark" are missing the real point of those comics.
Well, opinions vary on that.
I think the work of Moore, Morrison, Gaiman and Miller, even from the 80's, are pretty dark.
The stories of Moore and Miller are multi-layered, and have bright moments, and redeem themselves beyond their darkness by having something meaningful to say, but are still unmistakeably dark.
Rorschach in the WATCHMEN "The Abyss Gazes Also" chapter... I don't think there's a bright way to interpret that. Alan Moore in a COMICS JOURNAL interview (issue 138) said it depressed him deeply to crawl inside the mind of Rorschach to fully flesh out the character in this chapter.
And as I said on the previous page, Moore said in a COMIC BOOK ARTIST interview that himself and others had unwittingly brought about a Dark Age in comics with their 1980's work, and that he was attempting to bring back an optimism and upbeat heroism that had been lost, when he created new titles like TOM STRONG and other ABC titles.
CBA: But you were able to purge yourself pretty quick, right? You didn't write that many, maybe four or five Superman stories? Alan: And that was enough. Those were ones I wanted to write, but since then, most characters have changed so much that they no longer feel to me like the characters I knew. So, I wouldn't have that kind of nostalgic interest in those sort of characters anymore. At the time, I was also saying I didn't feel that if there was some strong political message I wanted to get over, probably super-hero comics were not the best place to do it. If I wanted to do stuff about the environment, that there didn't need to be a swamp monster there, for instance. When I did Brought to Light, about the CIA activities in World War II, that story would not have been greatly enhanced by a guy with his underwear outside his trousers, you know. And also, there did seem to be a rash of quite heavy, frankly depressing and overtly pretentious super-hero comics that came out in the wake of Watchmen, and I felt to some degree responsible for bringing in a fairly morbid Dark Age...
Miller's work, from RONIN forward, is deeply cynical, and arguably paranoid in its portrayal of government. DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, DARK KNIGHT STRIKES BACK, GIVE ME LIBERTY, SIN CITY, ELECKTRA:ASSASSIN and HARD BOILED being prime examples.
I could find a few stories in Gaiman's SANDMAN that are upbeat (issue 50 in particular) but mostly I just found it very somber and morose. I read the first four trades and scattered issues after, and fail to see what people rave about. It's not horrible, but it's far from the best I've seen in comics.
I personally despise Morrison's works, although there are a few Morrison stories I somewhat like conceptually, although I find his work likewise pretentious, and (Gaiman-like ) full of quickie references to literature characters without really fleshing them out in his stories beyond the slightest cameo-reference, so I constantly envision Morrison musing to himself (and Gaiman as well) : Ah, look how clever I am to know this ! I'm not impressed.
All that said, if I were to recommend to someone some of the best written and illustrated comic series of the last 40 years, I would name at the top of the list Moore's SWAMP THING, MIRACLEMAN, V FOR VENDETTA, WATCHMEN, and SUPERMAN: WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW.
And also Miller's DAREDEVIL, BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, and BATMAN: YEAR ONE.
Nothing by Morrison or Gaiman, despite some decent stories, would make my list though.
But because these above series are dark works, I have a much greater fondness for:
While I've re-read the Moore and Miller stuff many times, I've re-read these latter books and other series far more often. They're a heck of a lot more fun.
I'm impressed by the brilliance of Moore's and Miller's prose, and find that exciting as well.
But the humor, warmth and heroism of the latter series I listed are what I more often prefer.
I'd agree that the ones, as you say, Mxy, "who followed Moore and Miller" imitated the dark surface elements without replicating the enduring quality and complexity of Moore and Miller's 80's works. Which is why these 80's works are still regarded as the high-water mark of comics storytelling, and the works that have followed are regarded as pretentious, derivative, and inferior by comparison.
Possibly the biggest WTF ever in comics history, is both the story and surrounding circumstances of the death of Jean Grey in X-MEN 137, in 1980.
Phoenix, after killing the 6 billion asparagus people, by eating the star that kept their planet alive (X-MEN 135), was planned by writer Claremont to get a "psychic lobotomy" to reduce her powers and eliminate the threat of Dark Phoenix. The story for X-MEN 137 was completely written, pencilled, inked, and sent to the editor to go to press.
But at the last minute, then-editor-in-chief Jim Shooter read the story, pre-press, and said: No way Jean Grey lives! She killed 6 billion asparagus people, she can't be allowed to just go back to being Jean Grey. Or words to that effect.
But the issue was already planned to go out, so they (Claremont, Byrne and Austin) were instructed to re-do the five-page conclusion of X-MEN 137, and have Phoenix die. And as I recall, the book was two or three weeks late, but still came out, with much controversy.
Claremont had originally planned to have Scott Summers and Jean Grey marry and have children. So this "death" really screwed things up for Claremont's long-term planning of the series over the next three or four years.
Claremont finally brought his original ideas back into the series, despite Jean Grey's death, by having Jean and Scott's daughter (Rachel) "time-slip sideways" into Marvel continuity from an alternate reality where Scott and Jean still married and had their daughter. And she (Rachel) escaped armageddon in her world to take up residence in the Marvel universe (sometime during the Claremont/Sienkiewicz run of NEW MUTANTS).
I thought this was a fit of genius on Claremont's part ! He got to have his cake and eat it too, as far as exploring his original ideas for the X-men characters.
Claremont was apparently hugely pissed off at X-MEN editor Jim Salicrup for whatever glitch kept Shooter from knowing all along what was planned for Phoenix, and forcing the X-MEN creative team, at the absolute last minute, under tremendous deadline pressure, to come up with an alternate ending. Salicrup was soon replaced by Louise Jones as editor of the X-titles.
The original ending for X-MEN 137 finally saw print in 1983/1984 in a one-shot Baxter book, PHOENIX: THE UNTOLD STORY.
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said:I think the work of Moore, Morrison, Gaiman and Miller, even from the 80's, are pretty dark.
I never denied they were dark, all I said is it wasn't darkness for the sake of darkness. The darkness serves the story and is there for a purpose.
Quote: The stories of Moore and Miller are multi-layered, and have bright moments, and redeem themselves beyond their darkness by having something meaningful to say
As do Morrison and Gaiman, in spite of the fact that you don't like their work.
Quote: And as I said on the previous page, Moore said in a COMIC BOOK ARTIST interview that himself and others had unwittingly brought about a Dark Age in comics with their 1980's work, and that he was attempting to bring back an optimism and upbeat heroism that had been lost, when he created new titles like TOM STRONG and other ABC titles.
Exactly, but the dark comics trend was born from the misinterpretation of Moore and Miller's work: as I said before, people ignored the message and stayed with the darkness because it was "cool". I think comics today would be different if writers had imitated the other aspect of those comics instead.
I think we're more in agreement than in disagreement, Not-Mxy.
Except that you have a more favorable opinion of Gaiman and Morrison, and I obviously don't. But that's just preference.
Quote:
I'm Not Mr Mxypltk said: .
Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said . And as I said on the previous page, Moore said in a COMIC BOOK ARTIST interview that himself and others had unwittingly brought about a Dark Age in comics with their 1980's work, and that he was attempting to bring back an optimism and upbeat heroism that had been lost, when he created new titles like TOM STRONG and other ABC titles.
. Exactly, but the dark comics trend was born from the misinterpretation of Moore and Miller's work: as I said before, people ignored the message and stayed with the darkness because it was "cool". I think comics today would be different if writers had imitated the other aspect of those comics instead.
But that would require work on the part of modern creators! And talent ! I agree that exploiting the most surface elements of Moore and Miller's work is what's occurring, and has been for 20 years. And that's for the precise reason that it's easy.
I dislike, not only in the comics field, but in movies, television, music, and pretty much every entertainment form, that publishers, etc., don't even try for originality. They try to find what they perceive as the ONE magic formula of "what sells", and when they think they have it, they machine-stamp a billion imitations of it. And worst of all, when they do find people with original ideas and talent, they still want the talented material to be re-packaged into "what sells".
I miss the 70's and early 80's period, and prior, where there was also a fair amount of cloning of that era's perceived "what sells", but at the same time publishers were not afraid to put something completely new out there.
For that matter, I wonder if even Alan Moore's SWAMP THING, if it were first presented in the modern era, would last 6 issues. Even at its peak, despite almost immediate critical acclaim, Moore's SWAMP THING was at best a moderate seller.
But DC believed in the book and promoted it hard with house ads in all their books, to the point that it had a chance to become a moderate seller, enough to keep it on the stands.
Whereas books before it (like Adams' STRANGE ADVENTURES/Deadman, like Kubert's STAR SPANGLED/Enemy Ace, like Kirby's NEW GODS and FOREVER PEOPLE, like McGregor/Russell's AMAZING ADVENTURES/Killraven ) were cancelled relatively quickly when they couldn't build the desired level of sales.
Which is a WTF of some sort, to have prematurely ended these great series, without giving them more of a chance. Kirby's NEW GODS more than any other, cried out for completion. And I don't mean tragic HUNGER DOGS-style, half-heartedly and 13 years after the magic was gone.
In Brave and Bold Number 115, "The Corpse that Wouldn't Die," Batman was shot, put in a coma and the Atom animated his comatose body by running around his brain and jumping on the correct neurons.
Eventually Batman got better, which Atom deduced was the result of him stimulating Bat's brain activity with all his hopping about.
Yeah, I remember reading that BRAVE & THE BOLD 115 story when I was about 11 years old.
Even at that age, it seemed implausible to me, Atom running around Batman's brain, pressing on different motor-centers of the brain to make him move, like a giant comatose marionette. But it was a fun story, and I took it in stride.
Did you read the story in BATMAN 260, with the Joker? (February 1975, story by Dennis O'Neil, art by Irv Novick and Dick Giordano)
The Joker sprays a gas that causes Batman to laugh uncontrollably in odd situations, such as viewing a corpse at a funeral. Which causes Batman to double over with laughter each time, unable to fight, when the Joker tells Batman sick, morose, or just plain stupid and unfunny jokes.
A doctor injects Batman at the end of the story with a cure to Joker's poison, and asks Batman:
DOCTOR:"How were you able to overcome the serum last night and save my life?" BATMAN: "Simple Doctor. I reasoned that the drug caused me to laugh when I was confronted by horror... death... violence ! Therefore, I theorized that something genuinely funny would affect me the opposite way. So [while fighting the Joker ] I simply concentrated on the funniest scenes from all the Marx Brothers pictures."
You can almost hear Batman saying this in an Adam West voice.
the G-man said: Uh...actually...I liked that Joker story with Batman thinking about the Marx Brothers ....
Well, I liked it too, but I found this particular part of the story a little goofy. I thought the scene where Bruce Wayne started laughing uncontrollably at the funeral was creepy and well done.
And I enjoyed O'Neil's stories for THE JOKER comic book series, which began about 6 months after this story in BATMAN 260 was published. Here's a link to a topic where the JOKER comic was discussed:
I don't know if you saw me post it earlier, but the Dennis O'Neil runs in BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS from 1970-1975 are my favorite era of Batman stories. That's roughly BATMAN 216-266, and more scattered scripts in DETECTIVE COMICS 395-481. When O'Neil wasn't scripting, Frank Robbins usually was, and I found Robbins' stories equally enjoyable. Particularly the Man-Bat stories in DETECTIVE 400, 402, 407, 429 and others. Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, and Archie Goodwin also gave a similar consistency to the character.
We're ripping a lot in this topic on Bob Haney, but I enjoy his B & B stories too. Especially from issues 79 to about 130.
But whether with pencils by Neal Adams,Irv Novick, Bob Brown, Jim Aparo, Dick Giordano or whoever, these were great issues, and O'Neil for my money had his finger on the pulse of exactly what Batman is about. BATMAN was portrayed as an intelligent and relentless detective, lurking in the shadows, waiting for the perfect moment to strike. And in addition to being a master detective, he was a master of diplomacy, who played well with others, instead of the driven, tormented intimidating jerk, who is now much more abrasive and confrontational, as he's mostly been portrayed for the last 15-20 years.
After his BATMAN and DETECTIVE runs, O'Neil also did some good stories with Michael Golden and others, in BATMAN FAMILY from 1977-1980.
Englehart and Goodwin also turned in some classic stories during that era.
In each case, they demonstrated that it was possible to have a Batman who was grim and obsessed without being a nasty psycho. They also made sure that Batman was as much "the World's Greatest Detective," not just "the worlds' greatest leg breaker who gets a lot of info from Oracle."
Quote: I thought the scene where Bruce Wayne started laughing uncontrollably at the funeral was creepy and well done.
How about this great story from BATMAN 217 (Story by Frank Robbins, art by Irv Novick and Dick Giordano. Cover below by Neal Adams)
This is the story where Dick Grayson finally graduates high school and goes to college.
It only took the kid 30 years to graduate high school !
It was reprinted recently in the BATMAN IN THE 60'S trade.
BATMAN 217 (Jan 1970) and DETECTIVE 395 (December 1969) were the official end of the "camp" Batman, and the official beginning of the return to the creature-of-the-night Batman. So dumping Robin was something of a necessity.
Someone brought this up on the 'favorite cover' thread and this is definitely one of the biggest WTF's in Marvel history:
The 9/11 tribute issue of Spider-man that had Dr. Doom crying over the victims of September 11.
Sorry, people...uh...uh...no goddam way.
When it comes to terrorism and murder, including his own subjects, bin Laden is a piker comparied to Victor Von Doom.
If anything, Doom's reaction to Sept 11 would have been along these lines:
Quote: Bah...the nation of dogs that houses the accursed Richards shows its weakness...that they could not defend against even a lesser villain as bin Laden is nothing to Doom.
Nah, I never saw Doom like that. He's evil, but he does have some code of honor. He always struck me as the type that would try to limit civilian casualties. The WTF there was MAGNETO standing there crying. Um... no way. Bullshit. He's the mutant Osama.
Actually, the way you feel about Doom is the way I feel about Magneto(and the way he's been written most of the time, in my opinion). He's one of the more sympathetic villains. Ultimate Magneto, however, is a different story. He's the mutant Osama.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Mysterio supposedly died in kevin Smith's Daredevil, but for month's after he was in that free anti-drug comic in all the Marvel books..and then i think he immediately appeared in a Spider-man title......Talk about crushing a pretty good story and death...hah..
Quote: King Snarf said: Nah, I never saw Doom like that. He's evil, but he does have some code of honor. He always struck me as the type that would try to limit civilian casualties.
I agree that Doom would not gratuitously kill someone. However: (a) what you and I would consider "gratuitous," Doom might very well consider "necessary;" (b) Just because Doom is not so inclined himself to engage in bin Laden like behavior doesn't mean he'd give a damn about bin Laden killing 3000 Americans. As Waid pointed out in his recent FF arc, Doom considers America beneath contempt.
Anyone remember Professor Xavier professing his undying secret/forbidden love for Jean Grey?
Quote:
From X-MEN issue 3, page 4, panel 6: . [ XAVIER, in thought baloon: ] . "Don't worry" ! As though I could help worrying about the one I love. But I can never tell her! I have no right! Not while I'm leader of the X-men, and confined to this wheel chair!
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: Anyone remember Professor Xavier professing his undying secret/forbidden love for Jean Grey?
Quote: From X-MEN issue 3, page 4, panel 6: . [ XAVIER, in thought baloon: ] . "Don't worry" ! As though I could help worrying about the one I love. But I can never tell her! I have no right! Not while I'm leader of the X-men, and confined to this wheel chair!
Never to be mentioned again !
...until X-men #53, in which Onslaught takes Jean through a little psychic magical mystery tour and Onslaught reveals that scene to Jean. It was made to seem like Onslaughts influence, but this happened years before Onslaught began to manifest.
Back in those early days of X-MEN, Jean Grey was lusted after by all of the X-Men, including Professor Xavier. Seems strange to think of it now, but for some reason it apparently didn't seem that weird back then, judging from the letter columns of the time.
There are several WTFs between the manga and anime versions of Inu-Yasha. Starting with the most recent, the story of the Sage and the human-faced peaches appeared in volume nine of the tpbs, just before Sango's first appearance in the manga. In the anime version, Kagome and Sango ask for three days away from the quest; Kagome for her exams and Sango to fix Hiraikotsu, which was cracked in a previous battle.
...the car putting along in the background, as the Black Racer sweeps into action, is a Model T ! Not exactly a current photo Kirby used to make this photo-collage cover.
I like the aspect of the Black Racer (from issue 3, that introduces him) that he is an amalgam of individuals who are quadraplegic, and even virtual vegetables. People who are helpless, powerless, who in contast to previously not even having power to move their own bodies, are given near-omnipotent power by becoming the Black Racer.
In Black Racer's later appearance in NEW GODS 11, he has developed into a role similar to a Valkyrie from Norse mythology, or an angel of death, who takes away individuals in combat at the moment of their death.
I think the NEW GODS 11 cover was possibly the best of the series, and a terrific story: http://fullsize.11.GIF
I just wish Kirby could have continued this series for a few more issues, and brought this battle to its epic conclusion in 1972.
Despite the concept of the character and his power being great and coming from the combined consciousness of many helpless people, Black Racer's costume is really goofy, I think. It looks like something assembled from leftover items at a thrift store. The only other Kirby costume that matches Black Racer's in sheer goofiness is that of Flippa-Dippa in Kirby's JIMMY OLSEN issues.
Bob Layton did a great 4-issue HERCULES miniseries in 1982, where he re-invented Hercules as a pompous braggart telling tall tales of his own greatness. Very funny.
As scripted by Layton, Hercules began referring to a thing he termed "The Gift". "The Gift" is the honor Hercules bestows on someone by engaging them in combat. So in other words, "The Gift" is the honor of getting your ass kicked by Hercules !
Another good Hercules story by Layton was a fill-in issue of THOR during Simonson's run in 1985, in THOR 356. Scripted by Bob Harras, pencilled by Jackson Guice, and inked by Bob Layton. Where Hercules, in braggart fashion, tells a rather convoluted self-aggrandizing version of a battle he had with Thor.
Especially compared to the other collected reprint books of Moebius' work. While designed with such a sophisticated look, the cover is so... well... phallic !
One of the in-continuity embarrassments that G-man likes:
JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 113 (October 1974) by Len Wein, Dick Dillin and Dick Giordano.
A gigantic earthquake threatens to bring disaster on the New York coastline, and opens a gigantic fissure just off shore on the ocean floor, threatening to spread and destroy the region.
Superman takes Wonder Woman's golden lasso, dives underwater, threads a giant makeshift needle, and stitches the two sides of the fissure together, pulls it tight to close the chasm, and saves the East coast !! ( No, really !! )
On the one hand, that sounds stupid and implausible, of course, but on the other, it reminds me of something that might be found in Greek mythology and tall tales, so it's kind of cool.
Remember when Superman got really old and split the future Earth in two, and all this really happened, as it wasn't an imaginary story? Now that was a WTF moment.
The Time Trust said: On the one hand, that sounds stupid and implausible, of course, but on the other, it reminds me of something that might be found in Greek mythology and tall tales, so it's kind of cool.
Remember when Superman got really old and split the future Earth in two, and all this really happened, as it wasn't an imaginary story? Now that was a WTF moment.
Yeah, I guess you're right, much of mythology is pretty implausible. Tall tales, like Paul Bunyan, are deliberately exaggerated for humor effect, but other mythology is expected to be taken seriously (or at least it was in the time of the ancient Norse, Celts, Greeks, Romans, etc. ) Greek mythology in particular has an abundance of adaptations in comic book form, mostly in superhero comics, so there's a definite parallel in their grand but unlikely adventures (comic book heroes, and heroes of ancient mythology).
I don't recall the Superman story you refer to. I was thinking of a story where Superman got really old in SUPERMAN 250 (1972), and another story in SUPERMAN 400 (1984).
But there are a lot of implausible/WTF Superman stories from the last 65-plus years, for sure.
"The Super Sons" run in World's Finest in the 1970s. Teenaged sons of Superman and Batman who, according to the editors, were not a dream, not a hoax, not an imaginary story, but simply an heretounexplored aspect of our heroes' multi-faceted lives.
WTF?
Eventually, realizing that this facet should REMAIN unexplored, the writers and editor concocted ANOTHER WTF, explaining the sons away by stating they were a Fortress of Solitude computer simulation that Superman and Batman would sit around and watch for hours on end (yeah, that's MY idea of entertainment).
WTF?
Yep. I remember that one. Still have the issue of the latter. The sons found out they were creating all the disasters on Earth and simply jumped in a core of burning energy and that was that. Batman was crying at the end of the story...WTF? Indeed!!!
I just read this story for the first time over the weekend, in WORLD'S FINEST 263 (July 1980, story by Dennis O'Neil, pencilled by Rich Buckler, inked by Dick Giordano ). I was surprised to see a story of this substandard quality from the pen of Dennis O'Neil. It didn't add any originality to the story that multiple panels of Buckler's art throughout were swiped from several Neal Adams BATMAN stories (particularly BATMAN issues 232, 243, 244 and 245, B & B 79, and possibly other Adams books I'm less familiar with) A bit corny, but still fun reading.
The end kind of reminded me of the last 10 minutes of Terminator 2: Judgement Day, where the Super-sons willingly go to their final fate.
The first "super-sons" story was in WORLDS FINEST 215, so this story vehicle lasted roughly 50 issues, although many issues in this run featured Batman and Superman without the super-sons.
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: I just read this story for the first time over the weekend, in WORLD'S FINEST 263 (July 1980, story by Dennis O'Neil, pencilled by Rich Buckler, inked by Dick Giordano ). I was surprised to see a story of this substandard quality from the pen of Dennis O'Neil. It didn't add any originality to the story that multiple panels throughout the story were swiped from several Neal Adams BATMAN stories (particularly BATMAN issues 232, 243, 244 and 245, B & B 79, and possibly other Adams stories I'm less familiar with) It's a bit corny, but still fun reading.
Let me guess: the artist was Rich Buckler. Buckler made his career out of swiping from (ie, copying drawings by) Adams and a few other artists.
Is that maybe a term for bringing back the DC Multiple Earths, after the CRISIS series compressed them down to a single universe? Maybe it's the same concept as "hypertime".
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said: I just read this story for the first time over the weekend, in WORLD'S FINEST 263 (July 1980, story by Dennis O'Neil, pencilled by Rich Buckler, inked by Dick Giordano ). I was surprised to see a story of this substandard quality from the pen of Dennis O'Neil. It didn't add any originality to the story that multiple panels throughout were swiped from several Neal Adams BATMAN stories (particularly BATMAN issues 232, 243, 244 and 245, B & B 79, and possibly other Adams books I'm less familiar with) A bit corny, but still fun reading.
Let me guess: the artist was Rich Buckler. Buckler made his career out of swiping from (ie, copying drawings by) Adams and a few other artists.
Yeah, Buckler was the big Kirby clone when he first went to Marvel around 1973, and started doing FANTASTIC FOUR, THOR, JUNGLE ACTION, and fill-in issues on other series like INHUMANS, AMAZING ADVENTURES, and others for Marvel (circa 1973-1976).
Buckler started as an Adams clone in 1970 with a story in HOUSE OF SECRETS 90, pencilled by Buckler and inked by Adams, which helped Buckler make his first DC sale. Buckler did Robin backups in BATMAN 239-242, and "Rose and the Thorn" in LOIS LANE (circa 1971-1972) before crossing over to Marvel for a few years, primarily to do FF and THOR.
In one issue of FF, Buckler accidentally drew an extra hand on an overstretched Mr Fantastic, where a foot should have been (this is shown in the MARVEL NO-PRIZE BOOK from 1982, which is a treasure-trove of WTF's up to that point in Marvel history).
Moench and Buckler also created Deathlok in ASTONISHING TALES 25-33, which is an intelligent and original series, where Buckler for a time broke out of Kirby mode to show his own unique style.
When Buckler went back to DC in late 1976, his first few SECRET SOCIETY OF SUPERVILLAINS stories (issues 5-9) were more in the Kirby style. Then Buckler went into Neal Adams clone overdrive. This is actually some of Buckler's best and most detailed work, in SSOSV 5-9, BATMAN 265 and 297, TIMEWARP # 1, DC SPECIAL 27, JLA 188-191 and 210-212, JONAH HEX 11, a few Shazam issues of DC COMICS PRESENTS, and primarily WORLD'S FINEST, where he had a long run in scattered issues from 257-286. And ALL-STAR SQUADRON 1-5.
Buckler clearly loves comics, and I think he got a kick out of morphing frequently into the styles of the artists he enjoyed from that era. A fanboy turned pro, perhaps the Rob Liefeld of the 70's.
But Buckler has done a lot of work I've enjoyed, despite how much he's borrowed from other artists.
I think the only artist who has swiped as much from other artists as Rich Buckler is Keith Giffen. Giffen was a Kirby clone in the 1970's on DEFENDERS, CLAW, AMAZING ADVENTURES and other titles. But even during Giffen's best work in LEGION 285-306 (1982-1984), and LEGION 1-5 (1984 series), he was still swiping other artists, primarily Druillet panels from LONE SLONE/DILIRIUS.
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: "decompressed storytelling"?
Is that maybe a term for bringing back the DC Multiple Earths, after the CRISIS series compressed them down to a single universe? Maybe it's the same concept as "hypertime".
I thought it was the tendency to stretch a story out in order to fit it in a trade paperback.
In SUPERMAN #271, Superman is taking on Brainiac, and throughout the battle, Brainiac is calling Superman a bunch of really weird names beginning with the word "old", including (I swear I'm taking these right from the comic, word for word):
"Old Cigarette Smoke"
"Old Father Of Modern Gardening"
"Old Paleolithic Cavern"
"Old Ohio College Town"
"Old 19th Century Jurist"
Seriously...of all the WTF's mentioned so far, this has gotta make the Top 5 list.
And the twist (revealed several months later in the letter column) that each was a clue to a famous person, place or thing named either "Clark" or "Kent."
Here's a WTF for ya: Anyone remember Lex Luthor II? Long-haired, bearded, AUSTRALIAN Lex Luthor? I remember reading the Death of Superman after not reading DC comics for a while and I was like "The hell?"
Has anyone around here mentioned Marvel's GA hero, The Whizzer? A guy in a yellow costume and winged headpiece who gains superspeed from an injection of mongoose blood. That's right - mongoose blood.
Speaking of Marvel, the fact that Dr. Spectrum has his own series also goes on here.
Quote: I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said: I think the biggest WTF is comic is that time Fawcett made a shameless Superman ripoff in the 40's. Good thing a judge settled the whole thing!
[sarcasm]Yeah, and an even bigger WTF is that DC turned around, ripped off Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Junior and renamed them Supergirl and Superboy.[/sarcasm]
Nope. Mary & Junior came years before Superboy and Girl. Junior was created in 1941 and Mary in 1942. Superboy first saw publication in 1945, and Supergirl in 1954.
And it's really weird that DC didn't go after Fawcett over Captain Marvel 'til Cap started out-selling Supes. DC started amping Supes' powers up because of Cap's popularity.:p
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: [sarcasm]Yeah, and an even bigger WTF is that DC turned around, ripped off Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Junior and renamed them Supergirl and Superboy.[/sarcasm]
If you say "Yeah, and an even bigger WTF is that DC turned around, ripped off Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Junior and renamed them Supergirl and Superboy" sarcastically, what you actually mean is "Supergirl and Superboy are not Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr ripoffs". Since that would be the smart thing to say and you're a Captain Marvel fan, I don't think you actually meant that, did you? No, I think you meant the opposite ("Supergirl and Superboy are Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr ripoffs") but, somehow, you managed to fuck up something as simple as the use of sarcasm and ended up saying what you said.
Quote: Darknight613 said: Has anyone around here mentioned Marvel's GA hero, The Whizzer? A guy in a yellow costume and winged headpiece who gains superspeed from an injection of mongoose blood. That's right - mongoose blood.
His costume is yellow, he runs really fast, and his name is The Whizzer. You figure it out.
Quote: King Snarf said: Here's a WTF for ya: Anyone remember Lex Luthor II? Long-haired, bearded, AUSTRALIAN Lex Luthor? I remember reading the Death of Superman after not reading DC comics for a while and I was like "The hell?"
I thought that was totally bizarre at the time. Didn't he date Supergirl as well?
Quote: Darknight613 said: Has anyone around here mentioned Marvel's GA hero, The Whizzer? A guy in a yellow costume and winged headpiece who gains superspeed from an injection of mongoose blood. That's right - mongoose blood.
His costume is yellow, he runs really fast, and his name is The Whizzer. You figure it out.
What's there to figure out? He's a lame Flash ripoff with the most idiotic origin in comics' history. A mongoose is a member of the weasel family. How the bloody hell can weasel blood give someone super-speed?
Quote: the G-man said: Yeah, I remember that story.
And the twist (revealed several months later in the letter column) that each was a clue to a famous person, place or thing named either "Clark" or "Kent."
That wily Brainiac. No one gets his humour.
There was an issue of Batman where Captain Boomerang has captured Batman, doesn't unmask him, doesn't shoot him or drug him, but instead ties him with rope to a giant boomerang with a rocket on it, which launches itself into the sky and explodes, to Boomerang's delight. Of course, Batman has burned the rope in the jet flame (without burning his hands off) and leapt to safety while Boomerang wasn't looking. Good thing Boomerang didn't use chains.
This story reminds me of that bit in Austin Powers, where Scott Evil is giving Dr Evil grief for simply not shooting Austin Powers.
Quote: the G-man said: Yeah, I remember that story.
And the twist (revealed several months later in the letter column) that each was a clue to a famous person, place or thing named either "Clark" or "Kent."
That wily Brainiac. No one gets his humour.
There was an issue of Batman where Captain Boomerang has captured Batman, doesn't unmask him, doesn't shoot him or drug him, but instead ties him with rope to a giant boomerang with a rocket on it, which launches itself into the sky and explodes, to Boomerang's delight. Of course, Batman has burned the rope in the jet flame (without burning his hands off) and leapt to safety while Boomerang wasn't looking. Good thing Boomerang didn't use chains.
If you're ragging on the "elaborate death trap as opposed to just shooting or unmasking the hero" scenario, what was it about this story that made it stand above the rest?
Quote: King Snarf said: Here's a WTF for ya: Anyone remember Lex Luthor II? Long-haired, bearded, AUSTRALIAN Lex Luthor? I remember reading the Death of Superman after not reading DC comics for a while and I was like "The hell?"
I thought that was totally bizarre at the time. Didn't he date Supergirl as well?
Yes. And he referred to her as "luv" and every guy as "mate". Very disconcerting.
Quote: Darknight613 said: What's there to figure out? He's a lame Flash ripoff with the most idiotic origin in comics' history. A mongoose is a member of the weasel family. How the bloody hell can weasel blood give someone super-speed?
Well, I think it was irradiated mongoose blood, at least.
I guess it was the absurdity of the reality of the entire situation. Here you have a guy who has bought a rocket, built himself a big boomerang out of steel with enough aerodynamic design to enable it to fly rather than just blow up, wheeled this boomerang out of hiding, captured Batman....and he just ties him to the boomerang. All of that extraordinary effort, and then this happens.
Its probably no more absurd than any of the other silly deathtraps over the years... but even as a kid, I just thought this was ridiculous.
Quote: Darknight613 said:
Quote: Grimm said:
Quote: Darknight613 said: Has anyone around here mentioned Marvel's GA hero, The Whizzer? A guy in a yellow costume and winged headpiece who gains superspeed from an injection of mongoose blood. That's right - mongoose blood.
His costume is yellow, he runs really fast, and his name is The Whizzer. You figure it out.
What's there to figure out? He's a lame Flash ripoff with the most idiotic origin in comics' history. A mongoose is a member of the weasel family. How the bloody hell can weasel blood give someone super-speed?
Wasn't there a comedian 20-30 years ago who did a bit where all the Batman villains got together for a conference and one of them said "guys, here's an idea: the next time one of us captures Batman...JUST SHOOT HIM?"
Shazamgrrl said: Nope. Mary & Junior came years before Superboy and Girl. Junior was created in 1941 and Mary in 1942. Superboy first saw publication in 1945, and Supergirl in 1954. . And it's really weird that DC didn't go after Fawcett over Captain Marvel 'til Cap started out-selling Supes. DC started amping Supes' powers up because of Cap's popularity.:p
This is true. DC sued Fawcett and drove Fawcett out of business with litigation after several years in 1953.
And then, ironically, DC bought the rights to the Marvel Family characters, and brought them back in DC's new SHAZAM series in 1973, and added the Shazam universe to DC's continuity as "Earth S".
I've always thought of MIRACLEMAN as a WTF/through-a-mirror-darkly version of the Shazam characters.
Kid Miracleman is a darker version of Black Adam, who slaughters whole cities for his sadistic pleasure (MIRACLEMAN issues 2, 3, and 14-15).
Emil Gargunza is a darker retread of Dr Sivana, who (in the Miracleman version) was sexually raped as a child, then killed his rapist and took over the rapist's crime operation (MIRACLEMAN 5).
Miraclewoman is a darker version of Mary Marvel, who was molested by her creator Emil Gargunza (by another name Dr Sivana), and as I recall Gargunza sexually molested Miracleman and Kid Miracleman too.
And then the crowning achievement of Moore's MIRACLEMAN run, incest between Miracleman and Miraclewoman in issue 16, because in their superhuman utopia, they deem themselves above being human, and thus above human laws of morality. Which basically equates to Captain Marvel shacking Mary Marvel.
I enjoyed the first 7 issues by Moore immensely, some of the best written stories in comics history. Before Moore went off the deep end with increasing moroseness and shock value.
Here's a WTF for you. The Batman Strikes! #3. In the very first panel, Alfred is singing "Hey Ya." Okay, who on the editorial staff decided that "Ultimate" Alfred was a hip-hop fan?
Quote: Chris Oakley said: Here's a WTF for you. The Batman Strikes! #3. In the very first panel, Alfred is singing "Hey Ya." Okay, who on the editorial staff decided that "Ultimate" Alfred was a hip-hop fan?
If Batman ever gets an Ultimate-style title, Alfred would become Andre 3000.
The Miracleman / Miraclewoman incest thing is a bit disturbing, isn't it?
Quote: Steve T said:
Quote: King Snarf said:
Yes. And he referred to her as "luv" and every guy as "mate". Very disconcerting.
And not a single use of "sheila" or "rack off"
Cor blimey, cobber.
I have to say that I have thought "WTF?" for some of Captain Boomerang's dialogue over the years, and especially in Ostrander's Suicide Squad. Australians do tend to pepper their dialogue with Australian colloquialisms, but its not as constant as Boomerang's speech. Sometimes I just didn't understand him at all.
I know absolutely nothing about SUICIDE SQUAD. I know it was published by DC in the late-80's/early-90's, in the same period as JUSTICE LEAGUE/JUSTICE LEAGUE INTERNATIONAL and JUSTICE LEAGUE EUROPE ( the JLI and JLE series I love and highly recommend, as I said several pages back in the topic. WTF in a very good way ! )
Any issues you'd recommend to sample SUICIDE SQUAD ?
Also, I'm amazed how little anyone has to say about MIRACLEMAN.
Another aspect of MIRACLEMAN that's WTF is that it was originally MARVELMAN when it appeared one chapter per month in WARRIOR magazine in Britain, from 1981-1982, in the first 15 or so issues (V FOR VENDETTA was also serialized in these same issues of WARRIOR). When Eclipse Comics first announced that MARVELMAN would be published in the U.S. in 1985, Marvel threatened legal action if it was published as MARVELMAN.
Hence the name change to MIRACLEMAN.
I loved Alan Moore's editorial in the first issue, that if in a few years another company came along called Miracle Comics and sued over the name MIRACLEMAN, they'd continue publishing it as MACKERALMAN, if it came to that. The first 6 MIRACLEMAN issues reprint the serialized stories from WARRIOR (printed for the first time in color). Both the Marvelman and V For Vendetta series were abruptly abandoned by Moore, mid-story, before their conclusion, when Alan Moore was offered a job in 1983 writing SWAMP THING for DC. And both series (Marvelman and V For Vendetta) were later concluded when reprinted in the U.S., with new material added to conclude each series.
The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF.
I wonder if we'll ever get past that Gaiman/McFarlane acrimony, and see new trades of these stories.
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: I know absolutely nothing about SUICIDE SQUAD. I know it was published by DC in the late-80's/early-90's, in the same period as JUSTICE LEAGUE/JUSTICE LEAGUE INTERNATIONAL and JUSTICE LEAGUE EUROPE (the latter series which I love and highly recommend, as I said several pages back in the topic. WTF in a very good way ! )
Any issues you'd recommend to sample SUICIDE SQUAD ?
The Ostrander series was a spin off from Legends.Its a villain book: a secret government program allows villains to be released from jail if they successfully complete a mission. To ensure they don't run away mid-job, they have explosive bracelets fitted to their wrists.
The series notable for the most profound and subtle character change in the lead protagonist, Amanda Waller, as the issues progress.
It ultimately became an espionage book, dropping all costumes for about 12 issues, and it finally died at about issue 58 or 60.
Great book, ceertainly ahead of its time when you read and compare contemporary titles like Queen & Country and The Losers.
Quote:
Also, I'm amazed how little anyone has to say about MIRACLEMAN.
Another aspect of MIRACLEMAN that's WTF is that it was originally MARVELMAN when it appeared one chapter per month in WARRIOR magazine in Britain, from 1981-1982, in the first 15 or so issues (V FOR VENDETTA was also serialized in WARRIOR). When Eclipse Comics first announced that MARVELMAN would be published in the U.S. in 1985, Marvel threatened legal action if it was published as MARVELMAN. Hence the name change to MIRACLEMAN.
I loved Alan Moore's editorial in the first issue, that if in a few years a company came along called Miracle Comics and sued over the name Miracleman, they'd continue publishing it as MACKERALMAN, if it came to that. The first 6 MIRACLEMAN issues reprint the serialized stories from WARRIOR (printed for the first time in color). Both the Marvelman and V For Vendetta series were abruptly abandoned by Moore, mid-story, before their conclusion, when Alan Moore was offered a job in 1983 writing SWAMP THING for DC. And both series (Marvelman and V For Vendetta) were later concluded when reprinted in the U.S., with new material to conclude the series.
The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF.
I wonder if we'll ever get past that acrimony and see new trades of these stories.
Eventually someone will win, or do a deal - its too valuable a property to leave lying about.
So far, here's my only comment about Miracleman: It was originally created and published because the reprints of Shazam that the company published way back when dried up due to *ahem* legal reasons. So Miracleman was created as a Shazam clone. Alan Moore took an obscure (by that time) character and brought new life to him.
This is from a book called "Kimota! The Miracleman Companion", published by TwoMorrows Publishing. Great book.
Quote: Joe Mama said: This is from a book called "Kimota! The Miracleman Companion", published by TwoMorrows Publishing. Great book.
Yes, I own it ! Good book.
Thanks also for your overview of SUICIDE SQUAD, Dave. It's on my list of books to check out (actually, it was on my list several years ago, but I forgot about it, back then.)
You'd also asked for a recommendation: I'd suggest simply starting at issue 1. I thought a cross over called The Janus Directive was really well done, but it requires you to read Checkmate! and Firestorm to follow what is happening. The very dramatic issue with Rick Flagg disposing of an old nuclear weapon in Qurac will probably appeal to you, Dave, because it has a flashback to the original WW2 Suicide Squad. I've read this issue many times. Its got an extremely unexpected twist in it.
There is some lighthearted entertainment in it: for about 6 months or so, someone is throwing cream pies at characters, and we don't know who. Lois Lane, Amanda Waller, Captain Boomerang, and others all get a cream pie in the face. Lois Lane's is probably the funniest.
Getting back to WTFs..... Giffen's JLI/JLE had a number. Kooey Kooey Kooey, the JL Antarctica and the killer penguins, G'nort.....
Heh heh, #36 and the Scarlet Skier makes me chuckle just to think about.
Quote: Dave said I have to say that I have thought "WTF?" for some of Captain Boomerang's dialogue over the years, and especially in Ostrander's Suicide Squad. Australians do tend to pepper their dialogue with Australian colloquialisms, but its not as constant as Boomerang's speech. Sometimes I just didn't understand him at all.
Bless em the American's try and do our dialogue. I love the way British people always call women "mum". I never called anyone mum other than my mother!
Quote: Dave the Wonder Boy said: The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF.
I wonder if we'll ever get past that Gaiman/McFarlane acrimony, and see new trades of these stories.
Apparently, the rights issue has finally been settled and Gaiman has the rights to the character again. I posted this in the "Miracleman" thread months ago, but here's the link to the story again:
I just read that the greatest WTF writer of all time, Bob Haney has died.
Haney, creator of Metamorpho and the Teen Titans, is also the writer responsible for some of my personal favorite "WTF"s over the years:
The Super-sons (teenaged sons of Superman and Batman who were later revealed to be computer simulations come to life);
Thomas Wayne, Jr, Batman's retarded brother, who was later possessed by Deadman;
The time that Atom brought a brain dead Batman back to life by jumping around in his brain;
The issue of Brave and Bold where terrorists decided the most efficient way to kill Batman would be to kidnap artist Jim Aparo, and force him draw Batman's death.
Seriously, I goof on these stories, but I always had a soft spot for them, and for Haney.
Dave the Wonder Boy said: The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF. . I wonder if we'll ever get past that Gaiman/McFarlane acrimony, and see new trades of these stories.
. Apparently, the rights issue has finally been settled and Gaiman has the rights to the character again. I posted this in the "Miracleman" thread months ago, but here's the link to the story again: . Miracleman . It may be a while before the stories are back in print, however.
Yeah, Snapman, thanks for linking your prior topic. Every time I hear they've reached a compromise, Todd McFarlane tosses another wrench in the machine.
I mean geez, if they want to haggle about new material, okay. But how hard is it for them to negotiate a re-release of the old stories in trades or hardcovers, and split the royalties 50/50 or 60/40 or whatever, and let a new generation of readers (and old ones) enjoy these books in collected form. McFarlane and Gaiman are both rich, so the money for reprints of this relatively obscure series are meaningless to either of them, relative to each's other creator-owned properties.
Another Shazam-related WTF that I really enjoyed was the "SHAZAM 1953 ANNUAL" facsimile edition, where DC asked "what if there'd been a 1953 SHAZAM ANNUAL?" and produced one as if it was a reproduction of one that had really been published, back in the day:
DC has done a number of similar reproductions, many of actual books, and many of books that never previously existed.
G-Man, I'm with you in having an enduring affection for Bob Haney's work.
Particularly BRAVE AND THE BOLD 79-130, when I was most eagerly picking up these issues in 1972-1976, the ones before 104 as back issues.
And the "Super-sons" in WORLD'S FINEST (I began reading with issues 211-235).
I'd forgotten about Haney's run with The Unknown Soldier series in STAR SPANGLED WAR, beginning in issue 150, with art by Joe Kubert. Also very enjoyable.
Chris Oakley said: Here's a WTF for you. The Batman Strikes! #3. In the very first panel, Alfred is singing "Hey Ya." Okay, who on the editorial staff decided that "Ultimate" Alfred was a hip-hop fan?
Among many WTF's in Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN, in issue 1, one of the "Sons of the Batman" deliberately and unnecessarily kills a cop. And for this ultimate transgression, Robin punishes him by assigning him to... "latrine duty" ?
A bit disproportionately mild for the crime, I'd say.
Quote: Miraclewoman is a darker version of Mary Marvel, who was molested by her creator Emil Gargunza (by another name Dr Sivana), and as I recall Gargunza sexually molested Miracleman and Kid Miracleman too.
And then the crowning achievement of Moore's MIRACLEMAN run, incest between Miracleman and Miraclewoman in issue 16, because in their superhuman utopia, they deem themselves above being human, and thus above human laws of morality. Which basically equates to Captain Marvel shacking Mary Marvel
Actually, in MM, he and and Miraclewoman were NOT brother and sister, so there was no incest.
However, did you ever read the novel "Superfolks"?
Here's one that I'm not sure has been mentioned. The New Titans #100. I was sooo looking forward to this 'cause Nightwing and Starfire were finally getting married. But much like a marriage on Monday Night Raw, there was a run-in to spoil things! Evil Lesbian Fetish Demon Raven showed up with Evil Changeling and some other Evil folks. And the worst part is that you'd think she'd attack when the priest says, "If anyone objects, let them speak now, or forever hold their peace", but no! Then Evil Raven makes out with Starfire and other stupid crap happens.
Quote: Snapman said: Do Golden Age stories count for WTF moments? I'm reading Shazam Archives Volume 1 and there's a couple of WTF moments right there.
Sure, Snapman. No comic, manga or creator is safe from WTF moments, so go for it!
...and the comparison of Elongated Man to Plastic Man reminded me of this cover:
( Click on image to enlarge )
I love the spaghetti-mess of elongated-power heroes around Superman.
Depending on the creative team, I love both Atom and Elongated Man.
Elongated Man in particular I've enjoyed by just about every creative team that has handled the character, at least up to 1992 or so. By Fox, Broome and Infantino in FLASH and DETECTIVE COMICS. And by Sekowsky in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA in the 60's, then by Wein, Bates, Conway, Giordano, Dillin, Novick and Garcia-Lopez in the 70's. And by Conway, Perez and others in the 80's, Among the best the Giffen, DeMatteis, Maguire, Sears and Hughes runs of JUSTICE LEAGUE/JLI and JLE from 1987-1992.
Likewise, ATOM was great under Gil Kane in the 60's. And as part of JLA in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
Then especially in the SWORD OF THE ATOM miniseries in 1983, and the continuation of that storyline in subsequent annuals. There was definitely some major sex going on in those issues.
And Gil Kane had a rather eye-catching new art style that debuted around the same time as that new SWORD OF THE ATOM miniseries.
I wonder if Bizarro JFK shot Bizarro Lee Harvey Oswald?
Bizarro President Lee Harvey Oswald ?!? Me am like !
Me also think a Marvel/DC crossover where green verbally challenged Hulk visit Bizarro Planet would am be great story.
Damn it's hard to talk like that for long !
I felt a number of the JLA characters Miller handled in DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN were wonderfully their old 70's/80's selves again, including the Atom appearance you mentioned.
I love that line Miller gave the Flash: "Kids. They don't know the difference between OLD and CLASSIC. "
I like Miller's rejection of the newer versions of the JLA characters, and his use of Hal Jordan and the rest, using the characters in a pre-CRISIS form he seems to prefer over those in the last 20 years or so of continuity. Which is something of a WTF for continuity wonks, but I prefer the old characters, so it works for me.
There's a scene from Amazing Spider-Man #76 (one of Stan Lee's stories), where Captain Stacy and Robbie are discussing Spider-Man and his reasons for keeping his identity a secret. Robbie says "If the public knew who he is...if he'd come out in the open...they'd be less suspicious! They might even start to trust him!"
For a smart guy and a seasoned reporter, Robbie sounds like a real idiot here. He's apparently forgotten that Spidey's fought a lot of criminals who would just LOVE to know who he is so they could attack him through his civilian identity (murder him in his home while he sleeps, kidnap or murder his loved ones, that sort of thing). How does it not occur to Robbie that Spidey's protecting his ID so that his loved ones can't be hurt?
Also, has he forgotten that the police don't trsut Spidey? What makes him think that the cops knowing Spidey's secret will prevent them from hauling his Spider-butt to jail?
Speaking of trust, what the hell makes Robbie think that people will trust Spider-Man if they know who he is?
Stan Lee scripts seemed to have a lot of people using rather absurd logic that dwarfs anything you'd find on our Deep Thoughts forum. But this tops them all.
Yeah, if his identity were revealed, the first person who'd probably try to kill Peter Parker would be J.Jonah Jameson. Our favorite irritable publisher orchestrated quite a few attacks on Spiderman without knowing his identity. And how much more so would Jameson want Parker's skin if he suddenly found out his worst enemy was on his payroll all these years?
That also somehow reminds me of Batman's "hot line" to Commissioner Gordon. No one ever thought to trace that line ?
Quote: Wonder Boy said:Batman's "hot line" to Commissioner Gordon. No one ever thought to trace that line ?
Even in the 1960s there were "radio phones". I always assumed that the "hotline" worked like one of those. After all, we would sometimes see Batman picking up the Batphone in his car.
Yeah, I guess. I think car-phones were more of a fantasy than a reality in the mid-60's.
The first I recall seeing was in From Russia With Love with Sean Connery (released in 1963). Where Bond is on a romantic outing and the car phone rings, with "M" calling Bond to visit headquarters for his latest world-saving mission. Bond answers with the phone in one hand, and a beautiful girl begging him for sex in the other.
Geez, what a guy has to do for King and country !
I've been heavy into a nostalgic MAD kick recently, and I was a huge MAD reader in the 70's, and while I was reading the book, had managed to get a near-complete run from 1969-1977, with scattered issues prior to that.
One of my favorite WTF covers from MAD is this one from issue 38 (March 1958):
( Click image to enlarge)
Funny enough, but what tickled me most was the image of the artist inset at the bottom.
These two series were some of Adams' earliest work for DC, before he went on to STRANGE ADVENTURES/Deadman, THE SPECTRE, OUR ARMY AT WAR, BRAVE AND THE BOLD, DETECTIVE, BATMAN, HOUSE OF MYSTERY and other great works for DC.
( click image to enlarge ) WHAT IF 34, August 1982
With the normally detached and emotionless Watcher, begging the reader not to buy this issue of WHAT IF, because of the unspeakably terrible contents.
Although it's actually a great issue, collecting humorous parodies of Marvel heroes from issues of CRAZY magazine, with work by most of the creative teams doing the regular series that were parodied here, including:
Miller/Janson DAREDEVIL Moench/Sienkiewicz MOON KNIGHT Jones/Brent Anderson KA-ZAR Stern/Simons GHOST RIDER Hall/Breeding AVENGERS Fingeroth/Springer DAZZLER Romita Jr/Layton IRON MAN
among others.
All framed together in a sequence by Hembeck.
My favorite is "Spidey Intellectual Stories" by Stern and Hannigan, where Spiderman and the Mad Thinker, instead of a fight scene, sit around in armchairs discussing Spinoza and the meaning of love. [Comments the Watcher: ] "For a select audience to be sure..."
This artist jam issue is second only to the outstandingly fun FANTASTIC FOUR ROAST (March 1982)
If you define "WTF" moments as stories that leave you scratching your head at how out of place they seem and which are soon dropped from continuity or never mentioned again, I think a good argument could be made that the bulk of DC's stories over the past ten years are WTF moments.
Quote: Darknight613 said: Brian Azzarello's "For Tomorrow" Superman storyline.
I also think "Bruce Wayne Fugitive" and "President Luthor" fall into this catagory. Both were stories that, to a lot of fans, didn't make sense at the time and DC is already either forgetting them (shouldn't Bruce be like the OJ of the DCU at this point) or undoing them (Luthor).
And then there's the large number of stories of characters who died, but then "got better": Green Lantern and Green Arrow being the most prominent.
Can you think of a more "WTF" moment than the idea that these two guys both came back from the freaking DEAD and now no one really bothers to discuss or react to all the implications of that?
Quote: Darknight613 said: I've re-read this entire thread just for the hell of it...and nobody here has mentioned Gwen Stacy having kids with The Green Goblin?
The story alone gets a WTF, and an honorary second WTF for it not being mentioned on this thread (until now).
I think most of us are trying to forget that storyline.
Quote: the G-man said: And then there's the large number of stories of characters who died, but then "got better": Green Lantern and Green Arrow being the most prominent.
Can you think of a more "WTF" moment than the idea that these two guys both came back from the freaking DEAD and now no one really bothers to discuss or react to all the implications of that?
Not to get off-topic, in Green Arrow's case, it seems that every time he shows up, he's on about coming back from the dead, as if we aren't ever allowed to forget about it. And GA's always being asked about what it's like to die. There are more and better examples, but I can't think of them right now.
Although in Green Lantern's case, I pretty much agree.
Quote: Darknight613 said: I've re-read this entire thread just for the hell of it...and nobody here has mentioned Gwen Stacy having kids with The Green Goblin?
The story alone gets a WTF, and an honorary second WTF for it not being mentioned on this thread (until now).
I think most of us are trying to forget that storyline.
As would I. But it's so difficult. The scars run so deep...
Quote: the G-man said: I also think "Bruce Wayne Fugitive" and "President Luthor" fall into this catagory. Both were stories that, to a lot of fans, didn't make sense at the time and DC is already either forgetting them (shouldn't Bruce be like the OJ of the DCU at this point) or undoing them (Luthor).
Fugitive/Murderer was a pretty decent story (especially when compared to what came since then). The problem is that they were also the final arcs of the writers and the writers assigned after them had their own "fresh takes" on Batman (translation: crap).
President Lex was a good concept that got thrown off because DC was slow to utilize what could have been a great story. Then after 9/11 they couldn't deal with the implications of Superman going after the president for a year and a half. By that point, no one cared.
Quote: Darknight613 said: Brian Azzarello's "For Tomorrow" Superman storyline.
I also think "Bruce Wayne Fugitive" and "President Luthor" fall into this catagory. Both were stories that, to a lot of fans, didn't make sense at the time and DC is already either forgetting them (shouldn't Bruce be like the OJ of the DCU at this point) or undoing them (Luthor).
And then there's the large number of stories of characters who died, but then "got better": Green Lantern and Green Arrow being the most prominent.
Can you think of a more "WTF" moment than the idea that these two guys both came back from the freaking DEAD and now no one really bothers to discuss or react to all the implications of that?
I think CRISIS ranks high on the WTF list, retroactively re-writing the DC Universe history, and editing out many of my favorite characters from 50 years of continuity.
Such as KAMANDI, and Earth Two (the JSA Earth), Earth X (Quality Comics heroes), Earth S (the Shazam/Marvel Family universe), and so on, melding things together in a way that wasn't as attractive to me as the separate worlds.
You can pretty much go year by year through DC's history from that point forward, following CRISIS (1985-1986) and go through each annual mega-crossover event as an annual WTF event, ruining a month's worth of DC titles.
And I definitely mean WTF in a *bad* way !
LEGENDS (1987)
MILLENIUM (1987)
And then INVASION the year after that (1988).
And I'm less clear on the dates of each after, but...
ARMAGEDDON 2001
WAROF THE GODS in the same year
then ECLIPSO
then BLOODLINES
then ZERO HOUR
then FINAL NIGHT
then GENESIS
then DC ONE MILLION
then KINGDOM,
Then DAY OF JUDGEMANT,
then SINS OF YOUTH,
then OUR WORLDS AT WAR
and LAST LAUGH within one month of each other.
then something with Gorillas in a bunch of annuals.
And then I stopped caring about crossovers (if I ever did)
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: Fugitive/Murderer was a pretty decent story (especially when compared to what came since then). The problem is that they were also the final arcs of the writers and the writers assigned after them had their own "fresh takes" on Batman (translation: crap).
President Lex was a good concept that got thrown off because DC was slow to utilize what could have been a great story. Then after 9/11 they couldn't deal with the implications of Superman going after the president for a year and a half. By that point, no one cared.
I define a "WTF" story as not simply a bizarre one, but one that is bizarre and SHOULD have major, perhaps permanent, repercussions for the characters but doesn't.
In the case of "Fugitive," you had Bruce charged with murder and thrown in prison for a significant period of time.
Even if found innocent, as we've seen with Robert Blake and OJ, Bruce would have still suffered the stigma of that accusation. At least half of Gotham would have assumed he "got off" because of his "money and connections." Like OJ, he'd be a social pariah.
In addiiton, both Simpson and Blake were sued for millions after being acquitted and both were ordered to pay big judgements.
However, in the DCU, we see a Bruce Wayne that's still the beloved millionaire playboy. A Bruce Wayne that still sits on the boards of major corporations, gets feted to the best charity events and, at least as far as I know, never got sued by anyone for wrongful death.
Similarly, President Lex. By making Luthor President. You effectively established that, once and for all, the DCU has a completely different timeline than our own. Up until then, the DCU America had the same presidents we did. Bill Clinton was even at Superman's funeral. But now, its as if George Bush never existed (which, for some of you, seems like a good thing, I know, but that's beside the point).
Also, once Lex has been President, even if he is forced out of office, he's still "former President Luthor." No news report in the DCU is going to refer to him as anything but "former President Luthor." It's not something that people would easily forget.
In their own way, both "Fugitive" and "President Luthor" were stories that were every bit as bizarre as stories of Hercules pulling Manhattan up the Hudson with a giant chain, or Superman's glasses making people think that Clark looked like a different person.
Quote: the G-man said: I define a "WTF" story as not simply a bizarre one, but one that is bizarre and SHOULD have major, perhaps permanent, repercussions for the characters but doesn't.
In the case of "Fugitive," you had Bruce charged with murder and thrown in prison for a significant period of time.
Even if found innocent, as we've seen with Robert Blake and OJ, Bruce would have still suffered the stigma of that accusation. At least half of Gotham would have assumed he "got off" because of his "money and connections." Like OJ, he'd be a social pariah.
as i said before the WTF came with Hush. That pushed aside the subplots and forced the fresh take aspect onto the books. Had Ruka and Brubaker stayed awhile then it would've continued. They should've planned it for 6 months earlier.
Quote: In addiiton, both Simpson and Blake were sued for millions after being acquitted and both were ordered to pay big judgements.
They weren't acquited with concrete proof that their was a conspiracy involving a high level assassin. Sasha had no family and the only one in a position to sue was Wayne.
Quote: However, in the DCU, we see a Bruce Wayne that's still the beloved millionaire playboy. A Bruce Wayne that still sits on the boards of major corporations, gets feted to the best charity events and, at least as far as I know, never got sued by anyone for wrongful death.
As I said Sasha had no family. And there was no one in a position to sue Bruce, especially since there was hardcore evidence that he was innocent. O.J. and Blake got off due to lack of solid evidence, so there was still doubt and suspicion.
Quote: Similarly, President Lex. By making Luthor President. You effectively established that, once and for all, the DCU has a completely different timeline than our own. Up until then, the DCU America had the same presidents we did. Bill Clinton was even at Superman's funeral. But now, its as if George Bush never existed (which, for some of you, seems like a good thing, I know, but that's beside the point).
which is a slight problem for me. But it did free them up to essentially own the President. Whereas there's a lot of flak and risk of censorship from corporate with showing the president in an undignified manner. Note: Marvel's flack of Bush in Ultimate X-men and DC censoring the Authority issue showing Bush as cowardly.
Quote: Also, once Lex has been President, even if he is forced out of office, he's still "former President Luthor." No news report in the DCU is going to refer to him as anything but "former President Luthor." It's not something that people would easily forget.
Quote:
true. But thanks to Loeb botching the storyline people won't touch it.
Quote: In their own way, both "Fugitive" and "President Luthor" were stories that were every bit as bizarre as stories of Hercules pulling Manhattan up the Hudson with a giant chain, or Superman's glasses making people think that Clark looked like a different person.
quite the opposite. Herc/Supes stories were ridiculous for anyone to believe. However a billionaire being framed and a corrupt President were maybe too realistic for comics.
Quote: First Amongst Daves said:There was an issue of Batman where Captain Boomerang has captured Batman, doesn't unmask him, doesn't shoot him or drug him, but instead ties him with rope to a giant boomerang with a rocket on it, which launches itself into the sky and explodes, to Boomerang's delight. Of course, Batman has burned the rope in the jet flame (without burning his hands off) and leapt to safety while Boomerang wasn't looking. Good thing Boomerang didn't use chains.
For the life of me, as I read that description I can actually hear Neil Hefti's Batman music playing in my head.
Quote: r3x29yz4a said:as i said before the WTF came with Hush. That pushed aside the subplots and forced the fresh take aspect onto the books. Had Ruka and Brubaker stayed awhile then it would've continued. They should've planned it for 6 months earlier.
Which I why, in part, I said that MOST of DC's output over the past ten years could be classified as WTF.
I agree that "Hush" will probably go down as a WTF story too.
One of my favorite WTF storylines, in a very GOOD way, is Bruce Jones/Brent Anderson/Ron Frenz/Armando Gil's KAZAR THE SAVAGE, from 1981-1983.
Edgar Rice Burroughs-style jungle adventure, mixed with a lot of humor and love-triangles/love-rectangles, t & a, and mind-blowing plot twists.
Kazar appears to be dead in issue 20, and issue 21 comes out with the cover: "Kazar is dead, long live..." (new logo: ) "SHANNA THE SAVAGE!"
And then Shanna appears to die at the end of that issue, and on the next-issue ad, which usually shows the next month's cover, it says in big letters over an image-less black background: "How can we have a COVER when we don't even have a HERO ?!?"
Great stuff, and dirt cheap back issues.
I think the best issues were 1-27. Issue 19 was Brent Anderson's last issue, but the Frenz/Gil stories after remained great, if not even better, after Anderson left the series.
DETECTIVE COMICS 476, the conclusion of the classic Englehart/Rogers/Austin run on Batman, with some wild twists involving Rupert Thorne, Professor Hugo Strange, and of course, The Joker.
An asute observer will note the smiling corpses in the foreground are... editor Julius Schwartz, Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers !
This and the rest of the Englehart/Rogers run are collected in the very reasonably priced trade BATMAN: STRANGE APPARITIONS, at a mere $12.95
Look, I really do try to stay positive in the column. I think a lot more good is done by pointing people toward what I think are good comics than by spewing venom about bad ones. And now that I’ve been actually writing comics myself (more on that in future weeks if you haven’t already heard), I’m all the more sensitive to the notion. I realize now more than ever that no one intentionally writes a bad comic book.
But Spider-Man bit a guy’s head off.
I’m going to say it again for emphasis.
Spider-Man bit a guy’s head off. Has there ever been a creative team that seems to have so little of an idea what makes the character work? In the seemingly endless “THE OTHER: EVOLVE OR DIE” storyline, we’ve seen issue after issue of Spidey suffering from an unknown, practically undescribed disease, which is itself the worst, cheapest kind of unfulfilled tension, since we all know Peter Parker isn’t really going to die.
Then writer Reggie Hudlin gives us what was supposed to be a heartwarming story of Peter sharing a family moment with Mary Jane and Aunt May – only he has May and MJ wearing old outdated suits of IRON MAN armor, so they can sneak into Latveria and use Dr. Doom’s time machine.
I’m going to say that again for emphasis, too. Aunt May was flying around in Iron Man’s armor. Ay caramba.
So the climax of the story came in a couple of recent issues by J. Michael Straczynski, in which Morlun, the mystical spider-eating bad guy from earlier in JMS’ AMAZING SPIDER-MAN run, shows up and attacks the now-weak and ailing Spidey, beating him mercilessly and – I kid you not – plucking out Spidey’s eyeball and eating it. Not to be satisfied with just that bit of pointless gore, the next issue finds Morlun attacking a hospitalized Spidey, only to find Spidey transformed into some sort of spider/human hybrid, who leaps on Morlun, pins him down with some sort of stingers that have extruded from his arms, and proceeds to eat Morlun’s head. And in case you’re thinking I’m misinterpreting the art, there’s a helpful caption:
“…when the spider bites, when the spider feeds…it always starts at the head.”
The fact that the new school of writers feel a need to use such over-the-top elements, in a character as idiot proof as Spiderman, shows just how desperate, talentless and bankrupt of ideas they are.
I remember a topic you started a year ago, discussing the absurd shock elements Marvel felt a need to use last year !
Pretty much every LEGION story since 1994 (Post-"Zero Hour") has been a major W.T.F. !
I'm at a loss to understand the popularity of the 2001 Abnett/ Lanning LEGION series, that I finally sampled, which to me is indistinguishable from any X-MEN titles published in the last 15 years:
1) Heroes that are indistinguishable from the villains, with grim, angry, bratty-looking faces, going on and on with the villains in exchanges of intimidating tough talk about their ability to rough each other up.
And have tough sounding code names, and behave like ultra-tough intensively trained commandos, instead of a friendly group of heroes.
2) Among themselves, the Legionnaires having angry confrontational exchanges that are completely alien to the characters I know and love from the Levitz-era and prior. Even in the "Five Year Gap" storyline (Which I'd previously considered the darkest LEGION storyline), the characters had camaraderie and a strong sense of doing only what was necessary, and didn't have a relentless bad-attitude posture, gloating about their ability to pound others into pulp.
3) The characters all look like they're, at most, in their early teens. With LEGIONNAIRES series, this was somewhat forgiveable, because they regained a youthful sense of fun and playfulness. But now they've become pointlessly tough and serious little kids, in a dark future.
I was equally repulsed by the previous LEGION LOST series, for the same reason.
4) The whole point of LEGION, from its beginnings in the late 1950's, was this bright near-utopian future, that human civilization has resolved all of its problems and created the next best thing to a perfect society. I'm turned off by the darker future LEGION has become since the mid-1990's.
And really, the Abnett/Lanning LEGION issues I sampled have the Legion's 30th-century future as barely even a backdrop.
Like I said, it's a story indistinguishable from any recent issue of the X-MEN, and it could just as easily be a story set in the present, rather than the 30th century, the way it is written.
I really think Abnett and Lanning are tremendously talented writers, as demonstrated by their story contributions in the 9-11 tribute book put out in early 2002.
But I was very un-impressed with their work in LEGION, or in their ICEMAN limited series for Marvel. I fail to see why their new LEGION book was selling so well.
Unless it's precisely because their book was a cloning of X-MEN, and simply capitalizing on its similarity to that top-selling drek.
The recent Waid/Kitson LEGION is the first palatable version I've seen in the last 12 years (i.e., the first version in 12 years to be somewhat consistent with the Levitz-and-prior version of the Legion).
And even that has stretched its plot over so damned many issues, I've grown bored with a series I had early on been very excited about.
Again, WTF !
My pick of the best LEGION run is LEGION OF SUPERHEROES 287-306. The stories in this series are pretty easy to follow, and many of these issues have origins that explain the previous continuity up to this point.
For me, these issues by writer Paul Levitz and artist Keith Giffen, are the best scripted, best illustrated, most intelligent and definitive version of the Legion ever done (published between 1982-1984).
Issues 296-297 in particular give a review of the earliest forming of the Legion, within a two-part story. There are checklists of every previous appearance by the Legion in the lettercolumns of 298, 299, 301, 302, and 305 (a 5-part chronological checklist of all appearances up to that point, in 1983)
Beginning in 1958, Legion began as a series running in ADVENTURE COMICS (1958-1969, issues 247-380),
then moving to ACTION COMICS (1969-1970, issues 377-392),
then to SUPERBOY (1970-1980, issues 191, 193, 195 and 197-258), with issue 197 re-named SUPERBOY STARRING THE LEGION OF SUPERHEROES.
Then finally the title was renamed LEGION OF SUPERHEROES ( 2nd series, beginning in 1980, issues 259-313 )
( The 1st series was a 4-issue reprint series in 1973, reprinting a few issues of the 60's run from ADVENTURE COMICS, reprinting in order: ADVENTURE 328, 333, 340, and 341 )
The Levitz/Giffen LEGION issues (285-306, from 1982-1984) are very true to the Legion and its history, and was the beginning of the more developed, more science-fictional universe of the Legion.
Levitz began writing the Legion for several broken stints in the mid-70's but wrote the longest continuous run on LEGION from (2nd series)284-326, and on through (third series) 1-63 (from 1984-1989).
And Giffen gradually took over the direction of the Legion from Levitz, toward the end of the 3rd series.
The "Five Year Gap" (in 4th series, issues 1-61, from 1989-1994), is a darker storyline where the United Planets is falling apart economically, and being over-run by invading alien empires. But the Legion remain a symbol of hope in a dark universe. These issues are difficult to read if you don't already know the past continuity and if you don't have extreme familiarity with the Legion character names. So I'd save this run for last.
The "Five Year Gap" storyline (by Tom and Mary Bierbaum, and Keith Giffen) picks up the Legion saga five years after the volume 3 storyline ended, with a lot of changes and un-answered questions about what occurred during the years in between. The storyline deals with time travel and alternate realities for the Legion (trying to explain the changes to the future created by the CRISIS-related changes and annihilation of Superboy and Supergirl, who were instrumental in the formation of the Legion). The 4th series storyline several times begins in one direction, and then an issue or two later, that timeline is obliterated and replaced by an alternate present the next issue, and all the characters you just got to know are completely changed. It's confusing and challenging to read, and I both liked and didn't like it.
The "Five Year Gap" storyline ended with issue 61, in a cross-over event called "Zero Hour", at which point the previous 35 years of continuity were abandoned, and a new pre-pubescent junior-high-school-ish LEGION replaced it.
The continuity has been abandoned and replaced (or "re-booted") many times since, and this is very unpopular with many longtime Legion fans.
But for me things start and end with the Levitz and Giffen issues (LEGION 285-306).
Other very popular Legion runs:
Dave Cockrum art(SUPERBOY 197-201) Mike Grell art (SUPERBOY 201-228)
Steve Lightle art (LEGION 3rd series, 7-16) Greg Larocque art (LEGION 3rd series, 17-48)
All of the above, I think, cements LEGION's place in the W T F Hall of Fame !!
And I think it's horrible what DC has done to LEGION, post-Levitz.
I still enjoyed LEGION to a large degree with some reservations during "Five Year Gap", up until "Zero Hour" (LEGION fourth series, issues 1-61, from 1989-1994).
But after that, they destroyed the series.
When you consider LEGION is the ONLY series to have its entire Silver Age run published in hardcover (and a nice chunk of the 70's era, too !), and so clearly a fanbase that highly values the series' past continuity, rejecting that continuity is a clear slap in the face to longtime LEGION fans.
It may be enjoyable for many (post-1994), but it's not a Legion I like, or even recognize.
I heard from my comic shop owner that the Wait/Kitson run is about to be re-booted as well.
I like the new Legion series but agree with Wonder Boy that the title does deserve a WTF. Such a long series with such a rich history just jettisoned. It's unclear where their going with the new title. An upcoming cover features pre-zero hour characters Dawnstar, Tyroc & Blok. The issue after that the title changes to Supergirl & the Legion of Superheroes. So there seems to be a move back to the classic Legion or at least some of those classic elements.
On a side note it sounds like the Legion will be making an appearence on the JLU cartoon this season. (a Legion where Bouncing Boy is a member) Also a Legion cartoon series is in development!
The fact that the new school of writers feel a need to use such over-the-top elements, in a character as idiot proof as Spiderman, shows just how desperate, talentless and bankrupt of ideas they are.
I remember a topic you started a year ago, discussing the absurd shock elements Marvel felt a need to use last year !
This is the annual update of what Marvel is attempting to hype and promote, in place of true storytelling and talent.
jms and Peter David are great writers. If you read the stories then it makes sense. The Iron Man suits were for protection sothey could visit the past and see Uncle Ben and Peter's parents again for a few minutes. The Spider bite to the head was in line with the primal nature of the spider. I don't mind them dealing with Spider-man in that way under those circumstances as long as he doesn't get too much like a spider and shoot webs from his ass.
The Gwen Stacy storyline was actually pretty decent. It was supposed to be Peter as the father but the editors insisted on the change, and it was handled well. Her sleeping with Norman doesn't make her a slut, it makes her a young woman who made a mistake with an older man (which happens all the time).
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: jms and Peter David are great writers. If you read the stories then it makes sense. The Iron Man suits were for protection so they could visit the past and see Uncle Ben and Peter's parents again for a few minutes.
Yes, I think we all understand that.
But I think we also all understand that doesn't make the idea of Aunt May in an Iron Man suit any more palatable.
I'm sorry, but this is every bit as stupid as those plots in the old 1960s "Batman" series, where 70 year old Alfred would put on one of the spare batsuits to rescue a kidnapped Bruce Wayne.
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: The Iron Man suits were for protection sothey could visit the past and see Uncle Ben and Peter's parents again for a few minutes.
It's common sense, really. The writer didn't want to make Aunt May and Mary Jane wear Iron Man suits, but if they have to go to the past to pay a visit to Uncle Ben and Peter's parents, then how can they not wear Iron Man suits?
Quote: If Ray was critiqing comics in the 60s he would have said:
If you read the story then it makes sense. The Batman suit on Sixty Year Old Alfred was for protection so no one would figure out why Batman and Bruce Wayne had the same dog.
And no one would question why Robin would run around snapping pictures of Bruce handing the dog to "Batman". Young boys like to learn photography and use cameras to document mundane life moments just in case someone questions your secret ID. It happens all the time.
"That's right ! And I would have gotten away with it too. If it wasn't for those darned kids... and that... hound !! And that 60-year-old butler dressed in a bat-suit... and that kid with a camera photographing the scene..."
This wasn't Aunt May using the suit to rescue Peter while he was crime fighting. It was putting them in the suits to protect them long enough to get to the machine and then back.
It was a small element of what has been a great storyline.
Yeah, a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards is soooooo much more plausible than a seventy year old man posing for a photo in a cape and tights.
It may be enjoyable for many (post-1994), but it's not a Legion I like, or even recognize.
OMG! The world is ending!
TWB and I....agree on something.
In fact, I agree with all that he said about the Legion in that post. Wow. It's like Yalta. All we have to do now is settle on how to divide Europe.
I have a thing for eastern European women. You can have the rest of Europe.
But seriously, glad we could agree on something. (Finally !! )
I did like the Waid/Kitson run also, at least initially. But it was stretched for too long. And when there's 30 pages per issue... geez, man, something happen already !
I wrote an enthusiatic response to the earlier issues in another topic a few months ago, along with a few other recent books I've enjoyed:
Quote: the G-man said: Yeah, a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards is soooooo much more plausible than a seventy year old man posing for a photo in a cape and tights.
Technically Spider-man snuck in and got past the guards. The suits were to allow them to follow him in. Then they activated some blasters to save him. So its like putting a bulletproof vest on her to take May into a bank under seige and then her using a gun to shoot someone.
Alfred as Batman was supposed to be people honestly thinking he was Batman.
I loved Jim Starlin's "Metamorphosis Odyssey in EPIC ILLUSTRATED 1-9. (Issue 3 introduced Dreadstar). I loved THE PRICE graphic novel, (later reprinted in color as DREADSTAR ANNUAL # 1 ) I loved the DREADSTAR Marvel graphic novel.
And I loved the DREADSTAR comic book series, issues 1-5. It maintained such a consistent level of great art and storytelling, even when it went from painted art (the graphic novels) to pen & ink (when it became the DREADSTAR comic series). It was so consistently good. It portrayed war, heroism and tragedy on a grand scale.
Leading up to some thing called "Plan M", some monumental undertaking that would save two intergalactic empires from destroying themselves. And then... In issue 6, "Plan M" was revealed. And "Plan M" was... stupid. Trite. Silly. Annoying. Disappointing. Not believable.
I kept reading for another 6 issues or so, but I never enjoyed another issue after. The stories were consistently half-hearted and disappointing beyond that point. I asked Jim Starlin once at a show, as politely as I could, what happened at that point (i.e., WTF) and he let on that Marvel was very late paying him, and that affected his enthusiasm for the series.
Starlin eventually took the series to First Comics, with issue 27. But the series never regained its early magic. What a let-down.
Rarely have I seen a series that started so good take such an incredible dive in quality.
Quote: the G-man said: Yeah, a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards is soooooo much more plausible than a seventy year old man posing for a photo in a cape and tights.
Quote: r3x29yz4a said: Technically Spider-man snuck in and got past the guards. The suits were to allow them to follow him in. Then they activated some blasters to save him. So its like putting a bulletproof vest on her to take May into a bank under seige and then her using a gun to shoot someone.
Oh...okay...
So....what you're saying is that, not only do you accept the plausibility of a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards...but you think that Spiderman would voluntarily put his seventy year old aunt with a heart condition into a hostage situation and give her a gun before taking her in...
Tell me...did you ever actually READ a Spiderman comic book before the JMS run, or is this your first exposure to the character?
Did anyone read that HULK magazine published in 1980 that Jim Shooter wrote (issue 23), where two gay men tried to rape Bruce Banner at the YMCA?
The letters page a few issues later said Marvel got a huge backlash of angry mail from gay readers because of that story, saying it misrepresented homosexuals.
Although I know such things happen. About ten years ago, a friend of mine told me he was homosexually raped by two men at a park in Miami when he was 12 years old.
There's plenty of gaypists running around in message boards. Thankfully, the authorities brand them with a "G-" before their name so the other posters know not to get too close.
Kirby's Fourth World series (1970-1972) was leading toward a "Final Battle" in the fire pits of Apokalips (Armagetto) where "father fights son" (Orion vs Darkseid).
( click on image to see all issues, enlarged covers, and interior pages for each series)
Kirby wanted to bring the saga to a clear and final end, but the titles NEW GODS and FOREVER PEOPLE (in 1972) were cancelled by DC management before Kirby could end it. And MR MIRACLE (after issue 9) although not cancelled, was pushed in a completely different non-Fourth-World direction.
But oddly enough, these titles ( NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE) were revived just months after Kirby left DC in early 1976.
It can certainly be speculated that these titles were cancelled to keep Kirby from killing his own characters. And that these titles were purposefully revived as soon as Kirby was gone from DC, so DC could have other creators continue the two series (NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE) in a way that kept marketable characters from being killed off, instead of in the way Kirby had wanted to conclusively finish them off in the series.
It can certainly be speculated that these titles were cancelled to keep Kirby from killing his own characters. And that these titles were purposefully revived as soon as Kirby was gone from DC, so DC could have other creators continue the two series (NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE) in a way that kept marketable characters from being killed off, instead of in the way Kirby had wanted to conclusively finish them off in the series.
It's debatable the extent to which the New Gods/Fourth World characters can be described as "marketable."
I would be more inclined to think it a coincidence. Several years passed between the books' cancellation and return. Furthermore, at the time of the return, DC was in the midst of their "explosion" where they were reviving old titles left and right, not just Kirby ones.
Jim Jackson said: It's debatable the extent to which the New Gods/Fourth World characters can be described as "marketable."
Well, Jim, as far as marketability, I'll grant you, they're not a huge franchise for DC.
But Darkseid and the other New Gods characters appear frequently in DC's books, and have been in a number of the DC cartoons, such as Superman and Super Friends. Darkseid is comparable to being DC's equivalent of Dr Doom in popularity as a villain.
Quote:
G-man said: I would be more inclined to think it a coincidence. Several years passed between the books' cancellation and return. Furthermore, at the time of the return, DC was in the midst of their "explosion" where they were reviving old titles left and right, not just Kirby ones.
Regarding the revival of many old DC titles in the 1976-1978 period, there were far more new titles being produced ( KONG, STALKER, BLITZKRIEG, MANBAT, STEEL, DYNAMIC CLASSICS, WARLORD, BEOWULF, JUSTICE INC, THE SHADOW, GHOST CASTLE, KOBRA, SECRETS OF HAUNTED HOUSE, JONAH HEX...) But few former DC titles I can think of that were revived. Aside from NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE, the only other I can think of is SHOWCASE.
SHAZAM was re-launched in 1973, and had been a great disappointment for DC. It was cancelled in 1978 during the "DC Implosion", immediately after it had a big change in story approach. (As were NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE, also cancelled during the Implosion)
Kirby's last published book for DC, KAMANDI 40, was dated April 1976.
The first NEW GODS revival was the same month he left DC !
( FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL 13, April 1976, "Return of the New Gods" by Dennis O'Neil and Mike Vosberg). Presumably, it sold pretty well, since...
Their revival in NEW GODS 12 is cover dated July 1977. ( cover linked in my above post)
The MISTER MIRACLE revival, with issue 19, is cover dated September 1977. ( Again, cover linked in my above post. Great work by Englehart/Rogers, by the way)
If these books were cancelled due to low sales, as DC management gave as the reason (NEW GODS cancelled in Nov 1972, and MISTER MIRACLE in March 1974, the latter cancelled barely three years before the series was revived) then the sudden confidence of DC in a new series doesn't make sense, so soon after cancellation.
It's my conspiracy theory, and I'm stickin' to it !
Quote: the G-man said: So....what you're saying is that, not only do you accept the plausibility of a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards...but you think that Spiderman would voluntarily put his seventy year old aunt with a heart condition into a hostage situation and give her a gun before taking her in...
Its a comic. Anything sounds ridiculous if you expand it enough. Such as: Billionaire inventor with a heart condition creates a suit of armor that he uses to fight crime so that the suit will keep hisheart condition steady. He then builds a skyscraper with all sorts of state of the art equipment but can't afford to rebuild a big house in the suburbs or give paychecks to his team mates. He and the WWII hero, who was frozen in a block of ice, form a team made up of a woman who was altered by a cult, a 100 year old mutant with metal on his bones, a geek who was bitten by a radioactive spider, and a guy with unbreakable skin. They form this team because the world needs them. The "world" in this case is New York which happens to be the center of every super hero/villain plot in the universe. And all these heroes live in this one city yet don't run into each other every single issue despite the fact that there are big attention-drawing explosions and fights going on.
Oh, and the next stage in human evolution produces a race of people who all have different powers.
Oh, and this 70 year old woman was replaced by a look alike actress who somehow knew Peter was spider-man.
Oh, and this 70 year old woman was engagedto Doctor Octopus.
Oh, and a scientific genius who is always hard up for cash can invent webbing as strong as steel cables, spider-tracers that can be tuned in with his spider-sense and other gadgets but never once thinks of inventing something to patent. Instead he just takes pictures of himself jumping around.
So, yes. Given all that, I didn't bat an eye at her being able to moderately use a weapon suit. Any 70 year old can fire a gun.
I've heard the New Gods theory before, and it makes sense. Not the first time (and certainly not the last time) that publishers fucked with a creator's plan. On that line of thought. My Peter David WTF list: Marvel wanted Hulk to be Savage again. David wanted to make the title into a suspense type book. Marvel removed him from Hulk after 12 years and the resulting Savage Hulk stories lead to the titles' cancellation after about 6 months.
Young Justice is cancelled to turn it into a carbon copy of every other team/Johns book out there. The reason was that they wanted to match it more to the new animated series.
The Geoff Johns "smile panel." In which a character responds by smiling and saying (generally) a one word response.
Artists who can't get their work out on time. I like Hitch's work, but 2-4 months is a little silly. Especially since Ed Bagley does great work on Ultimate Spider-man and those issues are sometimes bi-weekly.
Only 5 years after ending crossovers because people complained about them taking over titles for a month, DC does a stryline that takes over every title for a year and involves six 4 issuemini-series and a 52 issue series that needs to be read to understand what's going on in current titles.
Quote: Jim Jackson said: It's debatable the extent to which the New Gods/Fourth World characters can be described as "marketable."
Well, Jim, as far as marketability, I'll grant you, they're not a huge franchise for DC.
But Darkseid and the other New Gods characters appear frequently in DC's books, and have been in a number of the DC cartoons, such as Superman and Super Friends. Darkseid is comparable to being DC's equivalent of Dr Doom in popularity as a villain.
I'm not convinced, though, that you could say that about these characters in 1975-76.
I will say this: It stands to reason that DC circa 1975 wouldn't have wanted Kirby to kill off his entire universe of characters for whatever reason. I can see TPTB sitting there in 1975/76 looking at something like DOOM PATROL, which was gaining popularity in a variety of reprint series that DC had done, and them saying, "Damn, we should never have let Drake kill them off. We won't make the mistake again of letting a creative type kill off an entire group of charcters they created for us."
But this is comic books we are talking about. The fact that anyone, Drake, Kirby, whomever, killed off a character previously doesn't mean they can't come back.
And its not as if DC was a slave to continuity in the 70s either.
Look at all these WTF moments that were retconned or forgotten during that decade.
Quote: the G-man said: But this is comic books we are talking about. The fact that anyone, Drake, Kirby, whomever, killed off a character previously doesn't mean they can't come back.
And its not as if DC was a slave to continuity in the 70s either.
Look at all these WTF moments that were retconned or forgotten during that decade.
That's actually a very good point.
When it comes to major events in comic books, nothing is set in stone.
Anything can be retconned away.
The death of Alfred in the Infantino DETECTIVE issues. (Can you say: "The inside story of the Outsider" ?)
The death of Phoenix. (I stopped caring around X-MEN 175, with the whole Madeline Pryor thing)
The death of the Green Goblin. (They just replaced him with a new Hobgoblin character. And then brought back Norman Osborn too ! )
The death of Robin. (Just how many Robin characters have they replaced him with now? )
And one of the greatest blasphemies for me (after such a perfect Goodwin/Simonson run in DETECTIVE 437-443) was they brought back Manhunter! (In SECRET SOCIETY OF SUPERVILLAINS )
There was a fan-press article out in 1989 in the COMICS JOURNAL, during the whole BATMAN: "A Death in the Family" 4-issue storyline (by Jim Starlin, Jim Aparo and Mike DeCarlo), that talked about how, before the fourth issue was even on the stands, DC management had already prepared to introduce a new Robin to replace the recently murdered Jason Todd.
Starlin was quoted as being really pissed off about it. That he felt like he had contributed something to the whole Batman mythology. And then DC immediately rendered it meaningless by instantly whipping out a new Robin.
He appealed to a DC executive, who told Starlin: "We've got to. His picture's on a million lunch boxes." Or words to that effect. Gotta keep that franchise going. And plausibility be damned !
I guess that's part of the fun of this topic: We all know none of it is written in stone. But it's funny as hell, the implausible contortions Marvel and DC put their universes through, to keep those franchises going.
I've been re-reading my Marvel CONAN comic book run lately. In a powerful war story, Conan's red-bearded mercenary friend Fafnir loses his arm in combat and then dies pointlessly in issues 19 and 20. Then another 100 issues later, another writer brings him back with the sword and sorcery equivalent of a bionic arm ! I mean, come on...
And I guess whether Aunt May's time travel in an Iron Man suit is any more plausible than an alternate universe crazy-as-fuck Superboy, whether an O'Neil/Adams Batman is any more "realistic" than a Frank Miller Batman, or than a Loeb/Lee Batman, or whatever, is all in the eye of the beholder.
I recall a TWO GUN KID:SUNSET RIDERS story that was drawn like it was another issue of SPAWN or WILDCATS. Pseudo-Image art in overdrive, completely inappropriate to the story being told. ( Click on images to see enlarged covers, other issues of series, and interior pages )
And a more recent re-vamp of a western hero, Zimmerman scripting/gaying up RAWHIDE KID, in the 2003 series. I was amazed to see John Severin drew the thing. That's not something I want to see. Especially in a long-established western hero.
A very good western series was the 1985 RAWHIDE KID four-issue series, with humor and sympathy focusing on the perils of an aging western hero. By Bill Mantlo and Herb Trimpe.
And best of all, Doug Wildey's outstanding "Rio" series in ECLIPSE MONTHLY (issues 1, 2, 5, 9 and 10), later collected in a beautiful RIO Graphic Novel. With a few sequels.
Aside from other western stories in comics, Wildey is best known as the storyboard artist for the early 60's Johnny Quest cartoon series.
Another interesting story is in a one-shot anthology issue of ALIEN ECOUNTERS # 1 by Fantaco, out in 1981 (not to be confused with the later Eclipse series of ALIEN ENCOUNTERS).
"Surviving Son" is Mike Zeck's own version of the origin of Superman, with a father and mother who respectfully answer to the names of Lyk-Ter and Klyt-Sor.
Other great work in this issue includes early stories by Steve Bissette, Howard Cruse, Tom Yeates, Fred Hembeck, Rudy Nebres, Rich Larson, and a beautiful painted cover by George Chastain.
Quote: Wonder Boy said: Did anyone read that HULK magazine published in 1980 that Jim Shooter wrote (issue 23), where two gay men tried to rape Bruce Banner at the YMCA?
The letters page a few issues later said Marvel got a huge backlash of angry mail from gay readers because of that story, saying it misrepresented homosexuals.
Although I know such things happen. About ten years ago, a friend of mine told me he was homosexually raped by two men at a park in Miami when he was 12 years old.
lol!
I remember having that mag as a kid - the references went over my head!
I picked up the magazine recently - that was funny, a real sordid little story.
I was reading the letters page and there was outrade at John Burne doing something racist - I didn't know he was mental back then!
I liked the way Jim Shooter wrote unter the name of James Shooter for these 'adult' magazines - he sounds so grown up!
Quote: ROY BATTY said:I was reading the letters page and there was outrade at John Byrne doing something racist - I didn't know he was mental back then!
I remember that, at about the same time, Frank Miller was getting some flack in Daredevil for having a fair number of the street thugs in the book be black. Readers were complaining in the lettercols that it was racist.
The editor wrote back: right or wrong, there are black people who are criminals, just as there are white people who are criminals. To show only white criminals would be no less racist.
I was reading the letters page [in HULK magazine # 23] and there was outrage at John Byrne doing something racist - I didn't know he was mental back then!
I liked the way Jim Shooter wrote unter the name of James Shooter for these 'adult' magazines - he sounds so grown up!
John Byrne had a long interview about his career in THE COMICS JOURNAL # 57, out in 1980, and he talked about being uncomfortable drawing Colleen wing in the IRON FIST title after writer Claremont said he was writing the character as a lesbian.
Byrne also let on that in college, he did a regular one-page comic strip titled "Gay Guy" .
Both of these remarks, predictably, pissed off gay readers.
Quote: Wonder Boy said: Anyone here read the story where Lois Lane turned black (issue 106) ?
Quote: Im Not Mister Mxypltk said: Heh, notice the infamous black Lois Lane from the Silver Age [in Infinite Crisis No. 5]... I can't believe DC would reference that .
Quote: the G-man said: I thought it was the Indian or Pakistani Lois from the "Superman Secret Identity" mini that Busiek wrote. Seriously.
Quote: Ray Adler said: no, she's got a 70's look and is bewildered. the seret identity one had longer hair and was not as bewildered.
Quote: the G-man said: Yeah, but the black Lois Lane from the 70s had a big, Pam Grier-style Afro.
Quote: the G-man said: Yeah, but the black Lois Lane from the 70s had a big, Pam Grier-style Afro.
I know. But this might be a more modernized redesign to not date the black lois look or make it seem too racist.
Quote: the G-man said: I'm still bettings its the Indian/Pakastani "Secret ID" Lois. Busiek recently said he was going to do "a sequel, of sorts" to that story and he's writing Superman "one year later." So it would make sense to have those characters be part of the crisis imagery
Wow.
So the black chick Lois made a few more appearances 30-plus years later, in SUPERMAN SECRET IDENTITY and INFINITE CRISIS.
Apparently it wasn't so beyond the pale as to be ret-conned away. Although maybe sanitized and updated for political correctness.
But there's still no getting around it: They turned Lois Lane into a black chick, to do a "mod" (circa 1971) exploration of racial issues.
Despite some very nice Mike McKone painted art, this 2-issue series is just... goofy.
A gorgeous female military fighting robot, that charges its batteries by... having sex with any nearby man when its batteries run low? What kind of wacked-out fanboy wet dream is that ?
Another of my favorites is from MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 60, by Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald, with gorgeous art by George Perez and Gene Day. The story teams the Thing up with the Impossible Man. In a hilarious scene, the Thing is taking a shower, and Impossible Man walks in on him. The camera angles perfectly re-enact the shower scene from Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho movie!
Great stuff.
In a party scene, George Perez and several other Marvel staffers appear on-camera.
And there's plenty more twists beyond this.
This was at the tail end of Gruenwald/Macchio's "Pegasus Project" epic, in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 53-58, so this was a fun bit of comedy relief to end that part of their run with.
"Infinite Crisis." Not the lame story, or the bloated price of it all, but the name "Infinite Crisis." Crisis on Infinite Earths is a fine name that plays on older stories, but "Infinite Crisis" is the title used for 20 years as a spoof of Crisis. Its a terrible name and is one of the biggest WTF in comics.
1. The story begins in approximately 1938, but ends sometime in the hippie era, which began approximately 1967. Therefore, the story takes place over approximately forty years. Despite that, Hansi stays pretty much the same age. Must be those "aryan genes."
2. I don't know who did the art but it looks famiilar. I think Vince Colletta or Frank McLaughlin, both of whom worked for DC regularly during that era, inked it.
1. The story begins in approximately 1938, but ends sometime in the hippie era, which began approximately 1967. Therefore, the story takes place over approximately forty years. Despite that, Hansi stays pretty much the same age. Must be those "aryan genes."
um is that new math? regular math places it at more like 30 years.
You're correct, Ray. I was thinking it could be closer to forty, given when the story was published but was at least thirty. I apologize for not being clear.
Quote: the G-man said: You're correct, Ray. I was thinking it could be closer to forty, given when the story was published but was at least thirty. I apologize for not being clear.
Quote: the G-man said: 2. I don't know who did the art but it looks famiilar. I think Vince Colletta or Frank McLaughlin, both of whom worked for DC regularly during that era, inked it.
The artist (penciler) was Al Hartley, the guy who did all (?) the other Spire Comics I've ever seen -- you can see his signature on the cover. He also did Patsy Walker and some other stuff for Marvel, as well as a bunch of Archie stuff, both for the original publisher and the licensed Spire Comics issues.
I wonder, however, if the uncredited inker wasn't McLaughlin, Colletta, or some other guy moonlighting from the big two. The inking style is just too familiar.
Quote: the G-man said: You're correct, Ray. I was thinking it could be closer to forty, given when the story was published but was at least thirty. I apologize for not being clear.
why can't you just admit that you were wrong?
this would open up an entire pandoras box, if he started that he would have to admit having cyber tranny sex with pariah is wrong and that could crush the lad....
Quote: Wonder Boy said: Anyone else here read this WHAT IF issue...
...starring a Fantastic Foursome made up of: Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Sol Brodsky and Flo Steinberg?
Written and pencilled by Jack Kirby, inked by Mike Royer.
A high plateau of silliness indeed.
I have an old issue of the Kirby Collector where they talk about this issue a bit. They also mention a hilarious quote from Lee where he mentions a pic that Kirby once drew of Dr. Doom without his mask. Doom's face was Lee's!
Re-reading this thread is a lot of fun. Dave WB's wealth of comic knowledge is extremely impressive, as are his longwinded(though highly informative) posts.
It amazes me how silly comics were in the 70's. I wonder if in 30 years comic readers will look back at the stuff of today and wonder what we are all smoking.
My July 4th offering is the CAPTAIN AMERICA: MADBOMB ! trade (reprinting CAPTAIN AMERICA 193-200, from 1976. Written and pencilled by Jack Kirby, inked by Frank Giacoia and D. Bruce Berry)
This was Kirby's first series on his return to Marvel in late 1975 and early/mid 1976.
In this highly improbable offering, Captain America and the Falcon confront the national threat of the "Madbomb" (a bomb that explodes and drives everyone crazy within a wide radius of the explosion.)
That's for openers.
Following the Madbomber trail, Cap finds...
[ SPOILERS, if you haven't read it ,or plan to: ]
...a secret society of men and women who have lived in underground shelters for 200 years, who wear English-Colonial-style knickers and powdered wigs and want to return an English Monarchy to govern over the United States !
Hey, it could happen.
Among several other unlikely scenes, Cap and the Falcon fight for their lives by trial of fire in a monarchy-built Coliseum, in.... a deadly women's roller-derby.
I half expected Donna Summer to come out and sing "I will Survive" to the roller derby champions. [/SPOILERS]
Also fun was an appearance by then-Secretary of State Henry Kissenger and several other recognizable faces, given a distinctly Kirby twist.
I love just about everything Kirby has done. But this is bad, and I mean really bad. But it's just so off-the-wall and bizarre that it's really fun to read.
There's a second volume that reprints CAPTAIN AMERICA'S BICENTENNIAL BATTLES, a 75-page Marvel Treasury edition, also originally out in 1976, that takes Cap through all the great moments in U.S. history (such as the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, Custer's last stand, W W I, the Alamagordo nuclear test in July 1945, etc. ) that has some equally fun but bizarre scenes. The best part of this second volume is 10 pages of art pencilled by Kirby, and inked by Barry Windsor-Smith !!
Quote: ShazamGrrl1 said: What are the lines, plot devices, situations put in a comic, or fan posts, that just made you think "WTF?!?"?
For me, it was reading so-called "spoilers" for JSA arcs where the poster leaked that Captain Marvel was either tricked or forced into yelling "SHAZAM!" in the middle of a battle.
Next!
The initial post...
Quote: Wonder Boy said:
Consistent with Shazamgrrl's original post, I think that while ret-conned embarrassments are certainly interesting to discuss here, that Shazamgrrl's opening thesis for the topic is broad enough to include any comic book story that has blown your mind and made you say: WOAH !!!
That can be WTF in a bad way, WTF in a good way, WTF in a continuity way, or WTF in an embarassing ret-conned way.
and...
Quote: Wonder Boy said: Again, I vote for all-inclusiveness.
Funny ret-conned-out embarassments, as well as in-continuity mind-blowers, and stuff that just makes you laugh at its goofiness, like the JLI/JLE stuff.
Narrowing the WTF nominees will take some of the fun out of it, and make for less posting here, and a much shorter topic.
Also, I actually did post some MAD covers on page 10 of the topic.
While I agree with you that continuity WTF's are fun and the primary focus here, I like the all-inclusiveness of mentioning other amusing comics oddities, such as MAD, or HANSI THE GIRL WHO LOVED THE SWASTIKA.
Or MOEBIUS # 0: THE HORNY GOOF.
Or PUNISHER VS. ARCHIE, and so forth.
eonline, Captain America movie project continuing, doubtful it would if he were really dead. Marvel's publisher Dan Buckley's comments indicate it's only Steve Rogers' secret identity that's really dead.
L.A. Times, CAPTAIN AMERICA comic book series will continue.
The art for this one is by Rand Holmes, who's done some great EC-style tribute stories in the Wally Wood tradition for ALIEN WORLDS, ALIEN ENCOUNTERS, DEATH RATTLE, SLOW DEATH and other titles.
(I can't link directly to the full-size cover, so at the link just scroll down the alphabetical list of titles and click on the image)
Last night I re-read one of my favorite AVENGERS stories from 1982 by Jim Shooter and Alan Weiss, in AVENGERS 215-216.
Like most of Jim Shooter's stories, it focuses on an early-Marvel twist of characters with superpowers doing everyday things, like running errands, going to the bank, eating out in a restaurant or bar, and the funny situations that occur when they interact with regular people.
In this case, Tigra gets hit on by a guy in a bar, who turns out to be a fur fetishist. Another scene has her (kitty-like) drinking milk at the bar.
Plus other fun kitty-isms.
And fighting Molecule Man, which just adds to the goofiness. WTF in a very fun way.
Anyone who enjoys early Marvel stories would definitely enjoy these issues. Shooter came back for this one last stint for issues 211-220, and all these issues have a quirky early-Marvel feel to them.
This was a great run on AVENGERS, both by Shooter and by others, from issues 141(Perez's first issue) up through 224(Michelinie's last issue). Roger Stern's run from 225-287 had some good stories too, but it suffered from mediocre art (Al Milgrom from 225-254, and J.Buscema/Palmer from 255-287).
Jack Kirby is the biggest WTF in comics ever. Like most "kings" he is an inbred inept sack of shit. While glorified by his followers, he produced nothing but ugly art and dialogue not fit for a 4 year old.
Quote: Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: Jack Kirby is the biggest WTF in comics ever. Like most "kings" he is an inbred inept sack of shit. While glorified by his followers, he produced nothing but ugly art and dialogue not fit for a 4 year old.
Quote: rex said: What does holden mcgroin think of this?
Y'know, this is a fun topic, and this kind of mean-spiritedness really doesn't belong here.
It really is pathetic that you guys need to troll and harass across multiple topics, to the point that it borders on stalking.
What fulfilling lives you must lead, that your greatest joy in life is trying to ruin other people's good time.
One I was reading on a collected DVD, an Uncle Sam story from the Lou Fine illustrated run in NATIONAL COMICS 18, cover-dated December 1941. A 9-page story that portrays an attack by "oriental" forces on U.S. bases in Guam and Pearl Harbor, done so the Germans could simultaneously wage an air-bombing and naval attack on the U.S. East coast.
Chris Claremont, as a character in Marvel Comics over the last 40 years or so, retentively indexed in every comic book appearance. "No super Powers", etc. Does something as fun as writing Claremont into a story really need to be retentively indexed for "powers" and abilities, and monitored for continuity?
This image by Broderick/Colletta from MARVEL PREMIERE 24, circa 1975, I found particularly nice.
Two others I can think of offhand that have Marvel staffers as characters in the stories are FANTASTIC FOUR 176, and MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 60, both illustrated by George Perez and fun issues, that both include the Impossible Man (Marvel's version of Bat-Mite).
Issue 60 is beautifully inked by Gene Day, with Mark Gruenwald, Ralph Macchio and George Perez attending a party that is interrupted by a slugfest between the Thing and threats created by the Impossible man. The story also sports a really fun scene I mentioned earlier in the topic, with the Thing taking a shower, that re-enacts the famous shower scene in the Alfred Hitchcock's movie Psycho.
Story co-writers Mark Gruenwald and Ralph Macchio, and artist George Perez as characters in the story. A really fun issue, for those who haven't already read it. A follow-up lighter issue, after the "Pegasus Project" storyline in issues 53-58. The same writers and Perez/Day team also in a follow-up story in issues 64-66.
Three of which we've discussed here: BRAVE & THE BOLD 115, BRAVE & THE BOLD 124, and the "Super Sons" stories from scattered WORLD'S FINEST issues, from 1973-1979.
Lothar posted an image in the "Island of misfit Comic Images" topic way back, of an odd flamingly gay Superman hitting on Jimmy Olsen in the newsroom.
It was funny enough I googled it up to see what was behind it. It turns out, there actually was a SUPERGIRL 79 story in 2003, where Superman was exposed to "pink Kryptonite" that temporarily turned him gay.
Lothar posted an image in the "Island of misfit Comic Images" topic way back, of an odd flamingly gay Superman hitting on Jimmy Olsen in the newsroom.
It was funny enough I googled it up to see what was behind it. It turns out, there actually was a SUPERGIRL 79 story in 2003, where Superman was exposed to "pink Kryptonite" that temporarily turned him gay.
Another favorite cover of mine, for THE BEST OF DC digest issue 71, giving the year's best stories, as selected by DC's editors at the time. This was an annual issue , selecting each year the best stories published in 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, and this very last issue of the series, for the best stories of 1985.
Cover by Giffen and Kesel. I love this, Ambush Bug blindfolded with his back to the covers shown, throwing darts over his shoulder randomly to select the best stories !
Has anyone around here mentioned Marvel's GA hero, The Whizzer? A guy in a yellow costume and winged headpiece who gains superspeed from an injection of mongoose blood. That's right - mongoose blood.
Speaking of Marvel, the fact that Dr. Spectrum has his own series also goes on here.
I'd like to see a Whizzer story where he's arrested for urinating in the street (i.e., whizzing in public). Having a yellow costume would only add to the urine-gag. The Whizzer must have appeared elsewhere, but I only recall him from the 70's run of THE IINVADERS, outside of the Golden Age. And in AVENGERS and SQUADRON SUPREME. Although I'm sure he's appeared in other titles beyond that.
"The Super Sons" run in World's Finest in the 1970s. Teenaged sons of Superman and Batman who, according to the editors, were not a dream, not a hoax, not an imaginary story, but simply an heretounexplored aspect of our heroes' multi-faceted lives.
WTF?
Eventually, realizing that this facet should REMAIN unexplored, the writers and editor concocted ANOTHER WTF, explaining the sons away by stating they were a Fortress of Solitude computer simulation that Superman and Batman would sit around and watch for hours on end (yeah, that's MY idea of entertainment).
WTF?
Yep. I remember that one. Still have the issue of the latter. The sons found out they were creating all the disasters on Earth and simply jumped in a core of burning energy and that was that. Batman was crying at the end of the story...WTF? Indeed!!!
I just read this story for the first time over the weekend, in WORLD'S FINEST 263 (July 1980, story by Dennis O'Neil, pencilled by Rich Buckler, inked by Dick Giordano ). I was surprised to see a story of this substandard quality from the pen of Dennis O'Neil. It didn't add any originality to the story that multiple panels of Buckler's art throughout were swiped from several Neal Adams BATMAN stories (particularly BATMAN issues 232, 243, 244 and 245, B & B 79, and possibly other Adams books I'm less familiar with) A bit corny, but still fun reading.
The end kind of reminded me of the last 10 minutes of Terminator 2: Judgement Day, where the Super-sons willingly go to their final fate.
The first "super-sons" story was in WORLDS FINEST 215, so this story vehicle lasted roughly 50 issues, although many issues in this run featured Batman and Superman without the super-sons.
I dug these out of my collection recently and was looking at them again. There were a total of 12 "Super Sons" Batman/Superman stories,and here's a link to each of the complete individual issues :
215 by Haney and Dillin/Scarpelli, Jan 1973 216 Haney and Dillin/Anderson, Mar 1973 221 Haney and Dillin/Anderson, Feb 1974 222 Haney and Dillin/Colletta, Apr 1974 224 Haney and Dillin/Colletta, Aug 1974
228 Haney and Dillin/Blaisdell, Mar 1975 230 Haney and Swan/Blaisdell, Mar 1975 231 Haney and Dillin/Blaisdell, July 1975 233 Haney and Dillin/Calnan, Oct 1975 238 Haney and Dillin/Calnan, Jun 1976
242 Haney and Chan/Calnan, Dec 1976 263 O'Neil and Buckler/Giordano, Aug 1980
Especially compared to the other collected reprint books of Moebius' work. While designed with such a sophisticated look, the cover is so... well... phallic !
WB: My nominee WTF storyline was where whoever was scripting the book around 1988-1989, (Tom Defalco? David Michelinie? ) revealed (in total contradiction to all the past clues given to the character's identity) that Hobgoblin was [ XXXXXXXX ] (issue 289 )
.
GAH! Spoiler warning! .
Ooops !! Sorry TTT.
Since it's a story that's over 15 years old, I didn't put up the usual spoiler warnings.
In the future, I'll be more careful, for anyone who hasn't read a story referred to yet.
Believe me when I say your money is better spent elsewhere than on AMAZING SPIDERMAN 289.
Roger Stern eventually came back to Marvel and finished the story HIS way, but it was still pretty lame, and not up to usual Roger Stern standards. (In a three-issue HOBGOBLIN LIVES miniseries. Really dull, about two thirds of the series is incredibly dull and wordy flashback sequences, that really suck away any ability to get into the story.)
First book editor Danny Fingeroth drove Roger Stern away, ruining the original intended revelation of the Hobgoblin's identity by Stern, the only writer who really knew how to tell the story in a compelling and satisfying way. Then Tom Defalco tried to salvage the plotline and take it in a new direction. Then Jim Owsley (apparently a pen name used by Chris Priest in his early years as a writer and editor) took it in a completely different direction than Defalco intended, just to spite Defalco, who for some reason Owsley hated. And Tom Defalco never trusted Owsley, so he didn't tell Owsley who he really intended to reveal as the Hobgoblin. So when Owsley revealed the Hobgoblin's name in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 289 (and in Owsley's pre-emptive reveal before issue 289 in the SPIDER-MAN VS WOLVERINE one-shot), the joke was on Owsley, because Defalco never intended it to be that character, Defalco just misleadingly told Owsley that was who he intended Hobgoblin to be. And then future writers and editors tacked band-aids on band-aids on band-aids, trying to re-tell the Hobgoblin storyline into something salvageable, that could never in retrospect be salvaged.
I've always hated storylines hammered out by a committee of editors and writers, and crossover stories that run through multiple titles featuring the same character by multiple writers and artists. It only works when orchestrated by one person or creative team that truly care about the series and characters, such as Jim Starlin's CAPTAIN MARVEL and WARLOCK, or O'Neil/Adams' BATMAN, or Levitz/Giffen LEGION, or McGregor/Russell KILLRAVEN, or Jack Kirby's Fourth World series and KAMANDI runs.
Would that Roger Stern could have carried it out in his intended 26-issue storyline, as Stern originally planned. A great waste, because Roger Stern's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 224-251 is one of the best written and most engaging storylines I've ever read in 50 years of collecting. I couldn't wait for each new issue to come out during that run. When Roger Stern was driven off the series prematurely, readers were deprived of having that fantastic run reach its full and satisfying intended conclusion. I'll always remember what might have been.
--Dave t W B ]
.... carry on... 
![[Linked Image from i89.photobucket.com]](http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k218/ripleycat/supergirl3.jpg)
![[Linked Image from milehighcomics.com]](http://www.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/09754732392.71.jpg)
![[Linked Image from milehighcomics.com]](http://www.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/06381365136.153.jpg)
![[Linked Image from img.zgdhhjha.com]](https://img.zgdhhjha.com/comicscovers_repository/481000/96086001564130de882b0a58ae4c4dd3.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/28/3b/f8/283bf837b6189b224f0b4b93066da136.jpg)