Identity Crisis #6 Discussion (Spoilers Inside)

Ahem........I win.....

Pig Iron
i type a lot

Posts: 4129
Loc: Salma Hayek's Heaving Bosom #333756 Re: The long awaited ID CRISIS #4 thread has arrived! - Thu Sep 16 2004 09:47 PM

Yeah, agreed..I hope not.

If it is a hero...and not a villain..I propose Ray Palmer, The Atom. Sue was talking on the phone when she was attacked. Jean was also talking on the phone. The Atom travels across phone lines. Batman asked who benefits. If any hero benfits it's Ray because he seems to have been mindwiped as well. ray is continuously shown to be stupid in the comics and he is a physicist for goodness sakes. I didn't see him in dr Light's memory..when he was in the memory of everyone else...Batman took his place in the actual event...I assume The Atom wasn't even there and they mind fucked him to be there when he really wasn't..which led to his divorce from Jean and fucked up his life..notice that Jean didn't die......The Atom was a better friend and could hav edealt with the situation better than Batman..so they made him the seventh man by default......they lied to him and abused his trust.

So, it is The Shade or The Atom.

***************************************************************************

Although my reasoning could be off..I hope it isn't mind control by a villain..that would be lame.

There's an old hoary plot device in TV cop shows where a guy "becomes" a serial killer and kills several people including the one person he really wants to see dead. He does this so that the police assume his "real" victim is simply a random victim of the serial killer.

Maybe Ray killed Sue, etc., so that when Jean was attacked, no one would suspect him, the ex-husband (typically a prime suspect in ANY murder case, especially when you consider he just signed half his patents over to her in issue one).

Ray then "rescued" Jean as a ploy to get her--and/or his patents--back.

Using that logic, then, G-Man... why get Boomerang out of the picture?

It makes Boomerang look like the killer and closes the case.

It's gunna take some explaining, but I'm not against Atom being the bad guy if it's done right. I guess now we know why Brad said Geoff Johns was going to be angry at the outcome, considering how much he's used Ray in conjunction with Hawkman and made him more than he had been lately.

Yeah, what the Doctor said.

I love the Batman angle on this. It so explains the formation of the Outsiders. I'm interested to see what Batman fans think of it.

And this is why of course the story is only concerned with the second and third tier characters. Batman Superman and WW all have to remian on speaking terms, I'd guess: but there is no reason why Batman should even wish to co-operate with or do any favours for the likes of Zatanna, Hawkman, Black Canary, Green Arrow, or even Elongated Man. Especially Zatanna. In fact, he has very good reason to hound all of them.You'd think he'd be out to put some of his so-called friends and colleagues in a prison over this.

Actually, it's been implied that there will be a major break between the big three. Maybe the other two knew and said nothing, or maybe they'll have different opinions on what happened.

That would mess up the Batman/Superman title, though.

I doubt it's the Atom because I find it hard to believe that Meltzer would reveal the mastermind at this point of the series. He seems to have a penchant for misdirecting the reader and I question if he's doing that again.

Plus, seeing as how DC is bringing back Hal Jordan and ending any possibility of him becoming Paralax again it's difficult to believe DC would go down the hero-turned-villain road again after taking heat for Paralax.

I question if we'll EVER learn who the mastermind is, which would be an interesting twist. In the real world, there's always unsolved murders. Why not in comics?

Also, I think in the last issue Brad will want to show the consequences of the JLA's actions with Dr. Light and Batman. What might be possible is Batman subconsciously manipulating the Calculator. The Calculator has stated he's been paid for all of this, and Wayne Enterprises certainly has the money. After seeing the protocols he set up to take down the JLA as well as the gangs in Gotham City in the recent Wargames arc it's entirely possible Batman's behind this. Motivations? Not much, but again the moral of the story would be that the JLA can't play God.

What's the Atom's motivations? I can't come up with any.

IC#6 basically explains why Batman changed from his Silver Age team player persona to the darker, loner who has a plan on how to take out everyone of the JLA if they went rogue.

And, again, based on that description I don't like it one bit.

Why not?

G-Man, are you really Mr. Horse from Ren & Stimpy?

Again, I want to give it the benefit of the doubt, since I haven't read it.

However, so far, it just doesn't pass the "gut test" for me, the feeling I have, based on almost 40 years of being a Batman fan, as to what works for Batman and what doesn't.

First off, I worry that DC is now decreeing that the loner Batman-the guy who supposedly began his career in "Batman Year One"-is going to be replaced, yet again, with "Superfriend Batman."

Second, the idea of the last quarter century of Bat-continuity being basically due to a "mind fuck" is just a little too "spider-clone" for me.

Third, and most importantly, it seems an overly complicated--almost "past his prime John Byrne" way--of explaining why Batman goes from being a loner (at the beginning of his career) to team player back to loner when the "old" explanation worked pretty well. In real life, most of us have been in groups, or had friends, that we stopped getting along with. Were we all "mind wiped"? Of course not.

And, perhaps, more importantly, the old explanation fit quite well with the central conceit of Batman: that he is the way he is because of his parents' murder.

Batman watched his parents die in front him, scarring him for life and leaving him an orphan. There are case studies of orphans that show they are often plagued by inabilities to form close relationships.

As an orphan and victim of a violent crime, it would be hardly surprising that Batman would leery of others, a loner and prone to pushing people away.

Meltzer seems intent to replace that basic, powerful, bit of real psychology and pathos with retcons and convoluted theories.

And that bothers me.

I'm proposing that somehow Ray Palmer got stupid as well. Think about the fact that he has patents and is a physicist...why does he always act like such a goofy clown who doesn't know anything? His motivation couldn't be his patents because Jean was giving them back. She is independent again and doesn't need Ray. She only gets back with him because of the situation. A phone call was made previous to both murder attempts...I'm not even counting Drake's. The Atom was not in any picture of the beating of Dr Light...not w/ Batman or without him in the picture. Batman was there when it happened, why wouldn't Green Lantern, Arrow and Canary insist that Batman be in on the vote since they were against using the mind warping of Light anyway. Green Arrow also stated that Batman had used questionable or mind altering tactics on the League after his own. What did Batman do? Does it relate to why Drake was targeted? Batman has Mad Hatter and Hugo Strange technology in the cave I'm sure....Did Batman at one time mess with Ray's mind to get the truth of a suspected misdead by the League to only be foiled again in a cyclical mind warping? This is mostly speculation.....

There is also the science involved in the Atom shrinking...as Dave has pointed out several times....could it be changing or screwing with his brain? There is only one hero with something to gain in this situation and it is the Atom and what he wanted was Jean back and needing him...it certainly wasn't the patents , she signed those back to him. He is always a third wheel, never appreciated and left a lesser-not a better- man because of his time with teh League. You could say the JLA destroyed his life.

I'm not saying that Meltzer won't pull out another card like Mirror Master or the Shade, but I think this is all about the heroes and returning the villains to serious threat levels. Ray Palmer may be a red herring, but I doubt it...the last issue is only 40 pgs and I think bringing in a new suspect and resolving it in that space would be a let down..if not impossible.

Ah, but see, he's not actually "replacing" anything. Whathat he 's doing is just bringing in deeper insight into the characters and what they've done over the years. "Post-Crisis" loner Batman still joined the JLA, stayed with them for years, and later quit to form the Outsiders due to dissatisfaction with the League's methods. This all still holds true with IC. Only now we've been given deeper insight into some of the whys and wherefores of their behavior. Batman's brief softening of personality during his tenure in the satellite era still holds, as does his reversion to the loner personality later on. We've now got more of a reason for his shying away from the League for so long as well as his growing paranoia and the development of his "JLA Protocols" ala Tower of Babel. It all still holds and true and it all makes sense. Unlike the Spider Clone Saga.

Just got it and I couldn't help myself, I read it in the car. Holee shit, the Atom?! He stepped in (ON!) her brain! That's just...wow. I'll have to post more later, I need to re-read this. If it really was Palmer as the killer on his own accord, it couldn't be because he wanted his patents back, Jean was signing them back anyway. Damn, what a mindblowing issue.

If you've got the issue right in front of you, look at the front page of the paper Jean is reading. I believe it has something to do with her divorce with Ray and going public. That could also have been a factor for Sue's death.

You mean the People magazine framed and hanging on the wall. We don't know what she's reading in the paper.

She's reading the comic section Grimm, what else?

heh.

Note the different styles that Rags uses when drawing Batman this issue. When we first see him, he seems to be similar to the Brian Bolland or Graham Nolan versions with maybe a hint of Kelly Jones.

In the flashback portion, he seems more like the Neal Adams or Irv Novick era Batman. Just one reason why I like Rags' art so much. Attention to detail.

When I saw it was the Atom (possibly) I flipped. Good guys always going bad. Makes you wonder. Well, not wonder really, but the cliche becomes tiresome. Never so much as like a villain becoming good. That becomes a tad bit more interesting. Hank of Hawk and Dove, Obsidian, Parallax, Nuklon, and the Atom. Whatever.

Making him a villain is interesting, but a killer? Let's address this from the standpoint of a writer. The story has been rather well-written, because it points out most of the emotions and strains people would face in these certain situations (grief, denial, need for revenge, nostalgia). Being well-written, it has to explain WHY Ray Palmer would reduce himself to actually KILLING Sue Dibney. I mean, the evidence is there, and so is the motive (small footprints in her brain, getting back with his wife through reconciliation).

He is one of the smartest JLA members, and he could have made several deductions (capable-wise), like what would happen, and finding a necessary culprit/patsy for the crime (Captain Boomerang).

But it goes back to the whole thing of being cold-blooded. Who would have three people killed just to get back with his wife (plus having his ex-wife hanged, and Lois shot?--Sorry, I read ahead).

Plus, I go back to what Hal/Spectre said. If Brad's writing is as good and meticulous as he aspires to be, then Hal would have left a contributing detail by telling Ollie to get them and make sure they pay. That's plural, folks.

So, even if those footprints are Ray Palmer's, I believe there is considerably more left to this story than simply chasing him down through phonelines. A last-second confession? I don't know. Again, Lois still has to be shot (by who?), Bruce, Diana, and Clark have to stop liking each other, and some other parties have to be revealed. I think a lot of this comes down to Bruce.

Maybe the Atom was already a villain, and Bruce changed it around to put him in the league. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

I was kind of thinking Mr. Mind was involved. I am clueless. "That's right, now stomp REALLY hard."

A friend of mine suggested to me another "Suicide Squad" tie-in, as - according to him - there were experiments done in the Suicide Squad concerning something called "Project: Atom". (Mind you, I know nothing of this. I'm just going by what he told me.) Still, is this a possibility?

Also, what do Luthor's suit and Bolt buying it have to do with this whole thing? I was leafing through Issue #1 today and thought about that. Was this just something Meltzer used as a 'throwaway' or is there a point to it? 'Throwaway' doesn't seem like his style (he's not, after all, Jeph Loeb), so I'm thinking there might be something to it.

...but what?

I really think there's got to be someone else involved. Sue was killed first, then torched. Unless Ray can start fires on a molecular level, I think someone else started that fire. Though Ray starting it could be interesting.

I believe it was in Justice League #57 when The Atom first developed the power of lighting a match.

Solicitations has it as being used for a story by either Teen Titans or Outsiders. One of them goes out to hunt down the armor. I think part of the job given by Brad was to create an excellent story with a lot of dangling ropes for other writers to make use of. Better villains, new rivalries, new feuds, etc.

Solicitations mentioned how Lois is going to get Shot in #7. I don't think she dies. That would be too cool.

Superman
But Diana and Bruce don't particularly seem interested in consoling Clark. He had a hand in this somewhere.

Flash
The new Captain Boomerang, a speedster, creates a tougher enemy for Wally West. I doubt they will mention who his mother is. That will be up to the writer of Flash. But I suspect an affair or something (rape)--looking at Zoom and Iris.

Green Arrow
He has to deal with Deathstroke as a potential enemy now. Great. Plus Merlyn and others. Maybe a falling out with the league.

Hawkman
Likewise, he has to deal with problems with the league. Was his mind tampered with? Did he really have adventures with Ray Palmer? The whole Ray thing is going to create problems for that comic--this may find its way to JSA

I am just touching some stuff, but Brad's 7 issues have done a better job for DC than anything since Crisis (in terms of stirring things in a POSITIVE way). Zero hour fucked things up. I think this was just the nice kick the line-up needed.

The nice thing about this series is how it creates SO much potential for restarting/reviving interesting in some characters' origins. Tampering with history and their minds leads room to wonder who, if anyone, might have originally been a villain (If you read the Flash, there was this guy, the Top). Were there members of the JLA who were criminals, rounded up, and brainwashed? Could the Justice League have really been just as bad as the Crime Syndicate, but with a bunch of people brainwashed (ala Squadron Supreme). Brad opened the door for this.

I doubt DC would be so bold, but that would be a nice thing. Suspicion as to who was really good/bad, etc. Was the Flash merely another Johnny Quick or something? Doubtful. I am just having fun pondering. I mean, if a writer chooses to mess around with the Atom, then you can mess around with a lot of other characters. Maybe Arthur hated humans and was going to go to war with them. I like this.

The Scarlet Witch did it!

SPOILER SPACE, DAMMIT!!!

Seriously, though... I'd love to see the new Boomerang (if they call him 'Boomer', I think I might just hurl) go up against Robin as the two would undoubtedly have a vendetta against one another, seeing as how their fathers killed one another. This would give the Bat-writers (hopefully not Winnick) something to work with, though I'd rather see either Robin's own creative team (or maybe even the Titans) tackle something like that. Personally, I'd like to see Robin have a new superpowered nemesis rather than the Flash (though, he should take on the Flash too... just for the sake of fairness).

To quote Kappei Yamaguchi: Baka, baka, baka.

How about Baby Boomer(ang)?

I'd be surprised if Ray was responsible. The reveal is too early.

It's Jean.

1)She has access to Rays inventions, including his shrinking belt.

2) With all the mention of the black market, this could have been a demonstration on the usefulness of Rays inventions for criminal use.

3) She was the second person to be attacked. what better way of keeping yourself off the suspect list than faking your own murder attempt? Think about it, how did she get to the phone and call Ray when the killer jumped behind the door and blindfolded and gagged her as soon as she went inside? It was done to make the heros feel sympathetic and keep them off her back.

4) Batman sounds more concerned for Rays safety than capturing him. Why call him and tell him to stay right where he is if he is indeed the murderer? Batman has to know Ray would try and escape if he was warned early.

Very good. I approve.

Talk at Newsarama has some strong theories in support of Jean as the killer. She has motivation (wanting super-heroes to do things differently concerning loved ones), she has the 'tool' (Ray's belt), and the time frame fits (she probably did it while 'waiting' for Ray to show up). Interesting shtuff. Though she'd have to have figured out how to start a fire on a sub-atomic level for Sue to be torched. Course that may not be the case.

I wonder if there's more to Batman not wanting J'onn in his head.

In issue one the person is standing over Sue's body while they light her on fire. So the person is not subatomic when they set Sue on fire.

I just don't read it quite that way. Batman was always dark, at least he's been retconned dark, so I don't really buy the interpretation that Zee's mindwipe suddenly turned him dark. His whole MO is the dark and mysterious thing, straight from the origin, right? His whole mindset comes from trauma and darkness, Always has, always should.

It would be funnier if the mindwipe turned him into the goofy, 50's 'old chum' Batman!

I don't think the mindwipe made him "dark" since obviously he always was dark. I think what a lot of people think is that, on a subconscious level, the mindwipe made him feel dissent for teams. That's why he went from team-friendly to loner.

Perxaclty.

It's also why he made plans to take on the other superheroes if they ever crossed the line.

Talk at Millarworld also identifies Jean as the killer, mostly because it would be hard to call for the Atom on a phone while blindfolded and strangling.

TEEN TITANS #21

Written by Geoff Johns; Art by Mike McKone and Marlo Alquiza

Part 1 of the 3-part "Lights Out," an IDENTITY CRISIS follow-up story! Doctor Light has forced the Titans' hand and staged a publicized battle with the young heroes to take back his reputation. But as the Titans fall, help arrives in the form of two young heroes. Get ready for the debut of the new Hawk and Dove!

DC Universe | 32pg. | Color | $2.50 US

On Sale February 16, 2005

OUTSIDERS #21

Written by Judd Winick; Art by Carlos D'Anda; Cover by Doug Mahnke

A shocking IDENTITY CRISIS follow-up guest-starring Batman and featuring guest art by Carlos D'Anda (ACTION COMICS)! Nightwing and Batman have a confrontation that could change the future of the team! Meanwhile, Arsenal has his own secret meeting with Batman that threatens to splinter the team forever!

DC Universe | 32pg. | Color | $2.50 US

On Sale February 23, 2005

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?dat=20050201&s=31

I'm personally not happy with Elongated Man's very existence as a comic book character, let alone the concept that he would usurp Batman's role as DC continuity's pre-eminent detective.

I'm not alone! Thank you, Dave. My life now makes sense again.

Well, Batman solves everything. At least let Ralph be the one to figure out who killd his wife. Throw him a frickin' bone!

From everything we've seen of him in the last few issues, I could walk into his house and steal everything he owned right from under his mystery-twitchin' nose and he'd still be in no condition to do anything about it...

"Throw him a bone"? If Wanted's the Killer every made it to the DCU, you'd want him to jam a grenade down Elongated Man's throat and leap out of the way while he exploded into a million quivering wobbly pieces of jello.

Such is my distaste for the character.

I used to not like him either. Dumb powers, dumb origin. Then James Robinson used him in Starman, and actually got me to like Ralph.

Ralph-lover!

Lover of Ralph!

You do know "Dibny" is a German name, don't you?

Every character is capable of being used well, of course, but there are some more deserved of being used well than others.

I never thought much of him, then a few years ago I bought up the JLE stuff and really came to like him and Sue.

I've just read the new Starman trade which brought him into the series. Weird to read them now.

I knew of E-man but not of Sue's existence. I'm thinking I may have to pick up some JLE stuff. Maybe Formerly Known as the Justice League. Was it any good?

Yes. That was the comic that got me to like Elongated Man and Sue.

The Justice League Europe run was the original Ralph/Sue combo series for our generation. FKATJL was hilarious in its own right, but, there's more JLE material than a six-issue mini. That's my suggestion for the Sue/Ralph duo.

Also, didn't Meltzer say that in this series, Ralph would be at the forefront of the investigation? I rememeber the hype in all of these interviews that Ralph would take center-stage for this story. Well, where the hell is he?

Another nod for the it's Jean theory. Look at issue #3, page 29, panel 6. Specifically, the hands tying Jean's gag. Now, the way the hands are drawn suggests that if there is someone gagging Jean (as opposed to Jean tying it herself), then the hands appear to be in a rather awkward position.

My roommate just pointed out that anyone tying a gag from behind would put his/her hands in a similar position. If she were tying her own gag, chances are more likely that she'd have the palms of her hands facing toward her... unless she's trying to throw off the artist and the readers.

The other thing I think is key is Jean's hands during her hanging. They're not tied or anything. Now, the killer would've had to blindfold, gag, and then string Jean up all while her hands were free. One would assumed she would try to hit or claw at her assailant; yet when we see Ray save her in issue four, there's not a scratch on him that I can see.

Yes... but where would she put the gloves that the killer was seen wearing?

Do you think Jean attempted to hang herself? The positioning of the hands at the end of issue 3 indicate otherwise.

Me, I just think her hands are lovely. I wonder what kind of moisturizer she uses.

Pearl Cream

She'll need a shitload of it now to get over that suntan.

I think we should try to start some Sue Dibney jokes. They don't need to be good ones

Q: What does "DIBNEY" stand for?
A: "Died Incinerated in Badly Narrated and Expensive Yearly event".

Q: What does Sue Dibney and Carson from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy have in common?
A: Both have taken it in the face from flamers.

Q: What's black and blocks up your shower drain?
A: Sue Dibney's corpse.

Just as there is no "I" in "team", there is no "E" in Dibny...

Go on then, ruin my joke.

Q: What is the difference betwen Sue Dibny and a golfball?

A: While both have been injected with rubber, golf balls don't burn very well.

Bastard.

Q: What does "SUE" stand for in the name "Sue Dibny"?
A: "Seared in Unintelligible Elongated man story"

Q: What is tall, frothy, and sold in the Starbucks on Apokolips?
A: Double Mochachino with Sue Dibney sprinkles.

....fuck!

Q: What new superpower did Sue Dibny get in Identity Crisis?
A: The ability to slowly melt marshmellows.

Oil of Olay, obviously.

I flipped thorugh IC 6 today in the store. Batman's sequence of deduction didn't make much sense to me, but the sheer gall in wiping his memory was incredible - not just the characters, but DC's editors in allowing this. I guess with what has happened in War Games, it makes sense that Batman is going to be totally alone, isolated even from his peers in the JLA.

My guess is that we get to see the Atom on the run next issue, and possibly the full potential of what someone who can shrink can do. Will the Atom pop in someone's head, and expand to full size? I can't see Jean Loring being responsible - she doesn't have the same motive.

Editors? What editors?!? You mean those guys hiding under their desks, refusing to do their job?

You don't like it, don't read it. No one's twisting your arm...

Is she what Bendis refers to as a dickbag?

I thought she already signed them back to Ray in issue #1?

She did! As for getting Jean back, there has to be an easier way than killing Sue, strangling Jean (the woman he's trying to get back) and making sure Jack Drake and Capt. Boomerang kill each other.

Quote:

King Snarf said:
As for getting Jean back, there has to be an easier way than killing Sue, strangling Jean (the woman he's trying to get back) and making sure Jack Drake and Capt. Boomerang kill each other.

Yeah, but that's assuming he isn't insane.

I still say this ties into the black market somehow. I don't think Meltzer would just throw that one in for no reason.

OTOH, the series keeps coming back to characters being mind wiped and how that messed with them more than the heroes thought.

It made Dr. Light a goofball. It (allegedly) made Batman slightly more paranoid.

What if Ray was mindwiped at some point and it made him crazier than they thought?

After all, constantly shrinking to a subatomic level could really eff a guy's brain up to being with.

True, but the series also deals with wants, hopes, desires, and consequences. Like I said, it just doesn't sit well with me. Besides, if it were the Atom, it would cheapen the monologues the Atom gives in issues #2 & 4.

Getting back to the crazy Ray theory:

In the "Strange Case of Julian September" arc in JLA, Atom was asked how, when he was smaller than a light particle, could he see.

Atom replied that "the five senses become something else entirely at [the] quantum level...your mind's doing you a favor, processing [everything] into familiar visuals so you won't go insane."

So, and I'm just throwing this out, what if they mind wiped Ray in such a way at some point that it interfered with his mind's ability to process information as above.

He'd go insane.

Quote:

Stupid Dogg said:
I still say this ties into the black market somehow. I don't think Meltzer would just throw that one in for no reason.

I concur.

I need to dig out issue one and re-read it again, but after re-reading issue six today, I still think Ray's the killer.

On the last two pages where we see Jean and Ray discussing Sue's murder, Ray is in the other room, Jean can't see him, and he has the most malevolent grin on his face. Either Rags really screwed up drawing Ray's facial features (conveying evil glee when he meant to convey something else) or Ray is gloating over having murdered Sue and having gotten away with it.

That doesn't mean the stolen technology isn't somehow tied into it (I still think Ray's patents have something to do with this story) but Ray looks guilty as hell.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

BTW, for unintentionally creepy moments, the scene where Tim disrobes from his Robin costume prior to getting to his father was subtly disturbing.

Not only does it mean that Tim took the time to pull off his tights while his father was lying in a pool of his own blood, but we ended up with a full page panel of Batman clutching an underwear clad, crying, teenaged boy to his chest, and whispering "I've got you."

Somewhere, Dr. Wertham's ghost is screaming "See, Dammit, I TOLD you people...!!!"

Heh! That scene even screwed with Meltzer's head:

Quote:

Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 9:41 am:

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Well, it's finally here -- issue 6 of Identity Crisis -- the one issue I was waiting so long to see print. You have any idea what it's like to sit on a secret for over a year?

So glad you're all reading and enjoying. The comments have meant such a great deal to us all. And when it comes to that splash page of Batman and Robin, I told Rags it's the best shot of the
whole book. Was one of only two times i looked at the page and got a chill, totally forgetting that i was working on the book. I told him to
have him embracing him in the shards of him uniform. I wanted him swallowed by his strength. But making Tim's one eye face the camera... That was all Rags. And the most unnerving moment in the whole series
for me.
One more to go...

Much love,

Dear me. That hadn't occurred to me before.

Quote:

Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 9:41 am:

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Well, it's finally here -- issue 6 of Identity Crisis -- the one issue I was waiting so long to see print. You have any idea what it's like to sit on a secret for over a year?

Hmmm...Note how Brad seems to be saying "whew, with issue six I no longer have a secret about who the killer is."

Since issue six hints that Ray is the killer, this quote would seem to be a confirmation that Ray is no red herring.

unless he's talking about something else, like the character deaths, or the League mindwiping Bats.

I agree with G-man - it seems that the Atom is in fact the culprit.

I also suspect the Atom will remain at large. Superman might be able to track him with his microscopic vision, but how else do you catch someone too small to lay your hands upon? Unless, I suppose, Zatanna says "Mota niager lamron thgieh".

Green Arrow is the protagonist in this story, and I also suspect we will see the Atom explain himself and his motives to GA.

Quote:

Grimm said:
unless he's talking about something else, like the character deaths, or the League mindwiping Bats.

You know, that's really quite something isn't it? They treated him as if he was like Dr Light.

Interesting too that Deathstroke can take out the same collection of people but Batman could not.

Quote:

Grimm said:
unless he's talking about something else, like the character deaths, or the League mindwiping Bats.

However, if that was the case, he could have made that comment about nearly every issue of the series, since nearly every issue had one surprise or another, from Sue's Death, to the mindwiping of Dr. Light, to the mindwiping of the entire Secret Society of Supervillains, to the son of Capt. Boomerang having speed, to the death of Jack Drake, to Batman being mindwiped, to...well, you get the idea.

BTW, notice the one hero who was deliberately decoyed with a false threat on his wife was Superman, coincidentally the one hero with...microscopic vision.

Quote:

Dave said:
Interesting too that Deathstroke can take out the same collection of people but Batman could not.

Well, Deathstroke had prep time, Batman didn't.

Which might be Brad's subtle way of explaining why the modern Batman is such a bug on having it.

Quote:

Dave said:
I agree with G-man - it seems that the Atom is in fact the culprit.

I also suspect the Atom will remain at large. Superman might be able to track him with his microscopic vision, but how else do you catch someone too small to lay your hands upon? Unless, I suppose, Zatanna says "Mota niager lamron thgieh".

Green Arrow is the protagonist in this story, and I also suspect we will see the Atom explain himself and his motives to GA.

He writes a damn good GA. Anybody read Archer's Quest? Well worth checking out.

Quote:

Dave said:
I agree with G-man - it seems that the Atom is in fact the culprit.

how else do you catch someone too small to lay your hands upon? Unless, I suppose, Zatanna says "Motao niaager lamron thgieh".

?sdrow ruof esoht etirw ot ouy ekat ti did gnol woH

Gnol oot.

...eurt tub daS

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Dave said:Intriguing that GA thinks Batman might have doen the same thing to the JLA.....

Didn't Batman try to autopsy Ollie after Ollie returned from the dead?

I could see that having the effect of making Ollie just a little bit bitter about Bats

Anyway...I just pulled out IC#1 and reread it.

Ray showed up at Jean's house exactly one hour after Sue was killed.

Ray mentions that he's an hour late for his meeting with Jean.

It is also mentioned that, when Ray is subatomic, his signal device doesn't always work.

OTOH, Ray looks genuinely sad at the funeral.

There's also the fact that Ray goes with the mindwipers to capture Dr. Light, as if he's one of the group that mindwiped them in the first place.

However, whenever there is a flashback to that scene, you don't see Ray there.

Curious.

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the G-man said:
However, whenever there is a flashback to that scene, you don't see Ray there.

Don't forget we are talking about a guy who can become subatomic and, thus, invisible to the naked eye. Perhaps that's why he's not 'pictured'...

We do see Ray in the flashback scene. During the battle when all the Leaguers are attacking Light at once, Ray is attacking Light, along with the trick arrows, the big green boxing glove, etc.

He's also on Hawkman's shoulder when they take the vote. He's one of the ones who voted to alter Light's persona, along with Hawkman, Barry, and Zee. So, yes, he was there when they did the deed.

He's talking of that one specific image of the entire League (and Batman) fighting Dr. Light, I think.

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Chewy Walrus said:
He's talking of that one specific image of the entire League (and Batman) fighting Dr. Light, I think.

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The GMan sayeth: Anyway...I just pulled out IC#1 and reread it. . .

. . .There's also the fact that Ray goes with the mindwipers to capture Dr. Light, as if he's one of the group that mindwiped them in the first place.

However, whenever there is a flashback to that scene, you don't see Ray there.

My bad.

BTW, can someone explain to me how Dr. MidNite, who is BLIND, was able to look through a microscope and see teeny tiny footprints in Sue's brain?

And don't tell me but he can see in the dark. A microscope works with a LIT object.

You understand that the lenses in his glasses allow him to see in normal conditions, right?

He's not BLIND. His eyes are attuned to different visual spectrum.

Actually, no.

I don't read JSA and my knowledge of Dr. M comes from reprints of the original golden age character.

I believe originally the character's lenses only allowed him to see in the dark.

I didn't realize it was different now.

Yeah, I would have to drag out the mini series to be able to explain it properly, but that's basically it.

You should check out the trade, actually. Matt Wagner wrote it and very little he's done that isn't worth reading.

I didn't even know there was a Dr Mid-nite miniseries/trade.

Yep. It began life as an Elseworlds, before TPTB decided it was eligible to fit into mainstream "continuity."

It's very good. There's even a nice little tribute to Archie Goodwin (God rest his soul).

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Grimm said:
[Dr. Mid Nite] began life as an Elseworlds

Yeah, I think I read it and didn't realize it was now a mainstream continuity book.

That was a good book. I rather enjoyed it.

I note that this week's LITG repeats the rumor that its Jean.

Looking at the pages of Ray's rescue of Jean again, I am starting to lean toward this theory.