Beyond Batman R.I.P.The Dark Knight's editor discusses RIP, Last Rites and Battle for the Cowl.
by Dan Phillips
December 3, 2008 - With the conclusion of Grant Morrison and Tony Daniel's Batman RIP sending such shockwaves throughout the comic book community, it'd be a bit of an understatement to say there's some controversy and interest currently surrounding the Batman franchise. That being the case, IGN Comics decided to hunt down the man behind the Batman line of books, editor Mike Marts, and pick his brains about the current state of all things Bat-related.
We spoke with Marts about the controversial Batman #681, his role in overseeing the Bat-Universe and the wide variety of highly anticipated Batman projects DC has in store for fans. So get ready to hear the Head Bat Honcho himself dish about everything from RIP to Neil Gaiman's "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" to Battle for the Cowl, and everything in between!
IGN Comics: So as I understand it, Grant Morrison set the groundwork for RIP back when Peter Tomasi was editing the Bat-books. How did the transition between Tomasi and yourself take place? I'm interested in how an editorial transition like this is handled, specifically with a storyline as detailed and thoroughly planned as RIP and Morrison's run in general.
Mike Marts: With this particular storyline, Grant had so much of it in place from the beginning of his run on Batman that when I came on board it was a matter of catching up and getting plugged into the general direction that Grant was heading. The transition was great. You know, Pete had been thinking about going fulltime freelance for a while, and when the opportunity presented itself to him, it was the right time. I couldn't have asked for a better person to work on the books before me, because everything was in great shape and Pete made it extremely easy for me to get acquainted with the storylines, the outlines and the creators that were working on the books. So the transition went extremely well, I thought. Sometimes it can be rocky depending on the circumstances and where the previous editor is going, but this time around it was great. And because Pete is a fulltime exclusive writer for us, he was available to me in the weeks following in case I had questions.
IGN Comics: What was your immediate reaction when you heard about and got caught up with Grant's long term plans for Batman?
Marts: I was excited the same way I was excited as a young reader. I had worked with Grant before on New X-Men for a few years at Marvel as his editor, so I was accustomed to his method of storytelling, the way that he maps out his long epics and the way he adds in twists and turns and red herrings, keeping readers captivated each issue and continually surprising them. But when I learned where he wanted to take Batman and Batman's supporting characters, and what he wanted to do with RIP, even though I was used to his method of storytelling, I was still surprised and excited by it. It made me want to get to the end right away.
IGN Comics: Seeing as you had worked with Grant before on New X-Men, I think it's probably safe to assume you guys knew going in that RIP would be a controversial and divisive storyline. That said, did you anticipate some people's confusion over what actually happened in the story and that last issue?
Marts: Well, you know, with the amount of things we were dealing with in this story, I'm not surprised that readers had questions. But I think that's always part of Grant's plan. Grant is a master at teasing story tidbits and story information, and he's very good at satisfying the reader up until a certain point, but always leaves them wanting more. So I think that the way Grant structured Batman #681 was intentional in that he wanted to come full circle on certain parts of the story and wanted to resolve certain things, but also wanted to leave readers saying, "Huh? What's next?" That was very intentional on his part.
[Editor's Note: Because so many of you readers have questions about Batman RIP and #681, at this point Dan asked Mike to clarify a number of very specific plot-oriented questions. They included whether or not Dr. Hurt was the Devil, whether Thomas Wayne was ever a member of the Black Glove organization, the meaning and implications of the final epilogue page, and a few other matters. Mike's response was to smile cryptically, plead the fifth and tell readers to stay tuned. However, he did offer up the following concession. – Rich]
Marts: I would say that all signs are pointing towards Dr. Hurt not being Thomas Wayne.
IGN Comics: Okay, now that we got that out of the way, I can ask some more answerable questions: What should fans expect from these two upcoming "Last Rites" issues?
Marts: Good question. The two "Last Rites" issues that Grant is doing – Batman #682 and #683 – are drawn by guest penciller Lee Garbett, who's going to be our regular artist on Outsiders starting in February. These two issues kind of serve a dual purpose. They act as a swan song for Batman RIP, and at the same time, they tie-into the events of Final Crisis and Batman's involvement in Final Crisis. Additionally, these two issues act as a sort of retrospective of the career of Bruce Wayne as Batman throughout all the different eras and all his different adversaries and allies and supporting characters.
IGN Comics: What about as far as filling in some of the questions and confusion over RIP?
Marts: I'll say that some questions will be answered in these two issues. Other questions will definitely be left unanswered for some time. But I will also say that these two issues will definitely pose some new questions that readers weren't expecting upon finishing Batman RIP.
IGN Comics: So in general, "Last Rites" will be a retrospective and a bridge to Final Crisis, with some answers about RIP peppered throughout?
Marts: Yes. I think readers will be satisfied to learn certain things throughout the story, but will definitely walk away with a few new things that will puzzle them.
IGN Comics: I want to talk a little about the RIP tie-ins. Is it safe to assume that the majority of the RIP tie-ins that came out over the past few months were taking place after Batman #681?
Marts: Some of it has been. The Batman and the Outsiders tie-in that Frank Tieri and Ryan Benjamin did definitely took place following the events of #681. On the flip side of that, the Detective Comics tie-in [by Paul Dini and Dustin Nyugen] took place before. The Robin RIP arc, for the most part, was happening simultaneously with certain parts of RIP.
IGN Comics: What about the current "Search for a Hero" arc in Robin? That takes place after #681 as well?
Marts: Yes. That wasn't a technical tie-in to RIP, but yeah, it takes place after.
IGN Comics: Were you worried at all about having to roll some of these stories out before RIP concluded, or was that a necessary evil from a publishing standpoint?
Marts: It was a combination of it being a necessary evil, but it was also intentional on our parts, in that we wanted it to tell some stories that took place after #681 so readers got an indication of where things were headed, and to suggest an idea of threat or a sense of doom that might be on the horizon. With a storyline that's titled RIP, and with all the death and destruction imagery we've been using on the covers, we didn't want to be shy or try to keep secret that we were heading in a certain direction. And so setting some of those stories afterwards was definitely intentional.
IGN Comics: Keeping track of how the timelines of each monthly book line up in the greater scheme of things is tricky enough as a reader, and I imagine it would be even more difficult as an editor. How do you go about keeping track of how each book lines up with the others without getting a giant headache?
Marts: It is a tricky job. On the one hand, you've got a group of books that are a family of titles, such as the Batman family of titles. In this event, we were trying to involve all the books and have them be a part of this major event. At the same time, you want all the books to sort of stand on their own and have their own distinct voices, and allow the creators to tell their own stories. I think the RIP tie-ins that we did this past year succeeded in maintaining that distinct voice for each title while also tying into the family feel of it.
As far as the precise continuity and figuring out where each story takes place, we know that almost all of our readers have been with us for a while, and all our readers are intelligent. And we don't want to really insult our readers by banging them over the head with a precise timeline of "this is when this happens, and this is when that happens." For the most part, we figure that they'll be able to situate the stories where they feel comfortable situating them in their heads. But the whole time we have a solid idea of what storyline takes place first and in what order. For the most part, if we can release them in a chronological fashion, and have them come out according to when the stories take place, great. But in the cases where that's not a possibility, we leave it up to the readers to figure out how best to fit it in.
IGN Comics: Grant has stated that he didn't conceive of Batman RIP as supporting any tie-ins. As an editor, how did you go about deciding how each tie-in arc would relate to his story? Was that something you consulted the different series' writers about?
Marts: Yes. Originally, I think that was what Grant envisioned. And then sometime around the New York Comic-Con last year we talked to Grant about the possibility of having the other books tie-in thematically. Then after speaking with Grant, we approached each of the other writers individually. Sometimes we had specific ideas in mind about how certain characters and books would play into things, and other times we went to the writers to see if they had ideas of their own. But I was happy with what we came up with.
IGN Comics: The Robin and Nightwing series both end in February with "Last Rites" tie-ins, and even though the characters will obviously be moving on to other books, I think fans are curious what to expect from those final issues. Will these books be more of a finale to a chapter in both these characters' careers, or a launching point into their next chapter, which I assume will include Battle for the Cowl?
Marts: We have Birds of Prey, Nightwing and Robin all coming to an end, and each of these three final issues serve three different purposes. The first one is that they're kind of tying into the Batman "Last Rites" story, and the idea that the world is without a Batman for the moment. We definitely will see a lot of that in Nightwing and Robin. The second thing is definitely giving a sense of closure or finale to these series, which have been running for many years now, and giving a nice final beat to the stories as a whole. And the third thing that we're doing is definitely setting up these characters for the next stage of their lives and the next phase of their evolution. We have exciting things in store for each of those three books, and in the case of Birds of Prey, definitely with Barbara Gordon.
IGN Comics: I definitely want to talk about all the high-profile two-part stories you have coming up in the Batman books, but first a general question that can apply to working with Grant, Denny O'Neil, Neil Gaiman or any such veteran writer: How does one go about editing a legendary writer with such a distinct vision? How do you balance doing your job as an editor with letting the writer do what he does best? Is it more difficult or easier than normal?
Marts: You'd be surprised. It's almost like the bigger the name, the easier it is. That's not always the case. But having worked with Neil Gaiman, Joss Whedon, Grant Morrison – these guys are pros for a reason. What they do, they do so well, and their scripts are usually flawless and flow so well. So the editor's job in terms of story editing and story feedback is not as difficult as it is on other assignments. These guys make it easy, and my experience with at least these few guys has been extremely good.
IGN Comics: Because they are such big names, when you have an issue with one of their scripts, do you ever find yourself hesitant to step in and say something, because, you know… it's Neil Gaiman, or Grant Morrison?
Marts: No. I think it's just part of the job. I've been doing this long enough that I can spot when something might be off, or a certain beat is repeated or a beat is missing, or if something could be staged a different way. And if it's worth bringing up, then nine times out of ten the writers are thankful that I brought it up. Sometimes they've been working really fast and working into the late hours, and they can't always catch everything. So I think they're appreciative for when the editor can help them out with something. And that definitely goes for people like Neil or Grant.
IGN Comics: So let's move onto Denny O'Neil's upcoming two-part "Last Days of Gotham" story. First off, how and when did you guys approach him to do this story?
Marts: We approached him a while back. I think once we had all the RIP structure in place and new what tie-ins we wanted to do with RIP, we were thinking about what was coming afterwards. And we knew that we wanted several months of, for lack of a better term, retrospective stories, and special stories that spoke of the legacy of Batman. And when we started talking about the legacy of Batman, it was only a few seconds before someone suggested Denny O'Neil. So I gave him a call and let him know the basic things that we were thinking of, and there was immediate interest on his part. We got together, talked about a few interesting story ideas, and he was real professional and got his scripts in early. It's been a joy to work with the man who sheparded this character for so long, and his feel and his voice can be felt on the character to this day, and will always be there.
IGN Comics: What was it like editing not only one of the best Batman writers of all time, but one of the most renowned Batman editors as well?
Marts: I had to go into it almost as a student. I was playing the role of the editor, and I kept that part of the relationship the same. But I also went into it knowing that I'd be working with a legend and the guy who had my job for so many years, and did such a great job of it. So any type of wisdom or experience I could absorb from it, I wanted to.
IGN Comics: Next up after that is Paul Dini's two-part Catwoman/Hush follow-up. What should fans expect from this?
Marts: Well this ties into our January "Faces of Evil" event, so it's kind of a break from everything Batman RIP and Last Rites related. We deal specifically with the characters of Catwoman and Hush, and follow up on where they were in the Heart of Hush storyline in Detective Comics. That storyline got great reaction from the readers, and we're really proud of what Paul and Dustin Nyugen did on that. This storyline takes that beat a few steps further, and sets up those two characters' roles in 2009, which will play heavily into the Batman plans for next year.
IGN Comics: Since Paul's original story took place before RIP, and this story takes place after, will we see this story – and Catwoman and Hush, for that matter – acknowledge what happened to Batman in RIP?
Marts: You will definitely know that RIP has happened between "Heart of Hush" and the "Faces of Evil" storyline.
IGN Comics: It seems like there has been a concerted effort to move Selina Kyle further towards a more moral gray area than she's occupied in recent years. Do you think it's important to get that character back towards the villainous or amoral side of things?
Marts: You know, she's starring in a "Faces of Evil" one-shot, so that says something big about Selina's character and where she's deciding to take things in her life. She's a strong enough character where I think a lot of times she writes her own stories. I'll say that over the course of the next few months, the ball is definitely in her court as far as where she's going to lean – whether it is towards the Robin Hood side of doing good things through shady deeds, or if she'll lean more on the sides of actually being a villain.
IGN Comics: Moving on to Neil Gaiman's highly anticipated story. I think the title "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" brought about a ton of questions regarding how the story will fit into continuity. Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" closed the book on the Silver Age Superman before the original Crisis rebooted the character's history. I think many fans are wondering how Neil's story will align with both the current continuity and the future continuity. In other words, is this story part of the ongoing saga of Batman?
Marts: It is. But also it's the type of story that will be attractive to readers from the outside. People who haven't read Batman in years or haven't read Batman before could go into the comics shop, pick up these two issues, and have a complete Batman experience. And also not be worried about what came before or necessarily what's coming after. For those readers who have been around for the long haul and for those who have definitely been with us for the past few years since Grant's come onboard, they'll have a completely rewarding experience in that Neil's story definitely originates from the things that have been going on in the last few months, and very much sets the stage for things that are coming up in the near future.
IGN Comics: With Neil and Denny both building off of Grant's story, as an editor, does it fall to you to catch them up on everything Grant has put in place? If so, how do you go about doing that?
Marts: It does, yes. Part of the trick I guess is that when asking guys like Neil Gaiman and Denny O'Neil to get involved, you don't want to bind them to many restrictions or too many rules. It's a case of really boiling down the necessary ingredients to their bare bones, and to let Denny or Neil know exactly where things stand. "Here are the important things. Here's what you can play with, and here are the things we'd rather you not play with." And then it's about having faith in their abilities to take it from there and to the next level. Both guys were extremely professional about it, and were able to digest what we had going on very quickly with very few questions, and were able to take their respective stories in exciting directions that not only enhanced what we were currently doing, but really just brought a new spin to things and brought extra life to the overall Batman tapestry.
IGN Comics: So let's talk about Battle for the Cowl, and start with the first question on many of our minds: what made Tony Daniel the right choice to write this project as well as draw it?
Marts: Tony has had a lot of experience writing his own stories with The Tenth and a few of his other projects in the past, so we knew that Tony could write and was a good writer. When we started talking about Battle for the Cowl and what was necessary for that story, a lot of what we were talking about were story needs that originated internally. We knew that Tony was onboard as the artist for some time, so when we started explaining to him where we wanted to go with the story, we soon discovered that we didn't really have to explain too much to him, because he was getting it almost immediately. It was almost one of those cases where he'd finish one of your sentences before you did.
Really, it was kind of like this simultaneous thing where myself and Dan DiDio and a few of the other guys up here all came to the same conclusion at the same time and figured, "You know what? Why don't we ask Tony to write this?" Because he was getting it from start to finish, and he knew what we wanted to accomplish with this. And when we talked to Tony about it, he was delighted. He's already turned in his first script, and I think readers are going to be really impressed with what he's doing.
IGN Comics: In your experience, does editing a writer/artist differ much from editing a creative team?
Marts: You know, I've only done it a few times. I'm doing it with Tony, and I've done it with Jim Starlin. It doesn't really differ too much. Sometimes, like in the case of Jim Starlin, rather than writing out a full script, he wrote out a loose plot and then started drawing from his loose plot. The end result is the same thing – you get a great story that's well paced and the sequencing is excellent. In Tony Daniel's case, he sat down and just wrote a full script. So it probably varies from each guy. I'm not sure how Walt Simonson or John Byrne do it, but it's probably different with each guy.
IGN Comics: Can you talk about the format of Battle for the Cowl?
Marts: It's three issues, it runs from March to May, and each issue is thirty pages of story content.
IGN Comics: Following February, there will be a significant void in the Batman line. Will Battle for the Cowl alone fill that void?
Marts: No. We'll have some supplementary Battle for the Cowl material that we'll be announcing shortly. It'll be one or two additional limited series, and perhaps a few one-shots as well. We want to be careful to let Battle for the Cowl stand alone as its own thing. We don't want to overload the readers with too much. Any tie-in material that we'll be doing will be story related and necessary for story's sake.
IGN Comics: It may be too early for this, and obviously the title Battle for the Cowl speaks for itself in a way, but can you talk about the story at all?
Marts: It is a bit too early to go into the finer details, but make no mistake – the title is what the story will be about. This is definitely continuing on the theme of the legacy of Batman, and the idea that there has been a void for the past weeks or months, depending on whether you're talking about story time or real time. But there has been a void, and there is a need for a Batman. Whether that is Bruce Wayne or Tim Drake or Dick Grayson or Tommy Elliot or Selina Kyle or Jason Todd or Jean Paul Valley, or somebody completely new that we've never met before – there is a need for Batman. And perhaps some people think they deserve to be Batman. Perhaps some people think that they could never be Batman, and could never step into Bruce Wayne's shoes and do the job he did. But by the end of the series, we hope to answer the question that the title poses.
IGN Comics: Okay. And it sounds like that by the time Grant's "Last Rites" issues hit and the Robin and Nightwing "Last Rites" tie-ins come out, fans will have a better idea of exactly what to expect from the mini-series?
Marts: Yes, that's correct.
IGN Comics: Let's talk about the Outsiders. The title's brief history has been a fairly rocky one. How does Peter Tomasi plan on finally righting the ship and giving the title a much-needed sense of stability and direction?
Marts: Well you know, the genesis of this most recent Outsiders series really came about from the events of Batman RIP, and knowing that if there was a void and a world without Batman, then this team that he sheparded definitely would be affected. And you'll see from the very first pages of the Batman and the Outsiders Special that we do that there's a definite reason why this new team is coming into being, and it's definitely related to recent events in Batman RIP.
As far as the character lineup goes, we're kind of going back to basics for a good amount of the cast. Characters like Metamorpho or Black Lightning or Geo Force have been with the group for a very long time. We'll have a familiar DC face in the Creeper, who will join the ranks of the Outsiders. And then we have a new character as well – Owlman. So it's a very interesting team dynamic and a great lineup. And the job that Chuck Dixon and Frank Tieri were doing on the first fourteen issues of the series, they did a fantastic job of bringing a certain group of characters along and tying it into RIP and accomplishing certain things. But this is definitely a starting point and a new era for the Outsiders.
IGN Comics: When the series first debuted, it was promoted as a more proactive answer to the Justice League. Right now, it sounds like the book will be looking at how a team tries to fill the void left by Batman. Will that first angle remain?
Marts: It definitely will. The Outsiders group has always operated a little more along the lines of covert ops. Whereas the JLA mostly operated within the rules, the Outsiders operate outside the rules. That theme is definitely still in the book.
IGN Comics: Will the mystery behind this new Owlman play out over a number of different issues?
Marts: That's something that we're actually working out right now, and it's probably a tad too early for me to comment.
IGN Comics: One last question before I let you get back to your busy schedule. One thing fans have all been wondering is when exactly – if at all – Morrison will return to Batman after his "Last Rites" issues?
Marts: We hope soon.
IGN Comics: It's still a ways away?
Marts: It could be.
IGN Comics: Mike, thanks for taking the time to talk to us. We appreciate it, and look forward to talking to you again soon!
Marts: No problem, Dan.
