Who should judge Saddam?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051205/ap_o...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

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Saddam: 'I Am Not Afraid of Execution'
By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Saddam Hussein told the judge at his trial Monday that "I am not afraid of execution" during a chaotic court session in which the first witness took the stand and testified that the former president's agents carried out random arrests, torture and killings. The outburst was one of several by Saddam or his co-defendants at the trial that also saw a brief walkout by his defense lawyers.

At one point, Saddam appeared to threaten the judge, saying: "When the revolution of the heroic Iraq arrives, you will be held accountable."

Chief Judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin replied: "This is an insult to the court. We are searching for the truth."

Earlier, however, Saddam told the court he understood the pressures upon the judges and defended his actions. He and his seven co-defendants could be executed if convicted on the charges stemming from the deaths of more than 140 Shiites in 1982.

Before the trial adjourned until Tuesday, Saddam repeatedly interrupted testimony and appeared to try to rally Iraqis against the U.S. occupation.

"This game must not continue, if you want Saddam Hussein's neck, you can have it!" Saddam said. "I have exercised my constitutional prerogatives after I had been the target of an armed attack.

"I am not afraid of execution," said Saddam, who then addressed the judge, saying, "I realize there is pressure on you and I regret that I have to confront one of my sons. But I'm not doing it for myself. I'm doing it for Iraq. I'm not defending myself. But I am defending you."

When the first witness Ahmed Hassan Mohammed spoke, Saddam told him: "Do not interrupt me, son."

"If it's ever established that Saddam Hussein laid a hand on any Iraqi, then everything that witness said is correct," he said.

He also told the court that he "would like (the witness) to be examined by an independent medical institution."

Amin had a difficult time keeping order during several clashes between the witnesses and the accused, with Saddam and his co-defendant and half brother, Barazan Ibrahim, gesturing and shouting together. In one instance, Saddam pointed to the sky with his right hand while he held Islam's holy book, the Quran, in his left.

"Everyone must remain calm and be civil," he said repeatedly.

At one point, Saddam and Ibrahim became so angry while Saddam sparred verbally with the judge and a second witness, Jawad Abdul-Azziz Jawad, that guards tried to calm them. Ibrahim smacked them on the hands with a notebook.

Saddam himself became so angry that he threw some papers he was holding, and they eventually landed on the floor.

Earlier, former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, who is helping represent Saddam, sought to address the court, touching off an argument that led to the walkout by the defense team.

Amin at first said only Saddam's chief lawyer, Khalil al-Dulaimi, could speak. Amin said the defense should submit its motion in writing and warned that if the defense walked out then the court would appoint replacement lawyers.

After the defense lawyers left, Saddam, shaking his right hand, told the judge: "You are imposing lawyers on us. They are imposed lawyers. The court is imposed by itself. We reject that."

Saddam and Ibrahim then chanted "Long live Iraq, long live the Arab state."

Ibrahim stood up and shouted: "Why don't you just execute us and get rid of all of this!"

When the judge explained that he was ruling in accordance with the law, Saddam replied: "This is a law made by America and does not reflect Iraqi sovereignty."

It was the third court session in the trial of Saddam and seven co-defendants — accused in the 1982 killings after an assassination attempt against the president in Dujail — where Saddam at times appeared to be in control of the court as much as the presiding judge.

After the lawyers spoke, Mohammed began his emotional but often rambling testimony. He said that after an assassination attempt on Saddam, security agencies took people of all ages, from 14 to more than 70. They were tortured for 70 days at intelligence headquarters in Baghdad before being moved to Abu Ghraib prison where the abuse continued, he said.

"There were mass arrests. Women and men. Even if a child was 1-day-old, they used to tell his parents, 'Bring him with you,'" Mohammed said. He said he was taken to a security center where "I saw bodies of people from Dujail."

"They were martyrs I knew," Mohammed said, giving the names of the nine whose bodies were there.

The second witness, Jawad, who was only 10 when the assassination attempt occurred, testified how Iraqi troops used helicopters to attack the city and bulldozers to destroy the fields.

Jawad said Saddam's regime killed three of his brothers, one before the assassination attempt and two after.

When al-Dulaimi asked how someone who was 10 could remember such details, Jawad said "a 3-year-old child remembers a lot. An elementary school student does not forget if a teacher slapped him in the face. I live a catastrophe."

After the walkout and a 90-minute recess to resolve the issue, the court reconvened and Amin allowed Clark and ex-Qatari Justice Minister Najib al-Nueimi to speak on the questions of the legitimacy of the tribunal and safety of the lawyers.

"Reconciliation is essential," Clark told the court. "This trial can either divide or heal. And unless it is seen as absolutely fair, and as absolutely fair in fact, it will irreconcilably divide the people of Iraq."

At that point, the judge reminded Clark that he was to speak only about the security guarantees for the defense lawyers — two of whom have been assassinated since the trial began Oct. 19.

Clark then said all parties were entitled to protection, and the measures offered to protect the defense and their families were "absurd." He said that without such protection, the judicial system would collapse.

Al-Nueimi then spoke about the legitimacy issue, arguing that court is not independent and was in fact set up under the U.S.-led occupation rather than by a legal Iraqi government. He said the language of the statute was unchanged from that promulgated by the former top U.S. administrator in Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, and was therefore "illegitimate."

The first witness had exchanged insults with Ibrahim, Saddam's half brother, telling him "you killed a 14-year-old boy."

"To hell," Ibrahim replied.

"You and your children go to hell," the witness replied.

The judge then asked them to avoid such exchanges.

As the testimony continued, Saddam's lawyers objected that someone in the visitors' gallery was making threatening gestures and should be removed. Ibrahim leapt to his feet, spat in the direction of the gallery, and shouted, "These are criminals."

The judge ordered the person removed from the gallery and questioned.

Mohammed, fighting back tears, described how there had been "random arrests in the streets, all the forces of the (Baath) party, and Thursday became `Judgment Day' and Dujail has become a battle front."

"Shootings started and nobody could leave or enter Dujail. At night, intelligence agents arrived headed by Barazan" Ibrahim, he said.

Ibrahim interrupted him at one point, saying: "I am a patriot and I was the head of the intelligence service of Iraq."

At the start of Monday's session, Saddam walked into the court with a smile, carrying a copy of the Quran and greeted everyone there. Most of the defendants and several of the defense lawyers, including Clark, stood up out of respect when Saddam entered.

My moral compass, Britain's The Economist magazine, yesterday applauded the conviction, particularly as it was not a victor's show trial: all participants were Iraqi, although some of the prosecutors were trained by Americans and the trial itself was funded by the US.

On the other hand it pointed out that one fo Saddam's lawyers had his brothers murdered: one judge stood down for being a former Ba'athist, and another judge refused to refer to Saddam as a "dictator". It commented that such thigns were to be expected in a "transitional justice system."

Given the problems with the trial, I would have preferred for him to get life. in any event, the mandate fo the court requires the death penalty be automatically appealed, so we shall see what happens.

I agree with Dave on this one.

As I said in the other thread, I feel execution is warranted to insure the security of the state by making sure killers can't kill again. In this case however, Hussein is most probably never going to be able to kill anyone. Saddam's lost his nation and his power and thus has no ability to further murder people. One could argue that he'd kill someone else physically, but his MO as a dictator was to let others kill for him, so I don't buy that.

Right now, I'm speaking as a Catholic; the only real judge Saddam's going to face is God. I truly think that he's never going to get the chance to sin again, so I have no problem with him being allowed to continue breathing.

Still, it's not my decision. And because he's apart of the Iraqi constituence, they have a right to do what they want with him. Moreover, because they actually gave him the right to a trial, I'm not going to blame them for their choice.

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Pariah said:
Still, it's not my decision. And because he's apart of the Iraqi constituence, they have a right to do what they want with him. Moreover, because they actually gave him the right to a trial, I'm not going to blame them for their choice.

Aye.

Saddam's victims never got trials before their death sentences.

Saddam Calls for Reconciliation in Court
By SINAN SALAHEDDIN and ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writers
2 hours ago

Former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein listens to testimony during ...
BAGHDAD, Iraq - A somber and subdued Saddam Hussein called on Iraqis to "forgive, reconcile and shake hands" as he returned to court Tuesday for his Kurdish genocide trial two days after being sentenced to death in a separate case.

Iran urged Iraq to disregard calls for clemency and hang the ousted president, saying Saddam's "very existence is anti-human."

The startling call from Saddam came after he rose during the afternoon session to question the testimony of the witnesses, who told of a mass killing of Iraqi Kurds in the 1987-88 Operation Anfal crackdown on Kurdish guerrillas.

Saddam then calmly spoke about how the Prophet Muhammad and Jesus Christ asked for forgiveness for those who had opposed them.

"I call on all Iraqis, Arabs and Kurds, to forgive, reconcile and shake hands," Saddam said before resuming his seat.

The former president's demeanor was far different from his combative performance Sunday, when another court convicted him in the deaths of about 150 Shiite Muslims following an assassination attempt against him in the town of Dujail in 1982.

Saddam and two others were sentenced to death by hanging. Four co-defendants received lesser sentences and one was acquitted. Saddam thundered "Long live the people and death to their enemies" when the sentence was imposed.

On Tuesday, however, Saddam, dressed in a dark suit and white shirt, sat quietly along with the six other defendants in the Anfal case, calmly taking notes as four Kurdish witnesses gave their testimony.

Saddam's goal in making the statement was unclear.

However, the remarks followed at least two other public declarations by Saddam in recent weeks in which he urged national unity _ perhaps to secure a more favorable place in history or to encourage contacts between the Americans and his supporters.

One statement, released last month by his lawyers, urged Iraqis to remember that their goal should be to free the country "from the forces of occupation and their followers" and not "settling scores."

In a statement Sunday, Saddam urged Iraqis not to "take revenge on the invading nations and their people" and to unite "in the face of sectarian strife."

A nine-judge appeals panel is expected to rule on Saddam's guilty verdict and death sentence in the Dujail case by the middle of January, the chief prosecutor said. That could set in motion a possible execution by mid-February.

The death sentence has drawn criticism from European and human rights officials who oppose capital punishment _ regardless of the crime.

"Even a person like Saddam Hussein should not be sentenced to death," Manfred Nowak, the U.N. special investigator on torture, said during a human rights forum in Vienna.

In Tehran, however, the Iranian government called for the death sentence to be carried out, saying that Saddam was a criminal who deserved to die.

"We hope the fair, correct and legal verdict against this criminal ... is enforced," government spokesman Gholam Hossein Elham said. "Saddam has both Shiite and Sunni blood on his hands. His very existence is anti-human."

Iran and Iraq waged a bitter eight-year war after Saddam invaded the country in 1980.

On Tuesday, the court heard testimony from survivors of an Aug. 28, 1988 massacre of more than 30 Kurdish men, who had surrendered after hearing that Saddam offered amnesty to Kurdish rebels.

Instead, the witnesses said they were herded together at the base of a hill, where Iraqi soldiers opened fire on them. Only a handful survived.

"When they fired in our direction, we all fell to the ground," Qahar Khalil Mohammed testified. "When I went back, I saw my father and two brothers had been killed, as well as 18 of my relatives."

Mohammed said an Iraqi medical officer used a broken bottle to clean his wound.

Witness Abdul-Karim Nayif said the men had been hiding in caves after an attack on their village near the Turkish border and some had considered suicide.

But they decided instead to surrender after Iraqi officers "swore on the Quran" that Saddam's offer of amnesty was genuine, Nayif said.

Another survivor, Abdul-Karim Nayif, submitted a video of a mass grave found near the site of the massacre after Kurds gained self-rule in 1991. The video showed numerous human remains.

Saddam and his cousin "Chemical Ali" al-Majid are charged with genocide in the Anfal case. The other defendants are accused of crimes against humanity and war crimes. All could be sentenced to death by hanging if convicted.

___

Salaheddin reported from Baghdad, and Reid from Amman, Jordan. Some material from a pool report was included.

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I wonder if he'll resort to begging for mercy and saying if they don't kill him, and let him go, that he'll promise to never do anything bad again?

Saying "can't we all just get along" might have seemed just a LITTLE more sincere BEFORE the death sentence, you know?

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Pariah said:
I'm not sure. Iraq has every right to be the one that judges him, but.......

I'm going to optimize this statement here by saying the Iraqi's have every right to be the ones to judge him for crimes, but at the same time, I don't think he actually committed any crimes as a dictator since, by very definition, dictators are allowed to do what they want to/with the country they govern. He did perform a coup on the Republic, but because he succeeded, that means it wasn't really a crime. And the fact that the Iraqi people eventually, albeit reluctantly, accepted his presence solidified his rule as such.

This isn't to say that Saddam's not a dick--Because he certainly is.

I dunno. By that argument, everyone at Nuremburg should have gotten off scot free.

I think at some point you need to say that certain actions are just plan and simple violations of 'the natural law' and proceeding accordingly.

Sovereign rights should be no bar to human rights. Being "dictator" doesn't give you the right to torture and kill people. (In any event his actual title was "president".)

Its interesting that he is asking for the Iraqi people to mend fences. Either its a clemency plea, or he's found Allah.

From a New York Times story on Iraqi execution methods, set to be used on Saddam:

victims

victims'

You know, even if you oppose the death penalty, there's just something wrong about referring to the convicted mass murderer as a victim, the same term used to define the ones he killed.

Saddam's Noose Tightens

Iraqi court upholds decision to hang Saddam, other co-defendants within 30 days for killing 148 people

Weren't they supposed to hang Saddam a month or two ago?

I call shinanagins!

Unlike his victims, Saddam had a right to an appeal, which has now been heard, and denied.

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the G-man said:
Unlike his victims, Saddam had a right to an appeal, which has now been heard, and denied.

That is damn funny!!!

This means he won't stand trial for gassing Kurds in the late 80s.

Still, its not like the man doesn't deserve it. Quite a moment in history, actually.

I read online where Saddam is urging Iraq NOT to hate the US anymore.

Yeah, right...

That is probably some form of code where it really means, " Hate the US even MORE than before!"

I suspect that Saddam is saying that in a desperate attempt to convince someone in the US that, if allowed to live, he could broker some sort of peace deal.

It's a bit late for him to save his ass with hollow hints at peace.

It looks increasingly like Saddam won't live through the weekend

Judge: Saddam to be executed by Saturday

Iraqi PM signs death warrant

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First Amongst Daves said:
Being "dictator" doesn't give you the right to torture and kill people.

Yeah it does since that's the kind of law they let him get away with.

U.S. official: execution 'within a matter of hours'

Wonder what he asked for his final meal to be?

A happy meal?

Or a Devils' Food cake?

Pork chops I hope.

Hope he chokes on the bones!

Ooops.. that would mess up the hanging!

Wow...'s quite the Christmas present to the world.

It's 9:11 right now...do you think they've done the deed? heh.

U.S. Judge Refuses to Block Saddam Hussein's Execution

This is worse than having to wait for the laundry to be dry!!!

This just in on CNN : The asshole has been Executed!

I know Iraq is STILL fucked up, but Saddam is dead.

Welcome to hell, Saddam.

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the G-man said:

Welcome to hell, Saddam.

I was just thinking of that very South Park episode!!

I hope Saddam gets a pineapple up his ass every night, as Hitler did in the movie, " Little Nicky" !!!

Next topic....

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Pariah said:
I agree with Dave on this one.

I agree with Pary, as usual.

Dancing on his grave won't bring anyone back to life.

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rex said:
Dancing on his grave won't bring anyone back to life.

That's seriously one of the more thoughtful things I've ever heard you say in here. There's admitedly a sense of shame I think in having made light of this whole thing. I mean...he deserved this...but at the end of the day, it's yet another life that's been taken.

Exactly.

This is one of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. Its barbaric and the one thing it will likely do in this case is make him a martyr and cause more damage in an already overwhelmingly bad situation.

Life in solitary confinement would have been the better choice. Its what a more civilized country would have done.

That's a decidely Canadian opinion you have there, Rex.

The death penalty is one of the few things I hate about America. Have you ever seen the list of countries that have it? Its a list we shouldn't be on.

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rex said:
Exactly.

This is one of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. Its barbaric and the one thing it will likely do in this case is make him a martyr and cause more damage in an already overwhelmingly bad situation.

Life in solitary confinement would have been the better choice. Its what a more civilized country would have done.

The death penalty is the only way you can guarantee that a killer will never kill again. I'm very much for it.

In addition, it's been shown that areas that have the death penalty have less murders than places that do not have a death penalty. It is a deterrant that lowers the number of murders, and ultimately saves lives.

Regarding Saddam Hussein, his execution was sooner than I expected (news reports a few days ago said it would happen within 30 days).
The world is a better place without him.

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Wonder Boy said:
The death penalty is the only way you can guarantee that a killer will never kill again. I'm very much for it.

It's also the only way to guarantee that a child molester will never molest a child again. Why aren't child molesters executed? Because killing is the worst thing you can do? Oh... whoops!

What about prison for life? Is it not an option because it's more expensive? (Is it more expensive? I remember reading once that it actually costs more to use the lethal injection than to sustain someone in prison for life, but I can't remember where.) In that case, isn't it ridiculous to kill someone over a few bucks?

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In addition, it's been shown that areas that have the death penalty have less murders than places that do not have a death penalty. It is a deterrant that lowers the number of murders, and ultimately saves lives.

I was once explained the opposite: a psychologist told me death penalty is seen as an "easy way out" for criminals. If you've done something bad enough to get the death penalty, then you've got nothing to lose. A serial killer might as well murder 20 more people, the punishment will be the same.

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The world is a better place without him.

Like Pariah said, there's no way he would have killed again. The world isn't a better place: another murder's been committed.

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the G-man said:

Welcome to hell, Saddam.

Would this also be appropriate?

I personally find the death penalty quite distasteful. Yeah, Saddam's dead, but I'm not partying about it. I'm not surprised by it, but it doesn't give me any sort of satisfaction to know that he's dead now. As was said before, it's not gonna bring anybody back. And weren't there already plenty of reasons a normal person wouldn't want to become a crazed dictator with genocidal tendencies? This one was a long time coming, and again, not at all surprising, but I'll let someone else mull over whether the execution was right or wrong. It's not making me smile is all.

His death is also not necessarily the end. Bizarre as it may sound to us there is a very real chance Saddam will become a martyr.

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Wonder Boy said:
Rex's response is like saying when a soldier dies, it's not the enemy he fought that killed him, it's his lack of training.
Well, usually it's the enemy.
Sometimes even the best-trained and vigilant soldier (or guard) is overwhelmed by an enemy in a volatile circumstance, and it has nothing to do with training.

You're a tool.

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Matter-eater Man said:
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Wonder Boy said:...

Forgive me, but I believe in punishing criminals, and not waxing philosophic about their rights after they've committed the most vicious of crimes. I believe in eliminating their threat to the public. Permanently.

I reserve my sympathy and defense of rights for the victims, not the murderers.

Not everyone sentenced to death was a murderer though. You can always increase security at a prison but a death sentence can never be undone once carried out.

That's why there's an appeals process that takes 7 to 10 years, at least, to actually carry out the execution sentence.

Ted Bundy took closer to 20 years to be executed. Probably partly due to the fact that he was a lawyer who knew how to manipulate the process.

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Matter-eater Man said:
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Wonder Boy said:...

Forgive me, but I believe in punishing criminals, and not waxing philosophic about their rights after they've committed the most vicious of crimes. I believe in eliminating their threat to the public. Permanently.

I reserve my sympathy and defense of rights for the victims, not the murderers.

Not everyone sentenced to death was a murderer though. You can always increase security at a prison but a death sentence can never be undone once carried out.

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Nowhereman said:
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Wonder Boy said:

The death penalty is the only way you can guarantee that a killer will never kill again. I'm very much for it.

And how many wrongly convicted people have been put to death over the years?
The simple answer is that we will never know, and thats what makes the death penalty wrong!

That's very true. I can't dispute that.

But if you put away a guy for 15 or 20 years, and then set him free, you've still taken his life away.

I recall an incident I read about in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel back in 1993 or 1994. I graduated high school in 1981. And I read about a guy who'd been in prison in South Florida who'd been wrongfully convicted who was exactly the same age as me. He had hung out with two guys who were auto mechanics, who killed someone and pinned the blame on him. Several people, friends and girlfriends of the murderers, falsely testified that it was the innocent guy.

But 13 years later, one of the girlfriends who testified revealed that she lied, exposed the true story, and the innocent guy was set free after 13 years in jail. I couldn't help thinking about what I'd done in those years, and how this poor guy had to sit in prison all those years for a crime he didn't commit.
In addition, he'd been repeatedly raped in prison, and as a result had contracted HIV, so in his own words, his life was over, and he'd been released only so that he could die.

So, life in prison, or the death penalty. Both take away years and a life that can never be replaced.

My personal favorite sentence from the New York Times’ Saddam obituary: “Rarely traveling abroad, and surrounded by often uneducated cousins, he had a limited worldview.”

No shit.

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Pariah said:
Okay, that's just fucking stupid.

:-[

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You can't prove that's the reason he killed. It's more logical to assume, based on typical criminal response, that he murdered because he was on the lamb in the first. Criminals who have escaped prison continue to kill even though they weren't going in for the death penalty.

You forget I'm not making, shit what's the word, I'm not claiming to have the last word, Pary. I'm not you. I can't prove that's the reason he killed? WHOA!

I'm making a simple point, for fucking out loud. Nothing to lose, might as well kill. End. I thought that was pretty clear, but, you know, there's always one.

Incidentally, when I googled "whoa" I got this:

YOU'RE WELCOME.

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Wonder Boy said:
That's very true. I can't dispute that.

But if you put away a guy for 15 or 20 years, and then set him free, you've still taken his life away.

That's some fucked up logic you got yourself there, boy.

Ask anyone: Would you rather get falsely imprisoned for 15 years, or falsely sentenced to death? Really, go out there and ask people. Git! You'll be shocked by the answer. You'll come back here, you'll google "whoa", you'll say "hmmm, I wish Jennifer Connelly would show more labia", you'll google "keanu", and then you'll post his picture here with the words "W H O A".

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I recall an incident I read about in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel back in 1993 or 1994. I graduated high school in 1981. And I read about a guy who'd been in prison in South Florida who'd been wrongfully convicted who was exactly the same age as me. He had hung out with two guys who were auto mechanics, who killed someone and pinned the blame on him. Several people, friends and girlfriends of the murderers, falsely testified that it was the innocent guy.

But 13 years later, one of the girlfriends who testified revealed that she lied, exposed the true story, and the innocent guy was set free after 13 years in jail. I couldn't help thinking about what I'd done in those years, and how this poor guy had to sit in prison all those years for a crime he didn't commit.
In addition, he'd been repeatedly raped in prison, and as a result had contracted HIV, so in his own words, his life was over, and he'd been released only so that he could die.

So, life in prison, or the death penalty. Both take away years and a life that can never be replaced.

So are you saying that... if you kill someone who was wrongly convicted... it's a mercy killing?

We falsely accused someone? Well, heck, we might as well kill 'em!
_{(Disclaimer: The above is an exaggeration of Wondy's post. I don't mean to say that he actually said that. Also, I don't want to kill him.)}

Wonder boy has gone too far off the logic scale. He's just trolling to troll.

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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Incidentally, when I googled "whoa" I got this:

YOU'RE WELCOME.

I think there should be more debates of this nature!

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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
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Wonder Boy said:
That's very true. I can't dispute that.

But if you put away a guy for 15 or 20 years, and then set him free, you've still taken his life away.

That's some fucked up logic you got yourself there, boy.

Ask anyone: Would you rather get falsely imprisoned for 15 years, or falsely sentenced to death? Really, go out there and ask people. Git! You'll be shocked by the answer. You'll come back here, you'll google "whoa", you'll say "hmmm, I wish Jennifer Connelly would show more labia", you'll google "keanu", and then you'll post his picture here with the words "W H O A".

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I recall an incident I read about in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel back in 1993 or 1994. I graduated high school in 1981. And I read about a guy who'd been in prison in South Florida who'd been wrongfully convicted who was exactly the same age as me. He had hung out with two guys who were auto mechanics, who killed someone and pinned the blame on him. Several people, friends and girlfriends of the murderers, falsely testified that it was the innocent guy.

But 13 years later, one of the girlfriends who testified revealed that she lied, exposed the true story, and the innocent guy was set free after 13 years in jail. I couldn't help thinking about what I'd done in those years, and how this poor guy had to sit in prison all those years for a crime he didn't commit.
In addition, he'd been repeatedly raped in prison, and as a result had contracted HIV, so in his own words, his life was over, and he'd been released only so that he could die.

So, life in prison, or the death penalty. Both take away years and a life that can never be replaced.

So are you saying that... if you kill someone who was wrongly convicted... it's a mercy killing?

We falsely accused someone? Well, heck, we might as well kill 'em!
_{(Disclaimer: The above is an exaggeration of Wondy's post. I don't mean to say that he actually said that. Also, I don't want to kill him.)}

My point is clear enough, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it: This guy's life is destroyed, regardless of the fact that he's been released. Life in prison, or the death penalty, his life is destroyed. He's now incapable of having a career. And exonerating him at this point doesn't free him of HIV or give him his life back.

It's like asking someone if they'd rather freeze to death or burn to death. Well, either one is about as terrible.

My point is, the option of being set free after false imprisonment isn't exactly making this guy's day. You and rex, and MEM are saying that reversing a false conviction gives a person their life back. My point is that: no, it doesn't. And for some, that might be a fate equal to or worse than the death penalty.

But hey, thanks for the Jennifer Connolly photo.

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Wonder Boy said:
My point is clear enough

No it isn't.

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crazy drunk reax said:
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Wonder Boy said:
My point is clear enough

No it isn't.

Well, have another beer then, it'll be clearer !

Go blow g-man.

An interesting point by a girl on another forum:

[quote="sharnofshade"]
By killing Saddam, we as a global people have made a mockery of disapproving of murder on ANY scale.

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And also: I use the same argument against people supporting the death penalty as I do against people who are cruel to animals. I don't trust people who are cruel to animals not to be cruel to people too. And I will not ever trust a government or people who allow the murder of 'criminals' not to turn that mind-set on the innocent and the different and the weak. You might think that Saddam 'deserved' to die. But remember that now, right this second, there are people who believe that blacks 'deserve' to die. That gays 'deserve' to die. That anyone who does drugs 'deserves' to die. You can try to get into the nitty gritty of what makes one 'deserving' of death. Or you can realise that killing people is wrong, and that not being repelled by the idea of someone, ANYONE being killed, is an unhealthy and inefficient mindset.

And, on the other side of the spectrum...the video:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/

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sharnofshade said:
By killing Saddam, we as a global people have made a mockery of disapproving of murder on ANY scale.

---

And also: I use the same argument against people supporting the death penalty as I do against people who are cruel to animals. I don't trust people who are cruel to animals not to be cruel to people too. And I will not ever trust a government or people who allow the murder of 'criminals' not to turn that mind-set on the innocent and the different and the weak. You might think that Saddam 'deserved' to die. But remember that now, right this second, there are people who believe that blacks 'deserve' to die. That gays 'deserve' to die. That anyone who does drugs 'deserves' to die. You can try to get into the nitty gritty of what makes one 'deserving' of death. Or you can realise that killing people is wrong, and that not being repelled by the idea of someone, ANYONE being killed, is an unhealthy and inefficient mindset.

Klinton, it's disappointing to see you post such soft-headed crap.

Please don't do it again.

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Pariah said:
Quote:

sharnofshade said:
By killing Saddam, we as a global people have made a mockery of disapproving of murder on ANY scale.

---

And also: I use the same argument against people supporting the death penalty as I do against people who are cruel to animals. I don't trust people who are cruel to animals not to be cruel to people too. And I will not ever trust a government or people who allow the murder of 'criminals' not to turn that mind-set on the innocent and the different and the weak. You might think that Saddam 'deserved' to die. But remember that now, right this second, there are people who believe that blacks 'deserve' to die. That gays 'deserve' to die. That anyone who does drugs 'deserves' to die. You can try to get into the nitty gritty of what makes one 'deserving' of death. Or you can realise that killing people is wrong, and that not being repelled by the idea of someone, ANYONE being killed, is an unhealthy and inefficient mindset.

Klinton, it's disappointing to see you post such soft-headed crap.

Please don't do it again.

besides, there's a big difference between blacks, jews, drug abusers, whomever else the fellow mentioned and Saddam.

And besides, there's nothing unhealthy and ineffecient about not being repelled by someone being killed. It's simply being human.

Saddam lived by the philosophy "Might makes right" He was powerful, and he used that power to do whatever he wanted. He ordered the death and torture of thousands. He engineered wars that would serve his purpose. It wasn't until he was faced with greater force that he "seemingly" recanted his previous ways and suddenly became a man of religion and peace.

Saddam has faced the consequences of his own actions, he deserved to die.

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Wonder Boy said:
Alcatraz was arguably the most secure prison ever built, but prisoners escaped from there too. While they're alive, and there's a will to escape, they'll eventually scout out a weak link in even the most secure of chains.

1) Alcatraz did not have any of the modern surveilance equipment we have today, so modern prisons can be a lot more secure if people wanna make it that way!

2)And nobody knows if the handful of Alcatraz escapees survived, so thats not really a great example!

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Chant said:
Quote:

Pariah said:
Quote:

sharnofshade said:
By killing Saddam, we as a global people have made a mockery of disapproving of murder on ANY scale.

---

And also: I use the same argument against people supporting the death penalty as I do against people who are cruel to animals. I don't trust people who are cruel to animals not to be cruel to people too. And I will not ever trust a government or people who allow the murder of 'criminals' not to turn that mind-set on the innocent and the different and the weak. You might think that Saddam 'deserved' to die. But remember that now, right this second, there are people who believe that blacks 'deserve' to die. That gays 'deserve' to die. That anyone who does drugs 'deserves' to die. You can try to get into the nitty gritty of what makes one 'deserving' of death. Or you can realise that killing people is wrong, and that not being repelled by the idea of someone, ANYONE being killed, is an unhealthy and inefficient mindset.

Klinton, it's disappointing to see you post such soft-headed crap.

Please don't do it again.

besides, there's a big difference between blacks, jews, drug abusers, whomever else the fellow mentioned and Saddam.

And besides, there's nothing unhealthy and ineffecient about not being repelled by someone being killed. It's simply being human.

Saddam lived by the philosophy "Might makes right" He was powerful, and he used that power to do whatever he wanted. He ordered the death and torture of thousands. He engineered wars that would serve his purpose. It wasn't until he was faced with greater force that he "seemingly" recanted his previous ways and suddenly became a man of religion and peace.

Saddam has faced the consequences of his own actions, he deserved to die.

I enjoy how we counter arguments about who deserves or doesn't deserve to die with arguments about who deserves or doesn't deserve to die. Philosophically and logically, there are two feasible cut-and-dried conclusions. One, nobody deserves to die. Two, everybody deserves to die. Most everyone would choose some sort of middle ground, some-do-some-don't stance, but really all that boils down to is that the question of who deserves to die is totally immaterial. Guess what? We're all gonna die. It makes no sense to use "_________ had it coming" or "_________ didn't deserve that" as moral justifications to a logical decision.

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Wonder Boy said:
My point is clear enough, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it: This guy's life is destroyed, regardless of the fact that he's been released. Life in prison, or the death penalty, his life is destroyed. He's now incapable of having a career. And exonerating him at this point doesn't free him of HIV or give him his life back.

No, it doesn't necessarily destroy his life. As long as there's life, it's possible to rebuild. You know how the cliche goes. The only way to take away that possibility forever is by killing them.

Personally, if I was wrongly convicted I'd like to decide by myself wether my life is ruined or not.

Take that Hurricane dude. He was in prison for, what? Like a decade? When he was cleared he settled and had a normal life. I think he was part of an organization to help the wrongly convicted until recently.

What a silly argument, man. Really. "He can't get a job!" What if he's exonarated? "Well, um, he has AIDS! Obviously!"

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It's like asking someone if they'd rather freeze to death or burn to death. Well, either one is about as terrible.

No, it's like asking someone wether they'd like to burn to death or burn half to death. The difference is abysmal.

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My point is, the option of being set free after false imprisonment isn't exactly making this guy's day. You and rex, and MEM are saying that reversing a false conviction gives a person their life back. My point is that: no, it doesn't. And for some, that might be a fate equal to or worse than the death penalty.

For some, it might be. For others, it might not. It's simply ridiculous to use this as an argument in favor of death penalty, saying they would have lost their lives anyway if they hadn't been killed (!). If anything, it's a small comfort for when people are cleared after they were executed. In no way is it an argument for continuing to kill more people.

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But hey, thanks for the Jennifer Connolly photo.

You're welcome. See, Pariah, this is called being polite.

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Wonder Boy said:

It's like asking someone if they'd rather freeze to death or burn to death. Well, either one is about as terrible.

Incorrect. I have heard that, when one freezes to death, it is bad.. to a point, then, as your blood moves away from your extremities and into your brain, you cease to feel anything.. and then, you expire.

I was in a situation where I did come close to freezing to death. It did not feel so bad after a while. I just shivered a lot.

Burning to death is horrible. Ever gotten a bad burn, or even a minor one while cooking? I have. Now, imagine that, only ALL over your body, and a million times worse.

I am not the analogy police, but this was a poor comparison. You can do better, Dave.

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Nowhereman said:
1) Alcatraz did not have any of the modern surveilance equipment we have today, so modern prisons can be a lot more secure if people wanna make it that way!

When more people break out more future state of the art holding cells, is this still going to be your tune?

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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
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But hey, thanks for the Jennifer Connolly photo.

You're welcome. See, Pariah, this is called being polite.

Mxy, how can you expect me to be polite when you won't even join my ticket?

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Pariah said:
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Nowhereman said:
1) Alcatraz did not have any of the modern surveilance equipment we have today, so modern prisons can be a lot more secure if people wanna make it that way!

When more people break out more future state of the art holding cells, is this still going to be your tune?

So you really think that a modern prison with cameras & all sorts or sensors can really be compared to an antique like Alcatraz?

The point is that all the stuff we have available in this day and age & the governments (yes I am talking about my country as well, not just attacking the US) feel it is not important enough to spend money on making sure our prisons have more secure.
They would rather spend money on sending people into space or building weapons rather than making sure murderers & rapists stay behind bars!

As noted above, I can see legitimate arguments against the death penalty in general.

I would respectfully dispute, however, the idea that killing him somehow makes him more a martyr than if he received life in prison.

Over the years, in America and elsewhere, people have been sentenced to life in prison and then glamorized into "causes celebre," rightly or wrongly.

Who's to say, for example, that a group of misguided (or corrupt) Iraqis wouldn't make Saddam into that nations' twisted version of Nelson Mandela, and devote their lives to a revolution to restore him to power?

Furthermore, as part of that cult of personality, its not uncommon for criminals to be able to develop contacts while in prison to help them carry out further mischief. Look at, for example, that blind cleric in the US who's lawyer was helping him promote terrorism. Or consider Scott Peterson getting marriage proposals while behind bars.

No, in the long run, its better for Iraq that Saddam was tried and executed. The last thing they, or we, needed was him trying to usher a comeback from behind bars.

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Nowhereman said:
Quote:

Pariah said:
Quote:

Nowhereman said:
1) Alcatraz did not have any of the modern surveilance equipment we have today, so modern prisons can be a lot more secure if people wanna make it that way!

When more people break out more future state of the art holding cells, is this still going to be your tune?

So you really think that a modern prison with cameras & all sorts or sensors can really be compared to an antique like Alcatraz?

The point is that all the stuff we have available in this day and age & the governments (yes I am talking about my country as well, not just attacking the US) feel it is not important enough to spend money on making sure our prisons have more secure.
They would rather spend money on sending people into space or building weapons rather than making sure murderers & rapists stay behind bars!

How about this compromise : Establish a penal colony on the moon. Thus, the money would be spent both on space and on making sure murderers and rapists stay in prison.

I mean, where are the bastards going to escape to on the moon? It has no atmosphere, and they'd need to commandeer a rocket to go back to Earth, which can be made to be highly unlikely.

A book was written about this possibility :

" The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress ", by Robert Heinlein.

Very good book, btw.

Now you're just being silly, Jerry.

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Pariah said:
Mxy, how can you expect me to be polite when you won't even join my ticket?

But I like girls!

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rex said:
It would still be a problem with prison security.

You're absolutly right. It IS a problem with prison security and Prison security varies depending on funding the ability to corrupt the system with money etc... All and all teh prison security can be bypassed in some cases by murderers. You know what they can't overcome? Death.

Someone else mentioned them being imprisoned with thier peers as being punishment enough. That works with molesters and to a lesser degree rapists, but murderers are at the top of the prison food chain. They recieve a level or respect and honor. Among the prison "tribe" they are the chiefs some could agrue that they get exactly what they want in prison. In prison they're free to kill and rape other inmates. Take for example a car thief, he's going to be in the same prison with the murderers where he'll most likely be abused and raped by th same.

I think the worlds focus has come to the point where we lean way too hard in teh direction of protecting criminals rather than protecting victims. here in Washington the (guess wich way they lean politically) Supreme court decided that anyone who murdered someone, but the victim died in an ambulance or the hospital rather than immediately, should have thier convictions overturned. So the thugs who beat a guy to death in the middle of the street durring Mardi Gras and teh Step father who beat his 3 year old stepson to death are back on the streets along with many more who fit the same profile. This wouldn't be an issue if these people were removed from the equaion shortly after being found guilty of murder

www.getfirefox.com

Automatic spell check.

Quote:

Captain Sammitch said:
Guess what? We're all gonna die.

By that account, doing anything at all is irrelevant, because we're all going to die eventually, and everything we've ever worked for is going to have been for nothing.

But sure, there are people who will be able to enjoy the fruits of our labour after we die. As is the same with Saddam's execution. Those who has been wronged by him, imprisoned by him, tortured by him and killed by him can now rest easy as he has faced justice for his actions.

Sure, it's not really going to matter to those who are already dead, but I think you know what I mean

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rex said:
www.getfirefox.com

Automatic spell check.

www.monster.com

I really don't care.

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Job Title: Proofreader
Primary Skills: Typing Skills; Basic computer skills
Job Industry: Miscellaneous
Vacancies: 1
Job City: Harbor City
Job Metro Area: Harbor City
Job State: CA
Job Country: US
Salary: $10/HOURLY To $10/HOURLY
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Certificates/Licenses:

Heh.

g-tards unite!

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rex really said:
Lonely. So Lonely.

how do any of you feel about the apparent humiliation of Saddam just prior to his execution?

I for one think it's uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Sure, basically evil dictator, but still a man about to die. Executing him may or may not have been the right thing to do. But I still can't accept that there were those who would humilitate a condemned man like that, ruthless ex-dictator or not.

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Chant said:
how do any of you feel about the apparent humiliation of Saddam just prior to his execution?

I for one think it's uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Sure, basically evil dictator, but still a man about to die. Executing him may or may not have been the right thing to do. But I still can't accept that there were those who would humilitate a condemned man like that, ruthless ex-dictator or not.

I'm sorry if this sounds snarky, but when considering the man killed hundreds of thousands of people tortured and raped women and had thier families killed when they protested are you saying it's a grave injustice that some people tried to hurt his feelings before hanging him? This is what I call misplaced outrage.

I have to agree with WBAM here...I mean, come on, with all the evil things he did to the people of Iraq, how can anyone care overmuch about hurting Saddam's feelings?

If he had been executed 2,000 years ago, he'd most likely have been nailed to a cross and taken a few days to die....and have been laughed at and made fun of the whole time till he finally expired.

The bastard got off easy, IMO.

I'm not saying it's a grave injustice. I just can't get behind and support the humiliation of a man, ANY man who's about to be executed!

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The bastard got off easy, IMO.

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Chant said:
I'm not saying it's a grave injustice. I just can't get behind and support the humiliation of a man, ANY man who's about to be executed!

I think that's easy for you to say because you haven't met with severe oppression and tyranny. I can't say what happened was classy, but I can't fault the Iraqi people for doing it either.

PBS News Hour, January 1, 2007

This panel discussion gives some interesting insights into the political and symbolic value and detriment of Saddam Hussein's execution:

1) SLOGANS AT SADDAM'S EXECUTION MANIFEST WHO IS THE TRUE POLITICAL POWER IN IRAQ

2) THE HASTE OF SADDAM'S EXECUTION UNDERCUT THE PERCEPTION OF DEMOCRATIC AND LEGITIMATE IRAQI GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY

3) THE HASTY EXECUTION MISSED THE OPPORTUNITY TO COMPLETELY SHOWCASE THE FULL SCOPE OF SADDAM'S GENOCIDE, AND ALSO SHORTCHANGED THE KURDS OF THEIR DAY OF JUSTICE.

On the plus side, Saddam is dead, like his sons. Saddam's possible return to power is no longer a rallying cause. There is no rightful heir or leader for all the various resistance factions to collectively rally around.

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thedoctor said:
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Chant said:
I'm not saying it's a grave injustice. I just can't get behind and support the humiliation of a man, ANY man who's about to be executed!

I think that's easy for you to say because you haven't met with severe oppression and tyranny. I can't say what happened was classy, but I can't fault the Iraqi people for doing it either.

And I think you're partially right. I'm not really blaming them either. I can understand why they would want to see him humiliated before he dies. As a sort of revenge.

And I've said this before. His crimes does not really justify ours.

It would, in my opinion, have been better if he had been allowed to die with what little dignity he had left.

Humiliating a man who's about to be executed or supporting the humiliation? We're supposed to be better than that!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6225337.stm

Quote:

Mobile phone captures Iraq's cruelty

The phone camera footage of Saddam Hussein's execution may prove to be the most controversial media disclosure from Iraq since snapshots of US guards abusing prisoners inside Abu Ghraib were published in 2004.

While those pictures were revealed in the US media, the Saddam video appears to have been a purely Iraqi affair.

As foreign news organisations downloaded it from the internet, it was already being swapped among ordinary Iraqis on their mobile phones.

The Iraqi government's own, edited version, was undermined by the ugly audio of the shouted sectarian Shia slogans.

The mobile phone, that symbol of freedom and independence, had come into its own in Iraq in the most dramatic way.

Alarming images

For many outsiders, one of the most graphic horrors of the Iraqi conflict has been the posting of beheading videos on the internet but, within the country, interactive communications rest on the phone, not the web.

Just 0.1% of a population of nearly 27 million has web access, according to a 2006 estimate published by Internet World Stats. By contrast, neighbouring Iran has about 100 times as many, it says.

Meanwhile, websites like YouTube and Ogrish.com positively teem with clips posted by US soldiers of their service in Iraq.

Officially, the US military confines its monitoring to scouring blogs for factual inaccuracies but there is also concern about some of the videos and stills appearing, a US military public affairs officer in Iraq told the BBC last year.

Such material, he said, might be used by America's enemies to portray US soldiers as "barbaric warmongers".

It appears that Iraq's government was similarly concerned about how the execution of Saddam would be portrayed.

"Before we went into the room we had an agreement that no-one should bring a mobile phone," Sami al-Askari, an adviser to Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki, said afterwards.

Execution for sale

Phones are what Iraqis now have in relative abundance: since the 2003 invasion, the number of handsets has gone from 1.2m land lines to 4.6m land and mobile lines, according to the US government.

"The new handsets are reliable and widely affordable," Amer al-Harky, a 25-year-old doctor in the Iraqi Kurdish city of Irbil, told the BBC News website.

After the February 2006 attack on the Shia shrine in Samarra, staff at the BBC bureau in Baghdad noted a surge in gory video of the conflict being swapped between mobile phones.

One clip, for instance, showed what appeared to be Shia gunmen killing a Sunni man.

On the day after Saddam's hanging, a trader in a Shia part of Baghdad told AFP news agency that his mobile phone shop was selling the gallows phone camera footage for 500 dinars (40 US cents) a time.

And for those without a mobile, video of Iraq's death squads and their victims is available to buy on DVD.

"The DVDs are not openly on sale but you can go to certain shops and buy these things for less than one US dollar," says Dr Harky.

Simon Henderson of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, who has written a biography of Saddam, recalls that "horrific" footage of political suspects being tortured under Saddam's rule was sold on tapes or DVDs in the streets after he was overthrown.

'Inexperience'

Given the interest in Saddam's own execution, how could the Iraqi authorities and their US allies have allowed a camera to enter the gallows room along with the official one?

US-based media analyst Danny Schechter, who describes the execution as a "colonial hanging", believes it was a "unique example of a total screw-up", coming after what he describes as a long procession of miscalculations by the Iraqi and US authorities.

Its handling, he said, showed a refusal to listen to advice and a willingness to risk sectarian violence in Iraq.

However, concealed cameras at executions are nothing new, US strategy analyst Anthony Cordesman of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies says.

"This is not something that governments are likely to prevent unless they have great experience and certainly this government obviously didn't," he told the BBC News website, recalling how a US reporter secretly photographed an execution in 1928 with a camera strapped to his ankle.

Mr Cordesman points out that the execution had to be conducted at short notice in a way where it "could not become the subject of terrorism, there couldn't be rescue attempts and witnesses had to be rushed in with very little preparation".

"This is wartime, it is a situation where the Iraqi government is in considerable disarray and you are operating in a region where Western standards, to put it mildly, don't apply," he says.

Simon Henderson suggests that the desire of some Iraqis to see footage of Saddam's execution owes much to the brutalisation of society under his rule.

This, after all, was a man who used to take his own sons Uday and Qusay to witness torture sessions.

I realize, of course, that western standards do not apply in the middle-east. Different people, different culture. We all know that.

And I am in no way opposed to Saddam's execution. He deserved to pay for his crimes and now he has.
But you will never convince me that it's right to humiliate a man, any man who's about to be executed.

That just doesn't sit right with me.

But then again, different nation, different people, different culture. And the standards we're supposed to uphold here in western world don't apply.

Quote:

Chant said:
But then again, different nation, different people, different culture. And the standards we're supposed to uphold here in western world don't apply.

Essentially, that's the crux of it all right there with little exception (I'll point to the death of Mussolini). You've got a culture that is steeped in violence. They're going to react differently than we are in this situation.

And we could, of course, keep arguing the point for a myriad of directions. Some could argue that it is a sort of poetic justice that Saddam was denied the dignity that his victims were denied at their deaths. Others could continue with the morality of a death sentence to begin with. The fact is that it wasn't us or any other Western country. The Iraqis did it. It was their government and their people. The decision was theirs to make and to follow through on. I don't have to like it or support it. Then again, I didn't have to live under Saddam's rule.

But is it the Iraqi people ?

I heard a report that I can't seem to confirm with a link, that Muqtada al-Sadr is claiming that his men executed Saddam Hussein, not the Iraqi government.

I suspect that's not true, but he is projecting that perception, and widespread fear in the Sunni population.

If al-Sadr's men killed Hussein, then it was ethnic cleansing, and not a legitimate war crimes trial and execution. And if that is not true, but still the widely held perception, then the impact on Iraq's democratic authority is largely the same.

If anyone cares, here's Wikipedia's overview of the execution of Saddam, its impact in Iraq, reaction by human rights groups, and endorsement and condemnation of the execution by nations across the globe.

Several Boys Die Copying Saddam Hanging
By ANNA JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer
1 hour ago

CAIRO, Egypt - The boys' deaths _ scattered in the United States, in Yemen, in Turkey and elsewhere in seemingly isolated horror _ had one thing in common: They hanged themselves after watching televised images of Saddam Hussein's execution.

Officials and relatives say the children appeared to be mimicking the former dictator's Dec. 30 hanging, shown both on a sanitized Iraqi government tape and explicit clandestine videos that popped up on Web sites and some TV channels.

The leaked videos, apparently taken by cell phone cameras, set off international outrage over the raucous scene at Saddam's execution, but some experts are more concerned about the images of the deposed Iraqi leader dropping through the gallows floor and his body swinging at the end of a rope.

The experts say such graphic images can severely affect youngsters who do not yet understand the consequences of death and violence _ especially because Saddam's death received intense international attention.

"They see how it's done, but they don't think it's horrific, and they're more likely to imitate it," said Hisham Ramy, an associate professor of psychiatry at Ain Shams University in Cairo.

A day after Saddam's execution, a 10-year-old boy in Texas hanged himself from a bunk bed after watching a news report on the execution. Police in the Houston suburb of Webster said the boy, Sergio Pelico, tied a slipknot around his neck while on the bed but had not mean to kill himself.

"I don't think he thought it was real," Julio Gustavo, Sergio's uncle, said afterward. "They showed them putting the noose around his neck and everything. Why show that on TV?"

Something similar occurred in Turkey, where 12-year-old Alisen Akti hanged himself Wednesday from a bunk bed after watching TV footage. His father, Esat Akti, told a newspaper in the southeastern province of Mus that his son had been affected by the televised images.

"After watching Saddam's execution he was constantly asking 'How was Saddam killed?' and 'Did he suffer?'" Akti was quoted as saying. "These television images are responsible for my son's death."

Nine-year-old Mubassahr Ali, from the eastern Pakistan town of Rahim Yar Khan, died hours after Saddam when he also mimicked the ousted leader's execution, local police official Sultan Ahmed Chaudhry said.

"The ill-fated boy used a long piece of cloth, tied it with a ceiling fan and wrapped its other end around his neck. Then he stood on a chair and fell down," Chaudhry said.

In Yemen, at least two young boys died and another was injured in apparent imitations of Saddam's hanging.

One of the cases involved a 13-year-old junior high school student who hanged himself after watching Saddam's execution on television, a Yemeni security official said.

When the boy's family returned to their home outside the capital, San'a, on Wednesday, they found him hanging from a tree wearing a traditional Arab headdress, said the boy's cousin, Yahya al-Hammadi.

In Saudi Arabia, a 12-year-old boy was found by his brother hanging from an iron door with a rope around his neck, the newspaper Okaz reported. The boy, Sultan Abdullah al-Shemmeri, lived with his family in the province of Hafr al-Baten, near the Iraqi border.

"The child was just 12 years old and didn't really know whether the execution of Saddam was something good or bad," a Saudi Interior Ministry official said Saturday. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the press.

Local media in Algeria and India also have reported other mimicking deaths, but these could not immediately be confirmed.

Ramy, the professor in Egypt, said children are prone to imitating violence they encounter on television, the Internet and movies, but usually they act out against another person. Mimicking a hanging or suicide is unusual, but perhaps in this case it is unsurprising, he said.

Because "some people have said Saddam is a hero and martyr and have glorified his death, this has affected children," Ramy said.

But Jasem Hajia, a child psychologist in Kuwait City, cautioned against placing all the blame on video images. "This is extreme, and I think there were physiological disorders as well with the children," Hajia said.

darwin wins again

yeah, at 10 or older you are just idiotic to do that stuff without the intent of committing suicide... I agree with Rex-Darwin wins...

At least the world is spared further idiocy from them!

"Dope On a Rope:Toy company president defends action figure depicting Saddam's execution"

Quote:

the G-man said:
"Dope On a Rope:Toy company president defends action figure depicting Saddam's execution"

I hope this figure comes with a warning for kids on the figure's packaging.. it could say this : Don't try this at home. Hanging kills people, you dumb little shits!

I think your posts should come with a warning.

I find the poetic justice argument surrounding the nature of Saddam's execution to be relatively irrelevant, I am more concerned with the escalating effect on the sectarian violence. I think it suggests incompetence on the part of the officials involved if they really thought that they could let it happen that way and it wouldn't get out.

Quote:

rex said:
This unresolved sexual tension between Jerry and myself is tearing the board apart

There. Fixed it for you.