RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Comic Books finally, the firestorm *has come back* to dc comics!

... except, this time, he'll prolly be black.

or, at least, thats the current speculation, causing many a ... ... flamewar... on the various comic book message boards.

so, uh... lets do that here, too.

some people just want their original guy back. no changes.

some are pissed that the character could become a franchise, changing the cast along the way.

some are simply mad that he's (possibly, mind you) becoming a black character, simply to fill what they call a quota.

and, still, there are some who welcome the change -- a fresh look to an old (and cancelled) character.

thoughts?

The six pages I read in Wizard didn't impress me. I'll wait until the first issue comes out and flip through it, though. I could care less about race or any other changes, and the vast majority of DCMB-posters need to relax , unclench their ass-cheeks, and remember its just a comic book...

Hell yeah.


I have faith that Jolley and Cross can pull it off. So the fuck what if it's a black character... if it was a new, white one nobody would say anything about that.

And... to be honest... Ronnie Raymond is stale. Complicated. And unlikable. He can't keep his own book. I think this is a good way to go, as long as Raymond is sufficiently written off (unlike Byrne's Doom Patrol).

i enjoyed the original run as well as the "elemental" version, i think it's a shame no one had the creative juices to continue the elemental version i think there were still some good stories to be told...

I grew up reading the second series, written by Gerry Conway with art by Pat Rodriguez (sp?). I always associate the smell of handbugers in shopping malls with Firestorm, because that's where I read my first one (where Firestorm turns into the Hyena).

Really liked the character as a kid, used to spend summers in the pool swimming underwater pretending I was Firestorm. As I grew up I started swimming underwater instead looking at girls' arses. Firestorm became a fond memory of my youth.

When Mike Carey was originally assigned writing chores, I wold have read it because I think Carey does a great job on Lucifer. If he could bring that level of sophistication to a superhero comic - maybe something similar to James Robinson on Starman - then I would have read it.

But Carey got dumped. I've never heard of the current creative team on the book, and the elevator pitch I've read makes it sound pretty run of the mill superhero fare, which isn't my preferred reading.

On the issue of making Firestorm black.... fine by me. There aren't enough black characters in the DCU, and now we've got another black role model who has significant powers (not too many characters could take out Superman with a wave of his hand, encasing him in kryptonite). Not sure how that would work with Ronnie Raymond and Firehawk, although I'm sure there is some sort of technical bullshit explanatory device for it.

It just seems that a black character has to always come in second. Giant Man, Dr. Midnight 2, Green Lantern, Captain Marvel & now Firestorm. Wish they would/could incorporate some of the old Milestone characters into the DCU proper. Having said that, from what I've read about the project, it does sound good. I liked Ronnie but much of his charm way back when, was that he was the new kid on the block IMHO

i dont think they should make him black anytime you revamp a character and make him black it seems like tokenism, and in reality it is. if you want more black characters build em from the ground up.....

also i think white people would be very scared of a black man running around with fire coming out of his head....

Building them from the ground up leaves us with stupid characters like Triathlon. Adding the name "Firestorm" at least gives them a chance of surviving. Of course, its a bit arse about. After all, Firestorm itself didn't survive in the long run. And even Chrisopher Priest acknowledges (in the intro to the first Black Panther tpb) that titles about black characters usually don't last long.

Quote:

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Wish they would/could incorporate some of the old Milestone characters into the DCU proper.

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I agree with that but Dwayne McDuffie still owns them all, I think.

Seems like the middle ground between bringing back an old character to please old fans, and introducing a new character to grab new readers... both valid reasons for starting a new book, but when you try to compromise between the two it may not succeed on either front.

Old Firestorm fans don't want some new guy in the suit, and new readers don't give a shit about an old character with pre-existing continuity like Firestorm.

Danny, do you have evidence of this "new reader" you're talking about?

Well... there's me.

It's just a theory, anyway.

Too easy! G'nort!

If he wasn't a Green Lantern, he wouldn't have a fan base. He'd just be a talking dog, like Mr Tawlky Tawney from Cap Marvel is a talking tiger.

Mr Terrific and the Crimson Avenger in JSA are examples involving black people.

When reading the responses to this, my mind popped in a phrase from the first episode of Chapelle's Show that "Clayton Bixby" said. "Now see here, no one in my family was in anyway involved in any niggerdom."

The threat of a black super hero? Yikes! It doesn't bother me. And I have no concerns about quota. I see more black people reading comics nowadays then in the 80s when Ronnie Raymond was the struggling angst filled teen who had to put up with mean football players, an evil stepmother, and Crisis. Plus, he was in the JLA.

But there are always white heroes being popped out, or rather, old ones who stay around, and being updated for current situations (see Smallville or look at Wally West). Kyle Rayner was an attempt at this. People saw it, and the majority that was paying attention did not care for it.

So what if they make the new Firestorm black? It's really a case of finding a protagonist readers can identify with. It makes them more willing to pick up a comic. Some dismiss the comic on the same principle if the character is not one they can "connect" with. I don't read Wonder Woman. Never did. Only two comics I read where the protagonist was a black person were Green Lantern (John Stewart, back in the mid 80s) and that Shadowhawk piece of crap from Image. You know, the age of pretty covers. Two issues in, I stopped, just like all the other image comics I use for starting fires.

No good or bad that he is a minority, and the theory that it had to be a quota is, to me, rather silly. The way I look at it, the majority of comic writers are white males, and they tended to write comics for white males. So, the protagonists were... yup, white males. But the world is a little different than that.

Not everyone is white. I don't know how many people have slanted eyes, but I know one billion of them live in China. How many people have dark skin? One billion live in India. How many people are white? Before you start to think of U.S., remember that this is a cultural melting pot, where the largest minority is now hispanics, followed by African Americans. So, there are people of other colors and nationalities too.

Comics generaly did not give them any kind of representation because the writer and reader did not deem it to be important, and also the publisher did not deem it to be profitable. But times change. Firestorm could become one of those marketable icons, and DC is possibly looking to make a character that African Americans can identify with. So while girls buy Wonder Woman underoos, and some white nerdlings buy batman, superman, green lantern and flash t-shirts, maybe Firestorm too, will become a future icon and expand the culture gap.

Hell. Maybe I will buy a few issues. Nah. I will buy the first tpb. I hate doing the monthly thing.

it woulda been difficult, but that part of the dc universe had not really been explored that much and i thought the small run it had was very interesting, if memory is correct sales picked up but by then it had already been decided to get thte axe...

It will be a disaster that probably lasts about 12 issues. It is doomed from the start. Chriscross is at best a capable artist. Dan Jolley is a relative unknown.

In my opinion that isn't the way to start off a new character. firestorm has a small fan following of loyalists. But a new firestorm has none. I don't see it working personally unless it gets good initial buzz and reviews. And with all the new stuff both companies are pushing this Summer I'm betting it will get lost in teh competition. It's early summer release may work to it's benefit though if the word of mouth is good.

The whole idea just smacks of a lack of any real thought!
They cant come up with an idea for a new black character so they just make a new version of an old character!
Next black characters DC & Marvel will be creating are:
Robin
Dr.Strange
Ghost Rider
Captain America
Superboy
Captain Ghetto

Sounds here like there is a general animosity towards black superheroes. Not because they don't sell well, but because you simply don't like them.

One character that I suppose could use black protagonist would be the Punisher. Frank Castle's origin is based on the premise that he was a soldier in Nam and served 5 years. By all accounts, he would be in his 50s. My uncle served in Nam and takes great care of himself, but the wrinkles and thinning hair are there. It's a sign of comics' inability to adhere to continuity or realism (duh).

But, while I like Frank, and I love what Ennis has done with him, you have a person on a holy war. Anyone can have a holy war against crime. I think.

But have a guy in a ghetto doing some nice police work or something. His whole family get firebombed by some politician with gangster ties. The police don't do anything, and the neighborhood cries for social injustice. So, this guy has a vendetta against everyone who is corrupt. I would buy that.

yeah i reawlly dont see anyone not wanting black characters, just people saying that revamping an existing character and making him black is a wate of time, i also would think that the argument that it gives them a better shot at succeeding would be more offensive.....i was always a big power man and iron fist fan, i thouyght the stories were good and the characters original, i didnt think of Power Man as a black superhero just a damn good character, but when you take an existing character and change his color it strikes of a gimmick....fairly or unfairly its what people think....

Well, okay. You guys made some points. Let's back up a few steps:

Miller made Robin a girl in Dark Knight Returns

Geoff Johns made Star Spangled Kid a girl in JSA/Stars and Stripe (or maybe someone else did, I don't fucking care)

Austen made Union Jack a chick in his new Invaders.

Mr. Terrific is a Darkie

Bill Foster became the second Giant Man.

JJ has that nifty little pen that releases a genie.

So what is so special about Ronnie Raymond? Yeah, I liked him too, but Firestorm doesn't seem to be that character that is central to him, where he brings something totally unique to it. The professor was a different firestorm... the elemental one, traveling through space.

It's one of those things that seems like a power, more than a character.... kind of like Green Lantern's ring, or that Captain

and none of those characters has any lasting power in books on their own, i think they were all "plugged" in and forgotten about....

Ok, read this book and didn't like it. Jason, the new guy, was handled very well. Jolley made sure not to fall into stereotypical characterizations for a black character; but the story was still ho-hum. The cliches came in elsewhere. An abusive father, though an apologetic one, and money problems, though he's rolling a somewhat new SUV, as well as him trying to get ahead by mixing up with the wrong crowd. The story was slow and didn't leave me any reason to buy another issue. I'll let some other sucker pay for it and read his copy just like I did the last one.

BTW, that reminds me. Hi, Pro!

I don't mind the new FS being African American, but the original costume looks weird on black skin. They should have redesigned it.

Read issue one... it was very 'bla'. I'll buy the first arc maybe, but this was just a very generic issue.

I'm joining this discussion late, so forgive me, but wasn't Mike Carey originally suppose to be doing the new Firestorm book?

I only remembered it because I thought he was an odd choice, given his current resume(Vertigo books, mainly).

I think generally the problem with black characters is that, as said earlier, they tend to be merely plugged in to satisfy diversity quotas. Occasionally, however, you see a writer do some good work with one, though. I really enjoyed Steel's portrayal under Grant Morrison during his JLA run. I also liked what Geoff Johns did with the new Mr. Terrific.

Carey got pulled off last year, for undisclosed reasons.

I love the new Mr. Terrific... the suit's kind of funky, but it works.

Carey got a phone call from DC's editors, telling him he was off the book, after plotting out the first 6 issues and it being n the industry press. Embarrassing.