RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Writer's Block Vanguard International needs a "shake up"?

Last day I was chatting with one of you, and it was said that now, with the split, and the bankrupticy brought up by Gooz's plot, it could be a good time to "shake things up".

The poster I was chatting with proposed to do a story in which Vanguard save some important head of states from some menace, and the legislation about metahuman discrimination is cancelled, allowing the Vanguardians to be finally free to go wherever they want without needs of covers and such... I replied that the upcoming Vanguard vs MBL story should address that, and that another story would be redundant.

Still I think this is a good moment to ask every poster of Vanguard International what they would like to see done with Vanguard... the peoples that in the last two years had put most effort into advancing the role of Vanguard are gone, so now it's up to us.

I especially would like to know from the ones that (at last in talks, I don't know about chats) have very seldom, if ever, expressed wishes about our stories.

So, what about Vanguard?

1) They must remain a small, covert private company about "special tasks", like it is now, but that in fact has been used a sa concept only in issue 11, 12 and 16? Or a more straight superhero team, with public international (or just local) founding? Or something completely different?

2) They have to stay based on La Perdita, or on a different setting?

3) What about the supporting staff? Are there character you would see gone, or want to keep around?

The team official roster is composed, as of now, by:

Danny Hearn
The Raptor
Phil Smith
Priest
Banshee
Mason
Werewolf Max
Pouka
BruteForce

Plus Grissom in the supporting staff.

I would like to know from each one of the posters of these ten characters their ideas.

Mine are:

1) I would go for the "superheroes" route, after the Vanguard/MBL showdown would change the global perspective on metas, even if only at legislation level. The kind of stories we mostly do claims for that. The basic concept of vanguard as a company specialized in adventure has been used seldom... in fact only in issue 11. Stories like 12 and 16 could have worked also for a "superhero" team.
I wouldn't give them an international sanction, as I think we have not yet done a Strikeforce/Vanguard competition, and it was something some of us would be interested into doing. So, while a new Strikeforce team would remain the peacekeeping force of the UN, like now, I would found the Vanguard superhero team directly from the government of La Perdita (like TOMB was founded by Mandelovia, I think). Obviously La Perdita is not a very rich country by now, but I have a small idea that would be able to generate founds... Maybe I would also change the name to something reflecting the new role... something like The E.Y.E (Extraordinary Yeomen of Earth ) or EarthWatch... the name Vanguard would remain in good hands within the European team.

2) This answer also the second question: I would prefer to stay on la Perdita. It's a rich environment, with many characters (the costumers of Jake's bar, Baaghrupta, the Vanguard hating Minister of Defense, the natives...). I would just try to improve the general conditions of the country, to make it something special, like special was Mandelovia.

3) As for the supporting staff, I like everyone, maybe I would just add someone to replace the role of Shirley as receptionist.

Please, everyone express their ideas, so that any advancement/improvement to the team conditions are not expression of few, but are shared trough the majority of posters.

I'm sticking to my 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' stance on this one. Superheroes are incredibly kitschy and clíchéd unless they're done as the product of absolute genius - and I myself don't claim to be that caliber of a writer. I love the location we currently have for the team's headquarters, and I don't see much of a point in changing anything there. I don't think the team needs to change its role particularly; it seems to me they keep redefining their role every mission. With all the new talent and new characters we keep getting, there's no sense in constantly wanting to shake things up; it leaves no sense of permanence, no predictable base (I'm afraid to drop the C-word around you guys ) for writers to build on. Just let things happen for the next few issues before deciding everything needs to be overhauled every other issue, okay?

And I'm very hesitant to change the name. I haven't heard any individual suggestions I like yet, and we all know that ideas by committee generally suck.

Thanks, very good answers, Sammitch.

1.) I like the idea of Vanguard never truly being "accepted" by the world at large - as heroes, as metas, whatever. The only way I can see the "superhero" route really working in this universe - and, again, this is me - is (a.) individual vigilantes, like NightWatch (a.k.a. Drake Marshall) or (b.) big government funded groups like Strikeforce or the PSI Unit. If Vanguard were to become a superhero team, in my mind, they would have to become Strikeforce. I'm afraid to have two superhero groups with similar purposes co-exist for fear that we'll easily dispose of the Strikeforce like we did the PSI Unit back in Issue #10. All the same, I'm not sure this is a route we should take quite yet. (I'm not even addressing the needs of characters like Phil who would probably not want to go public in a superhero-type setting.)

As I said before the mistrust towards Vanguard and metas in general should remain the one constant in their make-up... something that's lasted since Hero Revolution #0 until today. They may not be on the run from the authorities any longer, but there is still an over-arching feeling of foreboding among the general populace that should not be overlooked, methinks.

2.) We've all put a lot of hard work and effort into the creation of La Perdita and Puerta Mibela. To leave now would, I think, be a slap in the face to every writer that's contributed something to the landscape. Also, Euro, in defense of La Perdita, I really don't think the setting needs to change at all. In my mind, La Perdita is as special as Mandelovia, simply because it is the setting of our story. We don't need to, in my mind, transform it into a technologically superior nation with a Presidential-Prime Ministerial palace. However, we can use what we've created as a basis and, like Mandelovia, create a history for this small Caribbean island. Nothing fancy, like we did for Mandelovia, but something, at least.

3.) The support staff is a vital part of Vanguard. In my mind, they are the pulse. Getting rid of them would be worse than leaving La Perdita. Everyone of us has invested something in the lives of Shirley, Kit, Nuriko, Miss X, and Charley. To continue without them would be like continuing to sprint with only one leg to stand on.

While I don't feel Vanguard needs any changes now, I think these ideas might be something to work toward in the future... but only if we have a total group consensus on the subject! That part, I'm adamant about! If one member chooses not to participate, we scrap the whole thing, rather than force anyone into something they aren't comfortable with. And, as I have shared my true feelings on the subject, I expect no less from the other posters. There. I've said my piece.

Thanks Chewy.

I did this post so that any (eventual) change is brought up not on the whim of a single poster, but because everyone is cool with it.

To explain better my position, I have to say this:
when I talk about superheroes, I am not saying the characters should do things different from now. In fact, from my point of view they are superheroes right now. I am referring only to their organization... because we say they are a contractors company, but very seldom they work that way. My would be just the recognition of what they are doing right now. But, still, if general consensus is toward the business company, I am with it.

Also, when I said that La Perdita should become something special, I was not imply it should become an advanced technologically nation like Mandelovia. My vision is just to develope "a little more" the fact that the island is "a heaven" for metas. Today is just that metas there are "accepted", instad of being persecuted like in most of the world. I would just make the step to have the metas "welcomed" instead of simply being accepted. It would be a logical step, sionce la Perdita is maybe the only place in the world where the truth behind the Antarctic War is know.
In that setting, I would have Vanguard simply replacing the old role of the PSI Unit (without having them operating just on the island). Nothing more. If Vanguard one day will replace (or become) the Strikeofrce, is not a thing that scare me, but it's still too much early, for me.

Anyway, thanks again for the answer, Chewy, this was exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for.

As far as La Perdita as a meta "haven", I much prefer the idea of the strong metahuman underground as mentioned in Greetings from Sunny La Perdita. There, metas were not the overwhelming norm, but rather were like a subculture of the island (like the cyberpunk kids in Warren Ellis' Mek).

Again, I think where metahumans exist, there should be opposition. I see the meta situation here a lot like Marvel's mutant situation. No one is going to completely accept it at any given time. If any meta "haven" exists in this universe we've created, I'd say it's Manhattan... and that was only through means of hostile takeover, so to speak. Personally, I'm not sure that I like the idea of widespread meta acceptance - even if it is only on La Perdita.

Heh.

I can't make light of Chewy's Ellis references without him bringing up my tiring Planetary fixation.

I still can't decide what to do with my other character. Isn't Leslie technically still on the support staff?

Just some opinions from my absent self.

1) Either way I would be ok with. I think both versons (public superheroes and private businees) have many possibilities and directions. So I'm up for either.

2) I kinda like La Perdita and how we have shaped it.

3) I use the supporting staff more than my regular characters... heh.

Wow, talk about non descisive answers Chewy actually brings up a very interesting point, it might someday be fun to write members of Vanguard becoming the Strikeforce. Just an idea if things get stale.

Thank you Gooz, concise yet exaustive.

About the metahuman acceptance, I was talking only about cancelling the laws about discriminations. Winning the heart of the world population it's something will require generations, so there will be always a big degree of disliking for the metas.
By the way, I have not very big problems with the situation as it is, being me the first one that has written about metas persecution in the very first post about the HR Universe. But there are other posters that strongly adverse this... that's why I would like to know, from the current ten posters of Vanguard Int. what they actually think.

About La Perdita, I guess having the metas coming out of the shadows would be a logical step after things like the Metahuman Pride Festival of the Christmast issue. Bit I concur everything should be done step by step.

I do hate the "meta-hate" subplot, if only because it's been so poorly handled and extremely inconsistent. If we were going to try to write it in a more consistent and "realistic" way, we'd have to cut out 90% of the travelling Vanguard does.

The trip into the U.S., for instance, when the team went to Nevada? Uh-uh. Impossible. How the hell can an outlawed team from an outlawed nation fly an unauthorized jet over U.S. airspace without being noticed or shot down? I just know someone's going to come on here and say something about Vanguard's plane having some kind of "cloaking device" or something that disguises the plane as a passenger plane, or some other kind of techno-thingie that's supposed to work like magic -- but how likely is it that a two-bit company on a tiny Caribbean island is going to have access to technology that the most advanced, most powerful nation on EARTH does not have access to and which cannot be circumvented by U.S. technology? Face it -- if Vanguard's world has more advanced technology than our own world, then the technology held by the U.S. government would be even more advanced than that. So in reality Vanguard's travel would be limited in the extreme. No quick trips to Britain or the U.S. Maybe a trip to the Dominican Republic, Martinique, or Venezuela might work, but even that is pushing it.

So in effect the whole "hunted metas" and "meta-hate" thing is a sham already. A complete farce. And it's something that was effectively thrown out already once the team began to work on a global scale. I'm in favour of simply ignoring it and concentrating on the stories themselves, or getting the team genuinely "cleared" of wrongdoing somehow. In any case, I'm planning on just ignoring any "meta-hate" stuff from this point on. As far as I'm concerned, the team is just a team of adventurers/heroes who go where the action is. They're not the X-Men, they're definitely NOT the JLA (or even the MBL), and not even the Challengers of the Unknown ...

So in effect I'm saying we should play up the team's strengths and drop the weaknesses that are little more than a hindrance on storytelling.

I'd really like to hear from the other posters on this point. Active ones, I mean. Chewy, I know you always have an opinion, but if you really want a say in things, you should start writing in the stories on a regular basis again...

Chewy coming back? GREAT!

Reposted from the talk thread:

It might be time to simply ditch the idea of a "Maxwell Lord" type and go back to direct democracy, where the group makes its decisions collectively. Now that they're bankrupt -- for the second time, I might add -- it seems like a good time for the business end of things to wither away (not that it ever really existed except in prologues and epilogues) and for the team to simply do adventures as they come along. In practice we've been doing that already, so the pretense of the team being a "company" that I came up with in issue #6 might just be an idea whose time has passed. The team is already an adventure/superhero team -- we should just continue on that track and forget about the company/business side of it. Especially since the Vanguard Europe guys seem to have a pretty good handle on that. Van-Int'l are heroes, first and foremost, as much as I hate to admit it -- that's the way we've chosen to write them, and that's the way they work best. So let's concentrate on those strengths and thus concentrate on the team rather than the company/support staff/et cetera...

BTW, I'm not interested in having Vanguard become the preeminent "superhero team" of the world the same way the MBL was in the old universe. No, I think Vanguard works best when it has a low profile, or at least as low a profile as the other metahuman teams in the world (not counting Strikeforce). My vision is that the failed subplot of metahuman persecution directly affecting the team should continue to be ignored as it has generally been, or on the other hand taken to its logical conclusion -- the team being captured by an overwhelming military/meta force set against it by the authorities of the world and having the team be jailed and brought to trial. There's really no middle-ground here, since the team's headquarters is publically known by everyone now, and La Perdita itself could not withstand an invasion by U.S. forces or the Strikeforce if they chose to take the team in for its own "crimes." And I don't mean the acts of meta-terrorism done by the evil MBL -- I mean the various illegal acts that our team has committed since issue #0 and which are probably in a file somewhere. If we really wanted to be honest about it, there's no way the team could keep themselves from being brought in for trial either by the U.S. or by the U.N.'s International Court at the Hague. I don't really think we want to go this route, but if we do, it could make for a fairly climactic plot.

Sure Chewy, I know what it mean being a lot buys. But I know also that is practically impossible to saty away from the writing, too.

Vanguard being brought in front of some international court would really make for an interesting plot. But it's also true that stories like the Virus one has shown that Vanguard is useful for the same autorieties that persecute it... I don't think it a clear cut case here...

_______________________________________________________

In any case, what I would do right now is:

1) Grissom or Kit takes the role of temporary CEO in the emergence moment Vanguard is living. They start to look for new investors and liquidity to let Vanguard survive the crisis.

2)The meta-animal Cameron, the half chameleon with the regenerative powers from Aisling, comes with Vanguard from Nevada. He is tested by Quantos, who discovers that his regenerative gene could be used to cure many genetic diseases and wounds ONLY on metagene carrying people.

3) The drop of revenues from tourism, due to the (false) revelation that La Perdita is the home of the MBL made by Merlin in the Christmas issue, let the Government of La Perdita to ask for compensation to Vanguard, considered responsible for the economic crisis.

4) A deal is made between Vanguard and the government of La Perdita: Vanguard transfer the knowledge and technology related to the regenerative gene to the nation of La Perdita, which implements it in her medical facilities in exchange of public founding.
The regenerative cures are offered gratis to all the metas of the world, but they have to took residence in the island. That would bring on the island all the richest metas of the world (in need of cures) and also a lot less rich... but that in any case should jump start a new economic recovery.
Vanguard International become an organization publicly founded.

5) A leader is elected yearly for Vanguard, among its members.

This way, all change without nothing really change. Vanguard remains in its Complex, with the same low profile it has now, just they have not to worry about how the money to pay the bills come. The island become a sort of fiscal paradise for rich metas, not unlike what my Caribbeans Islands are for norms. Some more metas should come in, also bad ones, with some potential for new stories, but not in an exaggerate manner.

About the issue of metahuman persecution, one possible solution would be to have the anti.metas and the charges toward out team dropped selectively, so that while many nations are free for them, other are still forbidden. For example, I would like to see America remaining a dangerous place for them for long, while Europe (as the presence of Vanguard Europe imply) could become safer (although plans I have for Italy dictates the opposite). In any case, I would wait for the outcome of the Manhattan repossession story to see what will shape up out of it.

If Sam Dawson will finance the team (and also others could do the same) there is no need of anything else.

I do think we need a "shake up", but I don't know how. Any way will be fine with me, I think.

A suggestion: I think it would be interesting if we made a rule that says we don't leave La Perdita. That way we could explore the island much more than we have done so far. The fact that we're constantly travelling to another countries kinda annoys me.

Clarify what you mean, Mxy. Are you saying we should have ALL our cases on the island? Or should we just keep our headquarters in La Perdita? If the latter, I agree, but I think it would get just a bit too limiting if all our cases had to be on the island itself. There isn't all that much to a Caribbean island, y'know, even a fictional one. I do agree we should do more "local" stories, though, along with the world-traveling ones we've been doing all along. But if we just remain on the island we might as well call ourselves Vanguard La Perdita and forget about the "International" aspect...

Exactly. It's just a suggestion. I think it would be cool. Why go to another country, when we have a whole island to explore? Anything we can think of we can include there, as long as it's acceptable.
It just doesn't seem realistic to me to travel at all. Also, it's avoiding to explore the island.

I don't understand why it would be unrealistic to travel. They are (were?) a company, they took jobs wherever they wanted.
If it seemed unrealistic HOW they traveled, I can agree with that... too often we have not put attention at the time spent to travel to one part to the other of the globe (the intrduction of the UFO engine on the Stormloader was my attempt to explain the short time they needed to travel to one point to the other of the globe).

The only way I see the Vanguardian limited to the island is if we resume the old plot of them being on the run from all the powers of the world, like when they were in the Circus.

I must admit that it's not a concept that scare me... in fact, it would work perfectly with what I set up in the Christmas issue, when Merlin managed the world to believe Vanguard is the same of the MBL.

I would like to to a run of stories that has to be set exclusively on the island... let's say three or four stories, or a year... but at some point the name of Vanguard has to be cleared and they should be allowed to travel freely again (or for the first time, in effect).

Bear in mind, Mxy, that while you and most of the others have Vanguard Europe as a place to write different stories, I have just Vanguard International, so I would like to be able to explore the HR Universe and not to be limited to La Perdita FOREVER.

I'm not saying FOREVER. Obviously, if it doesn't work after one or two issues I'd drop it. I just think we could surprise ourselves and find out that La Perdita is cooler than we thought. If there aren't possibilities for good stories in La Perdita, we would be forced to create those possibilities.

I'll second that. It could be a good starting point for "relaunch" the serie.

La Perdita government retire the "business license" to Vanguard, as a consequence of pressures from the UN, due to the false accusations of Merlin.

And while they works underground to discover what's behind Strikeforce (it was Sammitch's plot, I have not forget it), they are forced to stay on the island.

I don't know Danny's story (next issue) what will be about, but after that we could try Mxy's idea. TTT's proposed one I know is compatible with that. And, like Mxy's said, if dit doesn't work, we could throw the concept away.

Recap of what has been said so far:

Six person out of ten posters have expressed ideas.

Sammitch and Chewy are for keeping the company framework, me and TTT for changing it to a founded organization, Gooz seems on the same line, proposing Sam Dawson as a financial backer for the team, while Mxy has asked for a complete revamp without indicating how it would be accomplished. In any case, a shift toward a privately founded organization, instead of a business company it seems would be accepted also by Chewy and Sammitch.

Everyone wants to stay on La Perdita. Mxy even proposes to stay ONLY over La Perdita, at last for a prolonged story arc, to force the writers to develop the island beyond the current limited corners we have seen in the story. I second the idea, as I thinks fit well with things we have hinted at recently, but not more than a year.

And only TTT has talked about concentrating over the main characters, leaving the secondary character out, or in the background. Mxy's has not said anything on the matter, while the others, more or less vocally, are interested in them.

I would really like to hear from Danny, NotWedge, CJ and BruteFroce.

Vanguard: business company or founded organization?
La Perdita: yes or no?
Secondary characters (the ones we have now): do you like them or not?

And also: would you accept to be forced to stay on La Perdita for a series of stories?

I think I've given it enough thought by now...

I like both Vanguard as a company and Vanguard as a private organization. Just keep in mind, if we swtich over, we need to make the change as smooth as possible.

A La Perdita story would be interesting. We concentrated on the capital during the Christmas story, and I enjoyed that. It's the team's home base. Charles Dickens had London. Kipling had India. Faulkner had...oh...whatever that funky county in As I Lay Dying is called. We have La Perdita. Location can be very important in a story.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And our stories are only as strong as our weakest characters and plot holes (er...like flying to Nevada...er...sorry). I don't like having secondary characters like Montag and Leslie so one-dimensional. They're not as important as the people on the field and in the bulk of the story, but that doesn't mean they have to be boring.

For the love of Pete! We can't develop all our characters if posters keep whining about the sacred one-character-per-poster rule!!! Leave these poor secondary characters alone! They're not causing any difficulty!

You people need to relax.

I was just trying to recap in half a line your words, TTT. I apologize if I have distorted what you originally said..

I'll be responding to all this when I get back from the office...

Fight scenes are great. In fact, I have it on good authority that fight scenes are fun and easy.

Supporting characters are good to have around in my opinion because they help generate ideas and move the plot along when we hit a wall with our primary characters. But I agree that sometimes the best stories there are involve secondary characters in a humor-driven plot written during a lull in the main story. (Remember Love?)

And Euro, I'm amused by how you stated what you said. That the current iteration of Vanguard is perfect for Phil but others would like a chance. I recall participating in numerous stories and settings that favored others' characters (including two or three issues that you spearheaded yourself) and not complaining (too much) about my character's lack of time in the spotlight. (We're gonna disregard #9 and #10 because I had no clue how to be a good writer at the time.) I do think that Phil has a prominent position in the current state of things, and in all honesty I wouldn't much mind taking advantage of that to write the way I should have been writing all along. I don't want my characters to be in the spotlight all the time, but that alone isn't a good reason at all for wanting to change things. You've benefited from situations that favor your own characters, as have all the others. Everybody gets a shot. I'd just hate to see mine cut short. I know that sounds selfish, but try to understand where I'm coming from, please.

Sammitch, I was elaborating over your words, in your first post of this talk thread that Vanguard don't need a shake up, because it is perfect as it is.

What is good and perfect for you, don't seems the same for others, myself included. And my problem is not that is not good for mine or other's characters, it is that doesn't seems interesting for POSTERS.

About Phil Smith, I am cool with him, especially since you started to gave him confidence in his mental powers. I am looking forward to your subplot about the Strikeforce, it's something that deeply interest me, In fact, I think that Phil is a crucial character for Vanguard.

About fight scenes, my big problem, I think, is the handling of the English language. To render visual scenes, one has to master the language a lot better than to write basic dialogues, and so I am in big difficult there. Yet, stories that are JUST fights, to me, are boring also to read, not only to write.

Same for me. I enjoy reading fight scenes, as long as they're not the only thing on the issue, but I never enjoy writing them (or trying to write them, since I don't think I've ever written a real fight scene).

I don't like writing fight scenes, either -- when I try to write them they end up really terrible. I'm more into characterization and character interaction.

Well, I like writing fight scenes. So there.

Never fear. The current story will not just be fight scenes. Probably.