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A. Why should I care? 90 year olds die all the time. Its not tragic, its just the way it is.
B. When I read a Golden Age comic I assume the creators are all dead anyway.
C. Rob is gay and the DCMB suck.
Bow ties are coool.
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whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
A. Why should I care?
Damn straight.
Bow ties are coool.
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I believe that was "as in reference to what you think about the subject".....not agreement. Check the 'title' of his post, in relation to what he says. Now say it outloud to yourself.
It's just simple respect, man. No one's asking you to honor him as the sabbath. The Golden Age guys did it first. They started the ball rolling. We grew up with the characters they gave us. What's the harm in appreciating that, and giving them a bit of 'thanks for the memories'?
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D. r3x29yz4a is the scum of the Earth.
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/blogban3.jpg) [/center] [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/jlamiska.jpg) [/center]
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I believe that was "as in reference to what you think about the subject".....not agreement. Check the 'title' of his post, in relation to what he says. Now say it outloud to yourself.
It's just simple respect, man. No one's asking you to honor him as the sabbath. The Golden Age guys did it first. They started the ball rolling. We grew up with the characters they gave us. What's the harm in appreciating that, and giving them a bit of 'thanks for the memories'?
Actually Planet of the Apes did it first.
Bow ties are coool.
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See, now you're just being strange....
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
D. r3x29yz4a is the scum of the Earth.
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
D. r3x29yz4a is the scum of the Earth.
Any idiot can preceed his post with a quote to seem like he's making a point.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
A. Why should I care?
Why should I care?
I'm outta my brain on the FIIIVE....fifteen.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
bump
I'd like to create a "bump" on your head, by slamming a tube sock filled with silver dollars over it, you degenerate asshole.
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
I'd like to create a "bump" on your head, by slamming a tube sock filled with silver dollars over it, you degenerate asshole.
Hi Chris Oakley!
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Hi there, I mean I'M NOT CHRIS OAKLEY!
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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Hi there, I mean I'M NOT CHRIS OAKLEY!
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I believe that was "as in reference to what you think about the subject".....not agreement. Check the 'title' of his post, in relation to what he says. Now say it outloud to yourself.
It's just simple respect, man. No one's asking you to honor him as the sabbath. The Golden Age guys did it first. They started the ball rolling. We grew up with the characters they gave us. What's the harm in appreciating that, and giving them a bit of 'thanks for the memories'?
Most of these guys did it to make a buck, and didn't give a rat's arse about the characters they were creating.
Should anyone care about Bob Weiner of Pittsburgh, dead at 90, if he created "The Super Masked Guy with a Cape" back in the 1940s to cash in on the popularity of Superman?
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Quote:
Dave said:
Most of these guys did it to make a buck, and didn't give a rat's arse about the characters they were creating.
At what point did my post lead you to believe that this fact may have been in question?
Quote:
Should anyone care about Bob Weiner of Pittsburgh, dead at 90, if he created "The Super Masked Guy with a Cape" back in the 1940s to cash in on the popularity of Superman?
Was his character popular? Did it live on over the decades, adored by millions of kids, through multiple generations? Is it still around today, raking in the cash?
These are only a few things that can be respected about someone's creativity.
The question r3x29yz4a proposed wasn't "Why do I have to care?", or, "Why am I required to care?". He asked "Why should I care?". To which, I answered, given my opinion on the subject.
Given all of this, now, what was the point of singling out my reply, among the rest? Is it because I was the only one to have anything to really say on the subject?
I ask you this: Why shouldn't you care?
Here are some possible reasons I can come up with:
1.) You claim to not like superheroes, and claim not to read them. Yet, you are never at a loss for something to say on any given subject when it comes to that particular genre. Still, it's possible, if just for the sake of keeping that particular public image of yourself consistent, that you do not care simply because that is how you promote yourself. Understood.
2.) You have a sincere distaste for anything concerning the superhero genre, and have no love for anything connected to it, in any fashion. Also understood.
3.) Cynicism leads you to degrade the accomplishments of one man's good idea, by lumping it into the whole of culture, or comparing it to another idea that was derived from something decently original. Taken that stance, it's true that you really shouldn't care.
4.) Perhaps you believe by allocating a percentage of concern or thought to a subject that, by simple comparison, is wholly minute to the accomplishments of other intelligent specimens of humanity in varied fields, that you are doing a disservice to those great accomplishments of our history. That to care about something so insignificant as the creation of a fictional character may take away from the achievement of curing Small Pox. An extreme stance, if so.
5.) You simply want to spark further debate and discussion on the subject, and are, thus, playing devil's advocate.
I am one of those people that believe that ideas should be celebrated. Even accidental ideas. Even those born under less than artistic or altruistic circumstances. And, I believe that it causes no harm in appreciating and celebrating those who created that idea in the first place, even if it is the only great idea they had their entire life.
Just my opinion, you understand.... 
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Cool your jets, turbo. Time to inform you. Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
Dave said:
Most of these guys did it to make a buck, and didn't give a rat's arse about the characters they were creating.
At what point did my post lead you to believe that this fact may have been in question?
I posted this to query why we should care, when there was no passion to their creation. If they didn't care, why should we?
Quote:
Quote:
Should anyone care about Bob Weiner of Pittsburgh, dead at 90, if he created "The Super Masked Guy with a Cape" back in the 1940s to cash in on the popularity of Superman?
Was his character popular? Did it live on over the decades, adored by millions of kids, through multiple generations? Is it still around today, raking in the cash?
These are only a few things that can be respected about someone's creativity.
The question r3x29yz4a proposed wasn't "Why do I have to care?", or, "Why am I required to care?". He asked "Why should I care?". To which, I answered, given my opinion on the subject.
Given all of this, now, what was the point of singling out my reply, among the rest? Is it because I was the only one to have anything to really say on the subject?
I ask you this: Why shouldn't you care?
Here are some possible reasons I can come up with:
1.) You claim to not like superheroes, and claim not to read them. Yet, you are never at a loss for something to say on any given subject when it comes to that particular genre. Still, it's possible, if just for the sake of keeping that particular public image of yourself consistent, that you do not care simply because that is how you promote yourself. Understood.
Let me clarify this. I do not like the way superhero comics are written, on the whole. But if I think an example of the genre is well-written or pushes the bundaries of the genre in new and interesting ways, then I will happily read and enjoy it. For example, I have previously admitted (and received derogation for it) I am a fan of Mark Millar's work on Authroity, on Wanted and on The Ultimates. Capes and masks everywhere in those books.
Quote:
2.) You have a sincere distaste for anything concerning the superhero genre, and have no love for anything connected to it, in any fashion. Also understood.
A repeat of your point one. But let me go even further. I am doing a PhD thesis on the intellectual property rights in famous people's personalities and character properties. So I have a keen academic interest in superhero and other fictional properties, the way they evolve, they way they are licensed, the way they are fought over, and so on.
One thing I have noticed, and is plainly obvious to anyone who reads the genre, is how similar these character concepts are.
Much of this is intentional. Its an effort to pass off the reputation and goodwill of a previously existing character. So, for example, I have no respect creatively for the person who invented Captain Marvel - its a clear rip off of Superman. Similarly, the Submariner - he's like Superman, but he fights crime underwater! Why should we celebrate such a person when their driver was to make money in creating a Superman clone?
On the other hand, when someone like Neil Gaiman can take the genre and make it something new under the sun, or Frank Miller can take an existing character and twist it almost beyond recognition, then that's something creative to applaud.
Quote:
3.) Cynicism leads you to degrade the accomplishments of one man's good idea, by lumping it into the whole of culture, or comparing it to another idea that was derived from something decently original. Taken that stance, it's true that you really shouldn't care.
From a commercial perspective, an idea is worth the value of its commercial exploitation.
From an artistic perspective, an idea is worth the creative effort put into it.
My complaint is not that a character like Mr Terrific has or has not generated money for its owner, which is the usual measure of popularity in any artistic medium. My complaint is that we shouldn't revere the person who lacked creative passion in manufacturing Mr Terrific, as simply another character out to capitalise upon the popularity of the mystery man.
Quote:
4.) Perhaps you believe by allocating a percentage of concern or thought to a subject that, by simple comparison, is wholly minute to the accomplishments of other intelligent specimens of humanity in varied fields, that you are doing a disservice to those great accomplishments of our history. That to care about something so insignificant as the creation of a fictional character may take away from the achievement of curing Small Pox. An extreme stance, if so.
On this point, if only you put the passion you imbued in this post towards lobbying your government to improve education.....
But no, I do not draw a comparison to people who create superhero characters and people who create cures. Everyone has their strengths.
Quote:
5.) You simply want to spark further debate and discussion on the subject, and are, thus, playing devil's advocate.
Yes, but I also believe what I say.
Quote:
I am one of those people that believe that ideas should be celebrated. Even accidental ideas. Even those born under less than artistic or altruistic circumstances. And, I believe that it causes no harm in appreciating and celebrating those who created that idea in the first place, even if it is the only great idea they had their entire life.
Just my opinion, you understand....
If someone sees the popularity of a painting dabbed in horse shit, is inspired to take a vat of pig shit, smear in on a canvas, and sell it to the Metropolitan Museum of Art for a million dollars, then I applaud their commercial instincts. But I do not think it is art, because I think it lacks original creative process, and I will not honour the passing of the pig shit painter.
But I will pay respect to Shuster and Siegel, and to even to Stan Lee, Steve Dikto, Gardner Fox, and Jack Kirby for revitalising the genre in the 60s.
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Quote:
Dave said:
Cool your jets, turbo. Time to inform you.
Sorry. Did I come off anxious? 
Quote:
I posted this to query why we should care, when there was no passion to their creation. If they didn't care, why should we?
Because I don't believe concern is genuine if it is measured or based on someone else's level of concern.
Quote:
Let me clarify this. I do not like the way superhero comics are written, on the whole. But if I think an example of the genre is well-written or pushes the bundaries of the genre in new and interesting ways, then I will happily read and enjoy it. For example, I have previously admitted (and received derogation for it) I am a fan of Mark Millar's work on Authroity, on Wanted and on The Ultimates. Capes and masks everywhere in those books.
Actually, this does indeed clarify your opinion and stance on comic books, and the superhero genre in particular. Much appreciated, as it helps me understand many of your past (and future) rants...
Quote:
A repeat of your point one.
Actually, point one was giving the possibility that you are not honest in how you present yourself. Point two is given that you are.
Quote:
But let me go even further. I am doing a PhD thesis on the intellectual property rights in famous people's personalities and character properties. So I have a keen academic interest in superhero and other fictional properties, the way they evolve, they way they are licensed, the way they are fought over, and so on.
This sounds pretty interesting. Will you be publishing it online anywhere, such as your forum?
Quote:
One thing I have noticed, and is plainly obvious to anyone who reads the genre, is how similar these character concepts are.
Much of this is intentional. Its an effort to pass off the reputation and goodwill of a previously existing character. So, for example, I have no respect creatively for the person who invented Captain Marvel - its a clear rip off of Superman. Similarly, the Submariner - he's like Superman, but he fights crime underwater! Why should we celebrate such a person when their driver was to make money in creating a Superman clone?
On the other hand, when someone like Neil Gaiman can take the genre and make it something new under the sun, or Frank Miller can take an existing character and twist it almost beyond recognition, then that's something creative to applaud.
Well, perhaps this is where I should clarify my original intent/understanding of the first post I made in this thread. This thread came about, and was in obvious response, to the death of the creator of Jay Garrick (the original 40's Flash). So, in respect, while you are talking about the general medium, and all the fluff and retroactive redundancy that has come since, I was simply speaking about the creation of comic's first speedster. An original idea, I would say (and, no, I am not taking into consideration the mythological gods, or any other fictional realm outside of the comic book medium).
So, given the generalized argument about the comic medium, and the state of redundant copycats, I couldn't agree more. In the case of creating The Flash, it's not applicable.
Quote:
From a commercial perspective, an idea is worth the value of its commercial exploitation.
From an artistic perspective, an idea is worth the creative effort put into it.
My complaint is not that a character like Mr Terrific has or has not generated money for its owner, which is the usual measure of popularity in any artistic medium. My complaint is that we shouldn't revere the person who lacked creative passion in manufacturing Mr Terrific, as simply another character out to capitalise upon the popularity of the mystery man.
Absolutely agree.
Quote:
On this point, if only you put the passion you imbued in this post towards lobbying your government to improve education.....
Quote:
But I will pay respect to Shuster and Siegel, and to even to Stan Lee, Steve Dikto, Gardner Fox, and Jack Kirby for revitalising the genre in the 60s.
And Harry Lambert. The artist who co-created The Flash.
I see that this debate was really just born of misunderstanding the subject. And, as I really agree with everything you say concerning the general state of the spandex medium, it horrifies me to realize that you and I are more of the same mind than I previously believed....
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Quote:
Well, perhaps this is where I should clarify my original intent/understanding of the first post I made in this thread. This thread came about, and was in obvious response, to the death of the creator of Jay Garrick (the original 40's Flash). So, in respect, while you are talking about the general medium, and all the fluff and retroactive redundancy that has come since, I was simply speaking about the creation of comic's first speedster. An original idea, I would say (and, no, I am not taking into consideration the mythological gods, or any other fictional realm outside of the comic book medium).
So, given the generalized argument about the comic medium, and the state of redundant copycats, I couldn't agree more. In the case of creating The Flash, it's not applicable.
Hmm. Maybe. I'm not convinced The Flash (or Green Lantern, and certainly not Wonder Woman) are that different from Superman. It was a guy in a costume with a power, just like all the rest. "He's like Superman, but he runs fast." Certainly Greek mythology played a decisive role in the character's creation - the helmet and (IIRC) the winged feet.
I actually need to start my thesis, rather than just talk about it, but I see no reason why I couldn't post excerpts of the draft from time to time.
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Quote:
Dave said:
Hmm. Maybe. I'm not convinced The Flash (or Green Lantern, and certainly not Wonder Woman) are that different from Superman. It was a guy in a costume with a power, just like all the rest. "He's like Superman, but he runs fast." Certainly Greek mythology played a decisive role in the character's creation - the helmet and (IIRC) the winged feet.
Well, certainly, if you quantify everything down to "Guy/Girl in a costume", then, of course you will find the entire genre redundant unto itself. But, then again, that would mean you are accusing the spandex medium of being into spandex. Recursion, thy name is recursion.
And, of course, if you try and compare the superhero medium to other realms of fiction or literature, then, you certainly find relatable comparisons. Samson=Doc Savage=Superman. The Scarlet Pimpernel=Zorro=Batman. Alladin=King Arthur=Green Lantern. Mercury=Flash. Of course it is that obvious.
But, everything comes from something before it. Anything deemed truly original in fiction can be generally tracked to an earlier version/notion of that idea. That, in itself, is obvious, as well. However, if you follow the train of that particular logic, then you'll just end up arguing yourself all the way back to Beowulf. And, really, that's a moot point.
Quote:
I actually need to start my thesis, rather than just talk about it, but I see no reason why I couldn't post excerpts of the draft from time to time.
Do it here. You could make it a regular series of articles...
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Tracing these concepts back to the Iliad is a bit pointless. In any event, the phenomonon of superheroes goes back to the fashion when it exploded in the late 1930s.
Most of the powered heroes appeared to be created with the interntion of feeding off the reputation in Superman:
"He's like Superman, except he's got a magic ring!"
"She's like Superman, but she's female!"
Non-powered heroes probably owe their existence to efforts to emulate Batman or Doc Savage.
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If by "Like Superman...", you mean "wears a costume, has a secret I.D., a love interest, and fights crime with superhuman abilities", then, yes I agree. Otherwise, I find Jay Garrick/Flash the character, the modus-operandi, and the abilities, as different from Superman, as I find Wonder Woman, Alan Scott, or even Johnny Thunder and the Thunderbolt.
Were they attempting to capitalize on the market that Superman created? Absolutely. A strategy that seems linked with any modicum of commercial success (i.e. how many anti-heroes cames about after Wolverine and The Punisher? Exactly.).
Therefore, I would say that Superman was the catalyst for The Flash......the base design. But, the differences overall...even back then....make them quite incomparable. Thus, his originality.
I would agree, likewise, with Batman being the catalyst for the grounded, non-powered vigilante-crime-fighters. Although Crimson Avenger may chronologically pre-date Batman as the first with a mask, it was Batman's success and popularity that allowed for the creation of those that followed.
Still, if Crimson Avenger had not a sold an issue, I doubt Batman would have ever gotten in the door.
I wonder how Doctor Occult would be classified? No mask. No double-identity. Yet, armed with a "mystic" weapon, and fights crime. Would he be the catalyst for Green Lantern?
The Superman derivatives (those so obviously emulating the Kryptonian), whether in ability, look, or origin, would have to be characters like: Supergirl, Superboy (He's Superman as a teen? Nice excuse.), Captain Marvel, J'onn J'onnz the Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, and Power Girl immediately come to mind. I'm sure there are more. These are the ones that I do not celebrate as original ideas.
Now, are you going to post chapters from your thesis here, or what?
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