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 BACK TO THE FUTURE: MARK WAID TALKS "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES"
by Arune Singh, Staff Writer
Posted: December 3, 2004
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"The Legion of Super-Heroes" #1 |
This December, everyone's favorite "Legion" of teens from the future are going to be seeing big changes and that doesn't just mean adding the "of Super-Heroes" back to their name.
Under the guidance of writer Mark Waid ("Empire," "Fantastic Four," "Superman: Birthright") and artist Barry Kitson ("Empire," "JLA: Year One"), DC Comics is bringing back "Legion of Super-Heroes" in a big way. With the new vision of the Legion ready to hit fans in a few weeks, Waid took some time to speak to CBR News about the series and address this big question: is this a reboot or reinterpretation of past events?
"Well, as readers of the 'Titans/Legion Special' now know, it has no ties to previous continuity," explains Waid. "At DC's request, we're taking the same approach with the Legion that Julie Schwartz took with the Golden Age heroes to revive them for the Silver Age, which is to say to boil the concepts down to their essence and recraft them as if they were being invented fresh today. We know that's going to make us some enemies among hardcore Legion fans, but it wasn't a decision made cavalierly or without great respect for what has come before. It's just that the Legionnaires are such great characters that we want them to have every fighting chance in today's marketplace to spark the same kind of interest and loyalty that it did when we were kids."
Though Waid & Co are putting a new spin on the classic team, the writer says he's aware that the Legion is a unique entity in the world of super-Heroes and explains what he feels has made the team so special in his mind. "First, that they're young idealists in a utopian, rather than a cliché-dystopian, future. That immediately makes the book about futurism and optimism. Beyond that, our basic take is that, a thousand years from now, a team of teenagers--all from vastly different worlds and all with different super-powers--have banded together to form an intergalactic 'Knights of the Round Table.' As the Legion of Super-Heroes, they earn a reputation as fearless explorers and adventurers, fighting for justice and tolerance while learning from--and learning to tolerate--each other. What makes this different from other comic super-teams is that the Legionnaires are agents of chaos in a utopian society--rebels who fight against the status quo rather than with it. It's sentient nature to settle into complacency. The early 31st century is a very conservative time, where inertia is the stagnating antithesis of the pioneering spirit and navel-gazing has replaced outreach. The Legion is a bunch of teenagers in a monochromatic, monodull society who are, if you will, the 'Society for Creative Anachronism' of the 31st century--kids who celebrate the bright costumes, capes, goofy names and sense of personal heroism that were embodied by the 'ancient super-heroes' of the 21st century."
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"The Legion of Super-Heroes" #2 |
As a special treat to fans, and in some ways a throw back to storytelling of old, "Legion of Super-Heroes" will feature 30 page stories- as opposed to the standard 22 page length- and while there's debate from fans on whether or not to use those pages for 8 page character spotlights, Waid says he'll be appeasing fans on both sides of the debate. "We have the flexibility to do whatever's best to serve the story--or stories, as the case may be. Right now, plans call for book-lengthers for the immediate future, but that doesn't mean we can't take some space here and again to do 'spotlight' stories on individual Legionnaires."
In the long history of the Legion, there've been many different takes on the Legion, but two in particular seem to resonate the most with fans. First, there's the "Levitz Era," in which writer Paul Levitz took the Legion to the top of the sales chart and mixed classic superheroics with soap opera. Then there's the "5YL" era, in which Keith Giffen, along with Tom and Mary Bierbaum infused the Legion with much darker tones (to which Abnett and Lanning's "Legion" run has been compared at times) that drew as much acclaim as it did scorn. Both takes have become revered for their own reasons and with Waid set to reinvent the Legion again (as he played a major role in rebooting the team in 1993), one has to ask- what's the "perfect" Legion balance?
"I don't know if we've found the 'perfect' balance, but on the whole, I'd say that Barry and I always by trying to remember that the more real these individual teenagers seem, the wider the range that gives us," he explains. "In other words, they're not simplistic and one-dimensional enough to be an 'Archie Legion,' [a derogatory term used by some to describe Waid's reboot efforts in 1993] but neither are any of them (well, okay, maybe Ultra Boy) intense and brooding enough to where they're unpleasantly dark. It's a tough tightrope to walk, I admit--the struggle with the first issue in particular came in making the team accomplished and likeable while at the same time not perfect and perfectly meshing."
Every time a superhero is rebooted, there's always worry from fans that their favorite characters will be neglected, omitted or, even worse in the eyes of some, changed beyond recognition. Ever the affable diplomat, Waid says "No one's been ruled out, so far as I remember" and says that fans shouldn't worry too much about their favorites being "destroyed."
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"The Legion of Super-Heroes" #1, Page 13 |
Both Kitson and Waid have made statements that they plan to "Re-imagine" many favorites, with fan speculation ranging from different origins to different powers for their favorite characters. Though changing the planet of origin for Live Wire, for example, may seem trivial, Waid knows that it matters to Legion fans and explains, "Our default impulse is 'do no harm' in terms of what longtime fans already expect from the characters, but our secondary creative impulse is always to ask, 'If we were creating this character from scratch, would we be writing him/her this way, or should we be exploring other ideas?' Triplicate Girl is the best example of this so far--but you'll have to read issue three to see what our take on her is."
As with any Legion fan, Waid has his definite favorites and says they'll be in the spotlight, but promises it won't be at the expense of others. "Cos and Brainy are two of my favorites, both in the past and now. Originally, our intent was to leave Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl out of the book altogether for a while, hinting occasionally that they were off doing something else that would be revealed near the end of year one--but Cos is just too magnetic a character (ar, ar) to not inveigle himself into the stories.
"As far as the others go, we're sort of 'moving the camera around'--spending our first few issues spotlighting and building individual Legionnaires and small groups. Issue two, for instance, features several Legionnaires, but concentrates primarily on Brainy and Dream Girl. Issue four focuses on Invisible Kid and how he relates to some of the other kids on the team. None of them are 'solo stories,' but neither are any of 'em 18-character punch-ups. At least, not yet."
Waid has made a point of saying that one of his goals with the all-new, all-different "Legion of Super-Heroes" was to bring the characters back to their teen roots, though many fans of Levtiz's work and more recent work feel that the teen era of the Legion has been done to death. Others hope that the Legion do age, as they did in their classic adventures, and that the teen age isn't permanent for the new team. "I suppose if we live long enough, sure," says Waid of whether or not we'll see his Legion as adults. "The primary reason for taking them back to their teen roots is because we're not stupid enough to break something that isn't broken. That's the original concept, and clearly they got it right when they created the team."
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"The Legion of Super-Heroes" #1, Page 14 |
Something else that came with the team, at least a few years after their creation, was the expansion of the team to include enough members to truly call the teens a "legion." On the surface, the sheer amount of characters would seem to impede creating serious threats or conflicts for a team with dozens of superpowers between the members. Waid contends that the best source of conflict is, "Each other. I don't mean in a hand-to-hand combat way, I mean in an 'okay, here's a dilemma that's going to split the team down the middle' way. The Legion's never more boring than when they're attacking a problem as an 18-member groupmind, and we're working very hard to maintain the awareness among readers that these guys are radically different from one another in culture, in belief, in upbringing. Barry and I can both say that we're not as interested at first in having a Sun-Eater show up as we are watching the Legionnaires deal with smaller, more personal threats. That said, we're headed towards interstellar war on a cosmic scale, and soon, so it's not like we're not willing to turn up the heat."
Don't expect to see another version of the Fatal Five or Computo in this Legion's rogues gallery as Waid isn't spending time trying to re-interpret any of the classic times. "Seriously, no plans. New. New, new, new."
Over the years, the Legion has dealt with themes of tolerance and diversity to the corruption of power and growing into adulthood. This series will tackle those themes and, as Waid explained, "At its core, how difficult--and how rewarding--it is to connect with others like you and with the world around you. A lot of these kids have some commonality, but others--despite their humanoid appearances, we're trying to always bear in mind that having, say, Brainiac 5, Element Lad and Chameleon together is like trying to build an effective fighting force out of a magnolia tree, a sugar cube and a Cumulus cloud. They're not just from different towns, they're from different planets."
For this project Waid is reunited with artist Barry Kitson and while it's no secret that he and Waid collaborate well together, evident on such acclaimed work as "Empire" or "JLA: Year One," the writer says that some people don't realize how much Kitson's presence not only improves the art, but the stories as well. "Because we work so well together. Because he's a terrific, imaginative artist and a good
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"The Legion of Super-Heroes" #1, Page 15 |
storyteller who can keep me honest by asking all the right questions about the plots. Because he's suicidal enough to be willing to draw 30 pages a month. All these reasons and more."
There are some long-term plans for "Legion of Super-Heroes" and Waid is happy to offer up some teasers for the future of the series. "We're building a tapestry with the characters. Each of the first few issues can stand on its own, but as we get further into the series, we'll start to see individual threads all growing in surprising ways and leading towards a year-end epic."
Oh, and the moment that made Waid a hardcore Legion fan? "I became a fan of the Legion in 1967, my friend, with the Death of Ferro Lad, and, no, I never dreamed I'd be someday putting words in Phantom Girl's mouth."
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Although, when I heard about this a short while ago I was REEEEEALLY skeptical, after having read this article, this is beginning to sound interesting to me. Although I've personally seen the Legion of Super-Heroes rebooted and/or changed several times since 1985, this current one sounds like a serious update.
No "reinterpretations" of classic Legion stories will be appearing -- no rehashing of stories that have already been told. Waid and Kitson look like they're planning on taking the essential characters from the Legion and writing NEW stories with them, in a way similar to Julius Schwartz's treatment of DC's golden age heroes when he revamped them in the 1950s and 1960s. The characters themselves look like they'll be closer to the original versions than, say, Barry Allen is to Jay Garrick, but I'm hopeful that this exercise in originality will be more than just that. I'm hopeful that we'll see some creativity that doesn't constantly rely on past Legion continuity.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Anyone skeptical about it?
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As a long time reader who first got into comics BECAUSE of the Legion of Super-Heroes, it's a little dissapointing to me. DC keeps going farther and farther away from what made LSH their number 2 comic in the 1980's after New Teen Titans. I'm very surprised DC Prez Paul Levitz allows this to happen when basically HE was the one who oversaw the Legion in their glory years. I'll probably still get this because I know that Mark and Barry are quality creative talent, but I miss the Legion that I grew up with. 
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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I've always liked the Legion but never really got into it because of all the backstory. This seems like a nice opportunity to do it. Waid can be really good when he's passionate about something, and though my first reaction to Kitson's name was that his style didn't fit the book at all, those pages previewed in Newsarama seem pretty nice and better than anything I've seen from him (not to mention intriguing as far as the story goes).
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Seems to me that everytime DC gets into a creative corner with Legion, their answer is "reboot" it. This is what, the third time in a decade?
I'm very skeptical on this at the moment. Despite Waid's and Kitson's intentions, I see the book quickly becoming just another nostalgia book for DC. They're heavy on the silver age stuff right now. (And ironically, Waid was one of the forebears of this movement, with his reneging on updating villains in Underworld Unleashed due to his nostalgia, and the Silver Age event, among other things.)
Overall, Legion frequently has many of the same problems that the 4th World characters/books have. Too many characters, poor costumes, too insular with no real connections to the DCU proper, etc. Seems to me it will have a lot of momentum early on due to curiosity, and maybe people will dig it and stay with it. But the old school fans will complain long and loud, and eventually whether under Waid and Kitson or someone else, things will start regressing again.
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Although there have been several reboots,this is the second time that its been rebooted from scratch,ignoring everything thats gone before.
I must admit this is another one of the reasons I stopped reading comics.
The fad for rebooting got ridiculous.
I liked it when they first started doing reboots on the likes of Bats & Supes but now it just seems they reboot characters willy-nilly with little reguard for die hard fans.
Granted,its obviously flagging sales that has forced this reboot,but maybe after a while they should just give up & cancel the book completely.
I know cancellation will upset people as well but surely thats better than having their favourite characters dragged through the meat grinder one more time!
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Quote:
Grimm said:
Seems to me that everytime DC gets into a creative corner with Legion, their answer is "reboot" it. This is what, the third time in a decade?
Second.
The first reboot was with Zero Hour in '94. The second time would be this time.
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jim as a gay guy are you afraid theyll reboot the gayness out of legion?
Last edited by britneyspearsatemyshorts; 2004-12-06 5:03 PM.
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rob, and rex also feel free to answer.....
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whoa!
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
Seems to me that everytime DC gets into a creative corner with Legion, their answer is "reboot" it. This is what, the third time in a decade?
Second.
The first reboot was with Zero Hour in '94. The second time would be this time.
Depends on your definition of reboot.
First one I'd say was when Giffen did the story about the LSH getting back together again years after they broke up due to some big disaster.
Then you had the LSH/Legionnaire reboot in 94 after Zero Hour.
Some might class the pick up after Legion Lost as a reboot as well.
Then of course you have the current one.
Only two of them have started the Legion from scratch but the others could still be classed as reboots!
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a reboot is when you start from scratch like man of steel a revamp is where you just change some details to clear things up.....
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The problem with the Legion is that ever since 1985, DC has been trying to forget that the Legion are Superman family characters.
All the chaos since has been from DC desperately trying to ignore this fact.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
jim as a gay guy are you afraid theyll reboot the gayness out of legion?
There isn't any gayness in the Legion. There's nothing on camera that says any of the characters are anything other than str8. They rebooted out the gayness back in '94.
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I think having little or no connection with the proper DCU is a very good thing. It gives the writer a lot more freedom: for example, he can make the characters age in real time if he wants to, cause they don't co-exist with Superman or The Bat-Man so there's no danger of ruining those franchises.
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In fact, I think the 4th World should be separated from the DCU for them to really get a chance to shine. Have Darkseid kill them all (Franta will love that) and start from scratch somewhere else.
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I'm all for having no connections with the 21st century DCU. Why would there be any connection whatsoever? It's ancient history, man -- a thousand years ago. What connection do I have with Erik the Red?
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
I'm all for having no connections with the 21st century DCU. Why would there be any connection whatsoever? It's ancient history, man -- a thousand years ago. What connection do I have with Erik the Red?
Okay, then kill off that green guy with the blond hair in the front of the pic and at least half the alien races they usually hang out with. No connections means no connections. If you're going to completely separate it out, then completely separate it out.
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
In fact, I think the 4th World should be separated from the DCU for them to really get a chance to shine. Have Darkseid kill them all (Franta will love that) and start from scratch somewhere else.
I'd let the Wildstorm guys have a crack at 'em, myself.
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Quote:
Grimm said:
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
I'm all for having no connections with the 21st century DCU. Why would there be any connection whatsoever? It's ancient history, man -- a thousand years ago. What connection do I have with Erik the Red?
Okay, then kill off that green guy with the blond hair in the front of the pic and at least half the alien races they usually hang out with. No connections means no connections. If you're going to completely separate it out, then completely separate it out.
You didn't answer my question... 
I do have a connection with Erik the Red -- he was Scandinavian, and my parents are Swedish. We come from the same people-group.
Likewise with "Brainiac Five" (or whatever he's being called) -- he comes from the same species as one that existed a thousand years previously. Yet should that mean the Legion then has any more of a connection than I do with Erik the Red? No.
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Stop backtracking and trying to circle around the subject. No connections is no connections. Kill Brainiac. Wipe away Metropolis and build over it. No currently extant alien races. No long lived villains from the past, ala Darkseid and Ra's Al Ghul. No means NO!  Quote:
Thus sayeth the Trust: I'm all for having no connections with the 21st century DCU. Why would there be any connection whatsoever?
In all seriousness though, you can nitpick all you want, and there are several people here more well versed in Legion minutia than I am. But that doesn't change the fact that for casual readers, a general complaint is that it is too far removed from the DCU proper. And the 4th World stuff generates many of the same complaints.
I see this stuff all the time. "I can't into the New Gods, they just don't seem to fit with everything else. I can't get into Legion, it doesn't fit with everything else." Now, granted, we're talking about comics fans, who bitch about everything, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth investigating the possibility that they may have a point.
You want to sit here and post about well, it's better on it's own or go into semantics about timelines, that's well and good, but it's not really addressing the general points that the potential readership is putting forth.
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Actually, at least for me, having little or no connections with the DCU is a plus when I wanna get into a book. And this from a guy who has 13 years (1986-1999) of Superman and basic DCU continuity in his brain.
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Yeah, but you're hardly an average reader.
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Let's leave my penis lenght out of this.
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Well, if you insist.
You know, I've confused myself and am no longer sure what I am arguing for or against.
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Obviously I'm a big fan. This updating doesn't bother me since the team I was really hooked on was pre-zero hour. It was pretty nice reading a comic with characters that aged. Towards the end, you essentially had the adult Legion. Hopefully this reboot will do well & click with both new & old fans.
It's funny the article didn't mention the Cockrumn/Grell runs as being an era. Those artists really made the Legion big in the 70's. If DC had only had a Chris Claremont to synch the deal. Perhaps a Waid/Kitson team will make the third time a charm.
Fair play!
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I have to say this looks like a good read, and might even be fun. I hate that I'm going to do this because I already pick up more titles than I plan every time I go to the comic shop, but I really have to get this.
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CANCEL THIS BOOK? Nowhereman, you are a heretic! The five years later Legion was one of the better storylines in Modern comics. Give this new version a try! You might come away enjoying it!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Those artists really made the Legion big in the 70's.
I have long maintained that the Legion's newfound success starting in 1973 really spurred Marvel to reform and revamp the X-Men in 1974.
Quote:
If DC had only had a Chris Claremont to synch the deal.
They did at one time. Paul Levitz.
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Let's leave my penis lenght out of this.
You use it as a book mark.
I've never been keen on Legion, because the idea of superheroes from the future seemed to me to be a little redundant. Part of the awe of superheros is contrasting them with everyday life - something which the 30th century doesn't reflect. Also, the lack of imagination, and the very ,itsch aspects of Legion(the old rocket HQ, for example), never had any appeal.
Havng said that, I am fond of some of the characters - Wildfire, Dawnstar, Mon-El, Ultra Boy, Timber Wolf, Satrun Girl, and others. Not fond enough to try the book, though.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
If DC had only had a Chris Claremont to synch the deal.
They did at one time. Paul Levitz.
Yeah, I liked both his runs but he wasn't on it so long on the first one. After the Earth War story there was a fairly stagnant period IMHO. Revolving writers & artists stalled things till Levitz came back. Happy belated B-day BTW!
Fair play!
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Goddess of the Universe 200+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 259 |
The post-Crisis and Zero Hour reboots were huge downers. This actually looks like something I could see myself buying, and it doesn't hurt that Kitson can draw teenagers.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Happy belated B-day BTW!
Thank you.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
ShazamGrrl1 said:
The post-Crisis and Zero Hour reboots were huge downers.
The CRISIS stuff I didn't mind.
Zero Hour, however, was devastating. I've never been a Legion fan since. Yeah, picked up some stuff now and then, but with no passion, no real interest. Mostly morbid curiosity.
I just wistfully remember when LEGION was DC's best book...so long ago.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230 Likes: 1
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230 Likes: 1 |
Back in, what, 85? 86? Legion and Titans were decimated by the switch to direct sales and Baxter paper.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 47,810 Likes: 2
Hip To Be Square 15000+ posts
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Hip To Be Square 15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 47,810 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
I'm all for having no connections with the 21st century DCU. Why would there be any connection whatsoever? It's ancient history, man -- a thousand years ago. What connection do I have with Erik the Red?
Okay, then kill off that green guy with the blond hair in the front of the pic and at least half the alien races they usually hang out with. No connections means no connections. If you're going to completely separate it out, then completely separate it out.
You didn't answer my question...
I do have a connection with Erik the Red -- he was Scandinavian, and my parents are Swedish. We come from the same people-group.
Likewise with "Brainiac Five" (or whatever he's being called) -- he comes from the same species as one that existed a thousand years previously. Yet should that mean the Legion then has any more of a connection than I do with Erik the Red? No.
Maybe theres a connection cause L.E.G.I.O.N being part of the DCU in the modern age means you really cant get away from it.
Half the members have direct descendants & the name L.E.G.I.O.N/Legion alone will always forge this connection in readers minds.
Mon-El/Valor has also existed in both the 20th & 30th century meaning that no matter what the reboot is,he will have always been part of the 20th century unless the 20th century has another Crisis/Zero hour style reboot!
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
Dave said:
Back in, what, 85? 86?
No, I was thinking more like 82-84.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230 Likes: 1
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230 Likes: 1 |
That long ago...? Jeez. I'm showing my age. The switch to Baxter was probably the singlemost worst thing DC has ever done. Titans and Legion were selling massive numbers by today's standards, and the rocket scientists at DC decided to take them off the shelves of newsstands and make them more expensive because they thought they'd have a loyal following regardless. In the meantime, Marvel's most popular title at the time, X-men, has spawned a myriad spin off titles, movies and computer games. Just plain stupid, even without the benefit of hindsight. Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
I'm all for having no connections with the 21st century DCU. Why would there be any connection whatsoever? It's ancient history, man -- a thousand years ago. What connection do I have with Erik the Red?
Okay, then kill off that green guy with the blond hair in the front of the pic and at least half the alien races they usually hang out with. No connections means no connections. If you're going to completely separate it out, then completely separate it out.
You didn't answer my question...
I do have a connection with Erik the Red -- he was Scandinavian, and my parents are Swedish. We come from the same people-group.
Likewise with "Brainiac Five" (or whatever he's being called) -- he comes from the same species as one that existed a thousand years previously. Yet should that mean the Legion then has any more of a connection than I do with Erik the Red? No.
Maybe theres a connection cause L.E.G.I.O.N being part of the DCU in the modern age means you really cant get away from it.
Half the members have direct descendants & the name L.E.G.I.O.N/Legion alone will always forge this connection in readers minds.
Mon-El/Valor has also existed in both the 20th & 30th century meaning that no matter what the reboot is,he will have always been part of the 20th century unless the 20th century has another Crisis/Zero hour style reboot!
Since when did Nowhereman become a continuity bitch?
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,919
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,919 |
Actually, L.E.G.I.O.N.'s connection with the Legion was established pre-Zero Hour, so it was already fucked up by the Zero Hour reboot (for example: the "trade" between Phantom Girl/Phase and Unnamed Durlan/Legion funding guy happened pre-Zero Hour). Also, nobody gives a fuck.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
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