It's a ridiculous concept thought up by a wayward church. It has no biblical substansiation. The common concept of hell has more to do with poetry than anything God has said.
Oh man, there is so much I can say for this but I don't really want to get into another religious debate so soon. Basically, I agree with Klinton completely.
Quote: klinton said: It's a ridiculous concept thought up by a wayward church. It has no biblical substansiation. The common concept of hell has more to do with poetry than anything God has said.
Biblically, Hell comes after Armagedon. But who is to state that some eternal souls don't find themselves trapped their for all of existence after death?
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet."
Actual place...the Bible is clear about this but if you take the whole Christian aspect aside...it's nice to know there's a place that exists after death where bad people are punished continually for eternity.
Wait wait.......that didn't make sense :P ok.....theortically if we say hell doesn't exist when would right ever conquor wrong? How right is it for everyone including ax murderors, child molestors, wife beaters to all go to a happy place called heaven? Shouldn't those unsorry for their actions be justifiably to some horrible place?
or maybe, you know, they just die? If you believe Genesis 2:7, man is a living soul and since men can die...
Ezekiel 18:4
4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.
Seems to me God is saying anyone sinning, their soul will die.
]PrincessElisa said: Wait wait.......that didn't make sense :P ok.....theortically if we say hell doesn't exist when would right ever conquor wrong? How right is it for everyone including ax murderors, child molestors, wife beaters to all go to a happy place called heaven? Shouldn't those unsorry for their actions be justifiably to some horrible place?
Thier punnishment is to be shut out of the kingdom of heaven. There is no eternal torture pit waiting for them.
That was Jesus (to the centurion). But he was not speaking of a literal place...Merely that there would be those who would not make it into the kingdom. He was in no way conveying the hell that the church speaks of.
Quote: Stupid Doog said: Seems to me God is saying anyone sinning, their soul will die.
Spiritual death isn't the same as biological death. A person can still walk among the living with a dead soul until his body dies (granted that he hasn't repaired his sinned out soul) and his consciousness is cast into hell.
In revelations the dragon and demons were cast into hell. And this dragon was named Satan.
They were cast into a lake of fire...a symbol for thier destruction. This event was followed by the moon turning to blood and a third of the earth being consumed in the same lake.
Revelations is a book of dreams with higher meaning...not literal accounts.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2 Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
Quote: Pariah said: And hell was apart of that symbol. Get over it.
Yes...but it does not imply that hell is literal. Heaven is mentioned many times as a literal place throughout the scriptures. Hell never is. Hell is a doctrine of the church, not a teaching from the bible. Get over it.
Quote: klinton said: Yes...but it does not imply that hell is literal. Heaven is mentioned many times as a literal place throughout the scriptures. Hell never is. Hell is a doctrine of the church, not a teaching from the bible. Get over it.
Why exactly would God show an apostle such useless information if it didn't effect us somehow? Quite simply, it was pretty clear in showing that you better not follow the Dragon's example or you'll share the same fate.
Quote: klinton said: Yes...but it does not imply that hell is literal. Heaven is mentioned many times as a literal place throughout the scriptures. Hell never is. Hell is a doctrine of the church, not a teaching from the bible. Get over it.
Why exactly would God show an apostle such useless information if it didn't effect us somehow? Quite simply, it was pretty clear in showing that you better not follow the Dragon's example or you'll share the same fate.
Yes...several verses later I think it goes on to say that those judged unfit were also thrown into the lake. Only this time the (added phrase, which did not appear in the earliest manuscripts) 'tormented forever and ever' bit was replaced with the correct writing 'the second' or final 'death'...no passage into heaven.
The lake was an analogy for destruction...not a place of torment.
There are many other places in the Bible that describe destruction. Why wouldn't it say as much unless the lake of fire wasn't merely a place to abolish one's very existence?
And where exactly do you take this 'tampered manuscript' info from?
Quote: Pariah said: There are many other places in the Bible that describe destruction. Why wouldn't it say as much unless the lake of fire wasn't merely a place to abolish one's very existence?
And where exactly do you take this 'tampered manuscript' info from?
Destruction is described in many ways in the bible, but complete destruction (those without hope of salvation, such as Soddom and Gomorah) is almost always referred to as being by fire.
And as to the 'tampered manuscript info' it's not that hard to determine. The original Greek was correctly translated for the second reference to those cast into the fire (by most recognized translations)...the translation reading (roughly) 'the second death'. As to the names of the manuscripts that were referred to in my theo class, I'll dig that information out for you if you really want it.
Quote: klinton said: Destruction is described in many ways in the bible, but complete destruction (those without hope of salvation, such as Soddom and Gomorah) is almost always referred to as being by fire.
You're forgetting the flood. Those people had no hope of reprieve either.
Quote: And as to the 'tampered manuscript info' it's not that hard to determine.
I'll dig that information out for you if you really want it.
Please do. The comparsion between the Greek Lexicon and the Arameic texts doesn't imply a mirror image. There were many contextual differences between the two languages.
Mk Klinton's this is what my Bible word search found just fyi:
Matthew 23: [33] "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
Mark 9: [43] And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. [45] And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. [47] And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, [48] where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 12: 5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him."
Luke 16: 23, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
2 Peter 2:4 ,"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
Revelation 1:18, " I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
Revelation 20: "3] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Quote: PrincessElisa said: Mk Klinton's this is what my Bible word search found just fyi:
Matthew 23: [33] "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"....yadda, yadda....This is the second death."
Princess, I'm far to gone to argue this fully...But try switching to a different translation (other than the King James', which is a literal (not contextual) translation. You will find that the references translated as 'hell' are something else entirely. This is not saying that the damned aren't punished...their just not tormented.
and to add to point the KJV isn't even a translation, but a revision of older bibles. There are many great versions around that don't use Kings English and were translated using Greek and Hebrew texts.
