RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events BUSH BLOCKS NEW ABU GHRAIB PHOTOS: CHILD RAPE

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r3x29yz4a said:

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magicjay said:
Why do some opponents of the Iraq war lump Q'uran flushing in the same boat as torture? Does the Geneva convention trump 1st amendment free speech rights?

Q'uran flushing is the equal of flag burning. Both are forms of symbolic political speech. I don't know how a soldier's rights are defined under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but in the same way I support a persons right to burn the flag, I also support a person's right to desecrate the Q'uran or Bible. Yes, they are highly disturb the audience, but the last I heard that's not illegal.

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But they weren't flushing the book as a sign of protest they were doing it as a form of torture.
The same as locking up a catholic and shitting on the Bible.

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I can think of a Catholic I'd love to do that to!

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wannabuyamonkey said:
If you could get the information to prevent a future terrorist attack either on the level of the London bombings or 9-11 by flushing a terrorists copy of the Quran down the toilet, would you?

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wannabuyamonkey said:
If you could get the information to prevent a future terrorist attack either on the level of the London bombings or 9-11 by flushing a terrorists copy of the Quran down the toilet, would you?

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magicjay said:
I can think of a Catholic I'd love to do that to!

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the G-man said:
and other allegations at Gitmo, not over the Abu Garib incident.

This is not the first time you've mixed the two camps up.

You do realize that Gitmo is in Cuba and Abu Garib is in Iraq, don't you? And you do realize that Cuba and Iraq are two completely different countries, on two completely different continents (in fact, one is an island)? And that they are separated by an entire ocean and several other land masses, don't you?

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Hey G-itmo Man There's a direct link between Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib! How timely this news is! Wow! Despite them being on 2 different continents and being seperated by an ocean!!!

Here's some news from today's papers G-. This is on page A14, it should have been on A1. From the Washington Post.

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Military interrogators at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq learned about the use of military working dogs to intimidate detainees from a team of interrogators dispatched from the U.S. detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to court testimony yesterday.

One interrogation analyst also testified that sleep deprivation and forced nudity -- which were used in Cuba on high-value detainees -- later were approved tactics at Abu Ghraib. Another soldier said that interrogators would regularly pass instructions to have dog handlers and military police "scare up" detainees as part of interrogation plans, part of an approved approach that relied on exploiting the fear of dogs.
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The preliminary hearing at Fort Meade, Md., for two Army dog handlers accused of mistreating detainees provided more evidence that severe tactics approved for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo migrated to Iraq and spiraled into the notorious abuse at Abu Ghraib in the late summer and early fall of 2003. The testimony came days after an internal military investigation showed the similarity between techniques used on the suspected "20th hijacker" in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and tactics seen in photographs at the prison that shocked the world.

Several Republican senators are pushing legislation -- opposed by the White House -- that would regulate the treatment of detainees at Guantanamo and other military prisons. One of them, Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), released recently declassified internal memos written in 2003 by the military's top lawyers in which they warned the Pentagon about developing severe tactics, arguing that they would heighten danger for U.S. troops caught by the enemy, among other problems.

"We have taken the legal and moral 'high-road' in the conduct of our military operations regardless of how others may operate," Air Force Maj. Gen. Jack L. Rives wrote in a Feb. 5, 2003, memo. "We need to consider the overall impact of approving extreme interrogation techniques as giving official approval and legal sanction to the application of interrogation techniques that U.S. forces have consistently been trained are unlawful."
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That staff sergeant, James Vincent Lucas, told Army investigators that he traveled from Cuba to Iraq from October to December 2003 as part of a six-person team to bring his "lessons learned" and to "provide guidelines" to interrogators at Abu Ghraib who were setting up their operation, according to investigative documents obtained by The Washington Post.

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You're still helping to stand in the way of investigating if little boys and women are still being raped

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theory9 said:
I rarely agree with G-Man, but I am curious as to how people believe the investigation should be handled if the current powers-that-be are doing something wrong...

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July 27, 2005

GOP Pressure Over Detainee Policy Leads to Defense Bill Delay

By James Gerstenzang


WASHINGTON — Faced with pressure from fellow Republicans to impose restrictions on the Pentagon's treatment of detainees, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee said Tuesday that he would delay until September consideration of the $491-billion defense bill authorizing funding for military operations next year.

Frist's decision reflects the challenge confronting the Bush administration as it tries to fend off efforts by several important Republican senators to give Congress a role in how the military conducts interrogations of terrorism suspects.

With at least four Republicans — John Thune of South Dakota, Susan Collins of Maine, John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina — leading the effort to extend debate and consider the amendments, Frist lacked the 60 votes needed to force a vote on the bill. In the end, 50 senators voted to cut off debate; 48 voted to continue it.

Frist had previously shown no urgency to bring the defense authorization bill to a vote. The Senate Armed Services Committee approved it two months ago.

The question of whether to impose restrictions on the military's interrogation procedures highlighted differences between the administration and some Republican senators.

Vice President Dick Cheney had been working behind the scenes to kill the amendments, setting up the confrontation with McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam; Graham, who served as an Air Force lawyer for 20 years; and John W. Warner of Virginia, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who supported them.

Taken together, the interrogation and base-closing amendments suggest a growing independence among Senate Republicans as President Bush struggles with declining support for the war in Iraq as well as an investigation into the involvement of top White House aides in disclosing the identity of a CIA agent.

Supporters of the measure that would establish rules for interrogations see it as a final opportunity to restrict Pentagon operations — at the Guantanamo Bay detainee center in Cuba, and at such facilities as the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq — that have drawn sharp criticism and embarrassed the administration.

About a dozen reports have been issued in the 15 months since the abuses at the prison near Baghdad were first revealed, but none has called for dramatic, systemic change, prompting McCain and the others to step in.

One of McCain's proposals would make interrogation techniques outlined in the Army Field Manual the standard for handling all detainees in Defense Department custody. Another would prohibit cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of U.S.-held prisoners, whether detained in the U.S. or elsewhere.

Graham's amendment would give congressional approval to the administration's legal policies on detainees, under which some are held indefinitely, by defining in law the term "enemy combatant" and codifying current Defense Department policies.

The two sets of amendments — dealing with prisoners and fighting base-closing proposals — touched off a threat of a presidential veto.

With Congress planning to begin a summer recess this weekend, there will be no opportunity to return to the defense measure until after Labor Day — a delay that will give the administration additional weeks to pressure its Republican allies to back off their proposals.

John Isaacs, president of the arms control group Council for a Livable World, said Frist had miscalculated Republican support and had thought that Democrats would find it difficult to vote against a defense bill.

After failing to win support to bring the defense bill to a vote, Frist told reporters: "I'm very disappointed in the last vote."

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the G-man said:

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You're still helping to stand in the way of investigating if little boys and women are still being raped

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Speaking of (your) talking points (which seems to be your "theme of the week" on every thread), no matter how many times you claim these matters are not being investigated, the very article the started this thread, the very article YOU posted, gives every indication that the matter is being investigated and prosecuted.

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unrestrained id said:
Now tell me how Joe Wilson was also wrong about those WMD's.

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unrestrained id said:


So contrary to G-Man's assertions, NOTHING substative, apart from sending low level flunkies down the river as their activities are discovered by the media, is being done.

Systemic change, regulations in accordance to law, and oversight that would prevent future abuse is being fought tooth and nail by the Bush Administration.

Hmmmm..... Wonder why that is, if this all has been dealt with already.

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theory9 said:


I would assume that the soldiers should've already felt/been compelled to follow the law (Geneva Con. and so on

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So, as with any other criminal case, there is no reason to release the pictures... other than sensationalism and/or anti-soldier propaganda.

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Randal_Flagg said:

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So, as with any other criminal case, there is no reason to release the pictures... other than sensationalism and/or anti-soldier propaganda.

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This might be random, but I am curious... has anyone ever met a person who is genuinely anti-soldier?

Furthermore, what is more anti-soldier, fully investigating these incidents to see how far up the chain of command responsibility falls or prosecuting the soldiers directly involved?

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New York judge rules some arguments in Abu Ghraib prison photo case must be divulged

By LARRY NEUMEISTER
Associated Press Writer

August 15, 2005, 6:16 PM EDT

NEW YORK -- A judge said he generally ruled in favor of public disclosure when he ordered the government on Monday to reveal some redacted parts of its argument for blocking the release of pictures and videotapes of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein made the statement in open court after meeting in a closed session with lawyers for the government and the American Civil Liberties Union, which is seeking release of the pictures and tapes.

He said his rulings pertained to arguments by Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and Ronald Schlicher, deputy assistant secretary and coordinator for Iraq in the Department of State's Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs.

"By and large, I ruled in favor of public disclosure," he said.

He gave U.S. Attorney David Kelley, who argued the case, time to appeal the rulings.

Myers and Schlicher had submitted declarations describing why they thought releasing the photographs would threaten national security. Myers wrote that releasing the photographs would aid al-Qaida recruitment, weaken the Afghan and Iraqi governments and incite riots against U.S. troops.

The judge has said he believes photographs "are the best evidence the public can have of what occurred" at the prison.

The ACLU has sought the release of 87 photographs and four videotapes taken at the prison as part of an October 2003 lawsuit demanding information on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture. The ACLU contends that prisoner abuse is systemic.

The judge said the case presented a clash between those seeking to protect national security and those seeking to keep the public informed so that there can be accountability for public officials.

He called Myers the most important military official in the country and said, "I need to pay careful attention to what he says."

The judge scheduled arguments on the question of whether the photographs and videos should be released for Aug. 30, saying a speedy decision is important so the public's right to know isn't compromised.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
im not sure why anyone would want pictures of children or women being raped released to the public. the public has a right to know what was found in investigation but not pics children forced into sex. if it was your child would you want their pictures floating around the internet?

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shouldn't it be enough to acknowledge that these disgusting things did happen, and the people responsible are being punished? What the hell is wrong with people that they want to see the evidence?

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
im not sure why anyone would want pictures of children or women being raped released to the public. the public has a right to know what was found in investigation but not pics children forced into sex. if it was your child would you want their pictures floating around the internet?

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I wait to hear the reasoning for showing the childrens pictures. If he gives a reason he's either not a parent, not a good parent, or just a pervert.

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I'm a parent and a good parent. I may be a perv by your standards, but that's another topic.

You're mixes the personal with the political. I doubt the DOD is concerned about the impact of the images on the privacy of the victims. They are concerned about the political impact.

Images are powerful tools. A single image can drastically affect support for a war. This one, on the cover of Life, devasted support for the Vietnam War effort.




That's why the DOD goes to such great lengths to control news. I believe Kim Phuk is prou that her image hastened the end of the American War in her country. She currently resides in Canada.

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That's why the DOD goes to such great lengths to control news. I believe Kim Phuk is prou that her image hastened the end of the American War in her country. She currently resides in Canada.

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wannabuyamonkey said:

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That's why the DOD goes to such great lengths to control news. I believe Kim Phuk is prou that her image hastened the end of the American War in her country. She currently resides in Canada.

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I wonder if she's also proud of the wholeslae slaughter that her country-men suffered as a result of the pull out. IF she cared so much about her country, why doesn't she live there now? Phuk her, I say.

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MisterJLA said:
You actually brought up Kim Phuk, magicjay.

Why wouldn't the DOD want the Abu Ghraib photos released? I imagine they wouldn't want the "enemy combatants" to go on another beheading or rioting spree.

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MisterJLA said:
You actually brought up Kim Phuk, magicjay.

Why wouldn't the DOD want the Abu Ghraib photos released? I imagine they wouldn't want the "enemy combatants" to go on another beheading or rioting spree.

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no abuse like that by that many people

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the G-man said:

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no abuse like that by that many people

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Please provide a specific number of people, as well as a citation to back it that number. From everything I've heard and read, the "many" people was a handful of soldiers.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
magicjay is obviously a sexual deviant from his posts so its not suprising he would support release of these types of photos.

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no abuse like that by that many people

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the G-man said:
Please provide a specific number of people, as well as a citation to back it that number. From everything I've heard and read, the "many" people was a handful of soldiers.

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r3x29yz4a said:
even a "handful" of soldiers (none of them high ranking or in charge of much) could get away with that without someone knowing. And if they were doing something they thought they might get in trouble for then why did they take all those incriminating pictures?

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the G-man said:

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no abuse like that by that many people

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the G-man said:
Please provide a specific number of people, as well as a citation to back it that number. From everything I've heard and read, the "many" people was a handful of soldiers.

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r3x29yz4a said:
even a "handful" of soldiers (none of them high ranking or in charge of much) could get away with that without someone knowing. And if they were doing something they thought they might get in trouble for then why did they take all those incriminating pictures?

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Can we all agree that atrocities occurred, photos were taken and by the chain of command, Army or Marine Officers are responsible?

I notice you're backing away from your claim of "many," and now arguing even a "handfull" would have been noticed.

There are criminals who take pictures of themselves in the act all the time. They know they are committing a crime, but don't think they'll get caught. Or the Pictures found. Check out the typical "America's Dumbest Criminals" website or book for examples.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon in any large organization for a few people with minimal supervision to do things they aren't supposed to do without their supervisors being in on it. Look at crooked cops. Or crooked prison guards. Quite often it takes years before they get caught and prosecuted.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
magicjay is obviously a sexual deviant from his posts so its not suprising he would support release of these types of photos.

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