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Is it just a matter of whose side your on? Or is there a clear differance between the 2? In the 1980's the US provided support for the Contras who opposed the popular Nicaraguan government. The Contras conducted raids against villages, raped and pillaged and fought government soldiers. Ronald Reagan christened them Freedom Fighters and provided them with arms. How does this differ from what we accuse the Iranians and Syrians of doing?
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Good question.
As a "freedom fighter", you don't just fight for a good cause, but you follow some rules, such as don't deliberately kill civilians, don't execute P.O.W., don't rape, and similar things.
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
Good question.
As a "freedom fighter", you don't just fight for a good cause, but you follow some rules, such as don't deliberately kill civilians, don't execute P.O.W., don't rape, and similar things.
that's not always true.
the only difference is in who is describing them.
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I think the key word would be "restraint"; a freedom fighter would never resort to methods that would turn the average person against their cause. They embrace peace and see violence as a loss of sorts, an assertion that would separate Gandhi and MLK from Ho Chi Minh and Carlos the Jackal.
Terrorism partially embodies the notions that politics is a sealed phenomenon breachable only through violence, and that change can never be achieved through negotiation.
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Freedom fighter is what retards call terrorists.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
Good question.
As a "freedom fighter", you don't just fight for a good cause, but you follow some rules, such as don't deliberately kill civilians, don't execute P.O.W., don't rape, and similar things.
that's not always true.
the only difference is in who is describing them.
Agreed.
Remember that Osama Bin Laden was described as a 'freedom fighter' at one time when he was part of the Afghani moujahadeen, on account of him killing and blowing up Soviets. Never mind that "freedom" in the way we define it, was the furthest thing on his mind.
To me, the phrase(s) is merely a tool to try to frame the imagery. "Freedom fighter" to me invokes imagery of the revolutionary war and democracy which I beleive is the intended reaction.
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go watch the movie Red Dawn, and then think about Iraqi insurgents.
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btw did the kids in RED DAWN suicide bomb children and elderly women, because I don't remeber that?
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
btw did the kids in RED DAWN suicide bomb children and elderly women, because I don't remeber that?
Director's Cut.
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Quote:
rex said:
Freedom fighter is what retards call terrorists.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
rex said:
Freedom fighter is what retards call terrorists.
Well then, we're all agreed that Ronald Reagan was a retard!
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
btw did the kids in RED DAWN suicide bomb children and elderly women, because I don't remeber that?
Director's Cut.
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
Good question.
As a "freedom fighter", you don't just fight for a good cause, but you follow some rules, such as don't deliberately kill civilians, don't execute P.O.W., don't rape, and similar things.
that's not always true.
the only difference is in who is describing them.
Agreed.
Remember that Osama Bin Laden was described as a 'freedom fighter' at one time when he was part of the Afghani moujahadeen, on account of him killing and blowing up Soviets. Never mind that "freedom" in the way we define it, was the furthest thing on his mind.
To me, the phrase(s) is merely a tool to try to frame the imagery. "Freedom fighter" to me invokes imagery of the revolutionary war and democracy which I beleive is the intended reaction.
Absolutely! It's like the difference between a king and a tyrant, the only difference is who benefits from their actions. To Americans, Osama is a terrorist and a murderer. To many Arabs, he is a freedom fighter because he is willing to take on the tyranny of the United States. Hero/villain, vigilante/criminal and freedom fighter/terrorist are all judgement calls that we make as individuals and cultures.
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G.I. Joe=Freedom Fighter
Cobra=Terrorist
It's easy.
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How would people describe the Northern alliance who fought on our side in Afganistan and how do people think they actually differ from the Taliban?
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Quote:
rex said:
Freedom fighter is what retards call terrorists.
So...are you saying that Americans who describe such heroes of the Revolutionary War as George Washington and his comrades in arms as freedom fighters are retards? And that Washington and the minutemen were terrorists?
I certainly don't consider the Minutemen to be terrorists, and I'm rather offended by you accusing them of being so.
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In theory I'd like to think that a Freedom Fighter is someone who targets primarily oppressive governments and a terrorist is someone who intentionally targets noncombant civilians.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
In theory I'd like to think that a Freedom Fighter is someone who targets primarily oppressive governments and a terrorist is someone who intentionally targets noncombant civilians.
both have the same goals, just different beliefs in how to carry them out. The modern islamic terrorists started by just targeting the corrupt governments, but then felt the people's lack of support made them just as guilty.
so, essentially it's all a matter of what they consider "innocent."
Also, keep in mind, they all see it as war. When we bombed Germany and Iraq we bombed innocents as well as the military. It didn't matter in war time to us.
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Ooo! Another thought! If you're successful enough to form an army, you're a freedom fighter. If you're stuck using yourself as a human bomb, you're a terrorist.
Almost seems like a redneck joke should follow that.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
In theory I'd like to think that a Freedom Fighter is someone who targets primarily oppressive governments and a terrorist is someone who intentionally targets noncombant civilians.
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
both have the same goals, just different beliefs in how to carry them out. The modern islamic terrorists started by just targeting the corrupt governments, but then felt the people's lack of support made them just as guilty.
so, essentially it's all a matter of what they consider "innocent."
Also, keep in mind, they all see it as war. When we bombed Germany and Iraq we bombed innocents as well as the military. It didn't matter in war time to us.
In Germany and Iraq, innocents were "collateral damage," not the primary target.
In regards to the idea that terrorists consider civilians "guilty" for supporting the government, while an appealing idea to the terrorist, is not an objective standard whatsoever. Every evildoer feels he or she is justified.
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I think if someone is fighting being oppressed they would be a freedom fighter, if they are fighting a democracy being formed in their goverment they would be terrorists.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I think if someone is fighting being oppressed they would be a freedom fighter, if they are fighting a democracy being formed in their goverment they would be terrorists.
Being occupied by a foreign military power. Can it get a lot more oppressive than that?
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Yes, when the "foreign occupier" would like nothing better than to see you idiots embrace democracy, so we can go home.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Yes, when the "foreign occupier" would like nothing better than to see you idiots embrace democracy, so we can go home.
Kipling would be so proud! Thanks, G man, for picking up the white man's burden!
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Not the same thing at all.
Colonial England never really wanted to let go of its colonies. All the "white man's burden" stuff was simply an excuse to keep the empire together in order to exploit it.
Bush and his supporters are not claiming, as did Kipling, that the Iraqis are not ready for democracy. Quite the contrary, Bush is the one pushing for free elections, constitutions, etc.
It's his detractors on the left who have adopted Kipling's quaint notion of natives who can't be trusted with democracy.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Being occupied by a foreign military power. Can it get a lot more oppressive than that?
Sure...the Iraqi's could have a dictator who slaughters, tortures, and starves their own people to death, while said dictator enjoys a life of luxury at the expense of the very people he oppresses.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
In theory I'd like to think that a Freedom Fighter is someone who targets primarily oppressive governments and a terrorist is someone who intentionally targets noncombant civilians.
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
both have the same goals, just different beliefs in how to carry them out. The modern islamic terrorists started by just targeting the corrupt governments, but then felt the people's lack of support made them just as guilty.
so, essentially it's all a matter of what they consider "innocent."
Also, keep in mind, they all see it as war. When we bombed Germany and Iraq we bombed innocents as well as the military. It didn't matter in war time to us.
In Germany and Iraq, innocents were "collateral damage," not the primary target.
In regards to the idea that terrorists consider civilians "guilty" for supporting the government, while an appealing idea to the terrorist, is not an objective standard whatsoever. Every evildoer feels he or she is justified.
which is my whole point. no one considers themselves evil. every soldier, freedom fighter, terrorist, hell's angel considers their own killing to be the only justified killing.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Not the same thing at all.
Colonial England never really wanted to let go of its colonies. All the "white man's burden" stuff was simply an excuse to keep the empire together in order to exploit it.
what about the Yellow Submarine? Was that an excuse to keep Pepperland in the Empire?
At least we had proof that the Blue Meanies had Bouncing Hands of Mass Destruction.
Quote:
Bush and his supporters are not claiming, as did Kipling, that the Iraqis are not ready for democracy. Quite the contrary, Bush is the one pushing for free elections, constitutions, etc.
which may be the only positive thing to come out of this war. but i feel his stance would be stronger if not for the WMD stories and the Haliburton scandals.
Quote:
It's his detractors on the left who have adopted Kipling's quaint notion of natives who can't be trusted with democracy.
that's not entirely true. I'm glad they're doing elections. but again, do the ends always justify the means?
would democracy have worked here if Washington and Jefferson had been foisted on us by the British?
The Iraqi government was set up by us, and sooner or later the Iraqi citizens will want a government that's beholden to them and not the U.S.
But I guess, you hated the White Album too.
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Being occupied by a foreign military power. Can it get a lot more oppressive than that?
Sure...the Iraqi's could have a dictator who slaughters, tortures, and starves their own people to death, while said dictator enjoys a life of luxury at the expense of the very people he oppresses.
Georgie on vacation.
People who are dying for him every day. If he was any real leader, he would give up the month long vacations as long as a single soldier is dying.
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By that logic, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and any other president who served during a war (and all of whom took vacations while in office) was a dictator who sent his people to die.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
By that logic, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and any other president who served during a war (and all of whom took vacations while in office) was a dictator who sent his people to die.
by the above definition, yes they were.
But, how many vacations did FDR/Truman take during WWII? I bet they spent a hell of a lot less time "on the ranch" then Bush has.
And Kennedy never had a war.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I think if someone is fighting being oppressed they would be a freedom fighter, if they are fighting a democracy being formed in their goverment they would be terrorists.
Being occupied by a foreign military power. Can it get a lot more oppressive than that?
The prescense of a foreign military power does not automatically equal oppression. I think the fact that you can't understand that may be your problem. Do you understand oppression is what was happening to the people of Iraq before the invasion? I will give you the majority of occupations in history have been oppressive ones. That may be why you cannot see that this one is not.Do you consider people being allowed to form their own political system oppression? I would like a straightforward answer to that but I doubt I'll get it. You'll prolly go sideways on this. Which will prove that you just have a a desire to bash. But in reality allowing people a voice and freedom cannot be considered oppression by any definition.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Being occupied by a foreign military power. Can it get a lot more oppressive than that?
The prescense of a foreign military power does not automatically equal oppression. I think the fact that you can't understand that may be your problem. Do you understand oppression is what was happening to the people of Iraq before the invasion? I will give you the majority of occupations in history have been oppressive ones. That may be why you cannot see that this one is not.Do you consider people being allowed to form their own political system oppression? I would like a straightforward answer to that but I doubt I'll get it. You'll prolly go sideways on this. Which will prove that you just have a a desire to bash. But in reality allowing people a voice and freedom cannot be considered oppression by any definition.
When you can tell me that having a foreign army conducting military operations inside a country is not de facto oppressive.
You have this annoying habit of turning discussions into personal attacks against the person making a statement. You talk about 'my desire to bash'. I described the reality of the situation, the occupation, and asked a question about it. A question that you did not answer in your lengthy rant on my character and motivations. My character or motivation have nothing to do with the truth of the matter. To answer it you'd need to find out what Iraqis think about the occupation.
You state the Iraqis are not oppressed by your standard. But your standard is not germaine (or janet) to the discussion. Do Iraqis as a population think the occupation is oppressive? That is the issue.
Your attempts at euphamism are shoddy at best. Just like you mother's screams were when I fucked her ass last night! The cunt liked it! 
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magicjay38 said:
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Not the same thing at all.
Colonial England never really wanted to let go of its colonies. All the "white man's burden" stuff was simply an excuse to keep the empire together in order to exploit it.
Bush and his supporters are not claiming, as did Kipling, that the Iraqis are not ready for democracy. Quite the contrary, Bush is the one pushing for free elections, constitutions, etc.
It's his detractors on the left who have adopted Kipling's quaint notion of natives who can't be trusted with democracy.
You used perjoritives to describe the Iraqis for their lack of gratitude. That would be an indicator that you are prejudiced against Iraqis. Your first statement makes clear that at the least you harbour ethnocentric feelings toward Iraqis. Your plea of innoncence puts your bigotry on display.
Paragraph 2, well, the last time there was a colonial England would be the Norman Conquest, circa 1260 AD. I think you mean Imperial England don't you?
Bush may want democracy, but do the Iraqis?
Quote:
It's his detractors on the left who have adopted Kipling's quaint notion of natives who can't be trusted with democracy.
I've heard no one on the left say this. Am I just supposed to take your word for it?
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Being occupied by a foreign military power. Can it get a lot more oppressive than that?
The prescense of a foreign military power does not automatically equal oppression. I think the fact that you can't understand that may be your problem. Do you understand oppression is what was happening to the people of Iraq before the invasion? I will give you the majority of occupations in history have been oppressive ones. That may be why you cannot see that this one is not.Do you consider people being allowed to form their own political system oppression? I would like a straightforward answer to that but I doubt I'll get it. You'll prolly go sideways on this. Which will prove that you just have a a desire to bash. But in reality allowing people a voice and freedom cannot be considered oppression by any definition.
When you can tell me that having a foreign army conducting military operations inside a country is not de facto oppressive.
You have this annoying habit of turning discussions into personal attacks against the person making a statement. You talk about 'my desire to bash'. I described the reality of the situation, the occupation, and asked a question about it. A question that you did not answer in your lengthy rant on my character and motivations. My character or motivation have nothing to do with the truth of the matter. To answer it you'd need to find out what Iraqis think about the occupation.
You state the Iraqis are not oppressed by your standard. But your standard is not germaine (or janet) to the discussion. Do Iraqis as a population think the occupation is oppressive? That is the issue.
Your attempts at euphamism are shoddy at best. Just like you mother's screams were when I fucked her ass last night! The cunt liked it!
For anyone here still keeping score. I got under his skin and snapped him....so as the old saying goes.....I WIN AGAIN! 
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
he was easier then the rest!
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