RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Sports and Wrestling Steroids, Giambi and Bonds oh and Sosa and McGwire too

espn.com

Wednesday, June 20, 2007
Report: Meeting between Giambi, Mitchell will probably happen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Facing a Thursday deadline, lawyers neared an agreement that would lead to a meeting between Jason Giambi and steroids investigator George Mitchell.


Attorneys for Major League Baseball and the players' union negotiated for a third straight day Wednesday to work out a deal that would lead to Giambi becoming the first active player known to speak with Mitchell's staff, several people familiar with the talks said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because no statements were authorized.


Several people said it was probable an agreement on rules for a Giambi-Mitchell meeting would be reached Thursday.


When he asked on June 6 for Giambi to meet with Mitchell, commissioner Bud Selig said he wanted the session to take place within two weeks. Giambi's representatives later were told the deadline would be this Thursday and it would be only for an agreement to meet, not for the meeting itself.


Selig threatened Giambi with discipline, saying cooperation with Mitchell would be factored into his decision. Any penalty imposed by Selig would have a good chance of being overturned by an arbitrator, who would have to determine whether there was "just cause."


Giambi was quoted last month by USA Today as seeming to admit to steroids use several years ago and met five days later with management lawyers to discuss those comments.


The New York Yankees' designated hitter is on the disabled list with a foot injury and it is unclear when he'll be able to play again.

U know, i think they really just need to drop all this shit...

So the thinking here is that Selig has been waiting for some kind of opening to make an example out of a player any player so that he can somehow connect it to Bonds so then he will be able to say, "Oh, MLB won't be honoring Bonds breaking Aarons record since he won't cooperate with our investigation."

Now it's clear to anyone with a pulse that Giambi Bonds Sosa and McGwire all have cheated by taking steroids so I'm all for this.

Now on to Sosa...

Sosa becomes fifth player to blast 600 home runs
espn.com

• Hero: Sosa hit 545 home runs for the Cubs. He has 12 homers and 52 RBIs this season for the Rangers.

• Goat: Jason Marquis became the 364th victim of a Sosa home run.

• Figure this: Sosa hit his first homer as a member of the Rangers, in 1989 off Roger Clemens at Fenway Park.

• Quotable: "Getting my 600th against the Chicago Cubs, and my first team [was] the Texas Rangers. It's like everything clicked. My emotions, I don't know what they are." -- Sosa

-- ESPN.com news services

Rangers 7, Cubs 3



ARLINGTON, Texas (AP) -- Sammy Sosa's 600th homer resembled so many that came before -- except this time the Chicago Cubs were on the other side.


Sammy Sosa does his familiar hop after homer No. 600. (AP Photo/Tony Gutierrez)

Playing for the Texas Rangers after a year out of baseball, Sosa became the fifth member of the 600-homer club Wednesday night when he connected against his former team.

After driving a 1-2 pitch to right-center for a solo shot in the fifth inning of Texas' 7-3 victory, Slammin' Sammy bounced out of the batter's box with his trademark hop and thrust his right fist into the air before reaching first base. He was mobbed at home plate by his teammates while the scoreboard showed pictures of all five members of the elite club: Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays and Sosa.

"It was something that cannot be explained," Sosa said. "Getting my 600th against the Chicago Cubs, and my first team [was] the Texas Rangers. It's like everything clicked. My emotions, I don't know what they are."

Sosa played for the Cubs from 1992-2004, winning the '98 NL MVP award and making seven All-Star teams while hitting 545 homers with Chicago.

No. 600 came off Jason Marquis (5-4), the 364th pitcher the 38-year-old Sosa has homered off in his 18 major league seasons.

"It was a cutter I left up in the zone," Marquis said. "I went away from my strength and he made me pay for it. Other than the fact that it cost us the game, it doesn't really matter."

It was Sosa's 12th homer in 62 games this season since signing a minor league deal and making the roster in spring training with Texas, the franchise that gave him his start. He hit his first big league homer with the Rangers in 1989.

Sosa also has 52 RBIs, which ranks seventh in the American League. He has homered against every major league team in his career.

After going into the dugout with his teammates, Sosa came out for a curtain call. He blew kisses to the crowd and acknowledged the Cubs' dugout by pounding his chest with his fist, and Chicago manager Lou Piniella pointed back toward the slugger. Sosa had never faced the Cubs before the series opener Tuesday night.


A countdown banner that has hung in right field for about a month was flipped from 599 to 600 -- and a new banner was unfurled in center field congratulating Sosa for joining the 600-homer club.

Chants of "Sam-my! Sam-my!" prompted a second curtain call from Sosa.

While Sosa has had an impressive comeback this season, his pursuit of 600 homers was overshadowed by the Rangers (27-44) having the worst record in baseball and Bonds' chase to catch Aaron atop the career home run list.

Bonds has 748 homers -- seven shy of Aaron's mark -- with only three in his last 97 at-bats. Ruth is third on the home run list with 714 and Mays is fourth with 660.

Sosa had a similar homer drought. No. 600 was only his second in 22 games -- a span of 83 at-bats in which his only other homer was a grand slam Friday at Cincinnati.

"It was a good moment. He should be proud of it," Piniella said. "I wish he would have done it in a losing effort but it's a tremendous feat and he should enjoy the moment."

When Sosa returned to the majors, he insisted he was coming back for more than the 12 homers he needed to reach 600.

"Definitely," Sosa reiterated after the game. "I'm showing the whole world I still have a few years left in the tank. I'm hungry every day. I'm here because I want to compete. Everything depends on how I feel a few more years. I feel great. Nothing can stop me right now."

A tumultuous 2005 season almost drove Sosa out of the game for good.

Career HR Leaders
Rank Player Home runs
1 Hank Aaron 755
2 Barry Bonds 748
3 Babe Ruth 714
4 Willie Mays 660
5 Sammy Sosa 600
6 Frank Robinson 586
7 Mark McGwire 583
8 Ken Griffey Jr. 582
9 Harmon Killebrew 573
10 Rafael Palmeiro 569


It started during spring training that year when he testified before Congress about possible steroid use in baseball, and it didn't get much better from there. He hit .221 with 14 homers and 45 RBIs in 102 games with Baltimore before going home to the Dominican Republic, where he stayed for more than a year.

"People that know baseball know that I was retired for one year and to put everything together and come back, that's big," Sosa said. "That's why tonight, it was a great night."

Like Mark McGwire and Bonds, Sosa is suspected of using steroids before they were banned by baseball, and he was caught with a corked bat in front of his home crowd when he played for the Cubs in 2003.

He has never been penalized for a positive steroids test, however, and was not involved in the BALCO scandal that has dogged Bonds.

Kameron Loe (3-6) allowed three runs over 6 2/3 innings for his second consecutive win after a six-game skid. Alfonso Soriano was 3-for-4 with two doubles and his 12th homer for the Cubs. Koyie Hill, the starting catcher after Michael Barrett was traded earlier Wednesday, hit a two-run homer in the seventh.

Sosa is the only player with three 60-homer seasons. He hit .308 with a career-high 66 homers and 158 RBIs in his 1998 MVP season for the Cubs -- and was part of that memorable home run chase with McGwire, the first major leaguer to hit 70 homers.

so today Sosa hitting 600 home runs was greeted with a yawn by most of baseball. the feeling is that no one will ever accept Bonds Sosa or McGwire as anything but cheaters and more than likely will never see the Hall of Fame.

Why give it up? These guys cheated. Think about it. If I was a Red Sox fan I'd be furious. In the 2003 Game 7 AlCS Giambi hit 2 HRs against Pedro that kept the Yanks in the game till they made their comeback.

What about the Maris or Ruth families? They did it legit and are getting screwed. These guys can have their HRs, but MLB should tell them that we know you cheated and we won't honor you.

I think MLB should give it up becuase i think that they all new what was going on. I dont think its right to use cheat, but if your boss and your bosses boss know what your doing and they let it go on because "Its bringing people back to the game" only to turn around once it goes public and say how wrong it is. Thats bullshit to me. Not to mention that im pretty sure just about damn near everyone durring that time frame was using something.

There appear to be some obvious examples of players that used performance enhancing drugs...but what about those that used but didn't hit a gazillion dingers? What about the pitchers that used to recover faster from workouts and maintain a high level of performance past their prime? What about the light hitting shortstop who used to stay in shape and continue his career? What about the marginal prospect who used to increase his chanes of making it to the league? What abbout the outfielder who used to gain a step on balls hit his way?

Is it cheating in a large percentage of players were doing it...? Or is it evening the playing field? What about the use of amphetamines...which goes back forever...? It was always an acceptable practice to help players get thru the grind of the season. Ruth was a notorious carouser in his day. Who's to say he didn't come to the clubhouse with a killer hangover on many occasions and popped uppers to help him get on the field? I'd say those enhanced his performance as he might not have been able to perform without them. Would you consider him to be a cheat? What about Mantle? The same theory applies.

You wanna put an asterick next to any records in that came in or were a part of the so-called steroid era? Fine. But the guys still had to hit the ball, throw the ball and catch it. The accomplishment should still be recognized and the hall of fame still awarded to those that deserve it by numbers. The hall is filled with guys that threw spitters or scuffed balls, corked their bats, stole signs...isn't that cheating as well? And many of those players were KNOWN for cheating. Do you revoke their inclusion in the hall because if the current crackdown on cheating?

I hear what you guys are saying and it is a very valid counter point.....but I just don't see how you ignore this. Pete Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame and his crimes had nothing to do with his abilities as a player.

Rose broke basically the only unbreakable rule in baseball. He bet on games...even worse, games he had some control over as manager. This is a more serious offense than drug use. That said...I think Pete should be in the hall of fame. But, the reason he isn't is much more valid than keeping the others out for steroid use.

I think breaking a rule is breaking a rule....you are trying to determine which rules are convenient for you in this case.....and as for the guys that cheated in the past like Ty Cobb and the spit ball hurlers.....most have plaques there that say what kind of guys they really were.....in the modern era the Hall has been pretty strict on who they let in.

I was just listening to Colin Cowherd on ESPN radio and they are talking about steroids....he is asking listeners to come up with new nicknames for steroids and some of them are fucking hilarious.


-Fat chick (cause it makes your junk run and hide)
-Sunmaid (cause it turns your grapes into raisins)
-Giambi Juice
-Vitamin T
-Stacked
-Ripped Van Winkle
-Homerun Helper
-Bail Bonds


If I had time to call in I would have called it Barrys.

I wonder what jafabian thinks about all this?

I think if you took steroids you cheated and that is that. Don't let those bastards in the Hall!

You tell em, me!

Monday, June 25, 2007
Sammy and Barry have earned their All-Star roster spots

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Gene Wojciechowski
ESPN.com

I think Barry Bonds' and Sammy Sosa's home run numbers, circa 1998-2004, are as fake as silicone breast implants. I think they cheated, just like I think Mark McGwire did. I think the only way they should get into the Baseball Hall of Fame is if they pay the $14.50 admission fee.


Bonds is fourth in the balloting for National League outfielders.
And yet -- and I'm going to need years of therapy to deal with this one -- I think Bonds and Sosa should be named to the 2007 All-Star Game rosters.

MLB commissioner Bud Selig is going to suffer dry heaves at the thought, but Bonds and Sosa belong on the AT&T Park first- and third-base foul lines when the National League and American League lineups are introduced the evening of July 10. They belong in San Francisco because of precedent, because of MLB's own All-Star selection rules, and because this might be the last time Selig and Bonds are in the same ballpark together.

If it were up to Selig, he'd have Paulie Walnuts make Bonds' career home run chase, uh, disappear. There'd be a tragic pitching machine "accident" in the stadium batting cage. Nothing fatal, just something requiring Dr. James Andrews and the permanent use of a walking cane.

Selig adores Henry Aaron, as well as Aaron's baseball and personal legacy. But the only thing separating Bonds from passing Aaron's record 755 home runs is seven more dingers. And steroid allegations. This is why Selig has yet to announce whether he'll be in attendance when Bonds eventually breaks the most cherished record in American sports.

Sosa, who just reached the 600-homer mark, isn't a threat to surpass Aaron. But he is an annoyance, a reminder of that seminal congressional steroids hearing in 2005 when Rafael Palmeiro and McGwire committed career and Hall of Fame suicide, and Sosa conveniently forgot how to speak English.

Palmeiro pointed at the House committee members that March day and said he had never used steroids. About five months later he was suspended for -- wait for it -- testing positive for steroids.


Sosa's return to the big leagues has paid off with 59 RBIs.
Meanwhile, McGwire didn't want to testify about "the past," which is what you say when you don't want to lie under oath. And Sosa, who needed a lawyer that day to read his statement, must have done some serious Berlitz work since then. He hasn't had any difficulty lobbying reporters, in perfectly understandable English, for his inclusion into the Hall of Fame.

But the All-Star Game doesn't have anything to do with home run records, legacies and induction speeches at Cooperstown. It's an exhibition game whose rosters are primarily determined by baseball fans. It's so screwed up that Selig once called the game with the score tied in the 11th inning. That led to the equally screwy decision to give World Series home-field advantage (no small thing) to the league that wins the All-Star Game.

Even if you think Bonds and Sosa are slimier than the Delaware River mud they use to rub up baseballs, they deserve All-Star jerseys. The latest fan ballot totals had Bonds trailing the Chicago Cubs' Alfonso Soriano for the third and final starting outfield spot. Sosa was in 13th place in the AL outfielder voting.

If the margins holds up, Bonds and Sosa would need help from their peers (the players choose the backups), or managers Tony La Russa (NL) and Jim Leyland (AL), or from online voters (who pick the final roster spot). For what it's worth, La Russa was noncommittal when asked recently about picking Bonds.

MLB rules say that each team has to have at least one All-Star representative. The Giants, who will finish dead last in the NL West, need somebody, so that somebody ought to be Mr. Martyr instead of the other two San Francisco candidates: catcher Bengie Molina and pitcher Matt Morris.

Molina's batting average and RBI totals have tumbled during the month, and Morris has given up 12 runs and 22 hits in his last two starts. That leaves Bonds, who can't throw, can't run that well and is nowhere to be found among the league leaders in batting average, RBIs, hits, total bases and extra-base hits. But he does have those 15 home runs (OK, so only four in his last 105 at-bats), a .293 batting average and more walks and intentional walks than anybody in the majors (you'd walk him, too, if you saw who was hitting behind him). Plus, the Giants' own Web site implores fans to "Vote Bonds."

Bonds' '07 numbers aren't All-Star worthy, but they don't have to be. That's because the game has a history of sticking stiffs out there long past their prime. Example: Cal Ripken.

Ripken made his final All-Star appearances in 2001, even though he was hitting just .240 and had only four homers and 28 RBIs at the time. The fans voted him in. Ripken homered in his first at-bat and got the MVP award as a parting gift. It was dramatic stuff, but the simple truth is that Ripken wasn't an All-Star-caliber player that year.

Bonds isn't either, but if you made an exception for Ripken, you've got to do the same for Flaxseed Man. The same goes for Sosa, whose 13 homers and 59 RBIs are actually respectable numbers on a Texas Rangers team without a no-brainer All-Star candidate.

"What, you take [Ripken] because he 'saved baseball?'" said Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, who managed the AL All-Stars a year ago. "Bonds should play."

Guillen meant no disrespect toward Ripken. He said Ripken belonged in the '01 All-Star Game, no questions asked. But if Ripken, and that .240 average, was in the starting lineup, Bonds' .293 average should at least be in the NL dugout. Perceptions and steroid allegations shouldn't matter, he said. Bonds is an active player who deserves the same courtesy that Ripken got six years ago.

He'll get no argument here. This isn't a steroid/performance enhancers issue. It's about what's fair. The beloved Ripken got an All-Star freebie in '01. The arrogant, smug Bonds should get one in '07.

Right is right, even when it hurts to say so.

Gene Wojciechowski is the senior national columnist for ESPN.com. You can contact him at gene.wojciechowski@espn3.com.

if its fans vote, its fans vote.

talent and "should be" players were taken out of the equation years ago

Yeah, I get your point. But you've made mine for me.

At the time of the suspected steroid use, steroids weren't specifically against the rules of baseball. They weren't prohibited against nor tested for. Technically, none of the big name suspects did anything against the rules as written at the time.

Now, if you want to say that steroid use is against the spirit of the game, fair play and all that, I can dig it. But, again, so is sign stealing, spitters and bat corking. And all of those things are specifically prohibited by rule. My point re: Pete Rose was simple...there are players in the Hall that have broken lesser rules. Pete did the one thing that you absolutely cannot do...he bet on the game. Seems to me that if all rules were equal, then none of the admitted rule breakers would be in.

How can you ban guys from being in the hall if their numbers merit inclusion because of something that they did that WASN'T AGAINST THE RULES AT THE TIME THEY DID IT?

I really don't care one way or another...baseball isn't my favorite sport so I don't feel betrayed or anything...but my attitude is that The Steroid Era is what it is. You just can't accurately say who did what and when they did it. Either pick a year...let's say from 1990 to 2002...and prohibit any player who played during the time from consideration for the Hall or just let the numbers dictate inclusion, as it always has been.

Agreed.

But in this case, Bonds and Sosa both deserve to be named by the managers of their respective squads. If you're going to have a rule that says all teams must have a representative, I'd say that neither the Rangers or the Giants have a player that should go before Sosa or Bonds, respectivelly.

couldnt have said it any better myself...












(oh and pete rose should be in the hall of fame...)

Yeah...The Hall just ain't right without the Hit King. If he'd come clean 10 years ago, he' be in by now.

It's his arrogance more than anything that has kept him out.