RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Media JLA movie and other DC movies update

indeed!

I like the Giffen era, but that group wouldn't work as a movie. They need big characters only for that (seven of 'em). Nobody knows Vixen or Atom, kids.

it doesn't matter if people know them (which after the success of the animated series, a lot more people know these characters than you think). people didn't know V, Marv, or the cast of 300 either. yet those adaptations were all very successful.

Pillow talk with Singer, I'm guessing.

The thing is that people associate the JLA concept with big names: ask a random person to name JLA members, and they'll throw in Spider-Man and Hulk. So, to the general audience, a movie composed of anything other than recognizable characters would probably be a disappointment.

I don't know about "big seven," but there's definitely a "big six" and has been since the sixties.

From 1960 to about 1984 (24 years), the core JLA was almost always: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and Aquaman. They weren't in every issue but in any given issue the majority of them were there.

There was a brief period in which WW lost her powers and wasn't there, but during that time period everyone felt like she was because of the SuperFriends show, guest appearances by the GA WW, guest appearances by the depowered Diana Prince, etc.

From 1997 to the present (10 years) the majority of the stories featured these six. Maybe not always the same Flash, or the same Green Lantern, but heroes with the same basic powers and the same name.

So, for 34 of the 47 years there has been a Justice League, you've had a more or less consistent roster of these six plus various other heroes.

That says to me there is definitely a "big six," if not a big seven.

I very much doubt that. as long as the film is well made, most of the general public really won't care who's in it. they'll have questions and will ask those questions in regards as to why certain characters were used, but they won't obsess over it and complain ad nauseum online about how "Aquaman" or "Flash" wasn't used to their liking.

How much of the general public pre-X-Men movie could have named characters from that group? The only real exposure they had was the early 90's cartoon, just as the JLA has the recently defunct cartoon and, apparently, a new one on the way.

Wow....that seems like two years ago...


(P.S. Pot kills brain cells)

Well, even Chris Judge is starting to show his age. And, as he does, he's looking less and less like J'onn J'onnz.

Given that Manhunter wouldn't wear those little red chest straps, I think Fishburne could still be J'onn...

Cause...it's not. It's Justice League Detroit. Or, Justice League International. Or, Justice League Space Monkeys. It's not The JLA.



Oh jeez, here goes your normal "masturbatory semantics" about how great Hal Jordan is, and all that. The fact that Wally and Kyle aren't Barry and Hal has nothing to do with whether I consider them part of The Big Seven. It could be Bart and Guy behind the masks for all I care. If it's "The Flash" and "Green Lantern", then, that's that.



I don't know the facts on that one. I was always under the assumption that he had been part of the League in many of its incarnations. Of course, that could just be some Post-Crisis remodeling that I didn't recognize. Still, he's definitely part of The Big Seven for me.



Green Arrow, Black Canary, and Hawkman are cool enough. But, I'll always see them as second-string. The Atom? Boring. Aquaman? I don't need to make a joke here. It's understood.



No, YOU are!



Someone's got their nerd-panties in a wad...


P.S. Red Tornado is lame, lamer, lamest. J'onn rules. Manchester United rocks, and The Spice Girls are the UK's greatest claim to fame. Eat it, poof!

damn...

can I do the soundtrack? I have a dream people. A dream with various renditions of the killer instinct music...

Before I got into DC comics and started posting here I had no idea who The Martian Manhunter, Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Zatanna, Blue Beetle and various others were.


Before that the only DC characters I knew were the big ones - Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, green Lantern, Green Arrow, and The Flash.



I can see throwing in some lower tier characters but they must have the ones everyone knows to have a successful film.

That's an idealistic view of the world, and especially the internet.

If it was a Doom Patrol film, they wouldn't care who was in it. You could make a Doom Patrol film with Solomon Grundy, Swamp Thing, and Jimmy Carter. They won't care. They'll either see it or they won't, but they won't think much of the roster. Why? Because "Doom Patrol" says nothing to them. It might as well be a movie about an insurance agency; nobody's gonna get mad about it.

Now, the words "Justice League" DO say something to people. They say "big superheroes get together". Bear in mind that the great majority of the film's audience never watches cartoons because cartoons are automatically stupid. To most people, The O.C. is better than any cartoon by default, simply for not being a cartoon. Anyway, the JLA is a known concept, so by so much as making the film you can guarantee two things are gonna happen:

1) A lot of people are gonna watch it.
2) Some people are gonna get mad at you.

Whatever you do, SOMEONE's gonna get mad at you if you're handling a known concept. Why? Because if the concept is known, people have an idea about it. And if they have an idea about it, they don't like it when that idea is contradicted. The guy who thinks The Bat-Man is a metaphor for anorexia got angry at the first Bale movie because it didn't have a clear posture regarding eating disorders.

With a Doom Patrol movie, the risk of angering people is so low, you can do whatever you want. But if you're making a movie about a known concept, and you intend to make lots of money off it, then you HAVE to make sure you don't contradict people's idea of it. In this particular care, that idea happens to be "big superheroes get together". If you contradict any part of that general idea, a LOT of people are gonna get angry and whine about it.

By the way, I'm aware that none of this says anything about the objective quality of the film... but let's face it, that's not a very important subject these days.

not hardly. did you actually read what I said? I'm not talking about the internet fans. I'm talking about "Joe and Jane Lunchpail" who merely want an interesting way to kill a few hours on a Friday night before they hit the bars. I know how these people are and I know how they react to films like this because I work with them and I've seen their reactions to films like this and we've discussed them. As long as they're entertained by the movie, they largely won't give a shit who's in it.



you obviously haven't been paying attention to the studios and their ever increasing geekdom and reliance on reactions at events like San Diego (and apparently now Chicago Con).



they say different things to different people.



to many. but not all. to quite a few people they say "that's really stupid." but that's one section of people.



yep. but at the same time, these are the same people who will (and have) gladly watched films like From Hell, V for Vendetta, 300, Hellboy, Sin City, etc., etc., and mostly like those films. Again, I'm talking about people I know and have discussed these things with in real life. Non comic fans, non animation fans, who enjoyed the hell out of these films.



you can't please everyone.



covered all this already.



that's true for the most part. In all honesty, unless it just looks completely amazing I doubt I'll even bother with it. but I know that there are various ways and methods to do this film with or without the so-called "Big Seven" that would make a good and successful film. Will any of them be used? Probably not.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, gotcha.



Well, you know, I remember talking with "normal" friends about Spider-Man 1, and while most people liked it, the one complaint I heard the most was about the organic webshooter (of all things). "Isn't it supposed to be a machine or something?" they'd ask me, and I'd be like "Does it matter?". Stuff like that shouldn't bother people, but it does. The Spider-Man thing was just a detail so it didn't make much of a difference, but I think it's indicative of a way of thinking. The point is that, generally speaking, if people have a preconcieved notion of what they're going to see, they'll react badly if that notion isn't met. This goes for all massive genres of entertainment. That's why movies like From Dusk Till Dawn never had a chance of being hits. Plot twists are only allowed in the third act.



Forget the current market, it was just an example. I know a movie like that probably wouldn't get made these days (though maybe in five years the tide changes again and the studios decide to go back to disrespecting the source material).



And to another section of people it says "jew propaganda", but none of those would go see the film either way. I think the great majority of the people who WOULD see the film share the concept I described.



Yeah, that was my point. Most people who enjoyed those movies would still dismiss the comics as stupid simply for being comics. I brought up cartoons because I think the JL series wouldn't be an important factor. Just because Mr. Terrific showed up in the third season or whatever doesn't mean he's become part of pop culture.



Of course not, but you can considerably reduce the number of people you displease if you don't stray too much from their expectations. That's why film genres are so segregated and rarely allow new combinations. If you advertise a movie as a romantic comedy and it turns out to be a thriller, the public will track you down and rape you.



Good films? Of course. Successful? Unless Lindsay Lohan plays Gypsy, I doubt it.

the only people I have ever seen complain about the organic webshooters were comic fans. it never bothered me as I saw it was being more logical than Peter being able to create something like that, but not being able to create other ideas to make his (and his family's) life easier. but again, this is largely an intarweb debate.

now we will have to disagree about From Dusk Till Dawn being a hit, because I know quite a few people (hell, it's one of my personal favorite movies) that enjoy it quite a lot. but I also know quite a few people that didn't like the switchover and would've been perfectly happy with just another Tarantino crime film. but it still did good business.



it could. we'll never know until we get there. that's why it's foolish to spend so much time worrying about "trends". they should worry more about simply crafting a good film. but what the hell do I know?



"that jewish group?" "no, sir, that's the JDL?" points if you catch that one.

they might, they might not. assuming they do have that notion, and the so-called "Big Seven", are they going to expect John Stewart and Hawkgirl or Kyle/Hal and Aquaman? I see a lot of John Stewart showing on fanmade youtube trailers.



but it also doesn't exclude him becoming part of it, either. had he been more prominently placed in the show, he would've been in a better position to do so. A better example I would think would be John Stewart, who before the animated series was mostly thought of as "that jewish guy that replaced Craig Kilborne on the Daily Show." but now GL John Stewart has a much higher profile in the eye of the public. there's no reason to think that had Mr. Terrific been featured similarly that he couldn't also have that.



then why is Joel Schumacher still alive and allowed to make films? I'll just quote Bill Hicks here and say "If you're in marketing, please kill yourself."

[/quote]

please don't give them ideas. success can take many forms, young Mxy. most of which monolithic studios and record companies are still largely oblivious to and mystified by.

But see, this is where your argument falls down.
Not everyone who goes to see this is gonna be oblivious to the history, and some of them, wanting to revisit their youth, wont gove two fucks about Martian Manhunter because he wasnt a big character!

You say the likes of Hawkman, Atom and Green Arrow are all second tier, but you see J'onn as top tier?
The guy didnt even have his own book until the Morrison run (discounting two mini-series), at least Hawkman and Atom both had their own books at several times in their careers.
They also happen to have golden age heritage!

J'onn was a backup character in Detective Comics, and vanished in the early 60s.
Apart from the odd cameo appearance, he didnt resurace again until JL Detroit in the mid to late 80s.
By that time, characters like GA, Aquaman, Hawkman and Atom had all become far more well known that him.
In fact, even non-comic readers would have known them because of the Super Friends cartoon.

Also, you have to remember that of from the mid 80s, up to the Doomsday era of the mid 90s, the only character excluding J'onn, to have an almost consistant prescence in the League was Batman.
Superman only rejoined in the lead up to Doomsday.
Wonder Woman briefly joined JLE, then disapeared, only to show up in JLA a little while before it was cancelled.
Hal briefly lead the JLE, and Wally didnt join until the first issue of JLE.
Of course there was some GL prescence in this era with Guy, but even he ended up with no GL ring!

That was pretty much a decade without a "the big seven".

That was also the decade that J'onn suddenly became the heart and soul of the team, which to a long term reader, was forced, and made no sense!


Nobody here is saying it has to be a team made up of Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Firestorm, Zatanna & Elongated Man (those last two, like Red Tornado have much more of a history with the JLA than J'onn), but I think there is enough recognition with characters through comic books, old Super Friends cartoons & newer JLA cartoons, that a movie can survive without Superman & Batman!

As long as GL, Flash, Wonderwoman & maybe Aquaman are present, you can slip in Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Atom, Green Arrow, Black Canary & a few others, and enough people will recognise them!

I'm also willing to bet, that theres also a lot of people out there who would see a superhero film called JLA even though they have no idea who any of the members were, just like many people who saw X-Men had no idea who any of the members were before they saw it.
All they were going to see was an action film.
People might know Batman & Superman, but that doesnt mean they know they are in a superteam called JLA!


The big seven is a fanboy dream!

MARTIAN MANHUNTER CHRONOLOGY

Pre-Crisis Origin

These appearances are no longer in continuity.

# Detective Comics #287/3 (January 1961): "J'onn J'onzz's Kid Brother" [Flashback]
# Justice League of America #71 (May 1969): "...and So My World Ends" [Flashback]
# Detective Comics #225/3 (November 1955): "The Strange Experiment of Dr. Erdel"

Post-Crisis Origin

# Martian Manhunter Vol. 2 #33 (August 2001): "In My Life Part One"
# Martian Manhunter Vol. 2 #34 (September 2001): "In My Life Part Two"
# Martian Manhunter Vol. 2 #35 (October 2001): "In My Life Part Three. Earthfall"
# Martian Manhunter Vol. 2 #7 (June 1999): "My Brother's Keeper" [Flashback]
# Martian Manhunter Vol. 2 #8 (July 1999): "Abandon All Hope" [Flashback]
# Martian Manhunter Vol. 2 #0 (October 1998): "Pilgrimage" [Flashback]

Post-Origin Chronology

Some appearances with a pre-1986 coverdate are no longer in continuity.

# Detective Comics #226/3 (December 1955): "The Case of the Magic Baseball"
# Detective Comics #227/3 (January 1956): "The Man with 20 Lives"
# Detective Comics #228/3 (February 1956): "Escape To the Stars"
# Detective Comics #229/3 (March 1956): "The Phantom Bodyguard"
# Detective Comics #230/3 (April 1956): "The Sleuth without a Clue"
# Detective Comics #231/3 (May 1956): "The Thief Who Had Super-Powers"
# Detective Comics #232/3 (June 1956): "The Dog with a Martian Master"
# Detective Comics #233/3 (July 1956): "The Ghost from Outer Space"
# Detective Comics #234/3 (August 1956): "The Martian Convict"
# Detective Comics #235/3 (September 1956): "The World's Greatest Magician"
# Detective Comics #236/3 (October 1956): "The Great Earth-Mars Mystery"
# Detective Comics #237/3 (November 1956): "The Sleuth Who Went To Jail"
# Detective Comics #238/3 (December 1956): "Earth Detective for a Day"
# Detective Comics #239/3 (January 1957): "Ordeal by Fire"
# Detective Comics #240/3 (February 1957): "The Hero Maker"
# Detective Comics #241/3 (March 1957): "The Impossible Manhunt"
# Detective Comics #242/3 (April 1957): "The Thirty Fathom Sleuth"
# Detective Comics #243/3 (May 1957): "The Criminal from Outer Space"
# Detective Comics #244/3 (June 1957): "The Four Stunts of Doom"
# Detective Comics #245/3 (July 1957): "The Phantom Fire Alarms"
# Detective Comics #246/3 (August 1957): "John Jones' Female Nemesis"
# Detective Comics #247/3 (September 1957): "The Impossible Messenger"
# Detective Comics #248/3 (October 1957): "The Martian Without a Memory"
# Detective Comics #249/3 (November 1957): "Target For a Day"
# Detective Comics #250/3 (December 1957): "The Stymied Sleuth"
# Detective Comics #251/3 (January 1958): "Alias Mr. Zero"
# Detective Comics #252/3 (February 1958): "The Menace of the Super Weapons"
# Detective Comics #253/3 (March 1958): "The Super Reporter"
# Detective Comics #254/3 (April 1958): "The One-Man Army"
# Detective Comics #255/3 (May 1958): "World-Wide Manhunt"
# Detective Comics #256/3 (June 1958): "The Carnival of Doom"
# Detective Comics #257/3 (July 1958): "King of the Underworld"
# Detective Comics #258/3 (August 1958): "The Jinxed Ship"
# Detective Comics #259/3 (September 1958): "The Getaway King"
# Detective Comics #260/3 (October 1958): "John Jones' Super Secret"
# Detective Comics #261/3 (November 1958): "The Midget Manhunter"
# Detective Comics #262/3 (December 1958): "The Animal Crime Kingdom"
# Detective Comics #263/3 (January 1959): "The Crime Computer"
# Detective Comics #264/3 (February 1959): "Menace of the Martian Weapons"
# Martian Manhunter: American Secrets #1 (1992): "American Secrets"
# Martian Manhunter: American Secrets #2 (1992): "American Secrets"
# Martian Manhunter: American Secrets #3 (1992): "American Secrets"
# Justice League of America #144 (July 1977): "The Origin of the Justice League - Minus One" [Flashback]
# Detective Comics #265/3 (March 1959): "The Fantastic Human Falcon"
# Detective Comics #266/3 (April 1959): "The Challenge of the Masked Avenger"
# Detective Comics #267/3 (May 1959): "John Jones' Farewell to Earth"
# Detective Comics #268/3 (June 1959): "The Mixed-Up Martian Powers"
# Detective Comics #269/3 (July 1959): "The Man Who Exposed John Jones"
# Detective Comics #270/3 (August 1959): "The Hunted Martian"
# Detective Comics #271/3 (September 1959): "The Lost Identity"
# Detective Comics #272/3 (October 1959): "The Super-Sleuth's Bodyguard"
# Detective Comics #273/3 (November 1959): "The Unmasking of J'onn J'onzz"
# Justice League of America #9 (February 1962): "The Origin of the Justice League" [Flashback]
# Secret Origins Vol. 2 #32 (November 1988): "All Together Now" [Replaces Justice League of America #9 in current continuity]
# Detective Comics #274/3 (December 1959): "The Human Flame"
# Detective Comics #275/3 (January 1960): "John Jones' Pesky Partner"
# Detective Comics #276/3 (February 1960): "The Crimes of John Jones"
# Brave and the Bold #28 (February-March 1960): "Starro the Conqueror"
# Detective Comics #277/3 (March 1960): "The Menace of Mr. Moth"
# Detective Comics #278/3 (April 1960): "The Defeat of J'onn J'onzz"
# Brave and the Bold #29 (April-May 1960): "Challenge of the Weapons Master"
# Detective Comics #279/2 (May 1960): "The Impossible Inventions"
# Detective Comics #280/3 (June 1960): "Bodyguard to a Bandit"
# Brave and the Bold #30 (June-July 1960): "Case of the Stolen Super-Powers"
# Detective Comics #281/3 (July 1960): "The Menace of Marsville"
# Detective Comics #282/3 (August 1960): "The Girl with the Martian Powers"
# Detective Comics #283/3 (September 1960): "The Amazing One-Man Crew"
# Detective Comics #284/3 (October 1960): "The Courtship of J'onn J'onzz"
# Justice League of America #1 (October-November 1960): "The World of No Return"
# Detective Comics #285/3 (November 1960): "The Menace of the Martian Mandrills"
# Detective Comics #286/3 (December 1960): "His Majesty, John Jones"
# Justice League of America #2 (December 1960-January 1961): "Secret of the Sinister Sorcerers"
# Detective Comics #287/3 (January 1961): "J'onn J'onzz's Kid Brother"
# Detective Comics #288/3 (February 1961): "The Case of the Honest Swindler"
# Justice League of America #3 (February-March 1961): "The Slave Ship of Space"
# Mystery in Space #75 (May 1962): "The Planet That Came To a Standstill"
# Detective Comics #289/3 (March 1961): "J'onn J'onzz--Witch Doctor"
# Detective Comics #290/3 (April 1961): "Lights, Camera, and Doom"
# Justice League of America #4 (April-May 1961): "Doom of the Star Diamond"
# Detective Comics #291/2 (May 1961): "The Second Martian Manhunter"
# Detective Comics #292/3 (June 1961): "The Ex-Convicts Club"
# Justice League of America #5 (June-July 1961): "When Gravity Went Wild"
# Detective Comics #293/3 (July 1961): "The Girl Hero Contest"
# Detective Comics #294/3 (August 1961): "The Martian Weakling"
# Justice League of America #6 (August-September 1961): "The Wheel of Misfortune"
# Detective Comics #295/2 (September 1961): "The Martian Show-Off"
# Detective Comics #296/2 (October 1961): "The Alien Bodyguard"
# Justice League of America #7 (October-November 1961): "The Cosmic Fun-House"
# Detective Comics #297/2 (November 1961): "J'onn J'onzz vs. the Vigilantes"
# Detective Comics #298/2 (December 1961): "The Man Who Impersonated J'onn J'onzz"
# Justice League of America #8 (December 1961-January 1962): "For Sale - the Justice League"
# Detective Comics #299/2 (January 1962): "Bodyguard for a Spy"
# Detective Comics #300/2 (February 1962): "The J'onn J'onzz Museum"
# Justice League of America #9 (February 1962): "The Origin of the Justice League"
# Detective Comics #301/2 (March 1962): "The Mystery of the Martian Marauders"
# Detective Comics #302/2 (April 1962): "The Crime King of Mount Olympus"
# Detective Comics #303/2 (May 1962): "The Great J'onn J'onzz Hunt"
# Justice League of America #10 (March 1962): "The Fantastic Fingers of Felix Faust"
# Justice League of America #11 (May 1962): "One Hour to Doomsday"
# Detective Comics #304/2 (June 1962): "The Crime College"
# Justice League of America #12 (June 1962): "The Last Case of the Justice League"
# Detective Comics #305/2 (July 1962): "J'onn J'onzz vs. Futureman"
# Detective Comics #306/2 (August 1962): "The Last Days of J'onn J'onzz"
# Justice League of America #13 (August 1962): "The Riddle of the Robot Justice League"
# Detective Comics #307/2 (September 1962): "Alias Scarface Scanlon"
# Justice League of America #14 (September 1962): "The Menace of the 'Atom' Bomb"
# Detective Comics #308/2 (October 1962): "The Day John Jones Vanished"
# Detective Comics #309/2 (November 1962): "The Man Who Saved Earth"
# Justice League of America #15 (November 1962): "The Challenge of the Untouchable Aliens"
# Detective Comics #310/2 (December 1962): "The Miniature Manhunter"
# Justice League of America #16 (December 1962): "The Cavern of Deadly Spheres"
# Detective Comics #311/2 (January 1963): "The Invaders from the Space Warp"
# Detective Comics #312/2 (February 1963): "J'onn J'onzz's Pesky Partner"
# Justice League of America #17 (February 1963): "The Triumph of the Tornado Tyrant"
# Detective Comics #313/2 (March 1963): "The Wizard Who Conquered J'onn J'onzz"
# Justice League of America #18 (March 1963): "Journey into the Micro-World"
# Detective Comics #314/2 (April 1963): "J'onn J'onzz vs. John Jones"
# Detective Comics #315/2 (May 1963): "The Man of 1,000 Disguises"
# Justice League of America #19 (May 1963): "The Super-Exiles of Earth"
# Detective Comics #316/2 (June 1963): "The Bandits with Super-Powers"
# Justice League of America #20 (June 1963): "The Mystery of Spaceman X"
# Detective Comics #317/2 (July 1963): "The Challenge of the Alien Robots"
# Detective Comics #318/2 (August 1963): "J'onn J'onzz's Enemy--Zook"
# Detective Comics #319/2 (September 1963): "J'onn J'onzz--Wizard of 1463"
# Justice League of America #21 (August 1963): "Crisis on Earth-One"
# Justice League of America #22 (September 1963): "Crisis on Earth-Two"
# Detective Comics #320/2 (October 1963): "The Case of the Golden Eagle"
# Brave and the Bold #50 (October-November 1963): "Wanted--the Capsule Master"
# Detective Comics #321/2 (November 1963): "The Cosmic Creature"
# Justice League of America #23 (November 1963): "Drones of the Queen Bee" [Appearance same as in Atom #8]
# Detective Comics #322/2 (December 1963): "The Man Who Destroyed J'onn J'onzz"
# Justice League of America #24 (December 1963): "Decoy Missions of the Justice League"
# Detective Comics #323/2 (January 1964): "The Hobby Missions"
# Detective Comics #324/2 (February 1964): "The Beast Who Was J'onn J'onzz"
# Detective Comics #325/2 (March 1964): "The Hero of 500 BC"
# Justice League of America #26 (March 1964): "Four Worlds to Conquer"
# Detective Comics #326/2 (April 1964): "The Death of John Jones, Detective"
# Justice League of America #27 (May 1964): "The 'I' Who Defeated the Justice League"
# House of Mystery #143 (June 1964): "The Giant-Maker"
# Green Lantern Vol. 2 #29/2 (June 1964): "The World is Mine"
# House of Mystery #144 (July 1964): "The Weird World of Gilgana"
# House of Mystery #145 (September 1964): "The Secret of the Purple People"
# House of Mystery #146 (October 1964): "The Doom Shadow"
# JLA: Incarnations #1 (July 2001): "The Justice League is Dead!"
# Justice League of America #31 (November 1964): "Riddle of the Runaway Room"
# Aquaman Vol. 1 #18 (November-December 1964): "The Wife of Aquaman"
# Brave and the Bold #56 (October-November 1964): "Raid of the Mutant Marauders"
# House of Mystery #147 (December 1964): "The Orchestra of Doom"
# House of Mystery #148 (January 1965): "The Beings in the Color Rings"
# Justice League of America #33 (February 1965): "Enemy from the Timeless World"
# House of Mystery #149 (March 1965): "The Man-Thing That Unearthed Secrets"
# House of Mystery #150 (April 1965): "The Supernatural Masterpieces"
# House of Mystery #151 (June 1965): "The Doom From Two Worlds"
# Justice League of America #36 (June 1965): "The Case of the Disabled Justice League"
# House of Mystery #152 (July 1965): "Iwangis--Creature King"
# House of Mystery #153 (September 1965): "The Giants Who Slept 1,000,000 Years"
# Justice League of America #38 (September 1965): "Crisis on Earth-A"
# House of Mystery #154 (October 1965): "The Mirror Martian Manhunter"
# Justice League of America #40 (November 1965): "Indestructible Creatures of Nightmare Island"
# House of Mystery #155 (December 1965): "The Giant Genie of Gensu"
# Justice League of America #41 (December 1965): "The Key-Master of the World"
# House of Mystery #156/2 (January 1966): "Look What Happened To J'onn J'onzz"
# House of Mystery #157/2 (March 1966): "Manhunter, World's Greatest Clown"
# House of Mystery #158/2 (April 1966): "The Origin of the Diabolu Idol-Head"
# Justice League of America #44 (May 1966): "The Plague That Struck the Justice League"
# House of Mystery #159/2 (June 1966): "The Devil-Men of Pluto"
# House of Mystery #160/2 (July 1966): "Manhunter's New Secret Identity"
# House of Mystery #161/2 (September 1966): "The Unmasking of Marco Xavier"
# House of Mystery #162/2 (October 1966): "The Lair of Mr. V"
# Aquaman Vol. 1 #30 (November-December 1966): "The Death of Aquaman"
# Justice League of America #52 (March 1967): "Missing in Action - 5 Justice Leaguers" [Flashback]
# House of Mystery #163/2 (December 1966): "The Doomed Captive"
# Justice League of America #50 (December 1966): "The Lord of Time Attacks the 20th Century"
# House of Mystery #164/2 (January 1967): "Marco vs. Manhunter"
# House of Mystery #165/2 (March 1967): "The Deadly Martian"
# House of Mystery #166/2 (April 1967): "Vulture's Crime Goliaths"
# House of Mystery #167/2 (June 1967): "Marco Xavier, Manhunter's Ally"
# Justice League of America #54 (June 1967): "History-Making Costumes of the Royal Flush Gang"
# House of Mystery #168/2 (July 1967): "Thantos--the 3-In-1 Man"
# Superman Vol. 1 #199 (August 1967): "Superman's Race with the Flash"
# JLA: Incarnations #2 (August 2001): "Belonging"
# Silver Age: Secret Files #1 (July 2000): "The Silver Age"
# Silver Age #1 (July 2000): "Pawns of the Invincible Immortal!"
# Silver Age: Dial "H" For Hero #1 (July 2000): "The One-Man Justice League"
# Silver Age: Green Lantern #1 (July 2000): "Alone... Against Injustice!"
# Silver Age 80-Page Giant #1 (July 2000): "S.O.S. to Nowhere!"
# House of Mystery #169/2 (September 1967): "The Manhunter Monster"
# House of Mystery #170/2 (October 1967): "The Martian Double-Cross"
# Flash Vol. 1 #175 (December 1967): "The Race to the End of the Universe"
# House of Mystery #171 (December 1967): "The Martian Marauders"
# Justice League of America #59 (December 1967): "The Justice Leaguers' Impossible Adventure"
# House of Mystery #172 (January-February 1968): "Manhunter's Stolen Identity"
# Justice League of America #60 (February 1968): "Winged Warriors of the Immortal Queen"
# Justice League of America #61 (March 1968): "Operation: Jail the Justice League"
# House of Mystery #173/2 (March-April 1968): "So You're Faceless!"
# Justice League of America #240 (July 1985): "The Future Ain't What It Used to Be!" [Flashback]
# Action Comics #365 (July 1968): "Superman's Funeral"
# Action Comics #366 (August 1968): "Substitute Superman"
# Justice League of America #71 (May 1969): "...and So My World Ends"
# Superman Vol. 1 #253 (June 1972): "The Kid Who Saved Superman"
# World's Finest Comics #212 (June 1972): "And So My World Begins"
# Justice League of America #100 (August 1972): "The Unknown Soldier of Victory"
# Justice League of America #115 (January-February 1975): "The Last Angry God"
# Adventure Comics #449/2 (January-February 1977): "Mission: Catch a Killer"
# Adventure Comics #450/2 (March-April 1977): "Return To Destiny"
# Adventure Comics #451/2 (May-June 1977): "The Suspects"
# World's Finest Comics #245 (June-July 1977): "Today Mars, Tomorrow the Universe"
# Justice League of America #177 (April 1980): "The Graveyard Gambit"
# Justice League of America #178 (May 1980): "The Chess-Master of Mars"
# DC Comics Presents #27 (November 1980): "The Key That Unlocked Chaos"
# JLA: Incarnations #3 (September 2001): "Like a Tombstone in the Sky" [Pages 8 through 38]
# Justice League of America #187 (February 1981): "Proteus Says: 'All Things Must Change!'"
# Justice League of America #200 (March 1982): "A League Divided"
# Justice League of America #228 (July 1984): "War - of the World?"
# Justice League of America #229 (August 1984): "War of the Worlds 1984: Part Two"
# Justice League of America #230 (September 1984): "War of the Worlds 1984: Part Three - Blessed is the Peacemaker"
# Justice League of America #232 (November 1984): "Family Crisis - Part Two: Battlegrounds"
# Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984): "- The End of the Justice League"
# Justice League of America #233 (December 1984): "Rebirth: One, Gang War"
# Justice League of America #234 (January 1985): "Rebirth: Two, Claws"
# Justice League of America #235 (February 1985): "Rebirth: Three, Heavy Metal"
# Justice League of America #236 (March 1985): "Rebirth: Part Four - Conclusion, Gypsy Genius"
# Justice League of America #237 (April 1985): "Lest Auld Acquaintance Be Forgot..."
# Justice League of America #238 (May 1985): "Savage Symphony"
# Justice League of America #239 (June 1985): "In the Shadow of the Ox"
# Justice League of America #241 (August 1985): "Sea Change"
# Justice League of America #242 (September 1985): "Battle Cry"
# Justice League of America #243 (October 1985): "Storm Cloud"
# Infinity, Inc. #19 (October 1985): "Last Crisis on Earth-Two!"
# Justice League of America #244 (November 1985): "The Final Crisis"
# Detective Comics #557 (December 1985): "Still Beating"
# Crisis on Infinite Earths #5 (August 1985): "Worlds in Limbo"
# Crisis on Infinite Earths #6 (September 1985): "3 Earths! 3 Deaths!"
# Crisis on Infinite Earths #7 (October 1985): "Beyond the Silent Night"
# Crisis on Infinite Earths #8 (November 1985): "A Flash of the Lightning!"
# Justice League of America Annual #3 (1985): "Force of Nature "
# Crisis on Infinite Earths #9 (December 1985): "War Zone"
# Justice League of America #245 (December 1985): "The Long Road Home"
# Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 (March 1986): "Final Crisis"
# Justice League of America #246 (January 1986): "Be It Ever So Humble"
# Justice League of America #247 (February 1986): "...There's No Place Like Home"
# Justice League of America #248 (March 1986): "Interweavings"
# Justice League of America #249 (April 1986): "All Fall Down"
# Justice League of America #250 (May 1986): "The Return of the Justice League of America"
# Justice League of America #251 (June 1986): "Hunters and Prey"
# Justice League of America #252 (July 1986): "Arrival"
# Justice League of America #253 (August 1986): "Pyre"
# Justice League of America #254 (September 1986): "Desperate Climax"
# Justice League of America #255 (October 1986): "Rising"
# Justice League of America #256 (November 1986): "Back to Godhead"
# Justice League of America #257 (December 1986): "Coming Down"
# Legends #1 (November 1986): "Once Upon A Time...!"
# Legends #2 (December 1986): "Breach of Faith!"
# Justice League of America #258 (January 1987): "The End of the Justice League of America: Saving Face"
# Justice League of America #259 (February 1987): "The End of the Justice League of America: Homecoming"
# Justice League of America #260 (March 1987): [The End of the Justice League of America] "Flesh"
# Justice League of America #261 (April 1987): "The End of the Justice League of America: Last Stand"
# Legends #6 (April 1987): "Finale!"
# Justice League #1 (May 1987): "Born Again"

J'onn was basically gone from 1972 to 1982 with only a few appearances, but he was pretty much a JLA regular up until issue 71 or so--and then back around issue 200.

The big 7 were actually pretty consistent until Black Canary, green lantern, hawkman and girl, atom, elongated man, etc started popping up regularly.

The point was that it did mildly bother some people simply for contradicting the little they know about the character, which is an example of the mentality I'm talking about.



It surpassed it's own budget, which is decent business, but by no means was it a hit. A movie like that, as good as it may be, can never be a hit because it presents itself as something and it turns out to be something else. People don't like to feel "cheated".



A well crafted film will stand the test of time, but that's not what the studios want. The studios want a good theatric run. If a movie is good, the same people who hated it when it first came out might eventually come to appreciate it later, but that doesn't matter in the least to the studios. They don't care if they have a classic in their hands: if the box office numbers disappoint, it's considered a 'failure'.



Either Manga Kahn or Wally's mom.



Eh, as long as people recognize the name and the powers, they might as well have G'nort as GL and no one will get upset.



Again: the show isn't a factor. Most people who will see the movie have never seen the show, because it's stupid. It's the exact same concept as the movie, but it's stupid because it's animated. The same goes for X-Men: that name said nothing to most people before the first movie came out, because they don't watch cartoons and they certainly don't read no fucking comic books (COME ON). Of course they didn't care who was in X-Men: they didn't know the X-Men! At most they were aware that it was some stupid cartoon that's been turned not stupid by adapting it into a movie.

The Justice League concept is well known not because of the cartoon or even superfriends, but because it's a simple, archetypical idea. Big superheroes get together. That's easy to understand, easy to explain, and easy to retain, so it's found it's way into popular culture. That's why it's a concept the movie can't afford to betray (again: assuming its purpose is making big bucks and not being a trascendental film).



When has Joel Schumacher done anything but give people what they expect?



Occasionally, studios can be daring and try new things. But they're not gonna take that risk with a well-known concept, because the prospect of milking it for as much money as they can is too tempting. They COULD make a great JLA movie with only little-known characters in the roster, but they'd piss off a lot of the initial audience by doing so, and the movie would be a 'failure'.

Here's why I find the biggest fault with your argument. You say that no one will read the comics or watch the cartoon, yet they somehow have an understanding of what the JLA is. How? How do they know all this? How did your friends know about Spidey's webshooters being mechanical originally? I'll tell you how. Either they read the comics or watched one of the many incarnations of the character on TV (one live action TV show, a bit part on The Electric Company, and three cartoons just off the top of my head). If those aren't a factor, then the general public is not going to be disappointed if Batman or Superman don't make it into the JLA movie because they won't know to expect them. Plain and simple. And if they do expect them, that means that they've been exposed to the comics or cartoons over the years, which will also mean that they've been exposed to the other characters and used to the idea of them being in the JLA. Either way, it's not much of a stretch to still entice them to watch a JLA movie devoid of the big three. All you'll need is a really big budget with cutting edge FX and a cool teaser trailer to get people through the front doors and into the seats at the theaters.

Exactly!

Green Lantern was there from the begining!

It's called pop culture. You just know these things. A reference here and a quick mention there give you a basic understanding of simple concept. Voila. How do people who've lived their whole lives without electricity (let alone TVs), people who can't even afford to glance at a comic, know who The Flash is? They just do. He's a pop culture icon, so he's bound to find his way into their heads and stay there.

Try doing this: Ask an average Joe, anyone who looks like they don't watch cartoons or read comics, to name the members of the Justice League. I assure you Spider-Man has more chances of being mentioned than Black Canary or even Hawkman. Why? Because he's a big superhero, and the simple, basic, elementary concept of the JLA is... yep, you guessed it.

I think you'll find they are more likely to say "What's the Justice League?"

They'll either know nothing or know very little, and if they know very little, the small bit of information they're aware of won't be "they lived in a satellite".

Find me that person. Honestly, find him or her. Someone who is that fucking far off the map and still knows who the Flash is. I dare you. Because the fact remains, in order for someone to know something through pop culture, they have to be exposed to that culture (i.e. TV, magazines, comics, etc.).

I'm sure they watched cartoons or maybe even read comics as a kid. I think that's another flaw in your argument. You're not taking that into account. The current movie audience didn't spring from a fucking pod full grown. I guarantee you someone who doesn't watch cartoons now can tell you who Scooby Doo is. Why? Because there's a 99.9999999% chance that they watched it as a kid or even watched it with their kid.



So, are you saying that a JLA movie can't be made unless Spider-man is in it? Because, those people are obviously expecting Spider-man. If they don't get what they expect. Then the movie will never be successful.

So they'll have little expectation and, therefore, be more open to whatever they get offered as a JLA movie.

Mxy, you've really defeated your own arguments here with multiple contradictory statements. how can something be "pop culture" if people know nothing about it? the word is the defintion: popular culture. which means people must have at least a passing familiarity with the concept.

yes, Spider-Man is more well known than a lot of characters, but that's because like the JL and Superfriends, he's had several cartoon series, going back to the sixties. but again, the only people bitching about the organic webshooters are comic fans on the internet. but by your definitions of "pop culture" people should be bitching that he wasn't hanging out with Iceman and Firestar through all three movies. but cartoons don't help make characters popular. right. I guess they just enter into the public consciousness by osmosis.

do You really think From Dusk Till Dawn wasn't a hit? people went to see the movie. yes, there's a percentage of people that didn't like the twist. we covered this. but the fact is that most of the people that went to see it were well aware of the twist going into the movie. it's not like it was a big kept secret. the film also spawned two sequels (though they sucked). last time I checked, a movie had to be somewhat of a hit to have a sequel. and not to mention, it only jumpstarted George Clooney's film career. but I guess he was just "pop cultured" into successful films through osmosis again.

oh, and the quote was Ronald Reagan and Amanda Waller in the JLI/Suicide Squad crossover, so no points for you!

Hello, I'm Mxy. I live in a third world country. Illegal camps of people who live in self-made houses, and have lived in that state for generations, aren't that uncommon here. They have no TV, they can't afford to buy a newspaper, but it's amazing how much pop culture concepts they're aware of (I mean... considering. It's not like they can tell you what Paris Hilton did this week). Pop culture gets around, be it through references in the media, pictures in lunchboxes and underpants, or simple conversation. Getting around is all it ever does. Much like Paris Hilton.



Believe it or not, childhood cartoons aren't as important to "normal" people as they are to us geeks. Chances are that if you ask someone who watched Superfriends as a kid who Apache Chief is, they'll have no idea. I used to watch the fucking Carebears, I'm told, but I don't remember shit about, except that they're bears and they love me. Everyone knows Scooby Doo, but not just because they watched him as kids. He's another pop culture icon they would know even if they had never seen an episode. Apache Chief, not so much.



What they expect isn't seeing specifically Spider-Man or even Superman, but simply "known superheroes". Make a JLA movie with Birdman, Spawn and Robocop and it'll be okay with most people. Use actual JLA members nobody knows, and they'll feel cheated.

I'M MXY!

Precisely because they have a basic, almost instinctive knowledge of the concept, the one thing you can't afford to contradict is that one bit of information everyone's aware of.

Which is what I've been saying all along. You can't squeeze an entire concept into popular culture: it doesn't retain that much. There's one bit of information that everyone will know, and in this case, that information is that the JLA is a group of known superheroes. That's what the passing familiarity you speak of is composed of.



Of course cartoons help characters get into pop culture, but once they're firmly planted there, that's where they'll stay. Look at Popeye: what's that fucker done for the past two decades? Kids today have never seen a Popeye cartoon, yet they're probably aware of the character because he's part of pop culture.



It's a fact that most people go into movies knowing nothing or really little about them. Most people don't watch trailers or read reviews. They show up at the theatre, look around, "hey, that looks scary"/"hey, that looks funny"/"hey, that's Alf there", buy pop corn, get in. Word of mouth can get you to go see a specific movie, but in general it consists of nothing but "hey, you know that talking car movie? it's really good."



It has sequels because it's a cult film, that is, it's a movie with staying power... but not a hit. How can you tell a cult sequel from a hit sequel? When it's more than two years after the original on limited video release.

This is really simple. "Hit" is a technical term that indicates how a movie did on its initial theatrical run. In this case, the movie surpassed its budget, but not a by too much. I think a nasty cunt in this forum once told me a movie has to DOUBLE it's budget to be considered a hit, and that seems like an accurate definition.



Grimmers, don't get so defensive. I don't hate FDTD. I'm indifferent to it. I only know about how it did and all because we talked about this case in class, while covering about this very subject. Besides, I'm not the type of guy to use box office figures to argue about the quality of a film.



TURD. Shit, I'm sure Wally's mom said something similar...