RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Comic Books I've Figured It Out

Well, it's a my opinion kinda "figured it out". But I have been wondering why modern comic readers keep asking for realistic dialogue and realistic character portrayals. Why they want their heroes with realistic power levels(if there is such a thing ) and "human personalities". Etc , etc, etc....

I came to this conclusion at work today. The ladies I work with were discussing som emiserable reality TV show..talking about how stupid this person was or why they couldn't believe this person did "that". Quite honestly I blurred out most of the conversation, but something hit me. They like these shows because it makes them feel better about themselves. they apparently have such low perceptions of themselves that they need the people around them..be it celebrities or otherwise to be so flawed that they cannot doubt that they are themselves better and more worthy human beings. They enjoy seeing people tear themselves down or being stripped for what they are or appear to be. The vivisected faults displayed to the world.

But alas, that was only the start of my moment of clarity. Since I'm such a nerd i immediately transposed this reality to the reality of ..you guessed it..the modern comic culture. The moment of clarity was that modern readers are lazy and self-loathing (I suppose that is the majority of society as well).

We (the culture-not necessarily all readers)are lazy, we are emotionally and psychicly shattered. We want super-heroes to be more like us rather than we ourselves being more like them. Instead of them being mostly noble or mostly evil..we want the greys. The greys that we perceive the world to be full of...which in many ways it is. But we are in fact so lazy we even want our cultural icons to be dragged down to our level. We want them scarred and fractured and strewn trough the filth of the soiled earth. By god, we want them realistic. we want them more sexual, because we are more sexual. We want them more violent, because we are more violent. We don't want to aspire to be a reflection of the past nobility of bygone eras..we want them chopped at the knees so they more closely hover at our level. Because we can relate to that. We want to think, "if given the right circumstances. I could be better or atleast as good as that hero". Why? Because they have our faults and our insecurities and our foibles. they can't view ours, but we can view theirs. By god our live sare so complicated. We need there live sto be more complicated too. Because we live in a faster world..that's so much tougher than the world of the 40's or 50's. Man, they had it easy back then. So in a typically modern way of thinking, as aculture, we say "There must be something wrong with the material. There can't be abything wrong with the readers." We lay blame upon the subject matter-the material rather than upon the reader or potential reader. Where the blame and fault truly lies. Yes, the pool of readership.

You're fat- blame McDonalds, You're a killer- blame society, You're dumb as a brick-blame the schools, you're dying of cancer-blame the cigarette company. You're not making $100,000 a year-blame the glass ceiling or blame rascists. You're not getting enough bread on the table-go to teh govt for help, not making enough to pay the bills you've encurred-declare bankruptcy. Not good at speling or math-find a computer program that can do it for you. I tell you the vast majority of people must apparently be shiftless and lazy, or lack imagination. And certainly don't believe in magic and quite frankly aren't creative. I can't have a dog that flys.so a dog that flies is stupid. You can't move a planet-that's scientific hogwash..blahh.

I can't believe in Batman--Hell, I'd just kill the Joker, etc.....How can Batman let him live??
You know, that's the point. heroes are supposed to be better than us. heroes are supposed to have unshakeable ideals and always seek to improve themselves and even..gasp..try to make the world around them better. instead of bringing their world down to their level.

And that's all comcis are doing now is bringing the lofty ideal of the hero..down to the level of the average reader..who is lazy, enjoys regurgitated tripe and most of all wnats "realistic" heroes. No, that isn't a hero..that's the reader and the blame everyone else culture.

Don't get me wrong there is a place for realistic comics, and they can be marvelous. But there is also a place for a super-hero to be an actual hero..someone to imagine being as good as. When super-heroes become more like "us' we destroy their uniqueness, and what made them special to begin with. We make them cheap, and common. And we also make them more like us..mostly worthless and trash-bin material.

I don't know I'm rambling and could probably have made my arguement more concise, but this is off the top of my head without editing...lazy, you know???

I disagree. I actually think that modern technology has made us more exposed to entertainment, and therefore more discerning and sophisticated.

Once, a comic with the idea of a flying man in a cape seemed cool. Now, we can

• * go buy a video and engage in the quasi-realism of Vampire D or Lara Croft or whoever
  
  * use skins on the internet
  
  * have an enormous choice of movies (including home DVDs)
  
  * have an enormous choice of TV.

There are plenty of very sophisticated mediums with very sophisticated entertainment open to us.

Plodding right up the rear with poetry is the modern comic book. Reading an inanimate sequence of panels about a flying guy with a post-Great Depression sense of morality is almost hokey.

The other thing is that we as adult readers are intent on resisting the label of reading stuff for kids. We want to show people that its a serious drama. Archie and Jughead are not serious: Batman lugging a 300lb psychopath to the top of Gotham Towers to torture him is dead serious and dramatic.

I don't think it's so much that we want to bring them to our level, I think we want to be at their level. We want to see our heroes knocked down a bit, to struggle to try to regain what was lost, to be more heroic, in a realistic sense.

I'll use Superman and Batman as examples. A lot of people complain that Superman comics are crap lately. I wouldn't know. I don't read 'em. I don't like Superman. But the reasons I don't like the character, and the reasons people complain about his books are probably the same, in my opinion.

Superman is this indestructable, god-like being. Moral to a fault, physically perfect, immortal. Superman is not a hero. He can't be hurt. He risks nothing. There's no danger, there's no drama, no tension. Nothing. He's boring, bland, milquetoast, etc. because he is so perfect. He has no faults.

Batman is a character who is all too human at his core. Batman loses his cool, he gets a little too violent, he gets hurt a lot. Batman is not perfect. Batman will (should, anyway) age. He risks everything when he's out playing around. When we see Batman in a catastrophe, there is a chance he won't come out of it alive, whole, or anything. That makes him a hero. What makes him a Super Hero is when bad things do happen to him, he struggles, he fights to maintain what he has or regain what he's lost. He may want to kill the Joker. We would. We're routing for him. But deep down we know, he can't cross that line. That's what makes Batman more Super Man than Superman.

Another good example: Daredevil. This character has had more shit roll down on him than any other character I can think of. Fans like that, not because we want Daredevil to live our pathetic lives, but because bad things happen, and we want to see how a real hero responds to it, to maintain order in his own fucked up life, maybe to inspire us to be better than we can be.

As for wanting realistic dialogue? C'mon, who wouldn't want that? If you knew someone who spoke in melodramtic prose and described basic commonly known things in intense detail, wouldn't you want to smack that person?

And as for reality shows... they hugely popular, but I've never met one goddamn person who's ever watched one on purpose of their own choosing. I like to think comic readers are a bit smarter to fall for the reality tv trap.

Nobody, you've hit upon the reason why I like Batman and Daredevil more than a character like Superman. A hero faces and cheats death through acts of bravery. A guy who can move mountains with a shrug doesn't usually need to exhibit bravery.

Just curious - has there been a Superman story where he breaks with his "high moral character"? I haven't read any Superman book for a while - but any one-off issue where he acts less than perfect?

To see the characters like Batman and Daredevil overcoming obstacles, problems, challenges without god-like powers is certainly more interesting AND inspiring.

On the other hand, "reality" superheroes like those in Brat Pack are not what I enjoy reading about. I still want the hero to be a hero, not just better than I am (that's not too hard) but better than I can be.

Dave, if a kid can get that stuff elsewhere..where there is less effort involved. ie reading. Then why should they buy a comic. Manga is very popular today, but theer are moral lessons and an underlying good vs evil theme in many of them. granted many of them are soft porn, but basically many manga are still running on the same past themes of traditionalism. American comics are not..necessarily in the fundamentals. they are reaching for that older reader..ie YOU. You like them because of what they are now. i was talking about Kids liking them. i'm saying they can get the entertainment modern superheroes perform now in many areas. So, why should they buy a comic about someone who is as messed up as their Mom, Dad or older Brother?

I don't necessarily have a problem with many modern comics because they do speak to me, but do tehy speak to teh kids? i would say no. Kids later on respect parents who discipline them, because they inwardly seek those lessons and those ideals. yes, they may want to rebel. But maybe they want to rebel only as far as villainesses in tight costumes, maybe not as far as rape.... Now, do you see where I'm coming from?

And I do think much of comic readership is smarter than the rest of teh culture. my point was why doesn't the rest of the culture want to raed comics..because there is nothing here they can't get elsewhere. If you are content on gaining college age raeders then ontinue on the same path I say, but if younger readers are to be gained..then there has to be a change in the focus of storytelling.

Another point was that "society" has changed, and they don't want heroes in the classic sense. So, in a sense there is little hope for gaining many new readers..except with Authority and ultimates types books.

I don't have a problem with heroes like Daredevil and Batman overcoming obstacles. i like them as well. My point was -which I didn't focus on cause I was tired- why aren't comics selling. I was thinking this was one of many reasons.

I think that another problem with comics is that because of there ongoing nature they don't get to work within some of the more traditonal aspects of drama. If you think of some of the "Classics of comics" things like Watchmen, Dark Knight returns and Dark Phonix saga get thrown around. Part of why these stories work is because they work as 3 act dramas with effect and concequence. This was achieved noy only through good writing but through the fact that they were Elseworld stories, Mini series or part of an ongoing series where the status quoe was able to be changed so there was real drama.
In the past comics were an inexpensive entertainment aimed at a younger audience as for the most part a self contained story. Now Im sure if I could duck to the future and get some comics I'm sure Batman will be Bruce Wayne still chasing the Joker around, Superman will still be Clark in love with Lois and as self rightous as ever.
We are expecting more sophisticated and advanced stories but we need the reset button set at the end of each story arc so the story telling process is stiffeled.
Any good writer will tell you they know where the characters will roughly be at the end of the novel, play whatever where as comic writers don't have this luxuary and because Batman is coming out every month forever he wont beat the Joker, marry Catwoman or die. So we as readers are never fulfilled. If a new chapter of Oliver Twist or Chatcher in the rye or a new act of the Cruicable was released ever month these stories would too lose there impact.
Just my opinion though.

You know, it's hard to think about kids and comics. I mean, we're all adults here, for the most part, but young adults. We all face the problems of everyday life, we're all out on our own, paying bills and taxes, but we still got the stink of youth on us. It's just that all that other crap makes us forget about the youth part. We've lost our connection to why we got into comics in the first place, and as a comic-reading culture, how to get new readers (i.e. kids) into the fold.

It's sad to say, but since we are the majority, comics for kids don't sell, 'cause we're not kids. We're the ones buying the books that come out. Part of the problem, I think, is that as adult comic readers, we've attached this defensiveness about comics being for kids to ourselves. We get very defensive, we proudly and loudly proclaim that comics aren't for kids, and we segregate ourselves and them.

The louder we say that, the fewer kids comics get made, and the ones that do don't sell. I'd almost have to say that we're at fault for that. And not just us, the comic readers, but the majority society as well.

God I'm rambling, this will make no sense as a whole.

I was watching The Animatrix today with my girlfriend (one of those seemingly rare girls that likes comics). There's a documentary on the DVD about the histoy of anime, and it ties directly into manga. Japanese writers and artists have pretty much cornered every last possible subject to translate into comic form. There are manga out there for EVERYONE, and they know it. They know where to look for whatever piques their interests.

Here in the US (I don't know about the rest of the world. Any non-US residents care to help me hide my ignornace?), comics are generally considered superhero kiddie fare (which kids don't read) and porn comics. The thing is, there are comics out there for everyone as well, they're just damn hard to find, and sometimes, you just don't know what you're looking for.

You walk into a Waldenbooks, and there are shelves and rows clearly marked as the type of book (Fiction, Mystery, Horror, Young Adult, Children, Humor, etc.) Maybe if comic stores took this approach, there could be a wider acceptance? I dunno.

It occurs to me my six year old nephew loves Batman and Spider-Man. And I don't know why. I've never thought to ask. Maybe I should. Again, this is where we need to take responsibility to recruting into this cult of ours.

Some of you might know my friend and I have been struggling to put out our own comics (for sale soon at my signature!), and I would not feel comfortable letting my nephew read them. Our superhero book, especially. Hell, even our books without swearing contain excessive violence. In fact our only story acceptable by any age is really not reader-friendly at all. I have an all-ages story that I'd like to do eventually, but the timing hasn't worked out yet. To be honest, I wasn't comfortable letting my Dad read the books.

I really don't know where this is going anymore. It turned into a half-assed sales pitch. I'm gonna quit.

"modern readers are lazy and self-loathing (I suppose that is the majority of society as well)"

While there have been some very interesting points made on this thread, I would like, first and foremost, to AGREE vehemently with the initial premise. Many-- FAR too many these days-- have low self-esteem, and rather than try to overcome it, prefer dragging the rest of the world down to their level.

Take the US Post Office. My dad worked there for 30 years. The last 5 years he was there (the late 1980s) he told me it was "no longer" a good place to work-- because they'd been "forced" to lower their standards and as a result, were hiring people who were not only not good at their jobs, but had no interest in ever becoming good at their jobs.

Jim Starlin wrote an epic about it once, in his "Metamorphosis Odyssey". The Zygote race had over-developed their planet until it became an unliveable cesspool. They then conquiered other planets to live on... eventually repeating the process. It reached a point where they, as a race, KNEW how bad they'd become, and worse, KNEW what they'd once been like but lost-- and could NOT STAND this self-knowledge, to the point where they then determined to DESTROY anyone else who reminded them of what they no longer were.

It may be a stretch-- but I see this kind of thinking among KIDS in my neighborhood all the time. Generation after generation being brought up with no moral fibre whatsoever, almost INSTINCTIVELY drawn to hurt anyone who has any. It's like a literal battle of good and evil-- with evil being drawn to destroy good, because it KNOWS, deep down, what it is-- and what it ISN'T.

A bit high-falutin', perhaps, but somehow fitting in a discussion about "funnybooks"!

I think there's some truth to the "we don't want to aspire to anything, we'd rather drag everything down to our own level" idea. Heroes who are supposed to inspire and generate a sense of hope are written off as "cornpone" and "Boy Scout white bread," while characters who don't do much of anything beyond killing, maiming, and doing pretty much everything that's negative about humanity in general are praised to the skies. And then you have the characters who are meant to be a middle ground between the two gulfs, like Batman (darker than Superman, but far more noble and heroic than the blood-soaked antiheroes), who people keep bitching "aren't dark enough." The classic "no killing unless it's an absolute necessity, if at all" motif of superheroes is bashed as cowardly. The classic colorful costumes, secret identities, and larger-than-life sense of fun all get slaughtered because they aren't "realistic," with demands to eradicate all of them and go for street clothes, open identities, and "realism."

People simply don't want to enjoy fantasy anymore. They don't want to be inspired to do better or become more than they are. They want characters who are exactly like them, period. So what do we get? A cowardly, pussywhipped, emotionally unstable Superman who has to see a shrink. A Batman who more often than not gets portrayed as a one-note violence machine with no redeeming qualities. A Captain America devoid of any sense of hope or inspiration. A Spider-Man whose life was for a long stretch of time 100% depressing, without a single break from the gloom and doom. Superheroes routinely having their secret identities blown out of the water. Colorful costumes being trashed in favor of black leather and/or street clothes. The sense of fun and excitement comics used to have being wiped away to make room for as much tragedy, "epic events," and depressing "realism" as the writers can pile on. And so on. The sense that I get--and have had for some time now--is that people don't want heroes. They don't want the excitement, the fun, the escapism and fantasy. They don't want to be inspired or transported to another world. They want everything to be as corrupt, pessimistic, colorless, and soulless as they are. Superheroes, I'm afraid, have become victims of humanity's increasing apathy and callousness.

Which, in a way, is why I'm starting to steer away from superhero comics and getting more into humor books and manga (I just picked up Ghost In The Shell today--that book is trippy, let me tell you) and looking into getting some fantasy material like CrossGen. Too many of the heroes I grew up with have been warped into characters I either can't stomach or just simply would never be inspired or excited by.

I don't agree! Certainly the writers/editors seem to think readers don't want REAL heros anymore since they've written the stuff that King K and others have complained about. But is that what people really want? I don't think so! I want Superman to be a REAL hero! I don't want SM to be wimpy, indecisive, etc. Spider-Man works as an insecure character, to a point, but when he started to remind me too much of my own problems, I stopped reading him. I stopped reading Iron Man for similar reason; it just wasn't fun seeing Stark rolling around in his bottle. I don't mind some realism, but I still want some FUN and REAL HEROS!

The villains can get too watered down as well. Bad guys like Lex Luthor and The Joker were all bad - but we were given an explanation of why they originally went off track, usually some personal tragedy. (Like losing your hair.)

There were also the villains who were just born bad, like Darkseid. And, thanks to the Comics Code, they always lost or, at worst, were in stalemate.

Unfortunately, that brings us to the villain as victim, such as John Black, in Planetary/Batman - he just can't help it. Even Darkseid got the "poor god, it's lonely at the top" treatment in some recent stories.

I'm more familiar with The Legion stories, and it seems a lot of the villains there need to be understood. More pitied than censured. I could do with some just plain awful rotter type of villains. Maybe the current viallain (Universo) will prove to be an all-out stinker.

It's a fine line between a villain (or hero) who is interesting because he has more than one facet to his character and "Everyman", a bland or confusing mix of good/bad/victim/etc.

Pig Iron, you want to know why comics aren't being sold to kids? Because they can't get them. For one, prices are too high. As a kid, I could afford a $.75 book or two. Not $2-$3. Secondly, I could grab a comic just about anywhere. Grocery stores, department stores, or the convenience store around the corner had them. Now, thanks to Diamond, you can only get them at comic shops. And most comic shops have for some reason been designed to keep out the "select few" who belong to the secret comic geek club.

Doc, the people you are talking to are probably in their 20's and 30's. That is part of the problem as comic sare written for adults almost exclusively. But do kids really want that/ I don't know that that is true.

And I've seen plenty of kids who get $100.00 allowances these days. So I don't know that money is truly an issue. And the parents I see in the comic shop never seem to complain when their kids buy a stack of 4 to 5 books and some game cards as well.

Availabilty may be a problem, yes. But I see it more as a content and reader problem.