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Ever feel like some writer is just pulling your chain? a story is continued-- and continued-- and CONTINUED-- in ways that do nothing but "force" readers to buy issue after issue of worthless junk, hoping the thing will continue, or end, but it doesn't?
I ran across an infuriating example this week while looking over some old VAMPIRELLA mags. Fans had been complaining about how the regular cast hadn't been seen in ages, and each new stand-alone story just got more trivial than the one before it. So they announced a "big" story was about to start soon-- watch for it! Here's what happened...
VAMPI #43 / Jun'75 -- "The Girl Called... Vampirella"
Bill DuBay started a mystery where Vampi was accused of murder. By the end of the 12-page episode, 2 of her friends were in the hospital, shot, maybe dead, and she was on the run from the law.
VAMPI #44 / Aug'75 -- "Blood For The Dancing Sorcerer"
Apart from 3 pages that formed a "framing sequence", this had NOTHING TO DO with the mystery started in #43! It's clear what happened-- writer-editor Bill DuBay was desperate not to lose fans, so a story by another writer was BUMPED from the previous issue so he could fool readers into thinking he was getting the book back on track. That story was run here-- as a "flashback".
VAMPI #45 / Sep'75 -- "Blood Wager"
Gerry Boudreau had been writing Vampi before DuBay came back-- this issue was the 2nd in a row that was presented as a "flashback"! This is unforgiveable. Artist Gonzao Mayo made his debut in this tale, which was far better written and better drawn than what DuBay was pushing on readers as the book's "new direction".
VAMPI #46 / Oct'46 -- "The Monster Called Vampirella"
In an otherwise ALL-REPRINT issue (I hate when they do that) they insterted a new 8-PAGE episode! It was made up almost entirely of narration bringing readers up on recent events. In effect, it didn't advance the plot AT ALL!! And "returning" artist Gonzalez was clearly too busy with other advertising jobs, as the work on this brief chapter was split between him and another artist! GEEZ.
VAMPI #47 / Dec'46 -- "Mother's Comign Home"
On the run from the cops, Vampi has a side adventure that has NOTHING to do with the ongoing mystery! Shades of "THE FUGITIVE"!! Another 8 pages (and an entire issue) wasted.
VAMPI #48 / Jan'76 -- "The Wonderworld..." title too stupid to repeat in full)
ANOTHER side adventure-- another 12 pages and another issue wasted. Some editors REALLY try their readers' patience-- don't they?? the cover of #48, like that of #43, has NOTHING to do with the story inside.
VAMPI #49 / Mar'76 -- "The Blood Red Queen Of Hearts"
The mystery is FINALLY solved in a "measely" 12 pages-- and the heroes don't even find out who was behind what was going on! This is not only BAD WRITING-- it's TRANSPARENTLY bad writing.
I know Harris Comics has had their hands on Vampi for the last 12 years or so, but if I were in charge, there's NO WAY I'd ever let this guy DuBay get near her adventures again.
Anyone else have similar examples they'd like to dredge up?
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I've noticed that very frequently - Brian Michael Bendis has been doing that on DAREDEVIL, and it's one of many things about his writing that's turned me away. The last DD storyline I liked was "Parts of a whole, and that was years ago.
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You read vampirella..I must 10 or 15 issues of it and I don't know that i read more than a few stories...
I bought it for the sexy Gonzalez pictures... I was a naughty 6 year old...
There are 2 types of long dragged out stories...
there is the subtext story that is a plot running behind the main storyline plot... Sandman, X-Men, Starman and JSA are just a few of the books that used this tool..they advance a greater "overall" storyline agenda while the main stories can still be arcs or even standalone issues...
Then there is what I affectionately call "Bendis" padding. Yes, Bend us over for more money so that you can tell a 2 issue tale in 6-8 issues...
Your Vampirella analogy is less Bendis padding or subtext padding than lets throw in some repro work and some cheap Filipino art back-up stories to save some money.. That was always a problem with anthology titles. You have more of an anthology title problem. And Vampirella was an anthology title most of the time. When they started carrying over stories into the next issue rather than wrapping them up in 8 pages. People eventually got sick of it and we no longer have more than a handful of anthology titles...
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Dragged-out stories, you ask?
How about the Spider-Man "clone saga"?
Or the X-Men books from the '90s right up until Grant Morrison, where Marvel actually bragged about having some many plots left unresolved?
Or the Superman books from the '90s right thru now, padding and drawing things out ad infinitum?
Spawn never really went anywhere with its idea that Spawn's dwindling powers were slowly killing him every time he used them. In fact, I don't even know if that book's still being published. What DID happen to it, anyway?
Captain America's "where's my shield?" gimmick under Waid. That whole thing just bored me to death.
There's probably more, but I'll have to dig to find them.
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quote:
Originally posted by profh0011:
VAMPI #48 / Jan'76 -- "The Wonderworld..." title too stupid to repeat in full)
See, now I *have* to know what the title is.
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"Your Vampirella analogy is less Bendis padding or subtext padding than lets throw in some repro work and some cheap Filipino art back-up stories to save some money... You have more of an anthology title problem. And Vampirella was an anthology title most of the time."
VAMPIRELLA started out as an anthology. Her own series didn't REALLY start until 8 issues in. they had sub-plots running from issue to issue when they started, but each issue tended to have a "complete" story. Later on, though, the page lengths got shorter, and "to be continued" began to crop up with unnecessary regularity.
The sad thing is, there were a large number of ASTONISHINGLY good artists working for Warren from time to time-- and every so often, you'd wonder why the "lead strip" wasn't getting the BEST artists-- OR writers-- working on it. For example, Bruce Jones, Nicola Cuti & Don McGregor never wrote her series-- Steve Englehart only did 3 episodes-- Archie Goodwin (considered by many to have done the best run) only did 8! I loved it when they'd do "book-length" stories, like the one with Gonzalo Mayo art that ran for 69 pages in a single issue-- but that happened very rarely.
The SUPERMAN storylines that came in the wake of the excellent "Death of Superman" and "Reign of the Supermen" only proved that "success breeds excess. NONE of them DESERVED to go on more than 6 weeks, maybe-- instead of being dragged out over 6 months or aeven a year. (Worse, in the case of the "electric" superman storyline, it was NEVER EXPLAINED how his powers changed-- or changed back, either!! Can you say "SLOPPY writing"??)
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Oh yeah, if you look over the 1st example I gave, that VAMPI story could have been cleared up in 2 issues-- TOPS!!! The "flashbacks" and "side" stories would all have worked far better had they each been allowed to stand on their own, instead of needlessly being wedged into the middle of that mess to falsibly try to create a bogus "epic".
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"See, now I *have* to know what the title is."
The Wonderworld Of Ambergris, Kato And Tonto, Too!
(You ASKED for it!!!)
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You should be fair to Bendis. His Daredevil is playing out with prelude not padding. Each story is finely crafted to build the drama and grow the characters.
Padding is 'Nuff Said, or 22 page fight scenes, or double-page spreads.
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quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Dragged-out stories, you ask?
How about the Spider-Man "clone saga"?
Or the X-Men books from the '90s right up until Grant Morrison, where Marvel actually bragged about having some many plots left unresolved?
Or the Superman books from the '90s right thru now, padding and drawing things out ad infinitum?
Spawn never really went anywhere with its idea that Spawn's dwindling powers were slowly killing him every time he used them. In fact, I don't even know if that book's still being published. What DID happen to it, anyway?
Captain America's "where's my shield?" gimmick under Waid. That whole thing just bored me to death.
There's probably more, but I'll have to dig to find them.
Agreed all except Spawn never read it...other than the Batman crossovers.
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quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Or the Superman books from the '90s right thru now, padding and drawing things out ad infinitum?
I agree. Fall of Metropolis (which primarily showed LexCorp vs. Cadmus issue after issue), Dead Again (each issue had Superman interrogate one of his adversaries to find out who's responsible, and it's revealed to be Brainiac even though he was eliminated as a suspect a few issues before), and Trial of Superman are good examples of this. I haven't read much Superman beyond this so I can't comment on the rest.
Titans Hunt and the repercussions from it seemed to be dragged out, too. Especially since it included the introduction of the Team Titans, and a War of the Gods crossover.
Another one I'm tempted to add is Swamp Thing's search for his replacement (in 1988). Each issue seemed to be about Swamp Thing finding a replacement, only to have the person end up surviving death, or being inappropriate for the role.
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quote:
Originally posted by Snapman:
quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Or the Superman books from the '90s right thru now, padding and drawing things out ad infinitum?
I agree. Fall of Metropolis (which primarily showed LexCorp vs. Cadmus issue after issue), Dead Again (each issue had Superman interrogate one of his adversaries to find out who's responsible, and it's revealed to be Brainiac even though he was eliminated as a suspect a few issues before), and Trial of Superman are good examples of this. I haven't read much Superman beyond this so I can't comment on the rest.
You haven't missed much. ElectroSupes, "King of the World," Dominus, Imperiex/"OWAW," General Zod, and President Lex have all been total jokes.
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"ElectroSupes, "King of the World," Dominus, Imperiex/"OWAW," General Zod, and President Lex have all been total jokes."
It seems like ever since Joey "Spider-Clone" Cavalieri took over the Superman titles, they come up with ONE story each year-- and drag it out until the NEXT year. (AAAAAAAAAUGH!)
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I thought Eddie Berganza was in control???
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The last three I mentioned were Berganza's messes. The rest were Cavalieri.
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Okay, ENOUGH with the damned SUPERMAN stories. I stopped buying the book a long time ago-- and clearly it's only gotten worse.
When Len Wein took over AMAZING SPIDER-MAN with issue #151, it seems to me he only had ONE story to tell-- involving the Spider-Clone's body dumped in a smokestack, a set of incriminating photos of it, Jameson possibly finding out Peter was Spider-Man, and Harry Osborn's psychiatrist becoming the 3rd Green Lantern (3rd in a set-- collect 'em all). Len took 3 YEARS to tell his "big story"-- and pretty much, EVERYTHING ELSE was just "filler". (And to add injury to insult, the "reunion" of 60's WONDER WOMAN art team Andru & Esposito was RUINED by Mike spending more time at the race track than at his drawing board-- so EVERY issue he inked during that period looked like CRAP!!!)
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The Superman Titles kill me. Such a great charcter but it's one dissapointment after another....lately all the titles suck.
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Yes. The Superman books achieved their peak of suckiness with the Berganza led: Gang "O" 4. Loeb, Schultz, Kelly, & Casey (plus a slew of "guest creators") Individually it could be argued that they are capable folks, but combined they created some of the most convoluted, ill conceived and difficult to follow stories in comic book history... Many of which are STILL being finished 3 years later. ![[eh?]](images/icons/confused.gif) From issue to issue you were never sure what exactly you were reading or looking at because from book to book you not only had a physically different looking cast of characters and (depending on the writers “take” on the character) you would find a heroic Superman, a confused Superman, or a weepy lost Superman. The styles of the creative teams, instead of complimenting each other did the exact opposite. Instead of working together they seemed to be competing with each other with the result being a fractured, unfinished look and feel to all the books. The final insult was that after Loeb left (arguably the only real “Star” of the bunch) and the books became a bit more independent of each other Berganza bitched that he gave the fans what they wanted (independent books) and they STILL weren’t happy… Insisting I guess that the Super-Star teams of Seagel, Kelly & Casey would be drawing the fans in by the droves. The guy is completely disconnected from reality… ![[...rassamnfrackin...]](graemlins/grumble01.gif)
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quote:
Yes.
The Superman books achieved their peak of suckiness with the Berganza led:
Gang "O" 4.
Loeb, Schultz, Kelly, & Casey (plus a slew of "guest creators")
I wouldn't say that. The level of quality now is no different than the level of quality during the Jurgens era. It only FEELS worse because Loeb and company were so heavily touted as being the guys who were going to save Superman.
quote:
The final insult was that after Loeb left (arguably the only real “Star” of the bunch) and the books became a bit more independent of each other Berganza bitched that he gave the fans what they wanted (independent books) and they STILL weren’t happy…
Insisting I guess that the Super-Star teams of Seagel, Kelly & Casey would be drawing the fans in by the droves.
The guy is completely disconnected from reality…
Carlin and Cavalieri would have said the exact same thing. After all, they along with Berganza are dead-set against DC rocking the boat and shaking up its ways of doing business, and Berganza's clearly inherited both men's worst editing traits.
quote:
From issue to issue you were never sure what exactly you were reading or looking at because from book to book you not only had a physically different looking cast of characters and (depending on the writers “take” on the character) you would find a heroic Superman, a confused Superman, or a weepy lost Superman.
The latter two being the most common.
And I'd like apologize for turning this thread into another "Superman's sucked since the mid-'90s" thread. That wasn't my intent when I originally posted.... ![[no no no]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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Was I the only one bothered by Lois's hair color change?
I miss the brown hair.
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"From issue to issue you were never sure what exactly you were reading or looking at because from book to book you not only had a physically different looking cast of characters and (depending on the writers “take” on the character) you would find a heroic Superman, a confused Superman, or a weepy lost Superman."
Well, that sure sounds like the complete OPPOSITE of the Mike Carlin run, doesn't it? (More SUPERMAN? AUGH!)
Re: LOIS-- why don't they just change her hair to platinum blonde and give her a BOOB job and be done with it? (Then she can have lunch with Pamela Anderson and Clark will have trouble telling them apart. Gee-- Pam USED to be such an ADOPRABLY cute girl-- BEFORE all that damned plastic surgery...)
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Me miss Lois' brown hair? I always wondered why they changed it from black to brown right after the 80s revamp. LOIS LANE IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BLACK HAIR. VIVA THE BLACK HAIR!!!1!!!11!! Pamela Anderson pre-surgery? I can't believe it. Do any public photos or images of this phenomenon exist? Oh! ...my "favorite" endless storyline was the X-books' Legacy Virus. What a clumsy HIV metaphor that was. And in the end, resolving it cost one of the best X-Men ever. Thus endeth the entire line of Rasputin.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rurouni KJS:
Oh! ...my "favorite" endless storyline was the X-books' Legacy Virus. What a clumsy HIV metaphor that was. And in the end, resolving it cost one of the best X-Men ever. Thus endeth the entire line of Rasputin.
There's been so many unresolved X-Men stories laying around for years that I couldn't keep track of them to save my life.
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"There's been so many unresolved X-Men stories laying around for years that I couldn't keep track of them to save my life."
In the 70's, it was typical for books to have a subplot or two running for a few issues, in addition to the main plot that month. Chris Claremont, however, instituted the incredible sloppiness of introducing several new sub-plots almost every issue he was writing... and promptly forgetting to EVER tie up HALF of them on a regular basis!!! (What was that guy's problem?????)
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"Pamela Anderson pre-surgery? I can't believe it. Do any public photos or images of this phenomenon exist?"
I've got quite a collection of PLAYBOY "photo-books"-- photos cover-to-cover (hey, who has time to read?), and in the late 80's, Pam was EXTREMEMLY popular. You could always count on a bunch of her pics turning up.
I was reminded of this the other week flipping channels when I ran across a documentary about her-- or was it about BAYWATCH ? (It was on E!) I happened to tune on briefly when they were talking about when she first got the job on HOME IMPROVEMENT-- before BAYWATCH came along. And I looked at her and thought-- MY GOD!!! She really WAS adorable back then. What the hell happened? (And I'm NOT just talkin' about the boob jobs, either!) She's almost completely unrecognizable, compared to the way she looked 14 years ago.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rurouni KJS:
Me miss Lois' brown hair? I always wondered why they changed it from black to brown right after the 80s revamp. LOIS LANE IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BLACK HAIR. VIVA THE BLACK HAIR!!!1!!!11!!
Absolutely! Hated Lois with the brown hair and was happy to see her back au naturelle.
There for a while, the same thing on Talia, but in reverse. She had brown hair originally, got switched for a while to black (by the Superman artists, maybe, since they were doing Lois with brown?), but now seems to be back to her regular brown.
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quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:
I've noticed that very frequently - Brian Michael Bendis has been doing that on DAREDEVIL, and it's one of many things about his writing that's turned me away. The last DD storyline I liked was "Parts of a whole, and that was years ago.
I was going to mention Bendis work on Daredevil and, in fact, his work on Powers as being examples of dragged out story telling.
Bendis has a tendency to write stories that are about 80% set up, ten percent "filler" and ten percent conflict and resolution.
Case in point: Nearly every "Powers" plot consists of the detectives probing a murder for issue upon issue, gathering random "clues" that never seem to add up to anything and then either (a) having the killer show up and confess; of (b) having the killer be killed himself by some sort of deus ex machina that never makes sense.
He's now working a similar limp mojo in "Daredevil." Case in point would be the recently concluded "Owl" storyline. Most of the story was a set up about how the Owl was taking over the city's drug trade and what Daredevil planned to do about it. In the meantime there were some subplots about DDs latest girlfriend and his "outing" as a superhero. Finally, the Owl was defeated and captured by....the F.B.I.
One or two Bendis stories would make nice "change of pace" arcs, but all his stories are pretty much the same.
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Geoff Johns bitched about Marvel making him drag out his stories for more issues than he wanted to.
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Is that why he left Avengers?
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quote:
Originally posted by the G-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Darknight613:
I've noticed that very frequently - Brian Michael Bendis has been doing that on DAREDEVIL, and it's one of many things about his writing that's turned me away. The last DD storyline I liked was "Parts of a whole, and that was years ago.
I was going to mention Bendis work on Daredevil and, in fact, his work on Powers as being examples of dragged out story telling.
Bendis has a tendency to write stories that are about 80% set up, ten percent "filler" and ten percent conflict and resolution.
Case in point: Nearly every "Powers" plot consists of the detectives probing a murder for issue upon issue, gathering random "clues" that never seem to add up to anything and then either (a) having the killer show up and confess; of (b) having the killer be killed himself by some sort of deus ex machina that never makes sense.
He's now working a similar limp mojo in "Daredevil." Case in point would be the recently concluded "Owl" storyline. Most of the story was a set up about how the Owl was taking over the city's drug trade and what Daredevil planned to do about it. In the meantime there were some subplots about DDs latest girlfriend and his "outing" as a superhero. Finally, the Owl was defeated and captured by....the F.B.I.
One or two Bendis stories would make nice "change of pace" arcs, but all his stories are pretty much the same.
And yet this guy, even though his writing is piss-poor, is constantly being praised to the skies as one of the best writers in the field. Would someone please tell me what's wrong with this picture? Why is this guy getting so much hype when there's writers out there who could write rings around him without breaking a sweat?
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quote:
Originally posted by zahl:
Is that why he left Avengers?
Johns is leaving Avengers because he is now exclusive with DC.
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quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
And yet this guy, even though his writing is piss-poor, is constantly being praised to the skies as one of the best writers in the field. Would someone please tell me what's wrong with this picture? Why is this guy getting so much hype when there's writers out there who could write rings around him without breaking a sweat?
I wouldn't exactly call his writing "piss-poor," but there is definitely better writers out there. I really enjoy his Ultimate work, they're all just very fun reads.
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One of the X-men subplots involved a Russian guy with an eye patch talking to a subordinate. It don't think it was picked up on until Claremont left the book, almost 10 years later.
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quote:
Originally posted by woodstock:
quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
And yet this guy, even though his writing is piss-poor, is constantly being praised to the skies as one of the best writers in the field. Would someone please tell me what's wrong with this picture? Why is this guy getting so much hype when there's writers out there who could write rings around him without breaking a sweat?
I wouldn't exactly call his writing "piss-poor," but there is definitely better writers out there. I really enjoy his Ultimate work, they're all just very fun reads.
To each his own. I've tried his stuff and I was bored silly. But that may just be me.
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As far as what I've read of Bendis's work, I think he's doing a great job on Ultimate Spider-Man.
As far the other stuff, I agree as far Daredevil is concerned. The pace is much too slow on that book.
I looked at the first issue of Alias, but couldn't get past the art. If the pacing on that is like that of DD, I'm not missing much.
And I read the first issue of Powers after buying it from Bendis at a convention in Pittsburgh a couple of years ago. It didn't really do a hell of a lot for me, but I'll give him credit; he loves the medium. That enthusiasm encouraged me to give the book a try.
But if Marvel is making their writers drag out the stories for the sake of marketing a future TPB, they are missing the point. There is nothing wrong with having more than one story in a TPB.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 128
100+ posts
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OP
100+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 128 |
Anybody remember Denny O'Neil's run on IRON MAN ? There were quite a few fill-ins after Michelinie & Layton left... and somewhere along the line, Denny's was never announced as the "new regular writer". It just seemed to happen. He was hooked up with Luke McDonnell (who many have said couldn't draw) and Steve Mitchell (who made Klaus Janson look good by comparison). After doing about 15 consecutive issues, the art team really started to "click". But in the meantime...
The first thing Denny did was start to put Tony Stark through HELL. This led to his falling off the wagon. Which led to his entire life spiralling COMPLETELY out of control. Denny took THREE WHOLE YEARS to tell this damnable storyline!!! By the time he was through (coincidence or fate?) Mitchell's dark inks had been replaced by Akin & Garvey, which really lightened the mood, and exactly at the climax of the story, Mark Bright arrived with the new red-and-SILVER "Japanese robot"-style suit of armor. WHOA. (And the guy who caused all the problems in the first place COMMITTED SUICIDE! Sheesh.) We got to see (more or less) Tony put his life and company back together-- but Denny only stuck around for 7 more episodes, because, apparently, he just had NO INTEREST in writing about a creative genius at the top of his game-- only someone completely screwed up at the worst part of his life.
Maybe instead of writing books involving heroic ideals, Denny should be writing soap-operas-- or even HORROR stories? You know-- the kind where, if you think YOUR life is completely F***ED, check THIS out, and it'll make you feel good by comparison.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13
1 post
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1 post
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13 |
Longest dragged out storyline in my book is whatever is happening in JSA today. Dangling plot threads everywhere, and then suddenly everything is going to be resolved in one huge story putting everything (and everyone even remotely associated with the team) into one completely lame and illogical package.
--Rich
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203 |
Bendis' work on Daredevil is great. Each arc is itself part of an ongoing arc. So the end of Underboss seemed to go nowhere because it had threads picked up in Out. Out led to Lowlife, which has led to Hardcore and so on. The only problem is Marvel insisting on labeling every 5 issues as an arc.
As for the FBI arresting the Owl, that's part of the story. Daredevil helped the FBI by giving them an opening, making the Owl vulnerable. Daredevil stories have been like this since Miller. And I'm very happy.
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