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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
I was disapointed to hear on CNN that public officials danced around his body and shouted Shia oaths.
That's a little much, yeah.
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Jeremy : love the video!  Klinton, Mxy, Phil, Rex: I do have mixed feelings about the death penalty because: As stated, it does not bring back those whom the murderer killed. Innocent people have been killed by death penalty, I am certain on this. It is another murder.. doesn't the bible state that we shall not kill? The only time murder is truly justified is in self defense.... On the other hand, how many times have you read that a rapist or murderer was paroled, and then raped or killed or both shortly after his release from prison? And I am certain many murderers - rapists get really good lawyers, beat the rap... and kill and rape again. So, yeah, the death penalty does help protect society. But, now? I don't feel ANYTHING about Saddam being dead. He's probably inspired many other rats that want to be like him. Killing him DOES rid the world of him, but indeed, life does imitate art.. there are too many villains still loose, waiting to kill and take Saddam's place... and no one, even if Superman himself were real.. can catch them all. He is dead. He is a martyr, yes... but, alive? Terrorists may well have kidnapped MANY to bargain for his release. Killing Saddam is like cutting off but one of many heads on the hydra.. there will always be more to worry about. Vigilance is a never ending process.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
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Rapists and murderers should be put in prison for the rest of their lives. Thats what should be done.
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Quote:
rex said:
Rapists and murderers should be put in prison for the rest of their lives. Thats what should be done.
To be surrounded by their peers. I can think of few harsher punishments than to be surrounded by reflections of the worst aspects of yourself.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
rex said:
Rapists and murderers should be put in prison for the rest of their lives. Thats what should be done.
To be surrounded by their peers. I can think of few harsher punishments than to be surrounded by reflections of the worst aspects of yourself.
That...and rapists tend to get a taste of thier own medicine in confinement...which I think is justice unto itself.
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I honestly don't care what happens to them behind bars, I just want them taken out of society.
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Quote:
rex said:
Rapists and murderers should be put in prison for the rest of their lives. Thats what should be done.
Serial killer Ted Bundy escaped jail -- twice!-- and killed again.
And he's not the only one.
Several times a year I watch the news and see prison breaks, with photos of escaped convicts the public is to be on the lookout for.
Again:
The death penalty is the only way you can guarantee a killer will never kill again.
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Thats a problem with prison security.
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Quote:
rex said:
Thats a problem with prison security.
That's a laughable response.
Have one of these escapees rape or kill one of your family, and see how coldly philosophical and idealistic you'd remain about it.
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It would still be a problem with prison security.
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Quote:
rex said:
It would still be a problem with prison security.
That's like arguing we should be able to smoke at the gas pump, and if the station blows up, then it's the gas station's fault for not making the place safe from flames.
Prison breaks are a problem any place there are prisons. It's not because the prisons are shabbily guarded. It's because prisoners are very rough characters, who take any opportunity they can get.
Here's an escape just today:
MANHUNT: CONVICT ESCAPES, COP-KILLER'S WIFE SOUGHT
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Quote:
klinton said:
That's a decidely Canadian opinion you have there, Rex.
He lives in Oregon...isn't that Canada south?
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Quote:
rex said:
It would still be a problem with prison security.
That's like arguing we should be able to smoke at the gas pump, and if the station blows up, then it's the gas station's fault for not making the place safe from flames.
Prison breaks are a problem any place there are prisons. It's not because the prisons are shabbily guarded. It's because prisoners are very rough characters, who take any opportunity they can get.
Here's an escape just today:
MANHUNT: CONVICT ESCAPES, COP-KILLER'S WIFE SOUGHT
I like how you bring up completely unrelated topics just to try to prove me wrong. Nothing you say will change the way I think. For that to happen I have to have some amount of respect for you. That will not happen anytime soon so just stop trying.
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Quote:
rex said:
I like how you bring up completely unrelated topics just to try to prove me wrong. Nothing you say will change the way I think. For that to happen I have to have some amount of respect for you. That will not happen anytime soon so just stop trying.
Hey, y'know, thanks for sticking to the issue and not making it personal...
Forgive me, but I believe in punishing criminals, and not waxing philosophic about their rights after they've committed the most vicious of crimes. I believe in eliminating their threat to the public. Permanently.
I reserve my sympathy and defense of rights for the victims, not the murderers.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Here's an escape just today:
MANHUNT: CONVICT ESCAPES, COP-KILLER'S WIFE SOUGHT
I hope both of those assholes get the needle for that.
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Quote:
Pig Iron said:
Quote:
klinton said:
That's a decidely Canadian opinion you have there, Rex.
He lives in Oregon...isn't that Canada south?
I find this whole discussion amusing. This'd be the first time I've been on the opposite side in a debate in here. I'm usually the 'uber liberal'.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:...
Forgive me, but I believe in punishing criminals, and not waxing philosophic about their rights after they've committed the most vicious of crimes. I believe in eliminating their threat to the public. Permanently.
I reserve my sympathy and defense of rights for the victims, not the murderers.
Not everyone sentenced to death was a murderer though. You can always increase security at a prison but a death sentence can never be undone once carried out.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
The death penalty is the only way you can guarantee that a killer will never kill again. I'm very much for it.
And how many wrongly convicted people have been put to death over the years?
The simple answer is that we will never know, and thats what makes the death penalty wrong!
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
The death penalty is the only way you can guarantee that a killer will never kill again. I'm very much for it.
And how many wrongly convicted people have been put to death over the years?
The simple answer is that we will never know, and thats what makes the death penalty wrong!
That is the only arguement that I can come up with regarding the death penalty. I also feel standards for charging someone with death should be standard and not up to judges and every other jury...why does soemone who commits double murder get death at one trial and life at another???it isn't standard for similar crimes and if a punishment isn't standard then I think it shouldn't be done at all....
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
On the other hand, how many times have you read that a rapist or murderer was paroled, and then raped or killed or both shortly after his release from prison?
Then don't parole them.
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Serial killer Ted Bundy escaped jail -- twice!-- and killed again.
And, because he was probably about to get the death penalty, he had nothing to lose. Thanks for proving my point.
Quote:
Several times a year I watch the news and see prison breaks, with photos of escaped convicts the public is to be on the lookout for.
This is problem with prison security measures, not an argument for death penalty.
Note that Bundy's escapes happened because he was left unsupervised. What's the best solution for dumb guards? Why, killing more people, of course.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Quote:
rex said:
Thats a problem with prison security.
That's a laughable response.
How so?
I dont often agree with rex, but if a prisoner is that dangerous, they should be held more securely.
In an age of video survielance and other security devices, prison escapes are down to the failure of those in charge to implement proper security measures, and is fuck all to do with how tough or wiley the prisoners are!
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Killing people won't take the fear away, Wondy. Nothing will.
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
And, because he was probably about to get the death penalty, he had nothing to lose. Thanks for proving my point.
Okay, that's just fucking stupid. You can't prove that's the reason he killed. It's more logical to assume, based on typical criminal response, that he murdered because he was on the lamb in the first. Criminals who have escaped prison continue to kill even though they weren't going in for the death penalty.
In the case of Saddam, I already said that he probably wouldn't gain momentum ever again, but people like Manson, Bundy, Dahmer, and Gein, they're all predators. More than that, they're fucking legends. They would be able to absorb a following with almost no trouble. People like Saddam could only work through politics. And considering his exploits, no one would have ever allowed him that opportunity again.
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I really think this is a huge backfire on the 'popular opinion'front. The overall feel from the press coverage is one of disapointment at the whole event.
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Quote:
klinton said:
I really think this is a huge backfire on the 'popular opinion'front. The overall feel from the press coverage is one of disapointment at the whole event.
You mean, disappointment that Saddam was killed?
I'm not sure I see your point. Can you clarify?
If you mean the dramatic episodic daily trickle of new twists in Saddam's capture and trial, then yeah, I agree. To some degree it was celebrity gossip disguised as news.
Like covering the daily twists in the O.J. Simpson trial, or Tonya Harding, or Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill, or Gary Condit/Sandra Levy (interrupted by 9/11, a true event replacing filler news), Mark Foley, Britney Spears and her ex-husband, etc. It's all lurid fluff, disguised as news.
These episodic soap-operas take on the appearance of news but give no real information.
And the news networks love them, because they're stories that are easy to follow, and people come back and watch them every night.
My disappointment with Saddam's trial is that there was very little overview of the full magnitude of his reign of terror. It was more Saddam refusing to recognize the court's authority, or witnesses getting in Saddam's face and calling him a murderer.
After Saddam's execution was announced last night, I saw an Iraqi interviewed, who said Saddam had murdered twenty-seven members of his family.
Twenty seven !
In one family.
In his 24 year reign, Saddam is estimated to have killed between 750,000 and 1 million people, being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq.
I only see the magnitude of his slaughter being discussed in broadcast news now that his trial is over.
I wonder if news in Europe, South America and elsewhere is as focused on personalities in the news as it is in the U.S., in a play for ratings, rather than on the more significant facts of events reported.
Likewise, I blame the media to a large extent for the cultural rift in the U.S., because a broadcast clash between polar extremes of conservative/liberal, or black/white, etc., makes for a good onscreen catfight.
Which brings in viewers while creating a sense of greater division than likely exists among more typical conservatives/liberals, blacks/whites, etc., than are shown for the sake of info-tainment and ratings.
But the perception that the nation is more divided than it truly is, consistently broadcast, gradually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and makes it truly become that way.
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I brew beer now. Brewing beer is cool.
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Quote:
rex said:
Thats a problem with prison security.
That's a laughable response.
How so?
I dont often agree with rex, but if a prisoner is that dangerous, they should be held more securely.
In an age of video survielance and other security devices, prison escapes are down to the failure of those in charge to implement proper security measures, and is fuck all to do with how tough or wiley the prisoners are!
I just saw this as a flippant response by rex, that bypassed how dangerous many of these prisoners are, and how difficult it is to be vigilant in guarding them every minute. But no matter how good the court or prison security (as many incidents show, pretty much daily, and no doubt not just in the U.S.) no matter how vigilant, these convicts will occasionally escape to victimize others. And a guy who's in jail for life ? How much more likely that he'll have an opportunity to escape and kill again.
Rex's response is like saying when a soldier dies, it's not the enemy he fought that killed him, it's his lack of training.
Well, usually it's the enemy.
Sometimes even the best-trained and vigilant soldier (or guard) is overwhelmed by an enemy in a volatile circumstance, and it has nothing to do with training.
Alcatraz was arguably the most secure prison ever built, but prisoners escaped from there too. While they're alive, and there's a will to escape, they'll eventually scout out a weak link in even the most secure of chains.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Rex's response is like saying when a soldier dies, it's not the enemy he fought that killed him, it's his lack of training.
Well, usually it's the enemy.
Sometimes even the best-trained and vigilant soldier (or guard) is overwhelmed by an enemy in a volatile circumstance, and it has nothing to do with training.
You're a tool.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:...
Forgive me, but I believe in punishing criminals, and not waxing philosophic about their rights after they've committed the most vicious of crimes. I believe in eliminating their threat to the public. Permanently.
I reserve my sympathy and defense of rights for the victims, not the murderers.
Not everyone sentenced to death was a murderer though. You can always increase security at a prison but a death sentence can never be undone once carried out.
That's why there's an appeals process that takes 7 to 10 years, at least, to actually carry out the execution sentence.
Ted Bundy took closer to 20 years to be executed. Probably partly due to the fact that he was a lawyer who knew how to manipulate the process.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:...
Forgive me, but I believe in punishing criminals, and not waxing philosophic about their rights after they've committed the most vicious of crimes. I believe in eliminating their threat to the public. Permanently.
I reserve my sympathy and defense of rights for the victims, not the murderers.
Not everyone sentenced to death was a murderer though. You can always increase security at a prison but a death sentence can never be undone once carried out.
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
The death penalty is the only way you can guarantee that a killer will never kill again. I'm very much for it.
And how many wrongly convicted people have been put to death over the years?
The simple answer is that we will never know, and thats what makes the death penalty wrong!
That's very true. I can't dispute that.
But if you put away a guy for 15 or 20 years, and then set him free, you've still taken his life away.
I recall an incident I read about in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel back in 1993 or 1994. I graduated high school in 1981. And I read about a guy who'd been in prison in South Florida who'd been wrongfully convicted who was exactly the same age as me. He had hung out with two guys who were auto mechanics, who killed someone and pinned the blame on him. Several people, friends and girlfriends of the murderers, falsely testified that it was the innocent guy.
But 13 years later, one of the girlfriends who testified revealed that she lied, exposed the true story, and the innocent guy was set free after 13 years in jail. I couldn't help thinking about what I'd done in those years, and how this poor guy had to sit in prison all those years for a crime he didn't commit.
In addition, he'd been repeatedly raped in prison, and as a result had contracted HIV, so in his own words, his life was over, and he'd been released only so that he could die.
So, life in prison, or the death penalty. Both take away years and a life that can never be replaced.
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My personal favorite sentence from the New York Times’ Saddam obituary: “Rarely traveling abroad, and surrounded by often uneducated cousins, he had a limited worldview.” No shit.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Okay, that's just fucking stupid.
:-[
Quote:
You can't prove that's the reason he killed. It's more logical to assume, based on typical criminal response, that he murdered because he was on the lamb in the first. Criminals who have escaped prison continue to kill even though they weren't going in for the death penalty.
You forget I'm not making, shit what's the word, I'm not claiming to have the last word, Pary. I'm not you. I can't prove that's the reason he killed? WHOA!
I'm making a simple point, for fucking out loud. Nothing to lose, might as well kill. End. I thought that was pretty clear, but, you know, there's always one.
Incidentally, when I googled "whoa" I got this:
YOU'RE WELCOME.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
That's very true. I can't dispute that.
But if you put away a guy for 15 or 20 years, and then set him free, you've still taken his life away.
That's some fucked up logic you got yourself there, boy.
Ask anyone: Would you rather get falsely imprisoned for 15 years, or falsely sentenced to death? Really, go out there and ask people. Git! You'll be shocked by the answer. You'll come back here, you'll google "whoa", you'll say "hmmm, I wish Jennifer Connelly would show more labia", you'll google "keanu", and then you'll post his picture here with the words "W H O A".
Quote:
I recall an incident I read about in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel back in 1993 or 1994. I graduated high school in 1981. And I read about a guy who'd been in prison in South Florida who'd been wrongfully convicted who was exactly the same age as me. He had hung out with two guys who were auto mechanics, who killed someone and pinned the blame on him. Several people, friends and girlfriends of the murderers, falsely testified that it was the innocent guy.
But 13 years later, one of the girlfriends who testified revealed that she lied, exposed the true story, and the innocent guy was set free after 13 years in jail. I couldn't help thinking about what I'd done in those years, and how this poor guy had to sit in prison all those years for a crime he didn't commit.
In addition, he'd been repeatedly raped in prison, and as a result had contracted HIV, so in his own words, his life was over, and he'd been released only so that he could die.
So, life in prison, or the death penalty. Both take away years and a life that can never be replaced.
So are you saying that... if you kill someone who was wrongly convicted... it's a mercy killing?
We falsely accused someone? Well, heck, we might as well kill 'em!
(Disclaimer: The above is an exaggeration of Wondy's post. I don't mean to say that he actually said that. Also, I don't want to kill him.)
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Wonder boy has gone too far off the logic scale. He's just trolling to troll.
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Incidentally, when I googled "whoa" I got this:
YOU'RE WELCOME.
I think there should be more debates of this nature! 
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
That's very true. I can't dispute that.
But if you put away a guy for 15 or 20 years, and then set him free, you've still taken his life away.
That's some fucked up logic you got yourself there, boy.
Ask anyone: Would you rather get falsely imprisoned for 15 years, or falsely sentenced to death? Really, go out there and ask people. Git! You'll be shocked by the answer. You'll come back here, you'll google "whoa", you'll say "hmmm, I wish Jennifer Connelly would show more labia", you'll google "keanu", and then you'll post his picture here with the words "W H O A".
Quote:
I recall an incident I read about in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel back in 1993 or 1994. I graduated high school in 1981. And I read about a guy who'd been in prison in South Florida who'd been wrongfully convicted who was exactly the same age as me. He had hung out with two guys who were auto mechanics, who killed someone and pinned the blame on him. Several people, friends and girlfriends of the murderers, falsely testified that it was the innocent guy.
But 13 years later, one of the girlfriends who testified revealed that she lied, exposed the true story, and the innocent guy was set free after 13 years in jail. I couldn't help thinking about what I'd done in those years, and how this poor guy had to sit in prison all those years for a crime he didn't commit.
In addition, he'd been repeatedly raped in prison, and as a result had contracted HIV, so in his own words, his life was over, and he'd been released only so that he could die.
So, life in prison, or the death penalty. Both take away years and a life that can never be replaced.
So are you saying that... if you kill someone who was wrongly convicted... it's a mercy killing?
We falsely accused someone? Well, heck, we might as well kill 'em!
(Disclaimer: The above is an exaggeration of Wondy's post. I don't mean to say that he actually said that. Also, I don't want to kill him.)
My point is clear enough, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it: This guy's life is destroyed, regardless of the fact that he's been released. Life in prison, or the death penalty, his life is destroyed. He's now incapable of having a career. And exonerating him at this point doesn't free him of HIV or give him his life back.
It's like asking someone if they'd rather freeze to death or burn to death. Well, either one is about as terrible.
My point is, the option of being set free after false imprisonment isn't exactly making this guy's day. You and rex, and MEM are saying that reversing a false conviction gives a person their life back. My point is that: no, it doesn't. And for some, that might be a fate equal to or worse than the death penalty.
But hey, thanks for the Jennifer Connolly photo.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 298
200+ posts
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200+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 298 |
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
My point is clear enough
No it isn't.
The above post was brought to you by Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.
Rob said:
finding out there are two more homasexuals on this board is actually like finding out gravity works
CJ said: I liked you better when you were drunk.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,020 Likes: 31
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,020 Likes: 31 |
Quote:
crazy drunk reax said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
My point is clear enough
No it isn't.
Well, have another beer then, it'll be clearer !
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 298
200+ posts
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200+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 298 |
The above post was brought to you by Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.
Rob said:
finding out there are two more homasexuals on this board is actually like finding out gravity works
CJ said: I liked you better when you were drunk.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
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Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
An interesting point by a girl on another forum:
[quote="sharnofshade"]
By killing Saddam, we as a global people have made a mockery of disapproving of murder on ANY scale.
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And also: I use the same argument against people supporting the death penalty as I do against people who are cruel to animals. I don't trust people who are cruel to animals not to be cruel to people too. And I will not ever trust a government or people who allow the murder of 'criminals' not to turn that mind-set on the innocent and the different and the weak. You might think that Saddam 'deserved' to die. But remember that now, right this second, there are people who believe that blacks 'deserve' to die. That gays 'deserve' to die. That anyone who does drugs 'deserves' to die. You can try to get into the nitty gritty of what makes one 'deserving' of death. Or you can realise that killing people is wrong, and that not being repelled by the idea of someone, ANYONE being killed, is an unhealthy and inefficient mindset.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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