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S
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Jean Loring is ALIVE!!!!!!! Strangely enough my first thought is that she and Ray will wind up back together. So...someone is using Slipknot's M.O? Yet Slipknot is not only incarcerated but missing an arm as well. Superman, afraid of passing up any possible lead pursues the Suicide Squad lead while poor Lois, who is currently shot up in one of the current Super-books, gets an interesting piece of correspondence fingering her not only as Superman's wife but as the next victim. Damn! I was so hoping Jimmy would get the honor! Bats quickly dismisses the Suicide connection (which I think would have been cool) as does Ollie. I find it interesting that Hal isn't allowed to intercede by the Almighty Higher Power. I would like an explanation of the reasoning behind that little tidbit though I doubt we'd get any more than the chestnut that God works in strange and mysterious ways. Nice bit of foreshadowing with Ollie's comment to Hal about when he was "coming back". Tim takes a day off with dear ol Dad...methinks Tim's Dad has about an issue to live. I twould, afterall, make things so much simpler in the Bat-books if Tim's Dad bit the big one plus Tim would have an excuse to become as big a nutcase as Bruce!
Overall this issue is character driven with very little actual plot advancement. A quick and easy read unlike the previous issues. Does that make it not as good? Not really. It's the issue that allows the readers to reflect and ponder as opposed to our minds constantly racing to figure all of this out by series' end. Who do I think is behind all this? I really don't know yet but I'm having a real problem w/ 'ol Digger being spotlighted as he is. I could never believe he's the mastermind behind all this...but his son..? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree and all that! We just may get a brand new spanking super-villain out of all this! If this happens to be the case then I don't see 'ol Digger living past the concluding chapter either.
-----once over and I wonder if the kid is going to call himself Colonel Frisbee or what?----------
Last edited by LLance; 2004-09-15 8:14 PM.
-----once over and twice twisted---------
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It's what anime lovers call a "filler episode." Not much happens, but we get a ton of exposition that helps further our understanding of the player(s) involved. Most people hate that, but I love seeing it every now and then. Gives us time to soak shite in.
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My one problem is that Superman is mentioned as being "the very top."
Now I know fanboyism won't allow Superman or Batman to be considered in any other way, but this is analytical detective work we're talking about here. The Metal Men? The Ray? The Atom? Matamorpho? Animal Man? Every single one of those characters are top notch minds. I'm not saying Supes is someone to sleep on, but neither are any of these other guy. And combined?
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Actually, it always bothered me that DC, at least since Byrne and probably before, forgot how smart Superman should be.
Think about it: On Krypton, both his father and grandfather were the greatest scientists their world had to offer. His father was able to deduce, when no one else could, that Krypton was going to explode. And his father didn't have superpowers. Are we to believe that Kal-el didn't inherit at least some of his family's brainpower?
Furthermore, when you consider some of the creative ways that Superman has used his powers over the years, he demonstrates very deep understandings of chemistry, physics, biology and other sciences. For example, in his battle with the Elite, Superman didn't just hit them all until they fell over. He used his powers to attack them in ways that required him to figure out things about the Elite's anatomy that would have stymied most forensic teams.
He's also demonstrated an advanced ability with robotics and other technological marvels, and can operate various alien technologies with ease.
Someone with that much brainpower is going to be able to do some damn fine detective work.
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I totally agree that Supes is one smart cookie. Pre-crisis he was often referred to as "doing experiments" in the Fortress as a conceivable excuse for him to be out of a storyline. He dabbled in robotics, krptonite antidotes, and a process to reverse the shrinking of Kandor among other things. He is very much his Father's son but this aspect of the Man of Steel has always been downplayed due to his astounding superpowers. I'm sure most any scientist would probably make a good detective with their analytic mind. Also many good writers have depicted Superman as a hero who is able to think quickly on his feet to resolve any given situation especially one where his powers are gone or of no use.
-----once over and twice twisted---------
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Let's also not forget that Clark works as an investigative reporter.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Actually, it always bothered me that DC, at least since Byrne and probably before, forgot how smart Superman should be.
Think about it: On Krypton, both his father and grandfather were the greatest scientists their world had to offer. His father was able to deduce, when no one else could, that Krypton was going to explode. And his father didn't have superpowers. Are we to believe that Kal-el didn't inherit at least some of his family's brainpower?
Actually, Kal-El not inheriting at least some of his father's and grandfather's brainpower is VERY conceivable. Smart parents and grandparents do not ensure a child will be smart. Same thing with proficiency. My dad is a master mechanic. I'm far from it.
Also, he could simply take after his mother.
Plus, even if we say that Kal-El inherited his father's potential, that's not the same thing as saying he inherited his father's knowledge. In other words, Superman would need a whole lotta experience in the field of science to work on his father's level, experience that he just doesn't have.
Sure he may dabble, but The Atom (and others mentioned) are DOCTORS and MASTERS in the field of science. Ray Palmer works with dwarf matter and is a college professor. Are you really trying to say that you believe Superman can best these guys in analysis?
Quote:
the G-man said:
Furthermore, when you consider some of the creative ways that Superman has used his powers over the years, he demonstrates very deep understandings of chemistry, physics, biology and other sciences. For example, in his battle with the Elite, Superman didn't just hit them all until they fell over. He used his powers to attack them in ways that required him to figure out things about the Elite's anatomy that would have stymied most forensic teams.
He's also demonstrated an advanced ability with robotics and other technological marvels, and can operate various alien technologies with ease.
Someone with that much brainpower is going to be able to do some damn fine detective work.
If we take everything that's been written about the character, he can understand and talk to mermaids and has a super-resilient face that allows him to change his own facial features and disguise himself as another person.
I believe your examples help prove my point. There are limits to how he should be written, in order to keep some semblance of reason to the character's general outline. Superman spends his time as an investigative reporter. Having him build super-powered androids (without one heck of a cheat sheet) makes about as much sense as having The Flash or Wonder Woman do the same thing. Same with placing him above some of the world's greatest scientist, not to mention the universe's greatest escape artist himself.
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I got to stop in a book store today and read 3 and 4 while  wasn't looking. And as I suspected, the story is still trash.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
he could simply take after his mother.
Wasn't his mother ALSO a scientist?
Quote:
even if we say that Kal-El inherited his father's potential, that's not the same thing as saying he inherited his father's knowledge. In other words, Superman would need a whole lotta experience in the field of science to work on his father's level, experience that he just doesn't have.
Yes. However, he has superpowers. Powers that, on many occasions, have been shown to require a brain that thinks a lot better than the average guy.
Look at the way that, for example, Superman will use his X-ray vision to find some disease or something in a human body. Unless you know anatomy like a forensis pathologist, x ray vision doesn't help.
Quote:
Sure he may dabble, but The Atom (and others mentioned) are DOCTORS and MASTERS in the field of science. Ray Palmer works with dwarf matter and is a college professor. Are you really trying to say that you believe Superman can best these guys in analysis?
Maybe not. But my point was simply that Superman is often portrayed as a strong, but not smart, guy. I'm simply pointing out that he should be very, very smart.
Quote:
I believe your examples help prove my point. There are limits to how he should be written, in order to keep some semblance of reason to the character's general outline.
Why does he require those limits? He's Superman.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Wasn't his mother ALSO a scientist?
Depends on the author. Right now, Superman's not even sure which Krypton to believe in.
Quote:
the G-man said:
Yes. However, he has superpowers. Powers that, on many occasions, have been shown to require a brain that thinks a lot better than the average guy.
Better than the average guy is not better than Mr. Miracle.
Quote:
the G-man said:
Look at the way that, for example, Superman will use his X-ray vision to find some disease or something in a human body. Unless you know anatomy like a forensis pathologist, x ray vision doesn't help.
Again, I think that's a bad case of over-writing, but let's go with that.
Learning that much about the anatomy of the human body takes time and memory. Super-speed takes care of the time, but not the memory. To do as he does means he has learned more than most humans are even capable of learning about anatomy, chemistry, physics, engineering, etc., etc., etc. And those are just the sciences. Let's not even get into the aspect of detective work. Even if all that isn't too much for him to learn, even if he's spending a whole lotta time in the library at superspeed (a la Kid Flash), it SHOULD be too much for him to remember.
Otherwise, he's the smartest man on the planet.
Quote:
the G-man said:
But my point was simply that Superman is often portrayed as a strong, but not smart, guy. I'm simply pointing out that he should be very, very smart.
I agree with half your point. He is often portrayed as too dumb, absolutely true. I think the reason for that is to counterbalance the fact that he's also written as the most powerful being on the planet, sometimes in the universe. Overstating his intelligence is just as bad as understating it, though.
Quote:
the G-man said:
Why does he require those limits? He's Superman.
Every well written character has limits and faults. Not only would a Superman without limits become boring, but he would mute all other DC superheroes in record time.
Superheroes need limitations to make them believable and more human. The more perfect Superman gets, the less like us he becomes. The less like us he becomes, the less interesting. Lack of interest leads to lack of sales. Fear leads to... never mind, but you get my point.
Heck, even the God of the Bible gets jealous sometimes.
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I'm curious to know what happened to Slipknot post- having his arm blown off in Suicide Squad.
Firestorm had some great villains back in the day. Most of them have not resurfaced, or were killed in Suicide Squad while Ostrander was writing both books and could do what he liked with the characters.
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Anyone notice that Slipknot was incarcerated in Opal City. Doesn't The Shade live there? Hmmmm, I'd say that is another nod to my theory of The Shade.
If it isn't Shade then I think it's Luthor using a different hero or villain for every murder attempt. Such as Nightshade, the grey ghost or shadowthief for Sue, the same for Jean. Don't forget how many people Luthor brought to his side in Superman/Batman..I'm sure their are still allegiances. I don't think it could be Digger's son unless he had a bunch of tech help.
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I doubt it's Luthor. Too obvious. Too overused.
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Yeah, agreed..I hope not.
If it is a hero...and not a villain..I propose Ray Palmer, The Atom. Sue was talking on the phone when she was attacked. Jean was also talking on the phone. The Atom travels across phone lines. Batman asked who benefits. If any hero benfits it's Ray because he seems to have been mindwiped as well. ray is continuously shown to be stupid in the comics and he is a physicist for goodness sakes. I didn't see him in dr Light's memory..when he was in the memory of everyone else...Batman took his place in the actual event...I assume The Atom wasn't even there and they mind fucked him to be there when he really wasn't..which led to his divorce from Jean and fucked up his life..notice that Jean didn't die......The Atom was a better friend and could hav edealt with the situation better than Batman..so they made him the seventh man by default......they lied to him and abused his trust.
So, it is The Shade or The Atom.
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I must say that if its the Atom, I'll be very impressed with DC for the guts to make an oldtime character turn heel.
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Why should Superman be smart just cause his birth parents were?
Remember the fact that he was raised by a hick couple who would have had more of a bearing on the eductation he got!
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Quote:
Dave said:
I must say that if its the Atom, I'll be very impressed with DC for the guts to make an oldtime character turn heel.
Not the first time they've done that.
Dont forget both Hal Jordan & Hank Hall both went that way.
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Quote:
Dave said:
I must say that if its the Atom, I'll be very impressed with DC for the guts to make an oldtime character turn heel.
Not the first time they've done that.
Dont forget both Hal Jordan & Hank Hall both went that way.
Poorly handled in both cases, and Jordan will be returning as a good guy, but yes.
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Hank Hall's case made no sense. Suddenly he was smart enough to build a bomb? It would have made much more sense, and it would have been much cooler, if Monarch had been Captain Atom like he was supposed to be.
I don't think Hal wasn't handled correctly... he just wasn't handled for long enough. His role in Zero Hour was the only cool thing about the series, his fight against the JLA in a GL arc was very well done, and his alliance with Thanos in GL/Silver Surfer was interesting. Parallax got killed off too soon, that's all.
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Yes,both were handled badly but I was just saying its not brave of DC to do it with the Atom as they have done it before.
Hal returning to being good was not part of the original plan,thats just something thats happened as time went on and DC realised how many fans they had pissed off with their handling of the situation.
Something similar happened with Hank Hall as well,he wasnt turned good,but he was replaced as Monarch by a quantum clone of Captain Atom (or was it the original Captain Atom & the guy we knew was the clone? that was all left up in the air).
If the Atom goes bad,its handled well,and he stays bad,then finally DC can be lauded!
My only problem with it,even though I dont read comics anymore,is the total disregard DC has shown long term fans who were fans of characters from that era.
They ruined Hal then killed him,killed Barry,Killed Ollie,ruined Hank Hall then killed him (I think he's dead),Killed Arthur & totally fucked up Katar/Shayera.
Ok so some of these guys have been resurrected but thats purely because fan response was so negative,so to take the Atom & make him a villain would be just another poke in the eye to the silver age fan base!
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This is, Barry's death didn't nearly get the negative response that others have. Sales on his title had gotten so bad that they cancelled it just before Crisis had come out. And they handled the Flash's "return" in a tasteful and sensitive manner. Today, you almost never hear anything negative said about Barry's death and Wally picking up the mantle, unless it's those BASH people from the DC boards wishing that Barry would come back. And those conversations are never anti-Wally.
Hank Hall was DC back-peddling because Monarch's identity leaked. That was a dismal failure because it made no sense and everyone, including DC, knew it.
Hal was and is a beloved character and his "fall from grace" was rushed (Marz's admission) and poorly executed. Hopefully his return will serve to clean up the mess that has been his "life".
While I'm interested in who the murderer is, I won't be bothered if it turns out to be a hero, or even a well-established hero (which is my suspicion anyways). As long as it makes sense when the revelation comes.
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
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My biggest problem with it being the Atom would be the fact that Mark Waid (in JLA) and Frank Miller (in the otherwise excreable DKSA) both recently showed that you can make him interesting without much retconning.
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I think it's the Calculator.
I can see him playing both sides against the middle to make a name for himself.
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I agree. When thinking of the "Who benefits?", I kept coming back to the Calculator. He's been beaten by enough heroes to get past whatever they have to throw at him (that was his shtick after all), plus the increased hero activity this will bring about will bring him more business.
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I definitely think that Calculator is involved. Personally, I love the whole "Oracle for the villains" concept. Meltzer has played that beautifully! Unless it's another red herring (like Dr. Light and Slipknot), Issue #3 gives us reason to believe that Captain Boomerang killed Sue Dibny. Let me rehash the dialogue from panel 4 of page 32. Quote:
CB: Listen, before I go in -- you got any extra jobs that need... y'know...?
C: Digger, be serious. You're not exactly in your prime anymore.
CB: I can still toss 'em like I --
C: No one's gonna hire you, Digger. Not after what your did with --
CB: I was just trying to prove I still had it.
C: Yeah, well... if you wanna do that, you have to go bigger than--
CB: I need the money, Noah.
Coincidence? Maybe. But I still think that these guys know something about what's going on. Otherwise, why feature them so prominently?
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What I found most interesting, purely from an artistic point-of-view, was how Wonder Woman....while in the issue itself....was only seen on the cover. It probably means nothing, of course. But, I thought it interesting...
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I noticed that too. Also, all of the big three were prevalent in this issue, but the story itself was narrated by The Atom and Green Arrow. That means nothin', but I'm throwing it in there.
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Another intriguing issue.
However, as others have noted, for every several brilliant things that the writer does, he always seem to need to throw in one out of character or off-putting moment in every issue that completely takes me out of the story.
In this issue it was the narration where Green Arrow refers to Slipknot staring at Wonder Woman's "rack."
1. I don't want to read ANYone saying "rack" in a DC comic unless it's a vertigo book;
2. I just don't see Ollie using the word, especially not about WW or another woman he allegedly respects.
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Really? I could definitely see Ollie using the word "rack" and I saw it more as part of his analysis of Slipknot than as a sexual thing.
And as far as him using it in a DC book, well, the theme of the book is already adult, so I don't mind.
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Ollie's an older guy and a confirmed womanizer. Him saying "rack" is definitely in character.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
1. I don't want to read ANYone saying "rack" in a DC comic unless it's a vertigo book.
because they set the bar so high with the whole rape and murder thing.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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I just remembered in the 80's Black Canary got raped when Green Arrow was given the Vertigo treatment before the Vertigo treatment existed and Giffen and DeMatteis had to take her out of JLI and they got pissed at DC. How history repeats itself.
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As I said, every issue has at least one moment that, amidst some brilliant scenes, is jarring, off-putting and/or out of character.
Issue 2 was the rape. Issue 4 is, for me at least, Ollie discussing WWs "rack."
At least the rape, clumsily depicted as it was in some ways, provided a device to move the story and demonstrate why these characters behaved in such a way. The line about staring at Diana's rack added nothing to the story and seemed like it was there solely because Meltzer felt like making the obvious comment about how WW's costume shows a lot of cleavage
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A lot of others have made similar observations. I remember an issue of Young Justice where the boys are talking about not staring at Hippolyta's "eagle" because it made her mad.
Everyone's thinking it, G-Man. Meltzer's just saying it.
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Wanna know where my eyes went when I saw the cover?
It wasn't the lasso.
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Tommy Monaghan did more than stare at her rack...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009
Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
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Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Wanna know where my eyes went when I saw the cover?
It wasn't the lasso.
You were gawkin' at her tiara, weren't you?
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Chewy Walrus said:
Everyone's thinking it, G-Man. Meltzer's just saying it.
There's a point, however, where having a character in a story say what all the readers are "thinking," does nothing except take you out of the story.
This was, for me at least, that point.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
Joe Mama said:
You were gawkin' at her tiara, weren't you?
I think it's a good size for her and curved just right.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
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living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
". . .in that outfit?"
"Think clean thoughts, chum."
Ollie talking about her "rack" is perfectly in character. And the actual comment is that Slipknot wasn't staring at her rack, but at what was " below her waist and hanging twelve inches lower" which has got to be the most unintentionally funny line I've seen in quite a while.
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