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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I ignore your posts 90% of the time now. I only look at them really when you're quoting me.
Notice how r3x didn't take the time to quote his sources after I pointed out his stupidity.
I s'pose he's just tired of being own3d.
you want me to quote my sources on ignoring you?
There's a limited ammount of time I'm willing to spend on these posts, I have a life and (unlike you) sex. So I will pretty much treat this like a conversation and type what I read or saw on a documentary. If I need to go and look something up, then I quote the site with a good link.
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r3x has enough audacity to make the argument, but can't even quote the sources.
I gotta say, I'm less than surprised.
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
I don't have a problem with Catholics in general. It's you in particular. And when did you become Pope?
I don't need to be the papist to accurately point out what it means to be a Catholic, and what is furthermore required to be as such.
Last edited by Pariah; 2005-11-24 2:30 PM.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
r3x has enough audacity to make the argument, but can't even quote the sources.
I gotta say, I'm less than surprised.
Audacity? Because what I saw disagrees with what you saw?
I've played this game with you before. If I spend the next 20 minutes finding a page full of information to back up a documentary I saw in 2001, you will quote me and say "no its not."
Why would I waste the time?
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I don't remember any instances in which you pulled up any links. But I do know that, in this case, you aren't trying to cater to just me. You were trying to make the point to Darkknight.
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'Inclusive' name change needles N.S. tree growerA spruce tree grower in Nova Scotia isn't happy his 16-metre Christmas tree has become a "holiday" tree in Massachusetts.
Every fall, the province sends a tree to Boston as a thank-you gift for the help the New England city gave Halifax after the devastating 1917 ship explosion that levelled parts of Nova Scotia's capital.
The annual raising of Boston's offical "Holiday" tree on Boston Common, Friday, Nov. 18. (AP Photo/Michael Dwyer)
Officials with Boston's parks department decided it would be less offensive to some people and generally more inclusive if the word "Christmas" was dropped when they referred to the tree.
"A lot of people celebrate various religious holidays but also enjoy the lights, and we're trying to be inclusive," said Toni Pollak, Boston's commissioner of parks.
But Donnie Hatt, of Beech Hill, says he wouldn't have sent his 36-year-old white spruce to Boston this year if he knew it would be called a "holiday" tree. In fact, he'd rather see it run through the wood chipper in his backyard.
"I think it's a bunch of bullcrap," Hatt said Tuesday. "The States is never happy with the way things are. They always gotta change something.
"Ever since I was born, a tree was put up for Christmas, not for holidays, because if you're gonna do that you might as well put a tree up for Easter."
Not everyone in Boston agrees with the name change, either.
"A lot of us felt it wasn't right," said resident Ray Brochu. "How could they have the right to even change the name of a gift that was given to us from the people up there?"
Despite the controversy, the "holiday" tree will be placed in the Boston Common and the lights will be powered up on Dec. 1. This is the first time in a long while, if ever, I actually find Canada more level headed than the US on something
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It's now come to this. An attorney with a school board in Collier County, Florida felt compelled to write a memo to board members telling them that it was okay for teachers and staff to talk about Thanksgiving and other holidays. There was actually concern in some circles that the religious roots of the holiday, however tenuous, would make it off-limits for discussion in schools. School officials reminded staffers that Thanksgiving is more a secular holiday than a religious one, even if early celebrations involved saying prayers and giving thanks to a deity.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20051202/bs_usatoday/someretailersgivethewordchristmasanodQuote:
Some retailers give the word 'Christmas' a nod
By Theresa Howard, USA TODAY
The word "Christmas," nearly absent in marketing by major retailers in recent years, has been quietly revived by some stores. Retail expert Jim Lucas says they are responding to consumers' desire to make the holidays more personal - whether they observe Christmas, Hanukkah or Kwanzaa.
"They are saying this has become very commercial and they want to reclaim the holiday season and make it relevant," says Lucas, head of strategic planning at ad agency Draft Worldwide.
Chains also may be responding to a push by groups such as The Catholic League and American Family Association (AFA) against a generic "winter holiday."
The AFA cited 10 retailers (Kroger, Dell, Target, OfficeMax, Walgreens, Sears, Staples, Lowe's, J.C. Penney and Best Buy) for omitting Christmas in ads. It urges shoppers to go where Christmas is recognized.
"If you are going to make your earnings on the year because of Christmas, why should you be ashamed to call it Christmas?" asks AFA President Tim Wildmon. "People don't buy Thanksgiving gifts."
Lowe's got special note for hanging "holiday tree" banners on lots at its 1,175 stores. It pulled them after complaints. "We wanted to call a Christmas tree what it is," says spokeswoman Chris Ahearn.
The Catholic League says it scored a victory when it pushed Wal-Mart to have a Christmas category on its website, which had Kwanzaa and Hanukkah gift sections.
Other chains giving Christmas a nod:
Federated Department Stores - owner of Macy's and Bloomingdale's - is making sure its Christmas message is heard after consumer backlash last year over a supposed policy forbidding employees to wish shoppers "Merry Christmas."
A "Merry Christmas" ad thanking shoppers and employees is planned. The theme at Macy's New York store: Christmas in the City. Macy's TV ad features a big band tune mentioning Christmas.
"What we are doing is communicating our position," says spokesman Jim Sluzewski. "We never had a policy not to say 'Merry Christmas,' but clearly this is an issue of concern with a lot of people."
Ads for Dillard's department stores say: "Discover Christmas. Discover Dillard's." But the regional chain says that is not a political statement. "We do not believe it is our place as a retailer to politicize the season," says spokeswoman Julie Bull. "The sentiment expressed certainly applies to the other holidays celebrated this time of year, as well."
Christmas songs and trees are two of the things Victoria's Secret won't be bashful about in its lingerie show airing Tuesday on CBS. "The day is called Christmas. ... It all gears to Dec. 25," says Ed Razek, chief marketing officer.
Even so, Draft's Lucas says not to expect nativities or menorahs in ads. "The pendulum has swung a little away from PC. But if marketers get too specific or too religious, they'd be walking a weird line."
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Do you really care about this, Doc? Saturnalia is an orgy of consumption no matter what you call it. What does the 'gift wrapping' that Victoria's Secret sells have to do with the Nativity of Christ, The Oil of the Makabees or the Winter Solstice? The names just sound better than the Season to Eat, Drink and Fuck to Excess because it's too cold outside. 
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I think it's an interesting social trend. Wal-Mart, who is so entrenched in the Bible Belt, was afraid of putting up a Christmas section on their website but did so for Kwanzaa and Hanukkah. I just like looking at how weird and crazy people get with PC and such. Just because you're an uptight leftest doesn't mean I have to be an uptight conservative. 
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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It's starting to feel like you have to wish somebody a "Merry Christmas" or else when it concerns retail stores. Guess the religous right has found itself a nice little fundraiser this time of year 
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I didn't realize the phrase was so damn offensive.
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I don't see the big deal. Christmas is entrenched in pop culture, it will mean whatever people want it to mean.
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That's what I'm saying. Stores advertised Christmas as Christmas for decades, raking in the cash. Just because a few uptight people got their PC panties in a wad everyone's now going to act like they're not celebrating Christmas? Fuck that. It's been a commercial holiday for as long as I can remember. The religious aspects happen outside the stores, schools, and businesses and in the homes and churches.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
That's what I'm saying. Stores advertised Christmas as Christmas for decades, raking in the cash. Just because a few uptight people got their PC panties in a wad everyone's now going to act like they're not celebrating Christmas? Fuck that. It's been a commercial holiday for as long as I can remember. The religious aspects happen outside the stores, schools, and businesses and in the homes and churches.
I think its actually uptight people on both sides. Overly-PC people who complain about even the slight scent of religion, and overly-religious people who complain over the slightest impression of secularism in Christmas.
But as you said, its about money. Christmas/The Holiday season is a beast of its own now that feeds on money and nothing will effect that. Whether or not its called Christmas or X-mas won't effect how people celebrate in their homes or the products that they buy.
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Crying because stores aren't calling it Christmas anymore is just as whiny, methinks.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Crying because stores aren't calling it Christmas anymore is just as whiny, methinks.
I agree. As I said, Christmas is its own thing now. You can celebrate the religious aspects, or you can celebrate the whole "togetherness" angle.
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And thanks to MEM's new post title, I now see James Gandolfini as Santa with some gold chain, hairy chest, and sunglasses being flanked by a buncha John Gotti lookin' elves as they recreate the opening title shot in Reservoir Dogs.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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That's a Photoshop just waiting to happen.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
And thanks to MEM's new post title, I now see James Gandolfini as Santa with some gold chain, hairy chest, and sunglasses being flanked by a buncha John Gotti lookin' elves as they recreate the opening title shot in Reservoir Dogs.
The Christmas Mafia
and
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-12-02 7:24 PM.
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I don't think Political Correctness is the reason at all. It's marketing. Retailers want to bring non-Christians into the store. The continueing theme I keep harping on - It's really about the money! 
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
I didn't realize the phrase was so damn offensive.
It's not & I happen to use the phrase often this time of year. I just don't care for the O'reilly's & Falwell's crying over stores using Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. These people have any idea what Christmas is really about? Some of those retail stores do contribute to charities all year round. Is it that offensive to use Happy Holidays?
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
And thanks to MEM's new post title, I now see James Gandolfini as Santa with some gold chain, hairy chest, and sunglasses being flanked by a buncha John Gotti lookin' elves as they recreate the opening title shot in Reservoir Dogs.
Sorry. I am evil 
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
I didn't realize the phrase was so damn offensive.
It's not & I happen to use the phrase often this time of year. I just don't care for the O'reilly's & Falwell's crying over stores using Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. These people have any idea what Christmas is really about? Some of those retail stores do contribute to charities all year round. Is it that offensive to use Happy Holidays?
I would say it depends heavily on the context. Obviously, if 'Happy Holidays' is being used to the exclusion of 'Merry Christmas', then there's no emphasis on what Christmas is really about to Christians. You can't expect every Christian to take that lying down.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
I would say it depends heavily on the context. Obviously, if 'Happy Holidays' is being used to the exclusion of 'Merry Christmas', then there's no emphasis on what Christmas is really about to Christians. You can't expect every Christian to take that lying down.
I think that is part of what bothers me. Retail stores really shouldn't have anything to do with what Christmas is really about IMHO. I live in the Twin Cities along with a fairly diverse population. Most are celebrating Christmas, others are celebrating different holidays. It makes sense for stores around here to go with Happy Holidays. I'm all for treating everybody fair but this is crossing over into special treatment.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
I didn't realize the phrase was so damn offensive.
It's not & I happen to use the phrase often this time of year. I just don't care for the O'reilly's & Falwell's crying over stores using Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. These people have any idea what Christmas is really about? Some of those retail stores do contribute to charities all year round. Is it that offensive to use Happy Holidays?
I would say it depends heavily on the context. Obviously, if 'Happy Holidays' is being used to the exclusion of 'Merry Christmas', then there's no emphasis on what Christmas is really about to Christians. You can't expect every Christian to take that lying down.
But why?
Christians can say Merry Christmas and go to early morning Mass just fine without any non-christian's approval or understanding.
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This website questions whether X-Mas really is a Christian holiday: http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/xmas.htmlThough I'm happy with celebrating X-Mas as a continuation of Saint Nikolaus: http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/nikolaus.htm
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"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
It's starting to feel like you have to wish somebody a "Merry Christmas" or else when it concerns retail stores. Guess the religous right has found itself a nice little fundraiser this time of year
Not at all. You can say or not say what ever you want. If you don't want to agknoledge Christmas then don't but if you want me to do my CHRISTMAS shopping at your store don't treat the word as s swear word.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
...
Not at all. You can say or not say what ever you want. If you don't want to agknoledge Christmas then don't but if you want me to do my CHRISTMAS shopping at your store don't treat the word as s swear word.
As I said with the Captain, I do enjoy wishing folks a Merry Christmas. You guys can shop wherever you want of course. Jerry Falwell & his gang are also entitled to try to create pressure in my community so that the stores in my area meet Falwell's standards. (Those standards having nothing to do with how a store treats it's employees or how much they invest into a community but how big their Christmas displays are) I of course have the right to say what a bunch of bullshit that is.
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
This website questions whether X-Mas really is a Christian holiday:
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/xmas.html
Though I'm happy with celebrating X-Mas as a continuation of Saint Nikolaus:
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/nikolaus.htm
So we have the fire god Baal to thank for Christmas trees. I knew that many aspects of Christmas originated from Pagans but it's shocking just how much of it truly has little to do with Christianity.
They do a big Saturnalia celebration every year just outside my door & it's almost indistinguishable from a Christmas celebration except for open hearths on all the street corners.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
This website questions whether X-Mas really is a Christian holiday:
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/xmas.html
Though I'm happy with celebrating X-Mas as a continuation of Saint Nikolaus:
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/nikolaus.htm
So we have the fire god Baal to thank for Christmas trees. I knew that many aspects of Christmas originated from Pagans but it's shocking just how much of it truly has little to do with Christianity.
They do a big Saturnalia celebration every year just outside my door & it's almost indistinguishable from a Christmas celebration except for open hearths on all the street corners.
In Sweden, we eat "Christmas ham", which of course comes from the Vikings tradition of eating ham during Yuletide, and the myth about the pig that never died at Valhalla. Christmas is called "Jul" here as well.
My mum, who is originally from Slovakia and is Catholic (more or less I suppose), half-jokes about how her mother would turn in her tomb if she knew that her daughter ate ham during Christmas Eve.
"Batman is only meaningful as an answer to a world which in its basics is chaotic and in the hands of the wrong people, where no justice can be found. I think it's very suitable to our perception of the world's condition today... Batman embodies the will to resist evil" -Frank Miller
"Conan, what's the meaning of life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"
-Conan the Barbarian
"Well, yeah."
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Super Saturnalia to You All! 
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And a Merry Christmas to you.
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Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Captain Sweden said:
This website questions whether X-Mas really is a Christian holiday:
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/xmas.html
Though I'm happy with celebrating X-Mas as a continuation of Saint Nikolaus:
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/nikolaus.htm
So we have the fire god Baal to thank for Christmas trees. I knew that many aspects of Christmas originated from Pagans but it's shocking just how much of it truly has little to do with Christianity.
They do a big Saturnalia celebration every year just outside my door & it's almost indistinguishable from a Christmas celebration except for open hearths on all the street corners.
In Sweden, we eat "Christmas ham", which of course comes from the Vikings tradition of eating ham during Yuletide, and the myth about the pig that never died at Valhalla. Christmas is called "Jul" here as well.
My mum, who is originally from Slovakia and is Catholic (more or less I suppose), half-jokes about how her mother would turn in her tomb if she knew that her daughter ate ham during Christmas Eve.
Wait a tic. How exactly does a bunch of trees used only for decoration, with absolutely no symbolism ascerataing to the true intent of the holiday, mean that the practice itself "isn't Christian"?
I'm sure you think (for reasons I can't fathom) Christmas trees symbolize Baal to us Christians--But to us, they're just trees. Going to Church and worshipping God in special recognition of Christ's birth is infinitely more important to us on Christmas than pines. That and giving/sharing.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
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betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203 |
...well, he didn't say he was a self-important douchebag, which I would've agreed with...
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,797 Likes: 40
Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,797 Likes: 40 |
Pariah you might want to explain a bit more what your getting at. Are you saying that all the old Pagan stuff is Christian based?
Fair play!
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,020 Likes: 31
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,020 Likes: 31 |
Y'know...
Virtually everything in human history has some basis in its traditions to previous existing history and culture.
It's not a valid argument to say that just because certain aspects of Christian traditions have similarities to pagan traditions and holidays, that Christianity --or recognition of celebrating Christmas specifically-- is invalidated by those similarities.
A similar invalid argument is that American democracy should not be respected as a strong and unique form of government, just because it borrows from Greek and Roman models of democracy.
Christianity, whatever its roots, is a clearly defined, well-established and unique faith, and is not a pagan religion, despite timing its holidays to coincide with the pagan holiday that preceded Christmas, and similar Christian holidays.
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
You can say or not say what ever you want. If you don't want to acknowledge Christmas, then don't.
But if you want me to do my CHRISTMAS shopping at your store, don't treat the word as a swear word.
Excellent post, WBAM. That cuts to the bone of it.
If others celebrate Ramadan or Chanukkah, or Festivus or whatever, fine. They don't have to participate, they can celebrate their own holidays, and their own religion.
Or in the case of atheists, celebrate nothing.
Great, okay, celebrate nothing, you don't have to celebrate Christmas.
But don't tell the 80% or more of the U.S. population who do celebrate Christmas that they can't have Christmas carols playing in stores.
Or that teachers can't wish their students a merry Christmas.
Or even that employees at a retail store (a private business, not a government institution) wish people and their kids a merry Christmas.
That is tyranny of a minority on the Christian majority.
And repression of our freedom of religion.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
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betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203 |
 Please cut out the drama--you aren't really interested in freedom of religion, just your freedom. If you came out and said I'd actually have more respect for your opinion. Christianity, in all its strains, has a history of preserving its freedoms to the exclusion of others. You speak of tyranny as if someone has invaded your home and stolen everything from you. That someone should express an opinion different from yours must be your ultimate form of imagined reprssion. Your "Christian majority" will survive just fine if a few pews are empty on Christmas Eve.
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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