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Quote:
PaulWellr said:
Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
I wouldn't leave this country on vacation.
In America you're always only ten feet away from a firearm and that makes me feel all warm and safe.
Suge loves America so much he never leaves prison!
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Socialism has its pluses on paper in a theoretical world that is sadly naïve when it comes to the harsh reality of human nature.
the same with capitalism
Actually, if you were to postulate a Malthusian/Huxleyan societal structure where survival of the fittest was the only operational principle, capitalism would mimic the mechanisms of selection almost perfectly. Capitalism is designed to not only account for but thrive off of human nature, which according to Ayn Rand (as well as some thinkers with whose basic worldview I actually agree) is self-centered, fiercely competitive, and concerned primarily with consumption, the motive force behind consumerism. Doesn't necessarily make it right, but it's observable and quantifiable, which makes it an empirically verifiable reality, unlike socialism which has yet to produce a society that can survive as long as the comparatively short-lived capitalistic society we have in the United States. I'm not making a value judgment here necessarily. I'm just maintaining that 'pure' socialism is still largely a pipe dream that looks pretty on paper but probably can't be implemented in the real world.
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
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gundamwingpilot said:
not everyone has insurance, so your gonna let people that dont have insurance die??
Isn't that pretty similar to what happens in socialized healthcare systems? Except this time the insurance agent is the government and they can refuse coverage to whomever they like - the chronically ill, the developmentally disabled, the elderly... Just strikes me as a potential vector for social engineering is all.
Edited to add quotation because this thread got busy in between the post I was replying to and my own post.
Everyone gets there healthcare in Canada and parts of Europe, unlike the uninsured people of the US
You sure? I don't wanna turn this into a snore-fest of statistics, but I seriously doubt that Canada and the Euro nations of which you speak have never denied anyone health care.
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Sammitch, unless ur dying and your with out health care you wont understand. As long as you have money and wealth you think capitalism is the way to go. In all honestly i would rather have no tax break but know i would be treated for an illness if it ever arose then having a few extra grand in my pocket. And even if you do have insurance, sometimes it doesnt cover all procedures what then? Your insurance doesnt cover a heart transplant... oh well ur just gonna have to die. What happened to humanity.
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We refused to let the weak die and upset the natural process of things.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
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Captain Sammitch said:
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gundamwingpilot said:
not everyone has insurance, so your gonna let people that dont have insurance die??
Isn't that pretty similar to what happens in socialized healthcare systems? Except this time the insurance agent is the government and they can refuse coverage to whomever they like - the chronically ill, the developmentally disabled, the elderly... Just strikes me as a potential vector for social engineering is all.
Edited to add quotation because this thread got busy in between the post I was replying to and my own post.
Everyone gets there healthcare in Canada and parts of Europe, unlike the uninsured people of the US
You sure? I don't wanna turn this into a snore-fest of statistics, but I seriously doubt that Canada and the Euro nations of which you speak have never denied anyone health care.
Those stats beat the US stats any day. People who cant afford healthcare get it in those countries, in the US if u dont have insurance your fucked. Peope who cant afford medication or treatment dont get it in the US, not the case in Europe and Canada, even teh poorest in canada get treated, hell the homeless get antibiotics if they need it.
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The only way socialism works is if they mooch off a capitalist country. What countries have made the largest contributions to science, medicine and technology? Not the socialist ones. What countries can defend themselves against evil terrorists? Not the socialist ones. Any type of government that limits some ones free speech and desire to do better in life is wrong.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Sammitch, unless ur dying and your with out health care you wont understand. As long as you have money and wealth you think capitalism is the way to go. In all honestly i would rather have no tax break but know i would be treated for an illness if it ever arose then having a few extra grand in my pocket. And even if you do have insurance, sometimes it doesnt cover all procedures what then? Your insurance doesnt cover a heart transplant... oh well ur just gonna have to die. What happened to humanity.
gwp, I have cerebral palsy, my birth mother was a drug user, and the only reason I have good insurance with my adoptive (real) family is because my mom is a public school teacher. I'm thankful for what I have, but I'm not rich by any means and I am certainly not blind to the plight of unfortunate or impoverished people. I don't want to hear a bleeding-heart argument except from someone who has a pretty good experiential reason to advocate their cause so strongly. I respect your beliefs, but this is an open forum and I felt obligated to contribute my own as well. Don't tell me what I do and don't understand unless you've got a pretty damn impressive list of qualifications behind your assertions. We're on the same level in here, okay?
Edited to add quotation (I really need to start hitting the right buttons)
Last edited by Captain Sammitch; 2005-02-15 5:14 AM.
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I hardly doubt European countries mooch off the US.
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You really don't wanna pull out stats to verify that. Trust me. 
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Sammitch, unless ur dying and your with out health care you wont understand. As long as you have money and wealth you think capitalism is the way to go. In all honestly i would rather have no tax break but know i would be treated for an illness if it ever arose then having a few extra grand in my pocket. And even if you do have insurance, sometimes it doesnt cover all procedures what then? Your insurance doesnt cover a heart transplant... oh well ur just gonna have to die. What happened to humanity.
gwp, I have cerebral palsy, my birth mother was a drug user, and the only reason I have good insurance with my adoptive (real) family is because my mom is a public school teacher. I'm thankful for what I have, but I'm not rich by any means and I am certainly not blind to the plight of unfortunate or impoverished people. I don't want to hear a bleeding-heart argument except from someone who has a pretty good experiential reason to advocate their cause so strongly. I respect your beliefs, but this is an open forum and I felt obligated to contribute my own as well. Don't tell me what I do and don't understand unless you've got a pretty damn impressive list of qualifications behind your assertions. We're on the same level in here, okay?
Edited to add quotation (I really need to start hitting the right buttons)
Im saying all this is cause i didnt get treatment in the US when i was ill cause i couldnt afford it, but i got it in Canada. So unless u walked in my shoes u dont understand.
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What is your nationality?
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Edit: look at the quote below
Last edited by gundamwingpilot; 2005-02-15 5:19 AM.
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Half American half Canadian, thats why i was able to get treatment in Canada
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Sammitch, unless ur dying and your with out health care you wont understand. As long as you have money and wealth you think capitalism is the way to go. In all honestly i would rather have no tax break but know i would be treated for an illness if it ever arose then having a few extra grand in my pocket. And even if you do have insurance, sometimes it doesnt cover all procedures what then? Your insurance doesnt cover a heart transplant... oh well ur just gonna have to die. What happened to humanity.
gwp, I have cerebral palsy, my birth mother was a drug user, and the only reason I have good insurance with my adoptive (real) family is because my mom is a public school teacher. I'm thankful for what I have, but I'm not rich by any means and I am certainly not blind to the plight of unfortunate or impoverished people. I don't want to hear a bleeding-heart argument except from someone who has a pretty good experiential reason to advocate their cause so strongly. I respect your beliefs, but this is an open forum and I felt obligated to contribute my own as well. Don't tell me what I do and don't understand unless you've got a pretty damn impressive list of qualifications behind your assertions. We're on the same level in here, okay?
Edited to add quotation (I really need to start hitting the right buttons)
Im saying all this is cause i didnt get treatment in the US when i was ill cause i couldnt afford it, but i got it in Canada. So unless u walked in my shoes u dont understand.
Gotcha. I don't know how it makes you feel. Fair enough. I don't. That's a good argument by itself. Just don't start making big, sweeping assertions unless you have something objective to back them up with. Your personal experience is compelling enough on its own, but it's not going to offset the statistical evidence for or against the practicality of socialized healthcare.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Sammitch, unless ur dying and your with out health care you wont understand. As long as you have money and wealth you think capitalism is the way to go. In all honestly i would rather have no tax break but know i would be treated for an illness if it ever arose then having a few extra grand in my pocket. And even if you do have insurance, sometimes it doesnt cover all procedures what then? Your insurance doesnt cover a heart transplant... oh well ur just gonna have to die. What happened to humanity.
gwp, I have cerebral palsy, my birth mother was a drug user, and the only reason I have good insurance with my adoptive (real) family is because my mom is a public school teacher. I'm thankful for what I have, but I'm not rich by any means and I am certainly not blind to the plight of unfortunate or impoverished people. I don't want to hear a bleeding-heart argument except from someone who has a pretty good experiential reason to advocate their cause so strongly. I respect your beliefs, but this is an open forum and I felt obligated to contribute my own as well. Don't tell me what I do and don't understand unless you've got a pretty damn impressive list of qualifications behind your assertions. We're on the same level in here, okay?
Edited to add quotation (I really need to start hitting the right buttons)
Im saying all this is cause i didnt get treatment in the US when i was ill cause i couldnt afford it, but i got it in Canada. So unless u walked in my shoes u dont understand.
Gotcha. I don't know how it makes you feel. Fair enough. I don't. That's a good argument by itself. Just don't start making big, sweeping assertions unless you have something objective to back them up with. Your personal experience is compelling enough on its own, but it's not going to offset the statistical evidence for or against the practicality of socialized healthcare.
fair enough, but i still believe social healthcare will save the little guy
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
fair enough, but i still believe social healthcare will save the little guy
Maybe. Or maybe it'll be more affordable insurance. Or a better minimum wage. Or improved malpractice protection practices that makes medical less expensive by reducing the expenses incurred by crrent malpractice insurance. Who knows? Right now it's anybody's guess. I'm just hesitant to undermine our entire economic system for the sake of what might just be a quick fix. There's quite possibly another, better solution out there.
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I would have the strenght of ten gorillas.
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Actually, it's historically been the mission of the church to care for those who can't care for themselves. The whole reason we have such a messy situation with government-subsidized health care and insurance and health care affordability is because the church largely shirked its responsibility to care for the impoverished or otherwise unfortunate members of society when it was needed most - during the Great Depression - and prompted the government to step in and assume responsibility for (and control over) the health and well-being of the American people.
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Well they couldn't let taxpayers die. It would be bad for buisness.
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Quote:
rex said:
Here's a couple more,
oh, good. Quote:
Socialism is just as bad as communism. Any socialist country has to rely on other countries to defend them. coughcanadacough
Socialism is quite different from communism. I'd like you to compare the healthcare and education systems of socialist vs. capitalist countries before you start saying which is better. Quote:
Religious extremists need to be deprogrammed.
Agreed.
Quote:
The war in Afganistan was completely justifiable.
Several pre-9/11 statements show that several large US Oil companies were unhappy with the Taliban because it gave them trouble with building the oil pipeline. Since the whole point of that war was to get Osama, but now he's still out there but we're building that pipeline (and the opium trade/warlords are growing there), I'd hardly call that war justifiable.
Quote:
The war in Iraq was also completely justifiable, but Bush should not have sold the war on WMD.
Only if you justify it by saying we were cleaning up a mess that we made, since we helped to consolidate Saddam's power in the first place. Also, Iraq was switching its trade from dollars to the Euro, so if the UN sanctions were lifted, Iraq's oil being paid with Euros would have seriously undercut the dollar and destablized US strength and influence. Quote:
Capitalism is the greatest thing of all time.
Prove it. Quote:
Freedom of speech is one of the most important parts of a free society.
agreed. Quote:
Protesting in America accomplishes nothing.
Only because the media doesn't treat it seriously and the police now use too much force to subdue protestors. Quote:
The government needs to be accountable for their spending.
agreed. Quote:
Schools need to be accountable for their spending.
agreed Quote:
We need to stop all illegal immigration. Especially from Mexico.
or maybe the focus should be on asking why people are coming here in the first place. why are their countries so poor that they need to come here? why are their countries so horrible that they need to come here?
Bow ties are coool.
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Lookie! r3x is trying to act smart again
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Lookie! r3x is trying to act smart again
Is this the catholic humility again? I generally tune out when you start spouting your drivel.
You have yet to come up with a single counterpoint to anything that I say. All you do is insult me and act like that's a valid response.
Bow ties are coool.
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We already are 15000+ posts
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Just go and get me and pariah some sodas bitch.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
or maybe the focus should be on asking why people are coming here in the first place. why are their countries so poor that they need to come here? why are their countries so horrible that they need to come here?
Their problem. 
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
who on this board is saying "yeah I'm for that"? Nobody, unless I missed a pro-communism post. Seems like your getting upset about nothing.
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think what really happened here is that, since this was the world's first democratically elected goverment, and Chile was a fairly stable country (before you fucked it up for our own good, I mean), the circusmtances to find out if communism would really work under ideal conditions were finally given, and you were so scared that the answer might be yes ...
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
unlike socialism which has yet to produce a society that can survive as long as the comparatively short-lived capitalistic society we have in the United States. I'm not making a value judgment here necessarily. I'm just maintaining that 'pure' socialism is still largely a pipe dream that looks pretty on paper but probably can't be implemented in the real world.
The US system has lasted so long because it isn't 100% capitalism. Capitalism in it's true form has absolutely no government intervention. This is not true of the US. Plus, we've created some pretty socialistic type programs like Social Security, Workman's Comp., Disability, Unemployment, and Medicare. It's more on the capitalistic side, but it works because it doesn't let one governmental philosophy run wild.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
who on this board is saying "yeah I'm for that"? Nobody, unless I missed a pro-communism post. Seems like your getting upset about nothing.
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think what really happened here is that, since this was the world's first democratically elected goverment, and Chile was a fairly stable country (before you fucked it up for our own good, I mean), the circusmtances to find out if communism would really work under ideal conditions were finally given, and you were so scared that the answer might be yes ...
Nice way of distorting Mxy's quote. Too damned bad that's not what he meant and only how you decided to take it.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Oh shit. What the fuck is the name of the stomp out communism docturn?
Isn't it actully written into American law that we stop the spread of commmunism?
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
who on this board is saying "yeah I'm for that"? Nobody, unless I missed a pro-communism post. Seems like your getting upset about nothing.
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think what really happened here is that, since this was the world's first democratically elected goverment, and Chile was a fairly stable country (before you fucked it up for our own good, I mean), the circusmtances to find out if communism would really work under ideal conditions were finally given, and you were so scared that the answer might be yes ...
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Nice way of distorting Mxy's quote. Too damned bad that's not what he meant and only how you decided to take it.
Mxy clearly indicated a belief that communism could work under "ideal" conditions. While not a ringing endorsement of the concept, it is still something of a theoretical endorsement.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Mxy clearly indicated a belief that communism could work under "ideal" conditions. While not a ringing endorsement of the concept, it is still something of a theoretical endorsement.
The pure lawyer comes out. That is not what he said or meant. His statement clearly says that Chile was a testing ground for if communism would work and that the US was afraid that the country would stay that course. His earlier statement had clearly said that the government would have most likely been voted out in the next election. You're just trying to spin the quote to enforce your own need to lash out against anything "Anti"-American.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Quote:
rex said:
Here's a couple more,
Socialism is just as bad as communism. Any socialist country has to rely on other countries to defend them. coughcanadacough
Religious extremists need to be deprogrammed.
The war in Afganistan was completely justifiable.
The war in Iraq was also completely justifiable, but Bush should not have sold the war on WMD.
Capitalism is the greatest thing of all time.
Freedom of speech is one of the most important parts of a free society.
Protesting in America accomplishes nothing.
The government needs to be accountable for their spending.
Schools need to be accountable for their spending.
We need to stop all illegal immigration. Especially from Mexico.
you sound like a dumb red neck white guy.
You're a racist. I don't mean that you're a racist against white people, you allready know that. I mea you're a racist against all minorities, insisting that they believe what you do or insisting (in your next post) that only white people can work hard and afford thier own health care. No wonder people like you are so ready and willing to overlook a clansman in your own rank (Byrd)
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Mxy clearly indicated a belief that communism could work under "ideal" conditions. While not a ringing endorsement of the concept, it is still something of a theoretical endorsement.
Quote:
thedoctor said:
That is not what he said or meant. His statement clearly says that Chile was a testing ground for if communism would work and that the US was afraid that the country would stay that course. His earlier statement had clearly said that the government would have most likely been voted out in the next election.
His statement
(a) theorized that communism could work;
(b) theorized that a communist government would, despite all historical evidence to the contrary (USSR, Cuba, China, etc.) abide by free elections and allow itself to be voted out of office
Again, while not a ringing endorsement, still more pro-communism than history would seem to justify.
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Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
If your so against social services, i wonder whose gonna pay for your medical bill if anything happens to you. Dumb red neck white guy.
This is funny because it shows how much you damn dirty hippies rely on teh Dole to bail your asses out all the time. You said you "wonder" well alow the wondering tho cease because recently my family DID have something happen. My wife was injured recently and had to go to the emergency room and guess who paid for it..... WE DID. Is that really that difficult of a concept for you to understand? If YOU were to have a medical emergancy , you know who would pay for it? ME and PJP and r3xtardd (r3xtardd by proxy in that PJP would be able to pay him a little more than his meager pittance if he wasn't paying for your lazy no working ass). Just out of curriosity, where do you think the government gets it's money? The government gets money by taking it away from from the productive members of society.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
not everyone has insurance, so your gonna let people that dont have insurance die??
Why don't they get a job and buy insurance instead of relying on me to pay thier bills?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
I believe we need social services. It's just that these systems are too often abuse and scammed. People can be sick assholes.
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Some social services are appropriate. Having social services isn't the same as socialISM
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
I believe we need social services. It's just that these systems are too often abuse and scammed. People can be sick assholes.
I agree with you, there just needs to be a good way to regulate it. Capitalism has its pluses so does socialism, anyone who says that one sucks and the other is the best is one uneducated dumb fucktard.
Then call me an uneduacted dumb fucktard, because capitalism is better than socialISM (I'm sure since you are so enlightened I don't have to clarify to you why socialISM isn't the same as having social programs, The US currently has social programs, but isn't a socialist nation)
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
His statement
(a) theorized that communism could work;
This is an invalid claim since it is not what he said. He simply said Chile would be a testing ground to see if it would work. He never said it would. That's what you are reading into it. As a matter of fact, Mxy actually says later on that he and people he knows with more poli-sci knowledge don't think it would have worked. This is you not paying attention and going off on a rant.
Quote:
the G-man said:
(b) theorized that a communist government would, despite all historical evidence to the contrary (USSR, Cuba, China, etc.) abide by free elections and allow itself to be voted out of office
Again, while not a ringing endorsement, still more pro-communism than history would seem to justify.
It's not an endorsement at all. I think Mxy believed more in his people deciding their own future than the US imposing a harsh dictatorship on them.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
gundamwingpilot said:
Sammitch, unless ur dying and your with out health care you wont understand. As long as you have money and wealth you think capitalism is the way to go. In all honestly i would rather have no tax break but know i would be treated for an illness if it ever arose then having a few extra grand in my pocket. And even if you do have insurance, sometimes it doesnt cover all procedures what then? Your insurance doesnt cover a heart transplant... oh well ur just gonna have to die. What happened to humanity.
First I seriously doubt you recieved any benifit whatsoever from the tax breaks second you clearly have no idea how the worl works. I would rather NOT have my healthcare coverage decline to the the point where I can't really depend on it just so that people like you who don't want to work can get health care for free. Do I think the government should provide healthcare for those who CAN'T work? yes, but do I also want to pay for stubborn lazy asses like you? no, I don't especcially when it means that teh healthcare i recieve is far less reliable than the healthcare I recieve now.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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