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PaulWellr said:
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klinton said:
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Jim Jackson said:
I also do not feel it's a problem that Universities in general are havens for Liberalism. As I've said, this has LONG been the case. I think it's also the general case that educated people (people with advanced degrees) tend to be Liberal. And Universities are full of educated people LOL.
Are you really prepared for the shitstorm this statement is going to cause?
I think the main causes of the partisan disparity on campus have little to do with anything so nefarious as discrimination (or with Republicans not being that smart  ). First, Republicans don't particularly want to be professors. To go into academia — a highly competitive field that does not offer great riches — you have to believe that living the life of the mind is more valuable than making a Wall Street salary. On most issues that offer a choice between having more money in your pocket and having something else — a cleaner environment, universal health insurance, etc. — conservatives tend to prefer the money and liberals tend to prefer the something else. It's not so surprising that the same thinking would extend to career choices.
Yeah, it's all about the money for Republicans. Like those Republican evangelical ministers. We all know what a shitload they make. 
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Captain Sammitch said:
...
Yeah, it's all about the money for Republicans. Like those Republican evangelical ministers. We all know what a shitload they make.
Actually the TV ones seem to do OK. As for the others, the abortion issue probably forces many into being Republicans. I suspect that despite what the President has said, I doubt you'll see Roe vs Wade overturned for that reason.
Fair play!
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Matter-eater Man said:
Can't say I care for the question & how it's framed but I would say the student deserved an F.
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Jim Jackson said:
...Of course, someone on this board will surely argue that the Professor framed the question in an "anti-American"/pro-Liberal fashion.
And I wouldn't blame them. The question is written with a HUGE left slant.
Of course, the essay topic is also labelled as number 3, which means that the student had at least two other topics he could have chosen to write about. Now, they might have also been written with a slant to the left, but we don't know that for sure.
Either way, the student chose this question. Perhaps it was because he wanted to challenge its leftist slant (an assumption I'm making based on the paper he wrote). If that's what he wanted to do while still worried about his grade, he should have either done it WHILE answering the question at hand or AFTER doing so. Then if the teacher gave him an F, he'd at least have a real case.
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Captain Sammitch said:
Yeah, it's all about the money for Republicans. Like those Republican evangelical ministers. We all know what a shitload they make.
Well, ummmmmm, actually...
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Wednesday said:
The question is written with a HUGE left slant.
Be that as it may, that in and itself does not prove a thesis that "Liberal professors are discriminating against Conservative students."
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I'm not familiar with the book the essay was based on but while the word elite may be seem like a loaded word it does apply to our founding fathers. They couldn't have acheived what they did if they applied some type of consensus by all land owners IMHO. I just don't see it as a bad thing but a necessary thing.
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the G-man said:
The problem with arguing that "conservative profs will do it too" is that there are very, very, few conservative professors out there
Heh.
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This goes beyond liberal professors discriminating against convervative students; as I'm sure it's been pointed out in one of all the posts I didn't read, if the majority of professors were conservative, they would discriminate against liberal students. No, the real problem is that there's an idiotic amount of useless hostility between both sides, useless because, as the posters in this forum know better than anyone, adults are so stubborn that it's impossible to get them to change their views after they've stated them, even if logic dictates they should. There's a tremendous amount of debate in this forum... I wonder how many people have actually changed any of their views by taking part in them. I get the feeling most of the time there's debate just for debate's sake posing as worthwhile debate.
This hostily runs deep and it's hard to overcome it even when we're trying to do it: for example, I've just been stupidly hostile by implying conservatives are not intelligent enough to be professors in my last post, because I ideologically sympathize more with liberals and therefore automatically believe them to be smarter. But, you know, at least I admit it.
Has it ever happened to you that you suddenly dislike a person after you've found out what their political ideas are? I have, and I think it's a stupid reaction and it shouldn't ever happen. Most of the time I've been proven wrong. If I dislike a person it should be because they're low as human beings, not because of something as trivial as what side do they lean to. Assuming things about other people, like, say, assuming someone belongs to a certain idealogy because of something non-critical (or not critical enough) of that ideology they've said, and then choose to ironically ignore the evidence a four year old should be able to see to continue to classify this person, going to such extremes as using them as examples in other discussions, is something I consider not precisely idiotic but low and unworthy of a human being, and I'd despise that person even if we agreed ideologically for doing that.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
as I'm sure it's been pointed out in one of all the posts I didn't read, if the majority of professors were conservative, they would discriminate against liberal students.
No, this was not pointed out. Why? Because I don't believe it's true.
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Has it ever happened to you that you suddenly dislike a person after you've found out what their political ideas are?
I try very hard for this not to happen. I see no reason why I couldn't sit down with, say, G-Man, and have a drink with him despite the disparity of our political viewpoints.
One of my dearest, dearest friends is a hardcore Indiana Republican. Doesn't matter. Yes, we can get into heated arguments over politics, but our friendship always wins out.
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Jim Jackson said:
No, this was not pointed out. Why? Because I don't believe it's true.
Why? Why would conservative professors be any less likely of comitting that stupidity? I don't think it's the liberal in the professors discriminating the students, it's the human in them.
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I try very hard for this not to happen. I see no reason why I couldn't sit down with, say, G-Man, and have a drink with him despite the disparity of our political viewpoints.
One of my dearest, dearest friends is a hardcore Indiana Republican. Doesn't matter. Yes, we can get into heated arguments over politics, but our friendship always wins out.
You try, which means you recognize the problem. I try too, yet sometimes I think back and realize I've just done it again, and try to correct it. I have many friends I disagree with radically (there's still people who support Pinochet, if you can believe that), but they all happen to be childhood friends or people I knew for a while before knowing their political tendency.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
This goes beyond liberal professors discriminating against convervative students; as I'm sure it's been pointed out in one of all the posts I didn't read, if the majority of professors were conservative, they would discriminate against liberal students. No, the real problem is that there's an idiotic amount of useless hostility between both sides, useless because, as the posters in this forum know better than anyone, adults are so stubborn that it's impossible to get them to change their views after they've stated them, even if logic dictates they should.
The real problem is when this hostility manifests itself in the real world, like in the media or politics. Partisan hatred prevents actually talking things out, getting anything accomplished, and letting the American people know what's really at stake and what the issues are really about.
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There's a tremendous amount of debate in this forum... I wonder how many people have actually changed any of their views by taking part in them. I get the feeling most of the time there's debate just for debate's sake posing as worthwhile debate.
I thought I was the only one around here who thought this way. It drove me away once, and it's almost driven me away again several times since. After I took a week off after my grandfather died, I strongly considered not coming back at all because I got so tired of the fighting and the stubborness.
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Has it ever happened to you that you suddenly dislike a person after you've found out what their political ideas are?
No, because it doesn't matter to me. I don't care what people's politics are, as long as they don't play the misionary or demonize me for not seeing eye to eye with them. People have cast me aside because of my political views, and it hurts me. Some conservatives think I'm liberal just because I'm not conservative, and it never enters their mind that there are moderates who don't fit in to either category (Not all of them, though. I have quite a few conservative friends who don't really care where I stand politically, and who are smart enough to realize that not conservative doesn't automatially mean liberal.)
However, now that I think about it, no liberal I know has ever cast me off for not being a liberal. My parents are hardcore liberals, but they respect my stance as a moderate.
Maybe this is one reason why I tend to sympathize more with liberals than conservatives on some occasions - because conservatives label and stereotype me as something I'm not, and liberals tend not to do that.
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If I dislike a person it should be because they're low as human beings, not because of something as trivial as what side do they lean to.
Agreed. Disliking a liberal or conservative doesn't automatically make you one of the opposition, and it annoyes me when people are too narrow-minded to tell the difference.
I hate labelling and stereotyping under any circumstances, and for liberals or conservatives to be stereotyped or being accused of believing in something they don't truly aggravates me - especially when the accusers refuse to believe or listen to the people they're rashly accusing. Stubbornness is another pet peeve of mine.
I wish that moderates were as much of a force as liberals or conservatives are. Liberals and conservatives have their own fellow liberals and conservatives to rally behind. We moderates don't really have any.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-03-07 2:05 AM.
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klinton said:
I was not disagreeing with you, or questioning your conclusion. Just be prepared for idiot fucktards (like...um...Rex...) to reply with an 'all knowing' vengence.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Why? Why would conservative professors be any less likely of comitting that stupidity? I don't think it's the liberal in the professors discriminating the students, it's the human in them.
Show me that *anybody's* discriminating against anybody else.
I still don't see it.
The question on the essay that's a part of this argument doesn't count as "discriminating." Yes, on face it appears to be a Liberally slanted question. But we're just armchair quarterbacking on that one, unless somebody can dig up a Constitution scholar willing to say/argue that the basis of the prof's question is inaccurate/ill-founded.
This prof could just be tossing out a question to make his students stretch their reasoning ability. A kind of "show me you're developing better writing skills by taking a position you disagree with and supporting it anyway." I'm not saying that's good pedagogy (I'm not saying it's not...I have no comment on it...my training's in the Sciences where we develop experiments to test our theoretical assertions).
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Darknight613 said:
After I took a week off after my grandfather died, I strongly considered not coming back at all because I got so tired of the fighting and the stubborness.
It has surprised me all along, participating in this forum, how many Conservatives are present here.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Among full professors at Berkeley and Stanford, the ratio of Democrats to Republicans is 7:1. But among younger untenured assistant and associate profes-sors it's a ridiculous 31:1. Among the rising generation of professors, in other words, Republicans are almost extinct.
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Animalman said:
Well, firstly, this is taken from Berkeley and Stanford.
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The dominant orthodoxy "amounts to a one-party system. That is no longer a matter of conjecture. It is established fact.
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Perhaps for those colleges.
It's not just those colleges:
when researchers checked the voter registration of humanities and social science instructors at 19 universities, they discovered a whopping political imbalance. The results, published in The American Enterprise in 2002, made it clear that for all the talk of diversity in higher education, ideological diversity in the modern college faculty is mostly nonexistent.
So, for example, at Cornell, of the 172 faculty members whose party affiliation was recorded, 166 were liberal (Democrats or Greens) and six were conservative (Republicans or Libertarians). At Stanford the liberal-conservative ratio was 151-17. At San Diego State it was 80-11. At SUNY Binghamton, 35-1. At UCLA, 141-9. At the University of Colorado-Boulder, 116-5.
Reflecting on these gross disparities, The American Enterprise's editor, Karl Zinsmeister, remarked: "Today's colleges and universities . . . do not, when it comes to political and cultural ideas, look like America."
At about the same time, a poll of Ivy League professors commissioned by the Center for the Study of Popular Culture found that more than 80 percent of those who voted in 2000 had cast their ballots for Democrat Al Gore while just 9 percent backed Republican George W. Bush. While 64 percent said they were "liberal" or "somewhat liberal," only 6 percent described themselves as "somewhat conservative' -- and none at all as "conservative."
And the evidence continues to mount.
The New York Times reports that a new national survey of more than 1,000 academics shows Democratic professors outnumbering Republicans by at least 7 to 1 in the humanities and social sciences. At Berkeley and Stanford, according to a separate study that included professors of engineering and the hard sciences, the ratio of Democrats to Republicans is even more lopsided: 9 to 1.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
What's the problem? That there are too many Liberal professors? Or that there's some concern that Liberal professors don't tolerate dissenting points of view?
A little of both:
Such one-party domination of any major institution is problematic in a nation where Republicans and Democrats can be found in roughly equal numbers. In academia it is scandalous. It strangles dissent, suppresses debate, and causes minorities to be discriminated against. It is certainly antithetical to good scholarship.
"Any political position that dominates an institution without dissent," writes Mark Bauerlein, an English professor at Emory and director of research at the National Endowment for the Arts, "deteriorates into smugness, complacency, and blindness. ... Groupthink is an anti-intellectual condition."
Worse yet, it leads faculty members to abuse their authority. The American Council of Trustees and Alumni has just released the results of the first survey to measure student perceptions of faculty partisanship. The ACTA findings are striking. Of 658 students polled at the top 50 US colleges, 49 percent said professors "frequently comment on politics in class even though it has nothing to do with the course," 48 percent said some "presentations on political issues seem totally one-sided," and 46 percent said that "professors use the classroom to present their personal political views."
Academic freedom is not only meant to protect professors; it is also supposed to ensure students' right to learn without being molested. When instructors use their classrooms to indoctrinate and propagandize, they cheat those students and betray the academic mission they are entrusted with. That should be intolerable to honest men and women of every stripe -- liberals and conservatives alike.
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Regarding the "too many liberal professors" idea, some of us have raised the question as to whether or not the imbalance might be due to conservatives not wanting to become college professors while liberals would be more inclined to do so.
If conservatives don't want to be college professors while liberals do, why is that the fault of liberals?
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
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the G-man said:
Such one-party domination of any major institution is problematic in a nation where Republicans and Democrats can be found in roughly equal numbers. In academia it is scandalous.
This is nothing but arguable. "Scandolous"? Hyperbole...it's a good thing.
You advocating that Universities "purge" themselves of half of their Liberal profs in order to "balance" things out? You going to fire professors simply because of their political allegiance?
Hello, paging Hitler, a Mr. A. Hitler, please pick up the courtesy phone...(hyperbole works the other way, too)
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It strangles dissent, suppresses debate, and causes minorities to be discriminated against. It is certainly antithetical to good scholarship.
"Certainly" demands empirical support. IOW, baby, PROVE IT.
I'm sorry, but this article is nothing but rhetoric and bullshit.
Universities are Liberal and have historically been populated with Liberal faculty.
If you have a professor or instructor engaging in political discrimination, then fire him/her. End of story.
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So, folks, for the record, Jim doesn't believe in diversity. 
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Several people have raised some pretty good points that I think merit serious answers, Jim's included.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
the G-man said:
The ACTA findings are striking. Of 658 students polled at the top 50 US colleges, 49 percent said professors "frequently comment on politics in class even though it has nothing to do with the course," 48 percent said some "presentations on political issues seem totally one-sided," and 46 percent said that "professors use the classroom to present their personal political views."
All the stats fall under 50%. That means more don't than do.
What these stats don't address is HOW OFTEN do professors use the classroom to present personal political views. They also do not address the extent to which these professors use the presentation of these personal political views in any way that pertains to actual coursework and grading (do you want a robot professor who reveals nothing of himself or herself to students?).
If students feel these presentations of personal politics "seem" totally one-sided...so? You saying the student's the prof's equal when it comes to knowledge of the material? Gee, I thought the profs have Ph. D.s and the students have high school diplomas. I didn't realize we're to treat students as being intellectually equal to their professors.
If I looked at the American Medical Association and found that over half were Conservative, does this mean that States should pull the licenses of doctors in order to balance things out ideologically?
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the G-man said:
So, folks, for the record, Jim doesn't believe in diversity.
All joking aside, I take this very seriously.
Of course I believe in diversity. But on the basis of politics???
If you show me that there are Conservative Ph.D.s out there who can attest that they're not gaining entry into Academia on the basis of their politics, then you have something. Otherwise, there's nothing there.
DK's already brought up a very good point: Do many Conservatives *want* to be college professors?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
The ACTA findings are striking. Of 658 students polled at the top 50 US colleges, 49 percent said professors "frequently comment on politics in class even though it has nothing to do with the course," 48 percent said some "presentations on political issues seem totally one-sided," and 46 percent said that "professors use the classroom to present their personal political views."
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Jim Jackson said:
All the stats fall under 50%. That means more don't than do.
So...by that argument if, for example, 49% of all homosexuals polled said that professors "frequently comment on homosexuality in class even though it has nothing to do with the course," 48 percent said some "presentations on homosexual issues seem totally one-sided [and anti-gay]," and 46 percent said that "professors use the classroom to present their personal [anit-gay] views" you wouldn't consider that a problem?
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the G-man said:
So...by that argument if, for example, 49% of all homosexuals polled said that professors "frequently comment on homosexuality in class even though it has nothing to do with the course," 48 percent said some "presentations on homosexual issues seem totally one-sided [and anti-gay]," and 46 percent said that "professors use the classroom to present their personal [anit-gay] views" you wouldn't consider that a problem?
Not on its face, no.
And dig this, my thesis advisor was decidedly un-gay-friendly. I still got A's in his classes.
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Jim Jackson said:
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rex said:
Fucking commies.
What bugs me is that no one thinks any of this anti-Conservative bent is any fault of the Conservatives.
WOW! I wonder if you would make the same claim about about racism, sexism, or homophobia. "If people hate you, it MUST be your fault."
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Matter-eater Man said:
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Jim Jackson said:
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rex said:
Fucking commies.
What bugs me is that no one thinks any of this anti-Conservative bent is any fault of the Conservatives.
I think we're supposed to be concerned about the kids having to put up with somebody else's veiwpoint before they go to work for their dad's company.
Yea, because we know all us dirty CONs come from wealthy parents and have jobs waiting for us when we get out of school. How the top 1% of americans managed to pull of a 51% victory is beyond me.
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PJP said:
Those who can't do........Teach!
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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PJP said:
Those who can't do........Teach!
Is this an indictment of teachers?
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Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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PJP said:
Those who can't do........Teach!
Is this an indictment of teachers?
Of some teachers...yes. My parrents are retired teachers. So I've grown up arround teachers. There are some who truly have a passion about what they do, but there are alot who don't. Most teachers aren't the modern day saints they're made out to be (although some definately are)
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
There are some who truly have a passion about what they do, but there are alot who don't.
I imagine that phrase could be applied to just about any profession in the United States.
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Joined: May 2003
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It's probably also fair to say not all attorneys are the modern day scum they're made out to be.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: Dec 2000
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Show me that *anybody's* discriminating against anybody else.
I still don't see it.
The question on the essay that's a part of this argument doesn't count as "discriminating." Yes, on face it appears to be a Liberally slanted question. But we're just armchair quarterbacking on that one, unless somebody can dig up a Constitution scholar willing to say/argue that the basis of the prof's question is inaccurate/ill-founded.
This prof could just be tossing out a question to make his students stretch their reasoning ability. A kind of "show me you're developing better writing skills by taking a position you disagree with and supporting it anyway." I'm not saying that's good pedagogy (I'm not saying it's not...I have no comment on it...my training's in the Sciences where we develop experiments to test our theoretical assertions).
I've seen it happen. Like, right in front of me. Last year, a teacher in one of my classes, a guy I later found out to be quite respected in literary and philosophical circles, said in his introductory class something like: "I assume that, if you're here, you're all intelligent enough to belong to left wing parties or lean towards that side." I laughed my arse off, but then a friend of mine raised his hand and said he was what in the US you'd call a conservative. There were a couple of others (that I know of) who didn't say anything because they felt ridiculed by the professor. The professor said something like "Is that so? Huh." and carried on with the class. If that had happened the other way around I would have probably walked out.
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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i would have had a similar experience but i never went to college. so ill use mxy's.
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Joined: Dec 2000
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I've seen it happen. Like, right in front of me.<snip>
Did any Conservative student do poorly in the class *because* of their Conservatism?
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Can I use your car?
if i can use your degree!
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Peacock Teaser 3000+ posts
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I don't have any real liberal vs. conservative horror stories from the UF campus. Mostly because I take all science classes, where there's really no politcal bias. There's no bias in the atom, thank God. I have noticed that when I'm taking more Humanity-oriented classes (required to be well-rounded, after all), things are a little different. Well of course Human Sexuality is going to be taught by a liberal! Duh. I mean, I do get annoyed when conservatives were painted as backwards idiots (who STILL managed to get accepted to UF) who all went to church on Sunday and never ever ever looked at porn. In fact, one of my biggest thrills that semester was annoying my TA. He was pissed that I thought condoms should be discussed in Sex Ed and that gays marriages needed to be addressed and yet, I didn't vote for Kerry. Who'd a thunk it.
I would say a bigger problem are many of the clubs and organizations. There's a huge 'clout' issue concerning student government (and you'd be surprised how many frat brothers and sorority girls vote democrat), and the more liberal organizations have always been favored.
The whole thing wouldn't even be a big friggin' deal if there was just more diversity on campus. If it's okay to look different, act different, or come from a different country, how come it isn't okay to think differently?
"You're either lying or stupid."
"I'm stupid! I'm stupid!"
Megatron and Starscream
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6000+ posts
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I've seen it happen. Like, right in front of me.<snip>
Did any Conservative student do poorly in the class *because* of their Conservatism?
If this happened to a minority group based on ethnicity or sexual preferance. I'm sure you would (correctly mind you) say that it was intimidation. Even if the students weren't acctually graded more harshly.
Lets say a friend of yours was going to school and the proffesor said something along the lines of. I assume if you're intellegent enough to take this class then you must understand that homosexuallity is unnatural and wrong. Dispite anything the teacher did wouldn't you deem that a hostile environment?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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