I'm glad to see the levity posted here in the last 24 hours, and hate to interrupt it with serious discussion.
Frankly, at this point, I'm up for more playful humor.

Jason, your new signature is great, although there were a few other funny ones there to choose from.

But I put off posting at length last night, so...


Quote:

THE Bastard said:
Happy BHM, everybody.

After reading thru this entire thread, I felt the need to weigh in...something I rarely do in this forum.

My first experiences on the internet, like many of us here at Gob's, were at the old DCMBs back in 2000. I got into a discussion much like this one on the Authority Boards. One of the dedicated participants of that 200 or more page discussion was Dave the Wonder Boy. He and I became fast friends though we didn't exactly see eye to eye on the issue of race in America. While we often disagreed, we were always cordial with one another and really listened to each other's opinions.

Dave, it seems to me that your opinions haven't changed much over the years but, it seems that you are much angrier in expressing them these days. Now, I don't know for sure why this is but, the tone of your posts now is very different from how I remember it back in the day. Perhaps that's due to the overly contentious and partisan nature of this forum. Perhaps you feel victimized for having an unpopular opinion...at least in this particualr thread.



As I said TB, those were very enjoyable discussions for me as well.

Regarding my being "angrier" now... you did see what I was responding to, correct?
If discussion remained on the issue and did not turn to insulting personal assumptions about me, it never would have come to that. I respond to personal attacks as minimally as possible, but there is a certain amount of obligatory response.
And forgive me for taking personally directed comments personally.

Although I spoke to Jason by PM (private message), and he expressed that he drew that conclusion out of an effort to understand my POV, and says he didn't purposefully try to insult me. So I accept that perhaps it was just miscommunication. But at the point I reacted to it, it certainly came across as very personal and insulting, even if it wasn't intended that way.

Some of my comments express my worn-out patience with the same old trump-card arguments, such as "You can't know what it's like to be black", which is a trump-card I accused Mr. Perkins of pulling a few posts back.
But on rereading (one of his two posts that I haven't responded to yet) I now see that he didn't say that. At least not in this topic. It may have been him or someone else, in a previous topic.

So Jason, I am sorry for that.

But please understand, that's a card I've seen pulled frequently, and I misinterpreted that to be what you were saying.

For much of what I've posted to this topic, I don't apologize. I simply stated my views candidly and honestly about how I see black/white relations.

And I think roughly half the time, we (blacks and whites) get along splendidly, and have a lot of shared experience. But there are clearly areas where our experience diverges.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:

Whatever the case, It seems to me that you are fed up with what you perceive as preferential treatment given to blacks.



Yes and no.
As I said, I've witnessed real incidents of racism.

And conversely, I've also felt unabashed racist treatment by blacks and other minorities. Often on the job.

But I'm sympathetic to blacks who suffer in real cases of racism. And I'm proud to live in a country that has advanced so far in 40 years.

What annoys me is when blacks project a hostile attitude toward me and other whites, when we haven't paticipated in racism. And I do feel that's over-reaction on their part, and perpetuation of a myth, their assuming that racism is far more prevalent than it truly is.
And I also feel the brow-beating extorting of guilt from whites, over decades-old past racism, is actually creating hostility in whites toward blacks, that otherwise would be forgotten and healed.
And if not anger, then a tired attitude of just not wanting to interact and deal with it.

Another personal anecdotal example from my own experience:

An older black guy stormed into the gas station i was in two years ago. I'd say he was in his early 60's. I was inside paying in advance for my gas (most stations in Florida make you pay first and then pump your gas, because people driving away without paying is a big problem) and he walked in, after the clerk told him over the intercom at the pump he had to come in and pay first. He was screaming at the arab attendant-guy, saying "You make me pay for my gas first?!? This is racism, I'm going to report you to the NAACP..."
Which was kind of funny and sad at the same time, he didn't come in soon enough to see that I had to do the same thing.

So I went outside and pumped my gas, and noticed he was on the other side of the same island, and still visibly agitated.
After I finished pumping my gas, I walked over and as gently as I could said: "Hey, I just want to let you know, most of the stations here make you pump your gas first. I guess it's different where you live." And it segued into a conversation, and his wife got out of the car and he introduced me to her. They were very friendly. I think their license tag was from South Carolina. I liked them both, and got a very different side of him in our conversation than when we first met inside.
Then he asked me directions and said he was here to visit his son, and was a little lost, so I gave him very clear directions three or four miles across major streets, where he needed to go. We said our goodbyes, and he thanked me profusely.

And I think it really put him at ease to see a friendly face at that point. I was glad the way it turned out, it exceeded my greatest expectations.


Another incident happened two weeks ago at a 7-11, next to where I was having my car repaired.
When I walked in to the 7-11, there was a large black lady at the counter, getting a money order, really mouthing off at the two Pakistani clerks at the counter. She finally was given her change and left. The gist of it was, she felt like they were treating her badly/differently/whatever because she was black.

I'd met one of the clerks before, he was kind of impersonal and friendly-resistant, even when I was nice to him in the past.
When I got to the counter, I asked the other, newer younger clerk, "What the heck was THAT all about?!"

The young clerk just nervously didn't say anything, and the older impersonal clerk said: "Just some stupid motherfucker!"
Which kind of made me laugh, because the Pakistanis I've met are usually so much more low-key and respectful, and don't use profanity. It was like if a five-year-old or a priest said "motherfucker". It was funny because it was so unexpected, and also because the lady clearly really pissed him off.
But she assumed he treated her different because she was black. But this guy was just an equal-opportunity asshole, and is equally impersonal and rude to everyone. The other guy was clearly new, and clearly didn't know what the fuck to say.



Quote:

THE Bastard said:
You seem to feel that most black folks have an unreasonable and unwarranted anger towards whites that manifests itself in violence, a sense of entitlement and a hair-trigger "radar" for peceived racial slights. You've made broad statements and claims backed by spurious "proof" and unsubstantiated anecdotal "evidence" to support your position.



Maybe I've been unclear, but I think some blacks buy into it, and some don't. Like I said before, crimes are tabulated in quantifiable numbers, but overt or hidden hostility toward whites is hard to tabulate a percentage for.
A poll could show its 30%, 50% or 70% of blacks who feel distrust and hostility toward whites, and I could believe any of those numbers. I could even believe it's only 15% or 20%.

But my point is, you have Charles Rangel, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and hundreds of other liberal leaders, both black and white, who are out there cultivating their political base by perpetuating the you are victims of discrimination who deserve special treatment, special protection, special education quotas, and even reparations.

That message is always out there, and some blacks buy into that ideology (whether it's 15%, 20%, 30%, 50% or 70%), and I see too many stories of blacks who have voiced that rage for whites, and finally attacked a white person, to beleive that this victim ideology isn't the cause of it.

If not from this liberal message of victimhood and entitled compensation, what other place could this hostile rage toward the white community be coming from, so many decades after widepread racism and true black exclusion have been overcome?



Quote:

THE Bastard said:

Wednesday has refuted much of your statistical evidence and invited you to provide other, less impeachable data and sources.

You haven't.



The U.S. Justice department has offered numbers of black arrests and conviction rates.
Wendesday has offered some numbers and theories to contest those numbers, some of which I frankly don't understand and doesn't make sense to me.

I'm still open to what he says, pending more clear explanation. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he has "refuted" my statistical evidence.

Wednesday said all those 50-to-1-black-on-white crime statistics were manufactured by some white racist whacko I never heard of, who wrote book on the threat of black crime rate, whose manufactured statistics are endlessly quoted by others and never challenged for accuracy.
That's a theory. That's not proven.

And I think the U.S. Department of Justice would challenge the notion that their numbers are swiped without confirmation from someone well-known to be a white-racist whacko.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:

Instead, you've steadfastly stuck to your old arguements as if you think that by continuing to type them, somehow they'll magically get better and more relevant.



No. I didn't see a credible argument to refute the numbers of our federal government.

Likewise regarding the U.S. Department of Education's numbers of black dropout rates.

As well as teen pregnancy rates, number of black babies born addicted to crack, etc.

Pending further evidence, I'm not buying.

And again, this is some blacks, far from all or a majority. But an alarming percentage.

It can be argued that more government spending on programs would change these numbers. But others would argue you can't help people who won't help themselves, no matter how much you spend.
And again, I think the problem stems from the poisonous ideology fed to black America, of which some (percentage unknown, again) buy into.

I've seen articles that compare the success rates of blacks in the U.S. who have immigrated from Haiti, the Bahamas, Jamaica and Africa, who have a far higher ratio of career education and career success than the success ratio american blacks.
That would indicate the problem is not racism against blacks, but a problem unique to American black culture, that stifles the success of so many.

Quote:

THE Bastard said:

Now, I'm not going back thru this entire thread and quote you post by post. Mr. Perkins has done that more eloquently, efficiently and intelligently than I ever could. It seems to me that he's won the debate and perhaps you should offer your own personal experiences and opinions without trying to back certain biases you may have with facts.



Oh sure.
"White.Hot.Fear." and "pitiable" are such convincing reason-based arguments of the core issue.
Yeah, he sure won that debate.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:

For what it's worth, I don't think that you are racist. Nor do I think you "hate" black people as a group. I do think that you allow your general outlook on blacks as a whole be colored by certain negative life experiences you've had as well as your general conservative point of view.



I appreciate that you acknowledge I'm not a racist.

But I think you have either not read, or didn't recall at the time you wrote this, what I repeatedly said, which was not a sweeping "general outlook on blacks".
I said: A message is out there aimed at all of black america.
Some blacks reject that message.
Some blacks buy into that message.
A smaller percentage buy into that message so angrily that they lash out violently at white Americans.

And like I said, my attitude toward blacks isn't "colored by certain negative life experiences [I've] had." I'm wide open to other viewpoints if explained to me in terms that make actual sense and don't come across as clear spin and rationalization that justifies irresponsible black attitudes and behavior.
What I've heard so far largely comes across, so far, as rationalization and spin.

And I don't like assumptions that my legitimate concerns about a quantifiable black social problem is dismissable as my alleged irrational fear of blacks because of a few not-so-traumatic interactions with a few black idiots and thugs.

Like I said (and it annoys me a bit to have to repeat all this, because it's like you say I voice legitimate concerns, but simultaneously continue to perpetuate the he-has-irrational-fear-of blacks-due-to-traumatic-past-events-and that-explains-everything angle. Maybe you just forgot or overlooked that part of my previous post?) I've had bad experiences with a fair number of women, but I still keep dating women and enjoy their company, despite a few difficult ones in my past.

Quote:

THE Bastard said:

Again, while I don't agree with much of what you say, I think your opinions are valid and you are entitled to think and believe the way you choose. I know quite a few white people of many different backgrounds that see things the way you do. And, I must admit, I know more than a few black people that would seem to prove much of what you say.



Again, thank you, and I appreciate your candor.

Quote:

THE Bastard said:
But, I have to say, the vast majority of the black people I know are more like me: educated, hard working and not looking for a handout.



Like I said, there are many blacks I interact with, whose company I enjoy, and with whom I'm very comfortable.

And again, I don't know how to quantify a percentage who have hostility toward whites. It could be a small percentage, or a high percentage, and neither would surprise me. I know it's out there, though I don't sweepingly judge blacks. But when I pick up the "enemy" vibe, I know it, and mostly try to be friendly and work through it. But it's really uncomfortable when you can't.

Quote:

THE Bastard said:

Where you see black rage, I see the willingness to speak out against that which is unacceptable.



And while I don't discount true examples of racism, I feel black anger on what has ceased to be a real issue, since 1965 opened universities, opened the work environment, and opened every other organization to black membership.

Barring real examples that can be investigated, I don't see that kind of discrimination happening on a regular basis. And the liberal media hypes to death the isolated case that occurs every few years. Extremely isolated incidents.

But the ideology-driven attacks on whites occur with more frequency.

G-man has posted two violent examples from the last week.

Another I recall happened three years ago at a Pompano mall where I get my hair cut. There's a bus terminal right next to the mall entrance. When I got home from my haircut, I saw on the news that an elderly white guy was stabbed in the neck on the bus by a younger black guy. Police searched the stabber's apartment and talked to his neighbors, revealing he had many conversations and notebooks full of writings about his anger about white oppression, and how whites had to pay for it.
So he stabbed some defenseless old man.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:
Generations past kept quiet and "knew their place". My generation and the ones that have come after are not willing to accept the status quo of institutionalized racism that even you have admitted is prevelant in this country. I believe that white people are generally afraid of black folks that won't back down and that fear leads you (as a group) to see us as "angry". 50 years ago the word angry could have been replaced by "uppity". Do you get my point?



White people are generally afraid of blacks who are uneducated, have no visible means of earning a living, and who dress and behave in a criminal and threatening manner.

Blacks who don't fit this profile are not feared by whites. They are welcomed.

And people (black or white, or whatever race) who walk around saying they're not going to take any crap, are people looking for a fight, and people I don't want to deal with.

Again and again I've made this point: It's warped ideology, not racial blackness, that causes many blacks problems with whites.
It's not a matter of race.
There are certain attitudes I find offensive in whites. And what I find offensive in blacks is a cultural variant of the same attitude, which I try to avoid.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:

Where you see a sense of entitlement, I see a demand for a leveling of the playing field that, for decades, has been tipped against us. The reparation debate aside, most black people I know don't want to be given anything other than the chance to excel, the chance to advance, the chance to better ourselves and society at large. Now, to you, this may mean quotas and unfair consideration. To you, this may mean reverse discrimination. The reality is without laws and practices that force consideration and acceptance of black candidates, most places would simply choose to exclude even the most qualified simply on basis of skin color.



In many cases, I might surprise you and agree with you, that a period of quotas helps to even the scales, and allow blacks to enter professional fields.
But I think it's been 40 years now, and we're nearing the end of that being necessary, maybe another 10 or 20 years at most. And I think only when the crutches have been cast aside will blacks be fully respected as equals. I think without quotas, blacks are regarded right now by all except the truly racist as equals. But quotas generate a percieved inferiority, and accompanying resentment.

Again, I think it is when blacks project a certain attitude of entitlement, or simply speak unprofessionally or are otherwise uneducated, that they become undesireable to employers. Otherwise employers would eagerly hire them. So again, it is personal factors, and not skin color, that is the true problem.
It deeply disturbs me that blacks over the last two decades have isolated themselves in a separate black subculture, with separate music, separate news programs, tv shows, etc. What Patrick Buchanan has termed the Balkanization of America. This is a cultural rift, and not a racial one.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:

AS far as playing the race card goes...admittedly more of that happens than I would like. Especially by our so-called "leaders"; many of whom are nothing more than demagogues and race-baiters themselves.



Yes.

Jason Perkins/Wednesday seems to think calls for reparations to blacks is some very obscure outer-fringe movement .
But Jesse Jackson is one of the biggest proponents of it.

And I'd say Jackson is very prominent and mainstream. Or at least visible to the mainstream, and seems to speak for a lot of blacks, even if he is on the liberal fringe. And you might recall, it seemed a real possibility in 1988 that he might get the Democratic nomination over Dukakis. That's pretty mainstream.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:
However, I must say, as just a regular old black guy that has been the victim of many incidents of intentional as well as casual racism and bigotry, it can be difficult on occasion to distinguish actual racial animosity from the unintentional slight. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt until a person's true...forgive the pun...colors are revealed.



This is one of your points that I'm the most sympathetic to.


Quote:

THE Bastard said:
And that's where I am with you, Dave. You have the benefit of my faith in your character. You and I have been cool over the years. We fall on opposite sides of most social and political debates but, I think you are a genuinely nice guy who is passionate about your beliefs. I have always liked and respected you and found you reasonable to chat with. I don't really recognize this angry, bitter guy that has posted on this thread under your ID.

The Wonder Boy I knew was better than that.



Well, I appreciate the kind words, and at least weigh the validity of your harsher words, and points I disagree with.

I don't think I've been that angry, except in response to anger directed at me. If I came across as angry, I hope you hold equal scorn for what I was responding to.

And you did see that I opened with a playful paraphrase of Senator Biden's faux pas ?
I don't think I'm all that angry, I do make a playful remark here and there, and not at anyone's expense.

But I do reserve the right to respond in kind to unfair assumptions and characterizations.