|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
OP
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
I really don't want to see this turn into yet another global warming thread, since we already have multiples of that. But there's a big damn difference between saying "there's global warming and global cooling" and making the leap to the "inconvenient truth" conclusion.
The simple fact of the matter, however, is that Obama-if he really believes that shit on global warming, energy savings, etc.-should be doing a hell of a lot more to be a "green" candidate, and not flying around in "O Force One," etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
|
|
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203 |
I really don't want to see this turn into yet another global warming thread, since we already have multiples of that. But there's a big damn difference between saying "there's global warming and global cooling" and making the leap to the "inconvenient truth" conclusion.
The simple fact of the matter, however, is that Obama-if he really believes that shit on global warming, energy savings, etc.-should be doing a hell of a lot more to be a "green" candidate, and not flying around in "O Force One," etc. no. as always, you're wrong.
Bow ties are coool.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
OP
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
Yeah, ray, god forbid the Obamessiah should practice what he preaches.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
I really don't want to see this turn into yet another global warming thread, since we already have multiples of that. But there's a big damn difference between saying "there's global warming and global cooling" and making the leap to the "inconvenient truth" conclusion.
The simple fact of the matter, however, is that Obama-if he really believes that shit on global warming, energy savings, etc.-should be doing a hell of a lot more to be a "green" candidate, and not flying around in "O Force One," etc. Riiiight .... because as everybody knows, advocating non-fossil fuel power alternatives means you also have to walk your campaign across the country. He's green, not Amish. I wouldn't care if he piloted the space shuttle from houston to miami if he got us off our dependance on Oil, both foreign and domestic. Nothing to do with global warming, I just don't like wallowing in waste like an infant.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
OP
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
If Willie Nelson and Sheryl Crow can tour on biodiesel buses, why can't Obama?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
|
|
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
Westley just proved my point well, he thinks that scientist who present opposing evidence should be ridiculed, the fact that the average temp is lower is of no concern to him, we still must fight global warming even if it doesn't exist! Don't put words in my mouth. It's rude and violates my strict list of objects that belong in my mouth. At no time did I say that a scientist should be ridiculed, I said that they are ridiculed. Graciously granting you the point. And Global Warming does exist, as does Global Cooling. The Earth is dynamic, not static. You can deny either, warming or cooling, but it would be foolish given what we know of the history of the planet. The planet began it's existence a burning, toxic wasteland and has cycled between what we call extreme hot, extreme cold, and temperate. It's fact. It's fact? Did you bring back pictures from the time bubble? Almost every single scientific "fact" about the planet has been disproved within 20 years or so of the "fact" being held in high esteem. I can remember when Pluto was a planet, can you remember back to that fact?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
|
|
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203 |
but the facts didn't change, only the scale of measurement for what qualifies as a planet.
Bow ties are coool.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
|
|
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
|
|
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203 |
Bow ties are coool.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
|
|
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
seriously ray, you really shouldn't believe everything they spoon feed you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
OP
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
As you note, I don't think saying "I've studied the issue, events have changed and, as a result, I am changing my position" is a bad thing.
I think saying whatever one thinks a particular constituency wants to hear, and changing one's postion from day to day based on political expediency is a problem. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
If Willie Nelson and Sheryl Crow can tour on biodiesel buses, why can't Obama? You show me the biodesiesel bus that can make meetings on opposite sides of the country in roughly 9 hours and I'll ask the same question. Just like McCain, he's only got so much time to build up support and make his points. Does it have to be a flying press studio? Of course not, but what matters to me isn't the size of his jet. We get the power plants and cars off fossil fuel, the jets will be a drop in the bucket. Until we get a green way to fly at almost mach 1, we're not saying bye to jets of any kind no matter how much green peace bitches.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
Westley just proved my point well, he thinks that scientist who present opposing evidence should be ridiculed, the fact that the average temp is lower is of no concern to him, we still must fight global warming even if it doesn't exist! Don't put words in my mouth. It's rude and violates my strict list of objects that belong in my mouth. At no time did I say that a scientist should be ridiculed, I said that they are ridiculed. Graciously granting you the point. And Global Warming does exist, as does Global Cooling. The Earth is dynamic, not static. You can deny either, warming or cooling, but it would be foolish given what we know of the history of the planet. The planet began it's existence a burning, toxic wasteland and has cycled between what we call extreme hot, extreme cold, and temperate. It's fact. It's fact? Did you bring back pictures from the time bubble? Almost every single scientific "fact" about the planet has been disproved within 20 years or so of the "fact" being held in high esteem. I can remember when Pluto was a planet, can you remember back to that fact? Thank you for proving my point about changing one's mind given new facts and consideration. You've been most helpful.
Last edited by The Dread Pirate Westley; 2008-08-05 12:54 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
|
|
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
you can tell that youve been around Halo with that response....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
you can tell that youve been around Halo with that response.... One of my first points was that facts do change. A point that you initially refuted as a fallacy on the grounds of resistance, and then grandly and probably accidently, supported. I honestly don't see how Halo figures into this. But if you think I'm dodging your question, I do remember when current facts suggested that pluto was a lone body. I also remember when, like in my point, new facts came to light and they were considered by the scientific community. Resulting in the fact being changed to reflect our new understanding. I also remember when Pluto was thought the last orbiting body from the sun and that fact changing as well. Maybe I'm missing your point here, was there something in it that damages my position? EDIT; Add: Until facts are found that the Earth is not 4 billion years old, did not have a molten beginning, and did not have several climate changes resulting in mass extinctions .. until then, the facts support my position. You can argue about how slippery these darned scientific facts are, just don't expect any substantial doubt to be cast without proof.
Last edited by The Dread Pirate Westley; 2008-08-05 3:21 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
|
|
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
yet these facts of yours have no proof either, how did we get to a point to where theories and conjecture are taught as facts?
if something is a fact it cannot change, that means it was a guess that was proved wrong.
it's silly to believe the world is millions of years old because some people you dont even know string together some circular logic stating it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
yet these facts of yours have no proof either, how did we get to a point to where theories and conjecture are taught as facts?
if something is a fact it cannot change, that means it was a guess that was proved wrong.
it's silly to believe the world is millions of years old because some people you dont even know string together some circular logic stating it is.
Fist off, it's not millions of years old, it's billions of years old. Second, Scientific fact is not always the same as empirical fact, but often is. I'm not here to educate you, but there's nothing circular about radiometrics. However, even if it's later proven wrong through further exploration, it's a line, not a circle. A line that continually leads us to the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
|
|
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
how does the kool-aid taste?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
britneyspearsatemyshorts annoyed Moderator  15000+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:02 AM Reading a post Forum: Politics and Current Events Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:04 AM Making a new reply
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Re: Obama Ducks Debate Challenge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
how does the kool-aid taste? *sigh* Implying that somebody is drinking magic Kool-aid means that they're believing something ridiculous based on nothing but faith. I don't take anything on faith, as I have none. All my opinions are informed by current scientific findings and exploration, widely regarded as "true" with sufficient proof. Asking me to believe that the world is say ... 10 thousand years old, and mankind existed along side dinosaurs, that would be an act of faith on my part as there are no actual findings to support it and it must simply be believed. That would be Kool-Aid. However, if you come back with the definition of Radiometrics I'll tell you why I believe the Earth is 4 and some change Billion years old.
Last edited by The Dread Pirate Westley; 2008-08-05 4:13 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:11 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:13 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:18 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:13 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08? Just to let you know, I'm going to be here a while. I'm just going to F5 periodicly while I watch Youtube.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:19 AM Making a new reply
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Re: Obama Ducks Debate Challenge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:25 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:30 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 01:32 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
|
|
Ignored by 3 users and 2 moderators 4000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,753 |
The Dread Pirate Westley argumentative User only mostly dead
100+ posts Tue Aug 05 2008 02:02 AM Reading a post
Forum: Politics and Current Events
Thread: Barack Hussein Obama in '08?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
|
|
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
how does the kool-aid taste? *sigh* Implying that somebody is drinking magic Kool-aid means that they're believing something ridiculous based on nothing but faith. I don't take anything on faith, as I have none. All my opinions are informed by current scientific findings and exploration, widely regarded as "true" with sufficient proof. Asking me to believe that the world is say ... 10 thousand years old, and mankind existed along side dinosaurs, that would be an act of faith on my part as there are no actual findings to support it and it must simply be believed. That would be Kool-Aid. However, if you come back with the definition of Radiometrics I'll tell you why I believe the Earth is 4 and some change Billion years old. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 95
25+ posts
|
|
25+ posts
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 95 |
I notice the challenge has gone unanswered.
Science is the determination of facts and explanations for what's going on. It proceeds by successive reduction of doubt/uncertainty, improving its accuracy with each pass.
Nothing else even comes close to the success record of science. So forgive me if I show entirely justified disdain for clueless idiots making wild guesses and saying "That's just as likely as what qualified scientific minds are saying, because they haven't been 100% accurate since Day One like me!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
how does the kool-aid taste? *sigh* Implying that somebody is drinking magic Kool-aid means that they're believing something ridiculous based on nothing but faith. I don't take anything on faith, as I have none. All my opinions are informed by current scientific findings and exploration, widely regarded as "true" with sufficient proof. Asking me to believe that the world is say ... 10 thousand years old, and mankind existed along side dinosaurs, that would be an act of faith on my part as there are no actual findings to support it and it must simply be believed. That would be Kool-Aid. However, if you come back with the definition of Radiometrics I'll tell you why I believe the Earth is 4 and some change Billion years old. And that's when I realized I was wasting my time ....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
|
|
We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
tis a shortage of perfect bresats in the world.
it'd be a pity to damage basams'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
|
|
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
science is a DESCRIPTIVE endeavor whose methods and practices were devised to operate within the context of the observable. that's empirical science and it's got a pretty decent track record. beyond the realm of the observable, testable, and repeatable stuff of empirical science, all we can really do is extrapolate a potential explanation from what we already know for certain. really, it's a highly involved process of making educated guesses.
radiometry is an excellent tool for determining the age of organic matter, but the further back you try to take it, the wider the margin for error becomes, and for geological purposes it's really just something to help you ballpark the age of some rocks. outside of that, you get to play this really fun guessing game - how old are these rocks? we can guess the age of the rocks by the age of these fossils. how old are the fossils? we can guess the age of the fossils by the... the age of... these... rocks. yeah. and while radiometry is a good way to avoid completely clowning yourself, it's far from bulletproof.
the error isn't in supporting a theory. some really clever people put in a lot of time coming up with their educated guesses on how the earth got here, how old it is, and so on. the error is in presenting that theory as absolute fact, which according to the operating principles of science itself really isn't possible without direct observation. that places the concepts you're discussing within the realm of the theoretical, and any honest scientist who's not afraid of what the people funding his/her work might say will agree with that wholeheartedly.
the error is definitely in the frantic attempts made to quash any challenges to the [current] officially-accepted explanations for the origins of EVERYTHING. if you think someone's ideas are preposterous, fine. call them on it and compare your actual evidence to their actual evidence instead of firing blindly into the night and contorting yourself into a pretzel condemning them as ignorant or extremist or whatever else you wanna call 'em. it especially gives the scientific establishment a bad name when people invoke 'the system' to silence dissent through firings, demotions, and the like.
I don't have a beef with science or with the scientists who put in hard work in their respective fields. I have a problem with the way that people who help fund the scientific establishment keep pushing their own agendas. people are always complaining that 'religious people' aren't doing enough to stop the atrocities committed in the name of religion. if you want people to trust the scientific establishment more, shouldn't something be done about the people who destroy careers and reputations in the name of science?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
|
|
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
also, even if you don't believe there is a God, it hardly invalidates the statement 'thank GOD for PJP'.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336
only mostly dead 300+ posts
|
|
only mostly dead 300+ posts
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 336 |
I don't take issue with point that radiometrics isn't pinpoint accurate. However, the decay of isotopes is incredibly stable and predictible. Materials with long lived half-lifes provide proof, accurately, to at least 4 billion years.
The ballpark is give or take millions of years, which is acceptable given the scale.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
|
|
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
given your mom's scale. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 95
25+ posts
|
|
25+ posts
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 95 |
radiometry is an excellent tool for determining the age of organic matter, but the further back you try to take it, the wider the margin for error becomes, and for geological purposes it's really just something to help you ballpark the age of some rocks. outside of that, you get to play this really fun guessing game - how old are these rocks? we can guess the age of the rocks by the age of these fossils. how old are the fossils? we can guess the age of the fossils by the... the age of... these... rocks. yeah. and while radiometry is a good way to avoid completely clowning yourself, it's far from bulletproof. In simplest terms, you're way off here. Radiometric dating is LESS reliable for organic materials, and far MORE reliable for inorganic radio-decay, on the order of millions of years (not thousands). http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dating.htmlAnd by the way, evolution HAS been directly observed... http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#observe...even though the idea that science can only proceed by direct observation is absurd. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/sciproof.htmlVery useful site, TalkOrigins. It distills the exchanges of a long-standing Usenet newsgroup full of proofs and discussions of legitimate science and the evidence of evolution.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
OP
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
Very useful site, TalkOrigins. It distills the exchanges of a long-standing Usenet newsgroup full of proofs and discussions of legitimate science and the evidence of evolution.
So it's not just one liberal blog, it's all liberal blogs mushed together into a single liberal "superblog"?
|
|
|
|
|
