College football begins tonight!

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big_pimp_tim said:
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Jim Jackson said:
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Animalman said:
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Jim Jackson said:
I don't.

Tressel won them as HEAD coach.

...yeah, against powerhouses like McNeese State! Weiss coached a state championship high school team. There's his head coach ring!

Seriously, though, Charlie Weiss has succeeded at the highest level of football, on the biggest stage in American sports. And he turned Notre Dame arround immediately. I think his coaching resume is better at this point. I think recruits will think so, too.

Really? What's Weis' record head to head against Tressel? Yeah. Thanks for playing. Charlie succeeded in the NFL as somebody's assistant.

And you think recruits didn't see last night's OSU win over Texas?

Speaking of that little game last night...

Where is the big Texas supporter who was wagging his fucking finger in my face last year on the RKMBs? Huh?? Where the fuck is this loser now? Oh, he was good to say in the offeason, "Oh yeah, the Bucks will not prevail in Austin."

He can suck my cock right now, the goddamn fool.

lookit that! hold on to some anger much? texas had a damn good season being led by a freshman qb. considering that was his what? second start and the only other loss was when he was hurt. look for a mean texzas team for a few years to come. colt mc coy is awesome. that said texas lost, ou won.

The point is that you ran at the mouth so damned sure Texas would beat Ohio State *regardless* of UT's frosh QB.

And it wasn't anger I was holding on to, it's just that I remember what an ass you made of yourself with your foolish prediction. On the DCMB, some idiot did the same kind of thing regarding the OSU-Michigan game, so goddamned sure his Wolverines would prevail.

Me, I kept my mouth shut and the let the game be played on the field.

I suggest in the future you take that advice.

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Animalman said:
Jimmy Clausen, the top high school recruit for next year(and one of the most heralded quarterbacks in a while, due to his family's QB pedigree and the fact that he was first scouted at 13), has verbally committed to Notre Dame, and Charlie Weiss is why. Succeeding at the college level is great, but at the end of the day, the NFL is the ultimate.

Dude, please, stop this.

Tout Charlie as the next Rockne AFTER he's won a few, OK?

And Charlie aint' gonna be here to win many more if he doesn't shed a few pounds. He nearly died from stomach stapling years ago (he bitched that being fat is what kept him from getting an NFL job years ago).

You on Charlie's payroll, Animalman?

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Jim Jackson said:
Really? What's Weis' record head to head against Tressel?

Following this...unusual logic, what's Tressel's record against Barry Alvarez? If not for a 5 point victory in '02(one of a half a dozen narrow victories that year), he'd be bageled, if you'll allow the tennis terminology.

Tressel is a fine coach(so is Barry, actually), and if you wish to say that he's the better gameplanner, the better motivator, etc, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you. He made some great adjustments in last night's game, especially in taking advantage of the absence of Tarell Brown(for which Anthony Gonzalez can be thankful) in the Texas secondary.

Still, if you went around and asked every college coach in America whose list of accomplishments they'd rather have, I bet the significant majority would take Charlie's. He was a vital part of the coaching staff that won three Super Bowls. The Super Bowl is what every kid who ever picked up a football plays for. Even college football, really, is just a glorified stepping stone towards that goal.

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Where is the big Texas supporter who was wagging his fucking finger in my face last year on the RKMBs? Huh?? Where the fuck is this loser now? Oh, he was good to say in the offeason, "Oh yeah, the Bucks will not prevail in Austin."

He can suck my cock right now, the goddamn fool.

Your dirty talk is a bit on the mean side, Jimbo. Tim is unlikely to accept your proposal that way.

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Jim Jackson said:
Tout Charlie as the next Rockne AFTER he's won a few, OK?

11's a few!

I'm not exactly comparing the guy to Bear Bryant. You just seem to take any accomplishment any other coach has and poo-poo on it with the patented Jim Tressel argument.

"Steve Spurrier won a game? Well, Jim Tressel has won a lot!"

"Mack Brown won a national championship? Jim Tressel did that his first year!"

"Joe Paterno cured cancer? Who cares? Jim Tressel beat Michigan!"

Of course, this makes you accusing me of being on somebody's payroll all the more hilarious.

Now, don't get me wrong, if Ohio State wins it all this year(and they very well might), I wouldn't begrude you the opportunity to praise your team and your boy. That being said, give Tressel's leg a little rest for now, eh? You've been attched to it since that bogus pass interference call four years ago. That's the only reason I even defended Charlie this one, solitary time.

I think Jim's a very good coach. I think Weis can be a very good coach, too.

I'm not the one who started this need to compare the two right now. But if you're going to sing Charlie's praises and tell me the NFL's the ultimate, I'm going to bring you back down to earth. And forget Alvarez, we're talking Tressel and Weis, and right now, head to head, Jim's 1-0. And Jim's been the head coach of national champions. Charlie's been an assistant on Super Bowl winners.

And regarding the "bogus" interference call...go cry in a yellow hanky.

Give his leg a rest Jim!

I can't help it. He looks so fucking hot in that natty sweater vest and tie. And the glasses! He totally rocks my world! I think he's got a hairy chest, too.

I swoon for Tress.

Not so for Weis. I'm not into men heavier than me.

From the waist up!

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Jim Jackson said:
But if you're going to sing Charlie's praises and tell me the NFL's the ultimate, I'm going to bring you back down to earth.

The NFL is the highest level of football. Hence, the ultimate.

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And forget Alvarez, we're talking Tressel and Weis, and right now, head to head, Jim's 1-0.

Yes, 1-0. An insurmountable difference of one game. Tressel, with the powerhouse team he built, vs. Weiss, with the laughing stock he inherited.

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And regarding the "bogus" interference call...go cry in a yellow hanky.

A yellow hanky? Sounds like a sinus infection, dude, you should get that checked out.

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Animalman said:

Yes, 1-0. An insurmountable difference of one game. Tressel, with the powerhouse team he built, vs. Weiss, with the laughing stock he inherited.

I didn't know you went to the rex school of argumentation.

I'm not a Notre Dame fan. Infact, I believe I mentioned in this very thread that I dislike them. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Weiss, either. I respect what he's done with the Irish so far, but I don't think he's the best coach in college football or anything.

Now, if you're saying I'm whiney for pointing out the flaw in your argument, then I guess I'll have to accept that label. Either way, one game does not prove Tressel has the better overall coaching record, especially when you consider the circumstances under which that one game was played. If it did, then you would have to concede that Barry Alvarez trumps them both, and I'm betting you're not willing to do that.

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PJP said:
Give his leg a rest Jim!

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Animalman said:
I didn't know you went to the rex school of argumentation.

I'm not a Notre Dame fan. Infact, I believe I mentioned in this very thread that I dislike them. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Weiss, either. I respect what he's done with the Irish so far, but I don't think he's the best coach in college football or anything.

Now, if you're saying I'm whiney for pointing out the flaw in your argument, then I guess I'll have to accept that label. Either way, one game does not prove Tressel has the better overall coaching record, especially when you consider the circumstances under which that one game was played. If it did, then you would have to concede that Barry Alvarez trumps them both, and I'm betting you're not willing to do that.

The flaw in your argument is that you see Weis' role as an ASSITANT coach in the NFL as superior to Tress' record as HEAD COACH in college.

Why don't you call Charlie and ask him which is better--to be an assistant coach on a Super Bowl champion or a head coach in Div. 1-A college? Nah. You don't need to call and ask him--Chuck's behavior answers the question for you: HE thinks it's better to be the head coach in college than an assistant in the NFL because he *chose* to leave his assistant's job in the NFL and become a head coach in college.

Whether you're a fan of Weis is irrelevant considering that you still wish to pursue this argument.

Regarding who's the better coach? The jury's still out on Weis (which I believe I have already pointed out when I say "let's see him win a few"). But as far as evaluating Weis and Tress, the best measure of that is their record against each other AND as coaches who have been on championship teams, and right now, it's 1-0 in favor of Tress.

If you absurdly want to bring Alvarez into this, please be sure you let me know how many national championships he's won. I'd make the same argument if you brought Lloyd Carr into this. Carr and Tress both have national championships (though Tress didn't have to share his with anybody), so ok, we go to their head-to-head record, and it's Tress 4, Carr 1.

Hey, let's go ahead and bring Joe Pa into this too. Historically speaking, Joe's the better coach than Tress. Joe's got 2 national titles, so that kind of ends the discussion.

I'm not hanging on to Tress blindly. I think he's a very good coach. Maybe in January Weis will have a chance to even up his record against Tress.

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Jim Jackson said:
The flaw in your argument is that you see Weis' role as an ASSITANT coach in the NFL as superior to Tress' record as HEAD COACH in college.

I don't believe I said that. I never compared the roles. What I actually said was that his accomplishments in that role are superior. Afterall, it's not like we're talking about Dennis Erickson or Chan Gailey.

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HE thinks it's better to be the head coach in college than an assistant in the NFL because he *chose* to leave his assistant's job in the NFL and become a head coach in college.

I can only speculate as to his precise motives, but I suspect the fact that he is a Notre Dame graduate played a significant role in his decision. If, for example, he had been offered the Florida job, which was open at the time, I don't think he would have accepted it.

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Whether you're a fan of Weis is irrelevant considering that you still wish to pursue this argument.

You employed the classic "I've got nothing left to say so I'll use this crying graemlin" technique, but since I have nothing invested emotionally in the success of Weiss or Notre Dame, I'd hardly be crying about it, either way. I like discussing sports, and I like to see any good discussion on the subject finished, because there are so few here these days.

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But as far as evaluating Weis and Tress, the best measure of that is their record against each other

I disagree, a point I tried to illustrate by bringing up Alvarez.

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AND as coaches who have been on championship teams

Kind of hard to compare those stats, given Weiss has been in college football a year.

This was fun. Go Bucks.

The crying thing was employed when you mentioned about Tressel's powerhouse Bucks beating up on Weis' ragtag ND team in the Fiesta Bowl.

Why don't you get off his leg Jim!

what are we talking about?

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Jim Jackson said:
The crying thing was employed when you mentioned about Tressel's powerhouse Bucks beating up on Weis' ragtag ND team in the Fiesta Bowl.

Weiss inherited a poor team. Tressel had all his own recruits, his own schemes, his own staff. In my opinion, Weiss had the more remarkable season, especially since ND was down by only one touchdown with 2 minutes left. It was a good, close game(although the yardage difference may have indicated otherwise). Probably my second favorite bowl game that year.

Notre Dame and Oklahoma both lost today, though in very different fashion. Chad Henne's statline wasn't overly impressive against ND, but the Michigan offense looked very impressive. He certainly looked a lot better than Quinn, both with his amstrength and poise in the pocket.

A lot of top 25 teams going head to head this week(14, to be exact).

Interesting development in Louisville, as Brian Brohm left the game with a hand injury. His replacement did well, but for a team that had a very good shot at running the table and competing for a shot at the national championship, losing both Michael Bush and Brian Brohm would be, obviously, devestating.

OK, pardon me, but I'm going to gloat a little.

Anointed Genius Coach Charlie Weis and his Fighting Irish suffered a humiliating defeat yesterday, at home, in Weis' second season on campus.

Jim Tressel's Buckeyes did not lose a game in Tress's second season in Columbus. And Jim inherited a team that was 6-6 in 1999 and 8-4 in 2000. Furthermore, Tress's first Buckeyes team finished 7-5. And Tress inherited Craig Krenzel, a good guy, a smart guy, but one whom no one would mistake for Brady Quinn. So don't say "Wait, Tress had great players and Weis has shit scrubs to work with."

Admittedly, the current season isn't over yet, but it will take a lot of work for Weis' Irish to rebound into title contention and it will remain true that Tress and the Buckeyes won a national championship in Tress's second year. It's far more likely that Weis won't be able to say the same thing about his second year at South Bend that Tressel can say about his second year in Columbus.

Man, Notre Dame got manhandled.

Go Bucks....

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Jim Jackson said:
OK, pardon me, but I'm going to gloat a little.

Anointed Genius Coach Charlie Weis and his Fighting Irish suffered a humiliating defeat yesterday, at home, in Weis' second season on campus.

Jim Tressel's Buckeyes did not lose a game in Tress's second season in Columbus. And Jim inherited a team that was 6-6 in 1999 and 8-4 in 2000. Furthermore, Tress's first Buckeyes team finished 7-5. And Tress inherited Craig Krenzel, a good guy, a smart guy, but one whom no one would mistake for Brady Quinn. So don't say "Wait, Tress had great players and Weis has shit scrubs to work with."

Admittedly, the current season isn't over yet, but it will take a lot of work for Weis' Irish to rebound into title contention and it will remain true that Tress and the Buckeyes won a national championship in Tress's second year. It's far more likely that Weis won't be able to say the same thing about his second year at South Bend that Tressel can say about his second year in Columbus.

I didn't, nor would I, describe Tressel or Weiss's players like that(although, I've never thought Brady Quinn was terrific; I think he's a system quarterback).

I've already said this several times, but you don't seem to quite get it, so I'll say it once more. I never argued who was the better coach, nor did I argue who had the better chance at a national championship this year. In both cases, I said Tressel. The actual debate was over which looked better on a resume, three Super Bowl rings(yes, Jim, as an assistant), or a national championship and a couple of division II titles.

Now, the season is hardly over for Notre Dame. Even if they lose to USC at the end of the year, a 10-2 record will get them a BCS bowl. If they run the table and beat USC, they'll have a pretty good shot at the national championship game.

The SEC teams tend to beat up on each other, so although they're by far the best conference in college football, it seems unlikely they'll produce an undefeated. The Big 12 is a sad shell of what it used to be, and all of their big teams have lost already(Texas, Texas Tech, Nebraska, OU). The ACC is similarly poor.

Which means, hypothetically, if Ohio State goes undefeated, and Notre Dame wins the rest of the way(meaning USC will have lost), there will only be two teams that would realistically stand in their way. One of the two Big East giants of Louisville and West Virginia, and TCU, who already won their biggest challenge of the year and look to have a fairly clear path towards perfection. Alex Smith's undefeated Utah team kind of proved that nobody's going to give the Mountain West Conference much respect in National Championship consideration, so depending on what happens in the Big East, Notre Dame still has a realistic shot at the big game, despite their implosion against Michigan.

The actual debate was over which looked better on a resume, three Super Bowl rings(yes, Jim, as an assistant), or a national championship and a couple of division II titles.

If this truly is the crux of our argument, I will summarize my opinion as this:

If you're hiring for head coaching in college, Tress's resume looks better than Weis'. Jim has won at the college level and won titles at every level of college at which he has worked (with the exception of his couple of seasons as an assistant on Earl Bruce's Ohio State staff in the mid80s). There are examples of former NFL assistants and coaches who have not succeeded at the college game.

If you're hiring for NFL head coach, Weis' resume probably looks better. There are plenty of former college coaches who failed in the NFL.

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Animalman said:
so depending on what happens in the Big East, Notre Dame still has a realistic shot at the big game, despite their implosion against Michigan.

Ohio State has to win out irrespective of what anybody else does to play in Glendale, AZ in January.

Notre Dame has to win out and hope for some others to lose along the way.

Notice here I am not asserting that OSU will win out. I think they can, but I'm not making any foolish predictions.

Animalman, re:

You said

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I didn't, nor would I, describe Tressel or Weiss's players like that

Yet you said

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Tressel, with the powerhouse team he built, vs. Weiss, with the laughing stock he inherited...Weiss inherited a poor team. Tressel had all his own recruits, his own schemes, his own staff

What's up with this, dude? OK, I called them "shitty scrubs" and you called themn a "laughingstock."

When Tress's Buckeyes won it all in '02, his team was still largely John Cooper's.

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Still, if you went around and asked every college coach in America whose list of accomplishments they'd rather have, I bet the significant majority would take Charlie's.

I think this is complete baloney. You ask Bob Stoops if he'd rather have his ring as a head coach or Charlie's 3 as Bill Bellichick's assistant???? How about Lloyd Carr? You think he'd rather be Bill's assistant than the head guy whose team won it all in college? How about Joe Pa? Think he'd give up his 2 titles to call plays for Bill Bellichick?

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Jim Jackson said:
What's up with this, dude? OK, I called them "shitty scrubs" and you called themn a "laughingstock."

Yes, when Weiss stepped in, Notre Dame was in shambles. They were a 6-6 team, under major scrutiny after the firing of Ty Willingham, and with very little going for them as a program.

That doesn't mean their players were all "shitty scrubs". Quinn, Stovall, Walker and Samardzija were all there. There was some talent. Not an enormous amount(otherwise, they would probably have won more), and certainly less of it than Tressel had time to acquire for himself, but some.

It was up to Weiss to change the culture of losing that permeated a once proud university, and get his players to buy into his new schemes and his new philosophy. To that end, he was successful, and surprisngly soon. I doubt many people expected Notre Dame to even be in a BCS bowl game, let alone close to winning one against a team the caliber of Ohio State.

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I think this is complete baloney. You ask Bob Stoops if he'd rather have his ring as a head coach or Charlie's 3 as Bill Bellichick's assistant???? How about Lloyd Carr? You think he'd rather be Bill's assistant than the head guy whose team won it all in college? How about Joe Pa? Think he'd give up his 2 titles to call plays for Bill Bellichick?

I didn't say the coaches would take Weiss's accomplishments over their own. Obviously, Stoops, and Joe Pa are proud of what they've done at that level, as they well should be. I'm saying that I think, objectively, a coach would take three Super Bowl rings over a national title trophy and a few division two titles.

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Animalman said:
I'm saying that I think, objectively, a coach would take three Super Bowl rings over a national title trophy and a few division two titles.

You can't equate the role the coaches had in those championships, which is what you're doing.

Yes, a coach very likely would say he'd rather be Bill Bellichick and have his rings than be Jim Tressel and have his. Or he'd say I'd rather have Charlie Weis' rings than have Mark Dantonio's (Mark was defensive coordinator on the Buckeye's 2002 title team).

But Charlie's rings did not come as head coach. Does that matter? Yeah, I think it does since Charlie quit his assistant coach's job in the NFL to be head coach at ND. If he was satisfied that he was at the pinnacle as an assitant, he would have stayed there.

Wow. Rutgers.

Rutgers.

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PISCATAWAY, N.J. (AP) -- Rutgers has arrived.

The program that once set the standard for college football futility, jumped into the national title picture Thursday night with a 28-25 victory over No. 3 Louisville.

On his second chance, Jeremy Ito kicked a 28-yard tiebreaking field goal with 13 seconds left and the second consecutive primetime showdown between Big East unbeatens went to Rutgers (9-0, 4-0).

Just a week ago, it was Louisville (8-1, 3-1) celebrating the biggest win in school history, a 44-34 victory over West Virginia that vaulted the Cardinals into the heart of the national championship race.

This time it was Rutgers' turn to party.

The Scarlet Knights shut out the high-scoring Cardinals in the second half, erased an 18-point deficit and got the ball with 5:28 left in the fourth quarter at their own 9.

Brian Leonard went 26 yards with a pass in the flats to get Rutgers into Louisville territory and Ray Rice broke a 20-yard run to get into field-goal range. Ito missed a 33-yarder with 18 seconds left but Louisville was offside and Ito got another shot -- and it was perfect.

The final play, appropriately, was a sack by a Rutgers' defense that proved itself as one of the best in the country.

go bears!

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Knutreturns said:
go bears!

Ooooh.....that one's gotta hurt.

Table is set for #1 and #2 to meet next week. Ohio State vs. Michigan in Columbus.

California, Auburn and Texas got knocked off yesterday and Florida survived a scare.