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#295035 2004-05-18 5:24 PM
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Looks like Iraq had biological weapons after all:


    Tests on an artillery shell that blew up in Iraq on Saturday confirm that it did contain an estimated three or four liters of the deadly nerve agent sarin.

    Another shell filled with mustard gas (search), possibly also part of an improvised explosive device (IED) was discovered on May 2, Defense Dept. officials said.

    New weapons caches are being found every day, experts said, including "hundreds of thousands" of rocket-propelled grenades and portable anti-aircraft weapons.

    "Clearly, if we're gonna find one or two of these every so often — used as an IED or some other way — the threat is not all that high, but it does confirm suspicion that he [Saddam] did have this stuff," said Ret. U.S. Army Col. Robert Maginnis.

    An Iraqi Kurdish official had no doubt similar substances will be found as the weapons hunt continues.

    "We don't know where they are, but we suspect they are hidden in many locations in Iraq," Howar Ziad, the Kurdish representative to the United Nations, told Fox News on Tuesday. "It's quite possible that even the neighboring states who are against the reform of Iraq ... are helping the Saddamites in hiding."

    "As we know, the Baathist regime had a track record of using" these chemicals against people in Iraq, such as the Kurds, Ziad continued. "He's [Saddam] never kept any commitment he's ever made to the international committee nor to the people" to not use such deadly materials.


Do his opponents owe President Bush an apology?

the G-man #295036 2004-05-18 8:46 PM
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That's hardly the question. If they do, they won't, and they'd never acknowledge being wrong anyway. And there's not enough hard evidence yet to be positive they're wrong. I'd like to see how this plays out over the next few days before expecting anyone on the left side to apologize.

Not that I'd expect them to anyway.


go.

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Well this was started in my thread here.


It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
Batwoman #295038 2004-05-19 12:02 AM
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Batwoman #295039 2004-05-19 12:06 AM
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I read somewhere 90% of 3rd world countries have that kind of stuff. It doesn't justify any invasion. Is it any suprise that he kept some minor weapons? We've been applying sanctions to them and periodically launching missiles at them for over 10 years.

If this guy was such a menace, why didn't he use these on our soldiers? Iraq wasn't even a threat to Kuwait anymore.


FREE SCOTT PETERSON! "Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
JQ #295040 2004-05-19 3:02 AM
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It's a wait & see type of thing. Also it may be a good thing politically for the President if there is lots of Sarin gas out there but not for our soldiers. Be careful for what you wish for!


Fair play!
JQ #295041 2004-05-20 7:58 PM
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Quote:

JQ said:
We've been applying sanctions to them and periodically launching missiles at them for over 10 years.







...actually they brought the sanctions and missle attacks on themesleves by a lil invasion of kuwait but why let the facts get in the way of a michael moore moment!

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Didn't that war end less than a year later?


FREE SCOTT PETERSON! "Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
JQ #295043 2004-05-20 10:07 PM
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Yes, and that's when their breaking of the sanctions they agreed to began...

http://www.usembassy-amman.org.jo/3ClIrq.html

MisterJLA #295044 2004-05-20 10:51 PM
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yeah, if you read the UN resolution's JQ all Iraq had to do was abide by them and the sanctions could have ended, we ended up in our current situation because of that. If Iraq had never invaded Kuwait Saddam could still be happily torturing and killing thousands.....

Irwin Schwab #295045 2004-05-21 12:28 AM
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Poor JQ...



"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

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Quote:

Matter-eater Man said:
It's a wait & see type of thing. Also it may be a good thing politically for the President if there is lots of Sarin gas out there but not for our soldiers. Be careful for what you wish for!




The "rolleyes" emoticon cannot truly encapsulate the depth of my emotion towards this comment.

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You can't argue with that.


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rex #1124049 2010-08-02 4:23 PM
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From back in June 2008 :


"Contrary to lack of media coverage, WMD's have been found in Iraq" topic, 6-8-2008:

 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy
 Quote:


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213


CONTRARY TO LACK OF MEDIA COVERAGE, WMD'S FOUND IN IRAQ

New evidence out of Iraq suggests the U.S. effort to track down Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction is having better success than is being reported.
Key assertions by the intelligence community widely judged in the media and by critics of President Bush as having been false are turning out to have been true after all.

But this stunning news has received little attention from the major media, and the president's critics continue to insist that "no weapons" have been found.

In virtually every case -- chemical, biological, nuclear and ballistic missiles -- the United States has found the weapons and the programs that the Iraqi dictator successfully concealed for 12 years from U.N. weapons inspectors.

The Iraq Survey Group, ISG, whose intelligence analysts are managed by Charles Duelfer, a former State Department official and deputy chief of the U.N.-led arms-inspection teams, has found "hundreds of cases of activities that were prohibited" under U.N. Security Council resolutions, a senior administration official tells Insight.

"There is a long list of charges made by the U.S. that have been confirmed, but none of this seems to mean anything because the weapons that were unaccounted for by the United Nations remain unaccounted for."

Both Duelfer and his predecessor, David Kay, reported to Congress that the evidence they had found on the ground in Iraq showed Saddam's regime was in "material violation" of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the last of 17 resolutions that promised "serious consequences" if Iraq did not make a complete disclosure of its weapons programs and dismantle them in a verifiable manner.

The United States cited Iraq's refusal to comply with these demands as one justification for going to war.

Both Duelfer and Kay found Iraq had "a clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses with equipment that was suitable to continuing its prohibited chemical- and biological-weapons [BW] programs," the official said. "They found a prison laboratory where we suspect they tested biological weapons on human subjects."

They found equipment for "uranium-enrichment centrifuges" whose only plausible use was as part of a clandestine nuclear-weapons program. In all these cases, "Iraqi scientists had been told before the war not to declare their activities to the U.N. inspectors," the official said.




Yep, no evidence at all.

Just a bunch of Iraqi scientists with all the components of a weapons program, ready to go into production, after U.N. sanctions would have been lifted.

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 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy
Sure the spaghetti is cheaper but with the turkey you know what you're getting.

good point.


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The Secret Casualties of Iraq’s Abandoned Chemical Weapons



 Quote:
by C.J. Chivers (part 1, of 2)


It was August 2008 near Taji, Iraq. They had just exploded a stack of old Iraqi artillery shells buried beside a murky lake. The blast, part of an effort to destroy munitions that could be used in makeshift bombs, uncovered more shells.

Two technicians assigned to dispose of munitions stepped into the hole. Lake water seeped in. One of them, Specialist Andrew T. Goldman, noticed a pungent odor, something, he said, he had never smelled before.

He lifted a shell. Oily paste oozed from a crack. “That doesn’t look like pond water,” said his team leader, Staff Sgt. Eric J. Duling.

The specialist swabbed the shell with chemical detection paper. It turned red — indicating sulfur mustard, the chemical warfare agent designed to burn a victim’s airway, skin and eyes.

All three men recall an awkward pause. Then Sergeant Duling gave an order: “Get the hell out.”

Five years after President George W. Bush sent troops into Iraq, these soldiers had entered an expansive but largely secret chapter of America’s long and bitter involvement in Iraq.

From 2004 to 2011, American and American-trained Iraqi troops repeatedly encountered, and on at least six occasions were wounded by, chemical weapons remaining from years earlier in Saddam Hussein’s rule.

In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs, according to interviews with dozens of participants, Iraqi and American officials, and heavily redacted intelligence documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.




The United States had gone to war declaring it must destroy an active weapons of mass destruction program. Instead, American troops gradually found and ultimately suffered from the remnants of long-abandoned programs, built in close collaboration with the West.

The New York Times found 17 American service members and seven Iraqi police officers who were exposed to nerve or mustard agents after 2003. American officials said that the actual tally of exposed troops was slightly higher, but that the government’s official count was classified.

The secrecy fit a pattern. Since the outset of the war, the scale of the United States’ encounters with chemical weapons in Iraq was neither publicly shared nor widely circulated within the military. These encounters carry worrisome implications now that the Islamic State, a Qaeda splinter group, controls much of the territory where the weapons were found.

The American government withheld word about its discoveries even from troops it sent into harm’s way and from military doctors. The government’s secrecy, victims and participants said, prevented troops in some of the war’s most dangerous jobs from receiving proper medical care and official recognition of their wounds.


“I felt more like a guinea pig than a wounded soldier,” said a former Army sergeant who suffered mustard burns in 2007 and was denied hospital treatment and medical evacuation to the United States despite requests from his commander.

Congress, too, was only partly informed, while troops and officers were instructed to be silent or give deceptive accounts of what they had found. “ 'Nothing of significance’ is what I was ordered to say,” said Jarrod Lampier, a recently retired Army major who was present for the largest chemical weapons discovery of the war: more than 2,400 nerve-agent rockets unearthed in 2006 at a former Republican Guard compound.

Jarrod L. Taylor, a former Army sergeant on hand for the destruction of mustard shells that burned two soldiers in his infantry company, joked of “wounds that never happened” from “that stuff that didn’t exist.” The public, he said, was misled for a decade. “I love it when I hear, ‘Oh there weren’t any chemical weapons in Iraq,’ ” he said. “There were plenty.”


Rear Adm. John Kirby, spokesman for Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, declined to address specific incidents detailed in the Times investigation, or to discuss the medical care and denial of medals for troops who were exposed. But he said that the military’s health care system and awards practices were under review, and that Mr. Hagel expected the services to address any shortcomings.

“The secretary believes all service members deserve the best medical and administrative support possible,” he said. “He is, of course, concerned by any indication or allegation they have not received such support. His expectation is that leaders at all levels will strive to correct errors made, when and where they are made.”

The discoveries of these chemical weapons did not support the government’s invasion rationale.

After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bush insisted that Mr. Hussein was hiding an active weapons of mass destruction program, in defiance of international will and at the world’s risk. United Nations inspectors said they could not find evidence for these claims.

Then, during the long occupation, American troops began encountering old chemical munitions in hidden caches and roadside bombs. Typically 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets, they were remnants of an arms program Iraq had rushed into production in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.

All had been manufactured before 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all. Some were empty, though many of them still contained potent mustard agent or residual sarin. Most could not have been used as designed, and when they ruptured dispersed the chemical agents over a limited area, according to those who collected the majority of them.

In case after case, participants said, analysis of these warheads and shells reaffirmed intelligence failures. First, the American government did not find what it had been looking for at the war’s outset, then it failed to prepare its troops and medical corps for the aged weapons it did find.


As Iraq has been shaken anew by violence, and past security gains have collapsed amid Sunni-Shiite bloodletting and the rise of the Islamic State, this long-hidden chronicle illuminates the persistent risks of the country’s abandoned chemical weapons.

Many chemical weapons incidents clustered around the ruins of the Muthanna State Establishment, the center of Iraqi chemical agent production in the 1980s.

Since June, the compound has been held by the Islamic State, the world’s most radical and violent jihadist group. In a letter sent to the United Nations this summer, the Iraqi government said that about 2,500 corroded chemical rockets remained on the grounds, and that Iraqi officials had witnessed intruders looting equipment before militants shut down the surveillance cameras.


The United States government says the abandoned weapons no longer pose a threat. But nearly a decade of wartime experience showed that old Iraqi chemical munitions often remained dangerous when repurposed for local attacks in makeshift bombs, as insurgents did starting by 2004.

Participants in the chemical weapons discoveries said the United States suppressed knowledge of finds for multiple reasons, including that the government bristled at further acknowledgment it had been wrong. “They needed something to say that after Sept. 11 Saddam used chemical rounds,” Mr. Lampier said. “And all of this was from the pre-1991 era.”

Others pointed to another embarrassment. In five of six incidents in which troops were wounded by chemical agents, the munitions appeared to have been designed in the United States, manufactured in Europe and filled in chemical agent production lines built in Iraq by Western companies.

Nonproliferation officials said the Pentagon’s handling of many of the recovered warheads and shells appeared to violate the Convention on Chemical Weapons. According to this convention, chemical weapons must be secured, reported and destroyed in an exacting and time-consuming fashion.

The American government did not find what it had been looking for at the war’s outset, then it failed to prepare its troops and medical corps for the aged weapons it did find.

The Pentagon did not follow the steps, but says that it adhered to the convention’s spirit. “These suspect weapons were recovered under circumstances in which prompt destruction was dictated by the need to ensure that the chemical weapons could not threaten the Iraqi people, neighboring states, coalition forces, or the environment,” said Jennifer Elzea, a Pentagon spokeswoman.

The convention, she added, “did not envisage the conditions found in Iraq.”

Nonetheless, several participants said the United States lost track of chemical weapons that its troops found, left large caches unsecured, and did not warn people — Iraqis and foreign troops alike — as it hastily exploded chemical ordnance in the open air.

This was the secret world Sergeant Duling and his soldiers entered in August 2008 as they stood above the leaking chemical shell. The sergeant spoke into a radio, warning everyone back.

“This is mustard agent,” he said, announcing the beginning of a journey of inadequate medical care and honors denied. “We’ve all been exposed.”







So a month ago, W. Bush was proven right in his consequences of leaving Iraq too early. As Obama did in 2011, and what Bush predicted came to pass.

And Bush was right again about chemical weapons in Iraq (granted manufactured pre-1991, and deteriorated, but still piled up in the thousands in multiple locations [see map], and still even in deteriorated form used in crude explosives by pro-Saddam insurrectionists and Al Qaida).

The N.Y. Yimes is reporting this, but not near the level of media saturation as when they called Bush an idiot who fought an illegal war, arguing there were no WMD's.

Conversely, it also deeply annoys me that (as under Obama for different self-serving reasons) the Bush administration for self-serving reasons exposed U.S. soldiers, and soldiers of the new Iraq, to Mustard gas and other toxic agents, and for self-serving reasons never told soldiers that they were exposed to these chemical weapons, denied them medals for their injuries from these chemical weapons, and by denying them recognition for their injuries in military service, also denied them medical care for these injuries.

In this respect, W. Bush (or whoever made that call. Bush himself? Rumsfeld? Gates? the Joint Chiefs?) is just as bad as Obama. Soldiers who serve need to know that in appreciation for risking their lives, the government will have their backs if something happens to them.
What is clear instead is contempt --by administrations of both parties! --for those who risk their lives. Soldiers whose very lives are callously toseed away, just so both administrations can have plausible deniability and the political spin they want.


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