RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Comic Books hal vs kyle - the rkmb edition

so? who is yer favorite GL? is it even one of these two?

did DC make the right decision by bringing in a "permanent" (as far as comics go) hal replacement?

should hal make a return?

does kyle fit in better with the JLA?

G'Nort Best. Green Lantern. Ever.

Hal was always my favourite GL,in fact he's always been my favourite hero,period!

I'm still pissed that Hal went nuts.

I always liked Kilowog and John Stewart...

Hal was always one of my favorites. Grew up watching Superfriends, and I just liked the quiet, background guys from the Silver Age. Not the Big 3, but I thought a good JLA would consist of Hal, Ollie, Katar and Shayera Hol (Kubert and Gardner Fox), J'Onn Jonzz, Barry Allen, Adam Strange, and Captain Comet.

Anyways, few of those people remain. Katar and Shayera were retconned out of continuity, Barry Allen is dead, Captain Comet is somewhere, but he makes appearances every decade. Adam Strange gets the nice cameos. Ollie has his series, but he went to hell and back.

And Hal? He did the same. I wasn't overly pleased when they made him go postal. It was a sad, and disappointing effort to bring closure to his reign as green lantern. It tainted everything he had done, and made all look very bad. So, asides from killing green lanterns in his quest for power, he also killed people and was responsible for the deaths of others in Zero Hour. Messing up his role in the DC universe even more.

Replacement-wise, Kyle was a stretch. I mean, I don't know how Marz got approval for it. Supposed to be Gen X stuff I guess. Weak character, kind of a rocker, starving artist and blank slate. Hopelessly neurotic and lacking confidence. Seemed a little too emotional.

I would have drown comparisons to Peter Parker, back in the 60s, except that character was a bit more interesting. He had some enemies in his normal social life (Flash Thompson) and it tried to discuss his personal life--Gwen, Mary Jane, Harry Osborn, Aunt May, school, etc.

But Marz and company generally avoided, to my knowledge, Kyle's personal life. There was his ex-girlfriend, who he got back together with. The photographer. She ups and dies, and that was supposed to be his big thrust of responsibility or something. But there was nothing established early on.

He was, to me, and still is, a weak character.

In the JLA, he was the whiny one. But whatever, everyone needed personality. I liked Geffin's JLA work a hell of a lot more than Morrison's. Rock of Ages was good, but Waids 2 issue stint on Mystery in Space was good too.

Back to Hal and Kyle-- Hal was mature and a leader. Kyle, generally immature and always figthing for acceptance. Not just among the readers, but within the pages of the comic. People can easily justify that as being an amateur, which makes sense from a writing standpoint, but if you want to create a character that will last, you give them a background, establish them quick, and get them adjusted quick.

Didn't happen.

Plus, people were bothered that Hal was somewhere out there, always potential he could come back. And that he left on an ill note meant things needed to be rectified. One of the signs that writers make mistakes and those mistakes can be fixed. Kind of takes away from quality of comics, if indeed, there is quality. Because it means, "Oh, if you don't like that, we can just change it later." Case in point--Most of Marvel continuity. Heroes reborn, Ultimate stuff, Spider-man clone.

Kyle is my least favorite Green Lantern character. Hal was and always will be my favorite.

truthfully, i've never really liked either hal or kyle. not that i hate either of them, i'm just not overly interested in either character. the green lantern book doesn't appeal to me. never has.

again, i'm not sayin i hate it ... it just doesn't interest me.

but jla did. specifically the resurgeance of this current edition.

i thought kyle was great for morrison's JLA (as was the rest of morrison's JLA). he was a great addition and really got to showcase himself. his powers and creations were varied, his will was steady(ing), his confidence was perfect for that of who he was -- a rookie amongst gods. great characterization, and great dialog between him and the other charaters. he was one of the most enjoyable aspects of the run.

hal, on the other hand, i loved as the bad guy -- the fallen angel. the parallax storyline was fantastic (tho the wavering motive clearly weakened it). the parallax costume was also pretty bad ass. but most appealing was the fact that this guy, whom the jla had all known and trusted for decades, was all of a sudden more powerful than all of them combined ... and pretty frickin angry.

the thoughts of "what could have been" always make me angry that they later (and in almost identical inexplicable fashion) returned hal to the good guy life in final night... then watered him down further as the spectre.

if they had only kept parallax around -- a near omnipotent being, with all the sercrets and personal connections to the jla... he could have been the ultimate villain, popping up every so often, playing with their heads and established friendships... it could have been fantastic.

Interesting way of putting things, I can understand that. I guess, my problem is that it was Hal who went bad. Like I said, he was basically my favorite hero. Had it been Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Doctor Fate, hell, Guy Gardner (could see THAT coming), then what would I care? But it's the pre-existing sentimental attachment fans have.


Take a golden ager and make him go bad. Someone from JSA... Carter Hall, Alan Scott. whoever.

Arisia is the best. Or was the best.

I could never figure out why post-Crisis Hal was so old. He should have been significantly de-aged rather than having the white temples. It made no sense in a continuity frame of mind.

The post-crisis world has been a mess.

I don't hate Kyle, but the horrible Nutso Hal story would have made me a bit prejudiced against any replacement.

Man...tough call.

I've liked both Hal and Kyle over the years. Their GL comics were both among the ealiest superheroes I ever read and collected (in fact, I used to have more GL comics than any other character, until Batman and The Flash caught up). The days of the Green lantern Corps and the Guardians were, in my opinion, sci-fi at it's greatest. It was one of the most epic sci-fi fantasy stories ever created. I didn't really care too much for "Emerald Dawn" - I thought it was an interesting idea, but the execution seemed flawed. I'm also not too sure I liked what they did with the Guardians and the purprose of the GLC (preserving order instead of fighting evil.) But I did like the Hal adventures, as long as the writing was good, as it often was.

As for Kyle, like I said, he was one of my firsts, so what may have been old hat for some fans was fresh and new to me, so I enjoyed watching him find his place. If I'd been more of a comic reader before discovering Kyle, who knows what I would have thought of him? But he's definitely come a long way, and except for when Judd Winick was writing, the Kyle Rayner GREEN LATERN comics were my favorite title (Ben Raab is slowly winning me back).

I also really liked the idea of Hal becoming Parallax. If you think about it, it seems appropriate, because it follows the theme of "the greatest GL becoms evil, and the new guy has to take him down." When Hal was a rookie in training, Sinestro was the greatest of the GLs, until he went to far and became a dictator, and Hal was the one to take him down. Then Hal became the greatest, and then he went insane, and now the new rookie, Kyle, has to take him down. Rob's right - Parallax would have made the perfect arch-enemy for Kyle, following in the footsteps of the Hal-Sinestro feud.

That, and Hal was actually kind of interesting as Parallax - he really does want to "set things right," and he's not really evil. When you can see things from his point of view, he's actually a very tragic character. You almost feel sorry for him, the way you might feel sorry for Magneto in certain stories.

Best. Green. Lantern. Ever.

I also grew up with the Hal GL.

I also quite liked him as a character.

But for better or for worse. Hal went nuts. He died.

Kyle is now GL. Well unless you count John Stewart... or Alan Scott...

But I digress.

Personally I also like Kyle. Hal may have the willpower, but I do enjoy Kyle's creativity.

Though they weild the same weapon, share the same identity, they are different heroes.

Plus Hal is now the Spectre. I would prefer to keep this arrangement, than have the usual hero "resurrection" scenario

Plus, we don't seem to have this debate over Barry or Wally.

Though I wonder if we'll be having this debate about Ronnie Raymond or the new Firestorm in the next few months?

Isn't "Hal" short for "Harold"?

"Harold Jordan" sounds like a brand of shoe polish my grandfather might use.

I thought he was "Haley Joel Osment Jordan".

Hal's origin: "I shall give the ring to the strongest, bravest human being on the planet with the whitest teeth and perfect physique and skill to match." How is this in anyway remotely interesting? It's like if Superman got the ring, a rocket ship, and Spider-Man's girlfriend, plus a lifetime supply of Baby Ruths. His descent into evil was the best thing to ever happen to him, like in the classical tragedies where the hero is a King (that is, the perfect specimen of man) with one character flaw that brings about his downfall.

He was pretty compelling in the "New Frontier" comic, though. Because it wasn't a classical interpretation of the character.

Kyle: Average Joe gets the ring in the middle of a huge crisis amongst the Green Lanterns. Has no idea what to do as he's tossed into something he didn't ask for. Supervillains left and right are suddenly clamoring to kill his girlfriend and stuff her in his fridge. Now that's fucking interesting. Plus, he's an artist, which makes for great use of his ring visually (which was very well put to use in JLA), which is why John Stewart can't do anything but create green bubbles in the Justice League cartoon, due to his utter lack of creativity. Very utilitarian and such.

Disco, your analysis points out, however, how a good writer could have looked at Hal's origin even slightly different and made him an interesting character w/o making him nuts then evil.

Think about it: what an alien, or alien race, might have thought were the perfect traits (eg, a "Man without fear"), might not be perfect traits in Earth society.

In the case of Green Lantern, we could have kept Hal, kept him sane, but made him a slightly more skewed, and interesting, character.

Make him a bit of an a-hole. A gunslinger. A cop. An "Ollie North meets Capt. Kirk" type.

Have him great at handling intersteller menaces, but crappy at home. Make him "the Great Santini" with a ring.

Ultimately, the "Green Lantern Corps" was a group of Cops.

And conflicted, shades of grey, cops can be hella interesting (see, eg, NYPD Blue, the Shield, Training Day, etc.)

And, let's face it, Kyle hasn't set the world on fire either. So it's not like this was an experiment that WORKED.

I like them both alot........but I like Hal a little bit more than Kyle.

Ditto, but the othe way 'round!

I like them all. Hal, John, Guy, Kyle, Alan... it doesn't really matter. I think there's a place for them all. They all offer something different to the ring.

Hal Jordan - What I liked about Hal was when compared to Clark Kent's All-American image, Bruce Wayne's charming playboy wit, or Barry Allen's remarkable intelligence, Hal (the death defying test pilot) was more daring and willing to take risks. Hal was also daring enough to challenge authority and his superiors on occasion (something Denny O'Neil picked up on and emphasized when he wrote GL/GA) and made him more of a rebel.

When Hal left the first time, it was because he had enough with his responsibilities, no longer saw eye to eye with The Guardians of the Universe, and just wanted to be with Carol.

The one thing I always got from Hal was that even though he was a superhero/cop his ideals/morals always came first. He was always kind of torn. Especially when it came to Carol Ferris/Star Sapphire.

Alan Scott - I always liked the mystery that surrounds his ring and powers. I wish they'd delve a little deeper into that.

John Stewart - I hate how they've misused him over the years. John's an architect and should be just as creative as Kyle but also more practical in his approach. Kyle is an artist (who tend to be about style and form) John as an architect should be about form and function.

Guy Gardner - The reason I like Guy as GL is because I related to him more than any other superhero. In a lot of ways me and Guy were alike. Guy used to hide his insecurities behind his gruff exterior and only his feelings for Ice made him get past that at times. Kind of like when I first had my accident (I broke my neck and am wheelchair bound now) I was a complete jerk to everyone I knew and cared about and I couldn't have cared less about it. Then there's the fact that Guy didn't always use his ring for good. I also kind of relate to this because when I got my settlement money I didn't exactly use it to benefit myself in a positive manner (sex, drugs, and rock n' roll baby) Then there's the fact he always felt under appreciated by his peers (even though he was one of the most powerful members of the League at that time) This I relate to as well. It's like some people think that just because I'm in a wheelchair that I'm totally helpless, and it ticks me off. I also liked how he played bad cop to Hal and John's good cop. He was such a hardcore badman GL (especially under Wolfman) and I liked the idea of him being "The Fist of The Guardians".

Kyle Rayner - The thing I like about Kyle is that he has fun with his ring (just like Hal did when he was younger) I don't really relate to him or anything but I do enjoy his creativity.

I just wish there were a few more Green Lantern books, because it makes more sense to me to create a GL franchise, than a Superman or Batman franchise (because Superman and Batman really only need two monthly books, and I find the amount of books they have is really diluting their concept, IMO. Where as, you could have multiple GL's each starring in their own monthly)

There's only ONE Green Lantern........ G'NORT!!!!

i was agreein!

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't Guy Gardner supposed to be earth's Green Lantern but Hal got chosen because he was closer to Abin Sur?

Talk about stolen limelights.

You know, I read through all of the posts on this board, and I have to say that save for a few posts it's complete bunk. I admit, when I was a kid Hal Jordan had been Green Lantern for damn near thirty years. So certainly, in that sense, he was 'the' Green Lantern. But let's face it, boys and girls. Jordan was in no way superior to any other comic book Green Lantern.

If anything, in my humble opinion, Kyle Rayner is a better representation of the ideals of the Green Lantern. Despite the trials of his life, he remained firm in his defense of Earth and the galaxy. Even when he was granted omnipotence when the Spectre gave him the power Paralax wielded, he remained 'human', for lack of a better term.

In the sense of the character, between Hal and Kyle, I see Rayner as being superior. For one thing, he was more like the ominous golden age Green Lantern, Alan Scott. For another, where Hal lacked dimension as a character, you can pick up most of Kyle's life story throughout the Emerald Twilight storyline, if you really pay attention.

As far as John Stewart and Guy Gardner go, they were Green Lanterns for a time. But John Stewart left the corps to be a Darkstar, and Gardner turned down the ring when it was offered to him (Green Lantern Secret Files No. 1, if I'm not mistaken). So don't bash Rayner just because you happen to be biased towards the silver age; if ever there was a superior Green Lantern, it was Jack T. Chance.

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"You who are wicked, evil, and mean -
- I'm the nastiest creep you've *ever* seen!
Come one, come all; put up a fight;
I'll pound your butts with Green Lantern's light.
Yowza."

How about giving the ring to a turd sandwich?

The turd without fear!

The problem with Kyle was that he had no connection to the Green Lantern mythos.

Hal Jordan never had a kid sidekick like the Flash, and so there was no logical successor to Jordan other than John Stewart. I have always been scathing of DC's decision not to entrust the most powerful weapon in the universe to a black man - it was a commercial cop out because sales of comics with black characters traditionally don't do too well (explicitly recognised by Christopher Priest in the foreward to the first Black Panther tpb).

Kyle was an anonymous white guy who got the ring, and people hated his anonymity. If they wanted to maintain some sort of continuity legacy, and they should have to appease fans, why not give it to an established hero like Adam Strange, the Creeper, or Captain Comet, or do the Witchblade cheesecake thing with Starfire.

Having said that, I did very much like the depiction of GL in Morrison's JLA: Earth 2 (which is the only time I've read a story with the character in it), because Kyle did come across as quite different from the rest of the characters - he was trying his best, as opposed to supremely confident.

My point is, Hal Jordan was the iconic Green Lantern. He was the epitome of everything the Guardians thought a Green Lantern should be, and as such was praised. And in his own rite, Hal Jordan was a great hero.

Rayner, on the other hand, was executed much more realistically. He wasn't perfect; he made mistakes; he was a cocky son of a bitch. And that made him exactly the kind of Green Lantern the Corps needed.

Now, there was mention of giving the ring to an established hero. That would be a mistake in every sense of the word. Heroes need to be different. That's probably why they switched out Hal when they did; he was Superman with a ring. He was boring. They had to do something, or they would have lost their readers.

I am quite fond of Kyle Rayner as the Green Lantern. Like I said before, he's not the iconic Lantern; he's human. Always a good thing.

This is all a moot point; They're bringing back Jordan anyway.

I also will go with Kyle, if for no other reason than he's (for the most part) portrayed consistently. Hal on the other hand, was portrayed as a wild free-wheeling type whenever he was with Flash, and a straight-laced no-nonsense type when he was paired with Green Arrow. The hell?

The problem with the Kyle era is they got away fro the basic GL concept of space cop.

By destroying the corps and making him sole GL they removed what was different about GL. He was just another pajama wearer.

Kyle Rayner: the first Green Lantern to wet his pants on the job. (OK, make that second... I forgot about G'nort.)

I have to agree on the whole Mythos thing. Although for different reasons. You're right that Kyle had no connection to the Green Lantern. But in all truths, neither did Hal. In fact, the only Green Lantern who really had a connection to the 'Mythos' was John Stewart, the Opener of Doors (Guess what that alludes towards?).

But I disagree that Stewart was the logical successor. He was already a Green Lantern. What's the point of passing the torch, so to speak, to another Green Lantern? My point is, they NEEDED to get away from Hal Jordan. He was too good. And Stewart was a lot of the same. Besides, he was already the frontman in the Mosaic storyline of the early nineties.

There is also the matter of the aforementioned Morrison's JLA: Earth 2 storyline, which supports my standpoint; Kyle's fear is the very thing that made him great.

An SNES video game that didn't actually come out.