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The thread about liberals hating President Bush seemed to be going off topic into whether or not they hate the United States.
So, rather than let that thread spiral off-topic any more than necessary, here is a corrollary thread: Do Liberals Hate America?
Richard Cohen, a liberal columnist for the Washington Post worries that they do. He writes:
[The] tendency to blame America for the moral shortcomings of others unfortunately permeates the left and the Democratic Party.
I got the first whiff of it after Sept. 11 when some people reacted to the terrorist attacks here by blaming U.S. policy -- in the Middle East specifically but around the world in general.
The same sort of reasoning -- if it can be called that -- surfaced before and during the war with Iraq. Although I supported the war, I could always understand some of the arguments against it. But I could not understand those who said the war was about oil or empire or reconstruction contracts and who seemed to think that Saddam Hussein was the lesser of two evils -- the United States being the greater, of course.
Below the surface of this reasoning seethes a perplexing animosity toward the United States -- not the people but the government and the economic system.
Then there's these pictures from recent American anti-war protests:
And the fact that the organizers of the "anti-war" movement are part of an anti-America group:
The major anti-U.S. government demonstrations are organized by the Workers World Party, "Not in Our Name" and "International A.N.S.W.E.R."
A.N.S.W.E.R. is an offshoot of the International Action Center, a front for the Worker's World Party.
The Worker's World Party has existed for more than 30 years now and has always supported the enemies of the United States. The Workers World Party describes itself as Marxist in nature. The Workers World Party supports North Korea's brutal regime.
Not in Our Name is financed by a million-dollar-a-year non-profit that supports Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and Sami Al-Arian, charged with fundraising for terrorist organizations Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
Is Cohen right?
Do his fellow liberals "always blame America first"?
Last edited by the G-man; 2004-04-08 3:49 AM.
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Yeah, and Whomod's the one who needs mental help!
These liberals really bother you, don't they? Were you ever bullied by hippies?
FREE SCOTT PETERSON!
"Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
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As Senator John McCain once said, "we're all corrupt"(referring, of course, to politicians). Half joking, half telling the truth, McCain was voicing his frustration with a governmental system that promotes individuality but rewards conformity. A system where candidates are elected not based on how qualified they are, but by how much money they put into their campaigns.
I think liberals in America are simply dissatisfied with the state of our country. They want something different, something better.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
The thread about liberals hating President Bush seemed to be going off topic into whether or not they hate the United States.
So, rather than let that thread spiral off-topic any more than necessary, here is a corrollary thread: Do Liberals Hate America?
I'm going to make the same comment I made on this thread as I did on the other one. Some probably do, some definitely don't. Even if a majority of liberals do, I know for a fact that there are some who don't. There are some who will say "all liberals do," and that's unfair to liberals who don't (just as any other stereotype or careless label is unfair).
Just for the sake of discussion, how do you guys define "hating America?" How broad is our definition of "hate?" Wishing harm on American citizens and residents, and the government is obvious. Blaming America first when it's definitely not our fault...yeah. But besides that, how else do we classify "hating America?" Can we say hating conservatives or liberals, or hating Democrats or Republicans is hating America, since our hatred is directed towards our fellow American citizens? The two sides obviosuly disagree on a lot of issues, but disagreeing with ideals and politics isn't the same as hatred. At least, not in my opinion.
Quote:
Richard Cohen, a liberal columnist for the Washington Post worries that they do. He writes:
[The] tendency to blame America for the moral shortcomings of others unfortunately permeates the left and the Democratic Party.
I got the first whiff of it after Sept. 11 when some people reacted to the terrorist attacks here by blaming U.S. policy -- in the Middle East specifically but around the world in general.
The same sort of reasoning -- if it can be called that -- surfaced before and during the war with Iraq. Although I supported the war, I could always understand some of the arguments against it. But I could not understand those who said the war was about oil or empire or reconstruction contracts and who seemed to think that Saddam Hussein was the lesser of two evils -- the United States being the greater, of course.
Below the surface of this reasoning seethes a perplexing animosity toward the United States -- not the people but the government and the economic system.
Obviously, this is just one man's opinion. He has the right to it, and its no more or less valid than any other opinion I've heard, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.
Then again, these days, how the heck do we even know who's right and what's true, no matter how many people say so? Especially in the midst of what may be the ugliest presidential campaign in our nation's history, with vicious, extremist propaganda all over the place. (A far cry from Bob Dole's comment about his campaign against Clinton - that Clinton was his opponent, not his enemy, and that's the way it should be in politics. And he was absolutely right. But I'm side-tracking. So moving along...)
BTW, I've never heard anybody say that the US was worse than Saddam (at least, not that I can recall off the top of my head). Are there any articles where someone actually makes this claim (without someone else "quoting them?" As a general rule, I'm suspicious of quotes taken out of context.)
Quote:
Then there's these pictures from recent American anti-war protests:
And the fact that the organizers of the "anti-war" movement are part of an anti-America group:
The major anti-U.S. government demonstrations are organized by the Workers World Party, "Not in Our Name" and "International A.N.S.W.E.R."
A.N.S.W.E.R. is an offshoot of the International Action Center, a front for the Worker's World Party.
The Worker's World Party has existed for more than 30 years now and has always supported the enemies of the United States. The Workers World Party describes itself as Marxist in nature. The Workers World Party supports North Korea's brutal regime.
Not in Our Name is financed by a million-dollar-a-year non-profit that supports Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and Sami Al-Arian, charged with fundraising for terrorist organizations Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
These guys are definitely anti-American, and definitely sickos. But that doesn't mean they're liberals.
BTW, what is the third photo? What's it supposed to be a picture of?
Quote:
Is Cohen right?
Do his fellow liberals "always blame America first"?
Many certainly do. The question is, when liberals blame America first, do they do so purely out of hate, or do they blame America first because maybe we actually did screw up somewhere down the line? We're not perfect, and we can't always see our own mistakes.
If we screw up, and someone says "this is where you screwed up, here's how you can fix it," or "here's how to make sure you don't make the same mistake again," I think that's being a responsible citizen.
When someone just says "it's America's fault" no matter what the circumstances, that person's being an asshole or is just plain stupid.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2004-04-08 7:19 AM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I think liberals in America are simply dissatisfied with the state of our country. They want something different, something better.
I agree. However, I think that conservatives also want to make things better. They want to do what they feel is the right thing, just as liberals do. Liberals and conservatives just don't agree on what the right thing to do is, or how to do it. If they spent more time discussing their differences and trying to work things out instead of slamming each other, I think real progress could be made in this country.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
BTW, what is the third photo? What's it supposed to be a picture of?
An American flag at an Army recruiting station in Ithaca, NY that had blood thrown on it by protesters.
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Sure, it's okay to oppose war, but to actively claim that the US. should be destroyed if there is to be peace, to throw blood on it's flag, to support and encourage the killing of officers, that's too much!
That ain't opposing a war, that's supporting the enemy
 Racks be to MisterJLA
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Quote:
That ain't opposing a war, that's supporting the enemy
Well said.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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So Nitpicking He'd Nitpick the Merits Of Boobies List:
1) Animalman
B.A. In Bunny Luvin' List:
1) Chris Oakley
2) Zod
Gay List:
1) Mister JLA
Fellatio Rex List:
1) Rex
2) Rexstardust
3) Brian J..whatever
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I would have to question if those signs are all truly from American antiwar protests. I can also tell you those are not typical of any signs I've seen here in Minneapolis. All the protests I've seen have been peaceful with signs more along the lines of this http://www.dccofc.org/War_and_Peace/Anti-war_signs.html$1 billion a day to kill people -- what a bargain. *Mental *Spiritual *Social *Political *Physical 1000 points of light and one dim bulb. A Coward insists a man put down his weapon so he can be shot. A picture of Bush saying "Why should I care A picture of Bush saying "Ask me about my lobotomy." Act like this is a Globe, not an Empire. All we are saying is give Blix a chance. America, get out of the Bushes. Amerika, One Nation Under Fraud An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind (Gandhi). Another patriot for peace Anything War can do, Peace can do better Are Jenna and Barbara part of the Coalition of the Willing? ARMY: America's Reason to Murder the Young Arrogance is not good foreign policy. Arrogance is not the answer. Asses of Evil (With pictures of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld) Back by Popular Demand (Peace Sign) Beneath a picture of Osama bin Laden dressed as Uncle Sam: I want YOU to bomb Iraq. Big brother isn't coming -- he's already here. Bin Laden: CIA Trained, Oil Funded Bombing Iraq is SO ten years ago. Bombs kill babies not dictators. Bombs Kill Puppies (a dog wearing a poster) * Break the cycle! War, Terror Buck Fush * Buck Fush! Bush + Dick = Fucked Bush & Co [not = to] America Bush, Chill Out! Smoke some Weed, Not Iraq! Bush is a Fatal Error Bush is proof that empty warheads can be dangerous. Bush is the True Threat Bush is to Christianity as Osama is to Islam. Bush policy: tax breaks for the rich, body bags for the poor. Bushes are for pissing on. Cast NOT the First Bomb (Pray for Peace) Colorfully dressed drag queen carrying a sign that says: I am the bomb. Consume -- Consume -- Bomb -- Bomb -- Consume --Consume COUNT US RIGHT YOU FUCKERS Curious, George? -- get a clue. Dear Bush, You can't finish what your Daddy couldn't. Declare Peace! Destroy Florida. [It could happen again] Dick + Bush = We're Screwed! Disarm Bush too. Disarmament begins at home. Dissent is Patriotic Dissent IS Democracy Don't Arm a Son of a Bush Don't beat your Swords into Oil Shares Don't blame me, I voted with the majority Don't do it, George, Dad will still love you Don't waive your rights while waving your flag. Draft Dodgers shouldn't start wars Drop Bush not bombs. Drop Bush Not Bombs [repeated over and over] Drunk frat boy drives nation into ditch. . . Drunken frat boy drives country into ditch. Duct tape this! Dump Bu$h, Save Earth Ecoutez la France - Contre la Guerra! Empires fall. End Cowboy Diplomacy End Mad Cowboy Disease End Racism, Iraqis are People too. ENVIRONMENTS Fight Pollution, Not Iraq Fighting for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity Frodo Blew It: Bush Has the Ring! Frodo Has Failed, Bush Has The Ring * Fuck Bush and His Oil War * FUCK WAR!!! George, Jesus is watching. Give us back our CONSTITUTION! Go Solar, not Ballistic Go Solar, Not Ballistic Greenbelt, Maryland, Supports Peace Not War Harken Ghoul (Cheney) Don't send our sons to die so you can ride in an SUV Healthcare not warfare. Helen Thomas for President Help! UN! America's been hijacked. Hemp for Fuel! Hey B*sh, Here's Your Standing Ovation. . . Hey Dick! Your Monkey's Out Of Control! HJR 20 for Non-Pestilence How did our oil get under their sand? How does provoking our enemies create peace? How many Lives per Gallon? Hypocrisy [does not =] Democracy I am unarmed and unafraid. I asked for universal health care and all I got was this lousy stealth bomber. I love my country but I hate this government. I think at best your taking a few very extreme examples that fit with your reasoning but they certainly are not representative.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I would have to question if those signs are all truly from American antiwar protests. I can also tell you those are not typical of any signs I've seen here in Minneapolis. All the protests I've seen have been peaceful with signs more along the lines of this:
****
Amerika, One Nation Under Fraud
****
That sounds pretty anti-American to me.
As you probably know, the use of the spelling "Amerika" is a derogatory term, using the "k" in place of the "c" to signify facism or racism.
Quote:
Asses of Evil (With pictures of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld)
Buck Fush *
Buck Fush!
Bush + Dick = Fucked
Bush is a Fatal Error
Bush is proof that empty warheads can be dangerous.
Bush is the True Threat
Bushes are for pissing on.
Fuck Bush and His Oil War *
Hey Dick! Your Monkey's Out Of Control!
I love my country but I hate this government.
So, you deny that liberals hate America, but apparently admit, given what you consider are "typical" or "representative" signs, that they hate President Bush?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So, you deny that liberals hate America, but apparently admit, given what you consider are "typical" or "representative" signs, that they hate President Bush?
Well, most importantly, I was pointing out your examples were not representative from the signs I've seen. I can't speak for what is truly in your average protester's heart. If he's holding a sign bashing the President does it necessarily mean he hates the President or is he truly hating the policies of the President? Today's protest signs consisted mostly of "Bring the troops home"
Fair play!
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Define America.
If it's the status quo that feels its worth sacrificing its servicemen in pursuit of finacial advantage, then obviously antiwar protrestors are going to have a problem. If (as a lot of conservatives argue) its a zionist conspiracy then that may be objectionable.
Your fucking problem is that you constantly arguje that liberals havce a hive mind (so if a few people protest Bush invading Iraq emphatically) then all liberals are up for it, while not taking this line towards conservatives (because the people who burn family planning clinics are definitely members of the religious right, but don't represent the rest of the conservatives even remotely).
Until such time as you can get over this problem, you should shut up about politics, because generalising one side only is bullshit. Either they're both mindless pack animals organised by authoritarian hive minds, or neither is.
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soooombodies panties are in a twist......
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But he has a point. Posting those pictures as evidence that liberals hate America is equal to someone posting pictures of a Klan rally as proof whites hate blacks. It's rather silly.
Worse is to argue that contempt for our President's policies and actions is contempt for America. America is much more than one man or even one governing body.
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it is proof that liberals hate america, just as those pics of the clan would be proof whites hate blacks, doesnt mean all whites do and doesnt mean all whites do but there are liberals who hate america and thats just photgraphic evidence of it......
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I would have to question if those signs are all truly from American antiwar protests. I can also tell you those are not typical of any signs I've seen here in Minneapolis. All the protests I've seen have been peaceful with signs more along the lines of this
.
http://www.dccofc.org/War_and_Peace/Anti-war_signs.html
.
$1 billion a day to kill people -- what a bargain.
*Mental *Spiritual *Social *Political *Physical
1000 points of light and one dim bulb.
A Coward insists a man put down his weapon so he can be shot.
A picture of Bush saying "Why should I care
A picture of Bush saying "Ask me about my lobotomy."
Act like this is a Globe, not an Empire.
All we are saying is give Blix a chance.
America, get out of the Bushes.
Amerika, One Nation Under Fraud
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind (Gandhi).
Another patriot for peace
Anything War can do, Peace can do better
Are Jenna and Barbara part of the Coalition of the Willing?
ARMY: America's Reason to Murder the Young
Arrogance is not good foreign policy.
Arrogance is not the answer.
Asses of Evil (With pictures of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld)
Back by Popular Demand (Peace Sign)
Beneath a picture of Osama bin Laden dressed as Uncle Sam: I want YOU to bomb Iraq.
Big brother isn't coming -- he's already here.
Bin Laden: CIA Trained, Oil Funded
Bombing Iraq is SO ten years ago.
Bombs kill babies not dictators.
Bombs Kill Puppies (a dog wearing a poster) *
Break the cycle! War, Terror
Buck Fush *
Buck Fush!
Bush + Dick = Fucked
Bush & Co [not = to] America
Bush, Chill Out! Smoke some Weed, Not Iraq!
Bush is a Fatal Error
Bush is proof that empty warheads can be dangerous.
Bush is the True Threat
Bush is to Christianity as Osama is to Islam.
Bush policy: tax breaks for the rich, body bags for the poor.
Bushes are for pissing on.
Cast NOT the First Bomb (Pray for Peace)
Colorfully dressed drag queen carrying a sign that says: I am the bomb.
Consume -- Consume -- Bomb -- Bomb -- Consume --Consume
COUNT US RIGHT YOU FUCKERS
Curious, George? -- get a clue.
Dear Bush, You can't finish what your Daddy couldn't.
Declare Peace!
Destroy Florida. [It could happen again]
Dick + Bush = We're Screwed!
Disarm Bush too.
Disarmament begins at home.
Dissent is Patriotic
Dissent IS Democracy
Don't Arm a Son of a Bush
Don't beat your Swords into Oil Shares
Don't blame me, I voted with the majority
Don't do it, George, Dad will still love you
Don't waive your rights while waving your flag.
Draft Dodgers shouldn't start wars
Drop Bush not bombs.
Drop Bush Not Bombs [repeated over and over]
Drunk frat boy drives nation into ditch. . .
Drunken frat boy drives country into ditch.
Duct tape this!
Dump Bu$h, Save Earth
Ecoutez la France - Contre la Guerra!
Empires fall.
End Cowboy Diplomacy
End Mad Cowboy Disease
End Racism, Iraqis are People too.
ENVIRONMENTS
Fight Pollution, Not Iraq
Fighting for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity
Frodo Blew It: Bush Has the Ring!
Frodo Has Failed, Bush Has The Ring *
Fuck Bush and His Oil War *
FUCK WAR!!!
George, Jesus is watching.
Give us back our CONSTITUTION!
Go Solar, not Ballistic
Go Solar, Not Ballistic
Greenbelt, Maryland, Supports Peace Not War
Harken Ghoul (Cheney) Don't send our sons to die so you can ride in an SUV
Healthcare not warfare.
Helen Thomas for President
Help! UN! America's been hijacked.
Hemp for Fuel!
Hey B*sh, Here's Your Standing Ovation. . .
Hey Dick! Your Monkey's Out Of Control!
HJR 20 for Non-Pestilence
How did our oil get under their sand?
How does provoking our enemies create peace?
How many Lives per Gallon?
Hypocrisy [does not =] Democracy
I am unarmed and unafraid.
I asked for universal health care and all I got was this lousy stealth bomber.
I love my country but I hate this government.
.
.
I think at best you're taking a few very extreme examples that fit with your reasoning but they certainly are not representative.
It just amazes me that anyone, liberal or otherwise, could look at the level of vitriol and absolute excrement of any one of these statements, and defend these statements as some kind of patriotic civil discourse that is serving the best interests of our country.
As opposed to recognizing it for the personally insulting, skewed and partisan venom that it is. There are maybe five out of that long list of liberal slogans that are actually somewhat insightful and reasonable in presenting a liberal perspective, in a somewhat logical and non-antagonistic way.
But the rest of it is typical liberal snottiness, based on vicious assumptions and pointlessly divisive rhetoric.
Only those who contemptuously urinate on American policy are the real patriots ?!?
You've got to be kidding me.
To liberals, no Arab/Muslim terrorism, aggression, or 12 years of non-cooperation with U.N. agreements and inspections, no level of genocide, nothing warrants U.S. military action.
A lot of these jerks were protesting the 1990-1991 Gulf war, and other U.S. military action during the Bush Sr. and Clinton years. It was nonsensical and unpatriotic then, and it's nonsensical and unpatriotic now.
But through manipulation of the truth and support of the liberal media, these anti-war activists and sloganeers have presently managed to cloak their message in a false veil of "truth" and "patriotism".
But however you try to dress it up, pissing on America, by whatever false name you try to cloak it in, is still pissing on America.
There is so much contempt in these slogans for our military, and for decades of U.S. policy under many Presidents, not just G.W. Bush and his cabinet.
These slogans are so rife with unfounded bitter communist/class-warfare/anti-capitalist cynicism of U.S. motives, that it is absolutely impossible for you to pan this off --in any stretch of the imagination-- as some kind of respectful disobedience that is somehow productive in guiding the nation in a more positive direction.
It's not.
Stop lying, to yourselves, and to the nation.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I was pointing out your examples were not representative from the signs I've seen. I can't speak for what is truly in your average protester's heart. If he's holding a sign bashing the President does it necessarily mean he hates the President or is he truly hating the policies of the President? Today's protest signs consisted mostly of "Bring the troops home"
Now, you're backtracking.
You provided a list of protest signs that you , MEM, said were representative of the actual views of the anti-war movement.
Apparently, however, either you didn't actually read the list, or hoped no one here would read the list, because a sizeable portion of those signs were, in fact, anti-American.
If anti-American signs are, as you stated, representative of the movement, then these protesters are anti-American.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
it is proof that liberals hate america, just as those pics of the clan would be proof whites hate blacks, doesnt mean all whites do and doesnt mean all whites do but there are liberals who hate america and thats just photgraphic evidence of it......
I would say it's proof that those people hate America but those people don't represent all liberals. Heck for all we know some of those signs may not even have been from American protesters but signs from another country's protest.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said:
There is so much contempt in these slogans for our military, and for decades of U.S. policy under many Presidents, not just G.W. Bush and his cabinet.
These slogans are so rife with unfounded bitter communist/class-warfare/anti-capitalist cynicism of U.S. motives, that it is absolutely impossible for you to pan this off --in any stretch of the imagination-- as some kind of respectful disobedience that is somehow productive in guiding the nation in a more positive direction.
It's not.
Stop lying, to yourselves, and to the nation.
As I mentioned in my last post, the protesters from last week were holding up large signs asking to bring the troops home. I honestly didn't see any anti-Bush signs. Many of the antiwar signs you see around here simply say "Peace" or "Bring the troops home". Now the anti-Bush signs from the link I provided may not have been respectful of the President but that doesn't make them anti-American. If that was the case, there were many anti-American Republicans during Clinton's two terms. 
Fair play!
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i think there were many anti-american republicans during clintons terms, i think youll find alot od politicians who put their party or agenda above america......
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
There is so much contempt in these slogans for our military, and for decades of U.S. policy under many Presidents, not just G.W. Bush and his cabinet.
These slogans are so rife with unfounded bitter communist/class-warfare/anti-capitalist cynicism of U.S. motives, that it is absolutely impossible for you to pan this off --in any stretch of the imagination-- as some kind of respectful disobedience that is somehow productive in guiding the nation in a more positive direction.
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It's not.
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Stop lying, to yourselves, and to the nation.
As I mentioned in my last post, the protesters from last week were holding up large signs asking to bring the troops home. I honestly didn't see any anti-Bush signs. Many of the antiwar signs you see around here simply say "Peace" or "Bring the troops home". Now the anti-Bush signs from the link I provided may not have been respectful of the President but that doesn't make them anti-American. If that was the case, there were many anti-American Republicans during Clinton's two terms.
Republicans didn't engage in the same kind of vicious namecalling that Democrats are, raising false allegations as facts to slander a sitting president.
Clinton was a proven perjuror, adulterer, and draft-evader.
Clinton was disbarred as a lawyer, for his proven illegal actions.
Clinton was impeached (although because Democrats put party loyalty above justice, Clinton was given a slap on the wrist, instead of real justice, and was "censured" legally, with no punishment)
I believe I already answered your allegation that Republicans supposedly do the same thing as Democrats, on page 8 of the "Do liberals HATE the President?" topic:
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Dave the Wonder Boy said:
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Y'know, maybe it's because I'm a Republican, but it just seems to me that the absolute worst of Republican rhetoric doesn't even approach the level of venom and distortion spewed almost daily from the Democrat side.
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Some examples I've consistently given include how Democrats and liberal reporters constantly project the illusion that Bush "ruined" the economy and started the recession that we're hopefully finally emerging from now.
When the truth is that the recession began under Cinton, AN ENTIRE YEAR before Bush took office. That "Bush caused it" is a blantant lie on the part of Democrats.
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To say nothing of the fact that we were beginning to emerge from the recession when 9-11 occurred, an event which almost instantly obliterated one-sixth of the annual U.S. economy, plunging us back into recession.
And the deficit spending that Bush is vilified by Democrats for is almost entirely due to homeland security spending. Which would have occurred no matter who was President.
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And the consistent bitter charicatures of Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr., Quayle and G.W. Bush (again as I've pointed out before) portraying them as idiots and incompetents, while simultaneously portraying their Democrat counterparts (Carter, Mondale, Ferraro, Dukakis, Clinton and Gore) as brilliant geniuses and visionaries.
So this isn't something new and exclusive to G.W. Bush. This is a consistent malicious portrayal of any Republican who dares to be elected.
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And even when incredible things happened in the world under these past Republicans, like the collapse of Soviet-bloc Eastern Europe and collapse of the Soviet Union itself, these monumental events are portrayed as "dumb luck", despite it being clear that Reagan's plan to negotiate from a position of strength worked, and the Russians negotiated peace because they couldn't compete militarily, and were compelled to negotiate.
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Democrats may not like the Republican attack on Dukakis during the 1988 presidential election, using Willie Horton as a poster-boy for Dukakis. But it is not distortion of the facts by Republicans, it is absolute fact that Dukakis enacted the policy that allowed convicted murderer Willie Horton out on a weekend furlough, which enabled Horton to murder another person.
And it was emblematic of Dukakis' misguided liberal sympathies on a wide range of issues, from crime and punishment, to foreign policy, to military spending.
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G-man's point throughout this topic is that Democrat/liberal hatred of Bush is bitter and maliciously misrepresentative of the facts, and I see nothing here to dispute that.
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The best counterpoint I've heard is the half-hearted "Well, Republicans do it to Democrats too..."
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Well, as I've said repeatedly, Republican rhetoric is almost always backlash against deliberate misrepresentation by Democrats, and even then it rarely matches the venom of what Democrats have said. So from that perspective, Republicans DON'T "do it too".
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Howard Dean's allegations that Bush knew in advance of 9-11 is the bitterest and most infuriating thing I've heard from Democrats in the recent past. Alleged without a shred of evidence, no less. If that's not unpatriotic and pointlessly divisive (exactly what Republicans have called Dean's remarks), then I don't know what else could possibly be considered unpatriotic.
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And equally unpatriotic and malicious, the photomanipulations of Bush and his cabinet into Nazis wearing swastika armbands. And the TIME magazine cover above, distorted to show U.S. soldiers as nazis. Again, from baseless suggestion that there is a similarity between Bush and Nazis, without a shred of proof.
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So yes, liberals hate the President, and no, they haven't got a shred of evidence to back it up. And because liberals hate Bush, they believe every half-baked allegation against Bush, no matter how preposterous.
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I've yet to see any evidence that Iraq is about "blood for oil". It will be at least a decade before the U.S. sees a dime of profit from Iraq, if we ever see any profit at all from the invasion and reconstruction of Iraq. When you consider the cost of the war, the cost of reconstruction, and the forgiven debt Iraq owed the U.S., it will be a long time before we can even hope to break even, let alone a "blood for oil" brand of profit, as liberals have baselessly alleged.
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I've yet to see that Halliburton was picked for any other reason than its extensive past experience in reconstruction of other nations. Despite what liberals bitterly allege.
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I've yet to see that Saddam Hussein was anything but evil, or any evidence that Saddam had NOT been consistently pursuing WMD's, and the fact that they have not been found means absolutely nothing. The WMD's are no doubt buried in the desert somewhere, just like fighter jets that have already been found buried in the sand dunes of Iraq. Despite liberals' bitter allegations that there was no evidence, and that there was no provocation for the U.S. to invade.
There definitely was a WMD program, that even Hilary Clinton, John Kerry and many other key Democrats acknowledged, until March 2003, when it became ruthlessly convenient to exploit that WMD's were not immediately found, despite the overwhelming evidence that Saddam had a massive WMD program, according to U.N. findings, according to the intelligence of every nation that investigated Iraq, and also according to high-level Iraqi military defectors, beginning in 1995.
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The U.N. records, sourced from Saddam Hussein's own military inventory records, clearly show that there are thousands of missing WMD's, documented but unaccounted for. The liberal-bashing of Bush's invasion of Iraq defies logic, and relies on misrepresentative technicalites to make it appear that Bush made war with Iraq for motives of selfishness and greed, rather than the true situation, that it was in the long term interests of the U.S., Iraq, the entire Middle East, and the entire world.
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Liberals distort that France, Germany and Russia had motives and political ties to Iraq (violating U.N. sanctions, which is what caused 12 years of sanctions not to bring about Saddam's collapse, as would have occurred if these three nations had not broken sanctions). Liberals distort that, if not for France and Germany, a security council vote would have supported invasion of Iraq.
And liberals distort that EVEN WITHOUT a U.N. vote, about 50 nations supported the invasion of Iraq. Probably a lot more nations would have joined that "coalition of the willing" if not for France and Germany's obstructionism.
And liberals distort that even though there was not a new U.N. vote to support invasion of Iraq in early 2003, there were ten U.N. resolutions over the previous 12 years, noting the danger Iraq posed, and calling for Iraq to disarm, or face "serious consequences" (implying U.N. authorized military action to enforce disarmament). The most recent U.N. resolution prior to invasion was in September 2002, just six months prior to the March 2003 invasion. But we are to assume, based on liberal distortion of the facts, that the threat Iraq posed for 12 years, that inspired 10 resolutions calling for Iraq's disarmament, just suddenly evaporated and that Iraq suddenly ceased to be a threat just prior to the March 2003 invasion of Iraq.
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Liberals talk about legality of the Iraq invasion, but what about the illegality of Saddam's extermination of an estimated 1 million of Iraq's surviving 25 million people, whose mass graves are being unearthed all over Iraq?
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Liberals bemoan the lack of solid evidence of a Saddam/Al Qaida connection, but that link can now be proven, (the New York Post article that first reported that has been posted repeatedly on these boards, and bitter Bush-hating liberals continue to ignore it).
But even if a Saddam/Al Qaida link weren't proveable, the globally publicized fact that Saddam gave 15,000 dollar checks to the families of every suicide bomber in Palestine, in very public ceremonies, in this and other ways demonstrating that Saddam was a major supporter of Palestinian terrorism, and that pushing Saddam out is a major blow against Palestinian terror, is another fact that anti-Bush liberals choose to ignore and gloss over, amid their Bush-bashing.
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On so many issues, liberals make a legalistic case for "illegality" while ignoring the evil of what we are fighting, and the necessity of fighting it.
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We should have invaded Iraq in 1995, when high-level Iraqi military officers first revealed Saddam was definitely violating the 1991 U.N. peace provisions, and was pursuing a large and secret WMD program.
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We should have invaded in 1998, when Hussein threw out U.N. weapons inspectors.
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We should have invaded North Korea (as Sen. John McCain has said) in 1994, instead of promising North Korea close to a billion dollars a year in cheap feul for 10 years, with no verification required from them, that allowed North Korea to take Clinton's nuclear blackmail payments, while simultaneously violating the agreement and continuing to develop nuclear weapons.
While Bush is vilified by liberals for not dealing with North Korea now, liberals distortedly ignore that it was Clinton who made the agreement with no nuclear verification required that made the present North Korean nukes possible, and that Clinton had 8 years to take care of the problem that Bush inherited.
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On and on, all the situations where liberals bemoan legalistic technicalities, while ignoring and outright lying about the greater truth of these events.
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Because they hate Bush.
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And God forbid they should acknowledge Clinton's responsibility for North Korea's nukes, Clinton's responsibility for Saddam's ability to stay in power and commit genocide and build WMD's (which Bush Sr. also shares blame for), Clinton's responsibility for the economic recession that G.W. Bush inherited, and the many lost opportunities by Clinton to militarily deal with the building threat of Al Qaida.
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Liberal hatred for Bush makes them blindly hate Bush, and blindly oppose what is best for our nation, and the world.
Liberals would rather hate Bush, and blame Bush for everything, utilizing distortion and wild conspiracies, than acknowledge there are real and proven threats to our country, and work to resolve them.
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Hating Bush has become a one-stop scapegoat for liberals, whether Bush is to blame or not. And it seems to me that liberals are eager to believe the worst about Bush, no matter how unproven and wild the accusation.
And I wish I could modify that evaluation to say "some liberals" or "most liberals". But it really seems to me that Bush-hating is the practice of ALL liberals. Whether in conversation with liberals I meet person, or with liberals on these boards, or liberal pundits in the media, I don't see liberals ever say at any point: "Well geez, this particular accusation against Bush is unfair..."
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There is no balance among liberals, Bush-hating seems universal among liberals. So in this particular case, based on observation, I'd have to say "ALL liberals". 
I believe that's equally true for liberals hating America.
Liberals have a clear contempt for our military, a tradition that goes back almost 40 years.
And in light of that, it's just amazing to me that the liberal media has been able to paint the illusion that liberals actually give a flying crap about our troops.
"Caring about our troops" is just a political football for liberals, for attacking Bush.
And again, all the people who were endorsing military action under Clinton, that were also unilateral military actions, at least initially, because the rest of the world did nothing until the U.S. led the way, (Martin Sheen, Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore, Democrats in the Congress and Senate, etc.) are reversing their standard in bashing Bush for taking similar action in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I was pointing out your examples were not representative from the signs I've seen. I can't speak for what is truly in your average protester's heart. If he's holding a sign bashing the President does it necessarily mean he hates the President or is he truly hating the policies of the President? Today's protest signs consisted mostly of "Bring the troops home"
Now, you're backtracking.
You provided a list of protest signs that you , MEM, said were representative of the actual views of the anti-war movement.
Apparently, however, either you didn't actually read the list, or hoped no one here would read the list, because a sizeable portion of those signs were, in fact, anti-American.
If anti-American signs are, as you stated, representative of the movement, then these protesters are anti-American.
No, I'm not backtracking, your changing what I've said. Here's what I said:
I would have to question if those signs are all truly from American antiwar protests. I can also tell you those are not typical of any signs I've seen here in Minneapolis. All the protests I've seen have been peaceful with signs more along the lines of this (Followed by long list of different signs plus the link with even more signs)
I think at best you're taking a few very extreme examples that fit with your reasoning but they certainly are not representative.
Please note I did not say they were representative of the antiwar movement but that I saw signs along those lines in my neck of the woods. To be more specific, I've seen some anti-Bush signs but not anti-American ones except for coverage of other country's antiwar protests or the Internet. It's very hard to see how you could honestly feel your examples were representative of all liberals? Was your mischaracterization intentional?
Fair play!
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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G-Man isn't changing or "misrepresenting" what you said.
This is exactly what you said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I would have to question if those signs are all truly from American antiwar protests. I can also tell you those are not typical of any signs I've seen here in Minneapolis. All the protests I've seen have been peaceful with signs more along the lines of this
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http://www.dccofc.org/War_and_Peace/Anti-war_signs.html
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[ long list of examples deleted, already printed above... ]
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I think at best you're taking a few very extreme examples that fit with your reasoning but they certainly are not representative.
Upwards of 90% of your "representative" examples are inflammatory and present unproven allegations as "facts".
As do virtually all of the Democratic leadership in their rhetoric, such as John Kerry, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, Richard Gephardt, Ted Kennedy and others.
You hold on to the misrepresentative disclaimer that "not all Democrats use that kind of rhetoric".
Well, that's misrepresentation on your part, of the fact that upwards of 90% of Democrats/liberals do use that kind of vicious rhetoric.
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Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said:
G-Man isn't changing or "misrepresenting" what you said.
This is exactly what you said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I would have to question if those signs are all truly from American antiwar protests. I can also tell you those are not typical of any signs I've seen here in Minneapolis. All the protests I've seen have been peaceful with signs more along the lines of this
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http://www.dccofc.org/War_and_Peace/Anti-war_signs.html
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[ long list of examples deleted, already printed above... ]
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I think at best you're taking a few very extreme examples that fit with your reasoning but they certainly are not representative.
Upwards of 90% of your "representative" examples are inflammatory and present unproven allegations as "facts".
As do virtually all of the Democratic leadership in their rhetoric, such as John Kerry, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, Richard Gephardt, Ted Kennedy and others.
You hold on to the misrepresentative disclaimer that "not all Democrats use that kind of rhetoric".
Well, that's misrepresentation on your part, of the fact that upwards of 90% of Democrats/liberals do use that kind of vicious rhetoric.
Well, if I made the claim that all those examples were not inflammatory & absolutely all true, you would have a valid point. You would have to ignore that all my post have been clearly about a few protester signs & their anti-Americanism & how they somehow relate to all liberals. If you check out G-man's earlier examples you will see some signs that are very anti-American. My point is these signs are not what I've seen at protests & don't represent an average liberal viewpoint. I think it's dishonest to say they are. Please do feel free to discuss that argument but you'll have to find somebody else actually making the claims your accusing me of. As for "not all Democrats use that kind of rhetoric" that is a difference between you & I. I don't blanket categorize Republicans. Much of this reminds me of the college kids that characterize all Republicans as nazis. It's silly & they need to be told that. That goes both ways though.
Fair play!
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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ROTFLMFAO!!
So i'm supposed to feel pangs of guilt for being against the Administration and offending Dave and G-Man???!!
Here G-man, let me help you post "PROOFS" of how we hate America.
(of course though, I don't recall Bush changing his name to "America")
Dorks for Bush.
OOOHHHHH..
I know you seethe.
Take comfort though. I'm sure if
Bush gets another 4 years, you'll probably have your opportunity to report people for Ashcroft's 'Freedom and National Security camps'.
Quote:
"I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix."
- Dan Quayle, former U.S. Vice President
"There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again." —- George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
Last edited by whomod; 2004-04-12 10:42 AM.
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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That's funny.
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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So, basically, what we have here is Matter Eater man saying "Liberals Don't hate Bush, they Hate America," and whomod saying no, liberals don't hate America, they hate Bush." In either event, there's a whole lotta hatin' goin' on. 
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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From a San Francisco Chronicle report on a Saturday "antiwar" protest: "The only way the United States is going to leave Iraq... is if the Iraqi resistance militarily wins," said Joshua Deutsch, 22, a public health student at UC Berkeley with a "Long Live Fallujah" sign.
Deutsch said he hoped as few U.S. troops are killed as possible, but "There is a right side to this conflict, and the Iraqis are fighting for their freedom." Is it OK if I question this "dissenter's" patriotism?
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So, basically, what we have here is Matter Eater man saying "Liberals Don't hate Bush, they Hate America," and whomod saying no, liberals don't hate America, they hate Bush."
In either event, there's a whole lotta hatin' goin' on.
Or perhaps your blanket assumptions, assertions and condemnations just don't apply.
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Except that you and M.E.M are the ones making the blanket assumptions (or defenses, if you prefer) of your fellow liberals.
One of you posts a group of clearly anti-American signs.
The other posts a group of anti-Bush signs.
You both say that the signs are "typical" (or words to that effect) of the anti-war movement.
All I'm doing is pointing out that you're admitting amidst all your denials.
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10000+ posts
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 I saw that and thought it was funny. But hey, in the interest of fairness.....: 
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Just for the sake of discussion, how do you guys define "hating America?" How broad is our definition of "hate?" Wishing harm on American citizens and residents, and the government is obvious. Blaming America first when it's definitely not our fault...yeah. But besides that, how else do we classify "hating America?" Can we say hating conservatives or liberals, or hating Democrats or Republicans is hating America, since our hatred is directed towards our fellow American citizens? The two sides obviosuly disagree on a lot of issues, but disagreeing with ideals and politics isn't the same as hatred. At least, not in my opinion.
So...is anyone gonna take a crack at answering this? I've seen a lot of "these guys hate America because" or "these guys don't hate America because" comments, but I haven't seen anything that tries to concretely define what it means to hate America (and I'm expecting varying opinions on this).
Last edited by Darknight613; 2004-04-12 10:16 PM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So, basically, what we have here is Matter Eater man saying "Liberals Don't hate Bush, they Hate America," and whomod saying no, liberals don't hate America, they hate Bush."
In either event, there's a whole lotta hatin' goin' on.
Now your down to quoting me as saying exactly the opposite of what I've been posting. How utterly scummy! If it's any consolation I don't hate you (but considering how you interpret things that translates into whatever suits your partisan's needs) Perhaps our lil' G-man is from Bizzaro world? Anybody else have some theories?
Fair play!
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Just for the sake of discussion, how do you guys define "hating America?" How broad is our definition of "hate?" Wishing harm on American citizens and residents, and the government is obvious. Blaming America first when it's definitely not our fault...yeah. But besides that, how else do we classify "hating America?" Can we say hating conservatives or liberals, or hating Democrats or Republicans is hating America, since our hatred is directed towards our fellow American citizens? The two sides obviosuly disagree on a lot of issues, but disagreeing with ideals and politics isn't the same as hatred. At least, not in my opinion.
So...is anyone gonna take a crack at answering this? I've seen a lot of "these guys hate America because" or "these guys don't hate America because" comments, but I haven't seen anything that tries to concretely define what it means to hate America (and I'm expecting varying opinions on this).
Hate for me is something reserved for evil. It's not a word that should be thrown out casually. I'm assuming the "all liberals hate America" crowd has a fairly loose definition of hate. (& the word liberal for that matter)
Fair play!
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Hate for me is something reserved for evil. It's not a word that should be thrown out casually. I'm assuming the "all liberals hate America" crowd has a fairly loose definition of hate. (& the word liberal for that matter)
I would think/hope so, too.
I'm trying to avoid taking part in this discussion, partly because I have a hard time digesting the notion that any opinion as "out there" as some of those depicted(at face value, at least) in the signs can be representative of several million Americans, and also partly because I doubt anything I could say would really change anyone's mind.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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I think it might be an overgeneralization either way - not all liberals hate America, and believe it or not, not all of them hate Bush. But it seems that the ones that by their own admission hate either of them tend to express their views in a rather petty, immature manner. Rather disappointing. Then again, hate in general tends to blind people to logic, common sense, and especially comic timing. 
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I hate psychotic drivers who think that putting an American flag on their car gives them the right to break traffic laws and endanger other people in the process. They deserve to be kicked in the crotch by expert kickboxers wearing cleats. And have their cars taken away and replaced by Yugos (the "Gigli" of automobiles.)
A real American would obey America's laws and try to avoid causing harm to one's fellow citizens, or at least actually give a damn about their safety.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2004-04-13 1:55 AM.
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I'm a liberal and I hate neither America not Bush. Dumb generalisations over please.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So, basically, what we have here is Matter Eater man saying "Liberals Don't hate Bush, they Hate America,"
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Now your down to quoting me as saying exactly the opposite of what I've been posting.
So, you're saying that liberals don't hate America, they just hate the President?
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