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we've been to the moon. we've detailed and mapped its surface. we're currently aggressively moving towards mars. we have satelites millions of miles from our planet. we have space telescopes taking pictures of events that happened millions of years ago.

but how much do we know and understand about 70% of our own planet?

should we shift focus from NASA to SCUBA?


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I'd say both, but of course, that ain't much of a choice.
However, how can we embark on the greatest journey in history, and still not know the house we set out from?

I've always had a real thing for Space, I've always wanted to be an astronaut, and my greatest dream is to get up there. But I have to say that we should understand our own world before we start exploring others




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The ocean is less of a threat to our continued existence than space is. One big rock and we're all toast. Get facilities up there to stop us from suffering the fate of the steogosaurus.


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Dave you clearly do not comprehend the threat of Godzilla!



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Space.

I know I'll never live to see it, but interstellar travel is one of the most fascinating concepts to me. The thought of other intelligent life eons beyond our comprehension is just too much to not explore. We're not even in our infancy technologically speaking. Hell we're not even a fuckin' zygote. I'd love to know if any other species in some other solar system ever got advanced enough to contact another. Cosmic statistics would have to dictate that they have. That's just so much more fascinating to me than a sea turtle.


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yes but doesnt the thought of dicovering Sea Donkeys intrigue anyone?

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JQ, no doubt, is open to those kinds of new experiences.


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Someone has taken Kristogar's password. That was actually very funny.


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The immense pressure of the underwater world make it that much harder to explore. Space, when planned and executed right, runs less risk. Plus, as Dave said, our biggest threats come from without and not within. I'd like to split the difference, but I must admit that space travel is a little more important to me than deep sea exploration.


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

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Right.
There is absolutely nothing that anybody can eat underwater, and nobody anywhere in the world is starving.
Manned missions to Mars will provide an invaluable defense in the case of a comet or meteorite landing somewhere it'll cause trouble.

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Good to see you have your priorities straight.


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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I honestly can't see that NASA (or anyone else for that matter) are doing shit to prevent impacts from anyone of the crap out there wiping out whole cities or causing something akin to a nuclear winter.
I also can't see how a manned Mars mission is liable to be preferable to sending machinery there, except for casting far more and achieving far less.
Overfishing is already causing problems, and these aren't going to get any better without measures being taken to remedy the problem.
If that's an example of my priorities being wrong, then I can live with that.

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How about if I classify it as you being an over-zealous ass?


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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dr go easy on him he has US envy issues to deal with....

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Quote:

thedoctor said:
How about if I classify it as you being an over-zealous ass?




I'm not the one who thinks that pissing away the GNP of a third world country in order to send some fuckwit to Mars is worthwhile. It's not like anything worthwhile has been done with the moon since 'Sixty nine, is it? Why should this be any different?

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i take it you country isnt capable of deep space flight?

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Someone has their panties in a bunch. Maybe he should take a nice vacation or get laid. Whichever he has to pay less for.


whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&e=5&u=/chitribts/20040421/ts_chicagotrib/oceansindeeptroubleusmusthelppanelsays

Quote:

Oceans in deep trouble; U.S. must help, panel says
Wed Apr 21, 9:40 AM ET Add Top Stories - Chicago Tribune to My Yahoo!


By Andrew Martin Washington Bureau

Citing increasing pressures from pollution, overfishing and residential development, a federal commission on Tuesday called for sweeping changes in how the U.S. manages the oceans, including allocating billions of dollars in gas and oil royalties for ocean preservation.


• Chicago Tribune home page
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The U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy, created by Congress in 2000 and appointed by President Bush (news - web sites), concluded that human actions have seriously jeopardized the health of the oceans, from huge and toxic algae blooms to depletion of fish stocks. Only a major overhaul of federal policy could reverse the trend, the commission found in its 413-page report.


While the report focused primarily on oceans, the commission also addressed the Great Lakes and urged steps to curb problems caused by pollution and invasive species such as the zebra mussel.


"If our report is adopted, the payoff will be great," said retired Adm. James Watkins, committee chairman. "It's now obvious that ocean resources are not limitless, nor are ocean waters capable of continual self-cleansing. The point is this: It's up to us to find ways to use and enjoy the oceans in a sustainable way."


To attack the problems, the commission said the federal government must work to streamline ocean management, which is spread among "a confusing array of agencies at the federal, state and local levels."


Needed: Wider view


The report also called for a fundamental change in how the government addresses ocean problems, urging "ecosystem-based management," which focuses on entire regions, rather than the current policy of addressing each species or habitat in isolation.


The commission recommended creation of a National Ocean Council, to be chaired by an assistant to the president, and for doubling the amount of federal funding for ocean research.


The report was the government's first comprehensive look at ocean policy since the Stratton Commission issued Our Nation and the Sea more than 30 years ago.


Numbers adding up


Since then, "more than 37 million people, 19 million homes and countless businesses have been added to coastal areas," the report said, noting an increase in the nation's use of offshore oil and gas, marine transportation and coastal tourism.


"These developments, however, come with costs, and we are only now discovering the extent of those costs in terms of depleted resources, lost habitat and polluted waters," the report said.


Several environmental groups hailed the report and said it is a mandate for Congress and Bush to act.


Cameron Davis, executive director of the Lake Michigan Federation, said the timing was perfect because there is legislation pending in Congress to restore the Great Lakes.


"We need to do something, and we need to do something fast, or we are going to spend many times more to clean up existing messes," Davis said, but "a report like this can't mandate political will. At the end of the day, that's what we need more than anything else."


Sarah Chasis, a senior attorney for the National Resources Defense Council, said the commission's report highlighted many of the same themes that were outlined in a Pew Oceans Commission report in 2003.


"You have both of them basically saying we have serious degradation, we need to act," Chasis said.





The commission's report will be sent to the nation's governors for comment. Once the governors' comments are reviewed, a final version of the report will be sent to Bush and Congress.

Let Washington pay, chief says

Commission Chairman Watkins made a point of saying that there were no "unfunded mandates" in the report, which would require states to pay for reforms. Rather, the commission laid out a funding scheme by year to detail how the federal government could pay for the plan, which includes 54 recommendations for Congress, 69 for the president, 125 for federal agencies and 13 for states, Watkins said.

The commission calls for $4 billion a year from oil and gas royalties paid to the government from offshore drilling operations to be placed into an Ocean Policy Trust Fund. The commission estimates it would cost $1.3 billion to implement its recommendations in the first year, $2.4 billion the second and $3.2 billion in subsequent years.

"Will this be tough to sell?" Watkins asked. "You better believe it. But we're going to go for it."

Ted Beattie, president and chief executive officer of the John G. Shedd Aquarium and a member of the commission, said a crucial aspect of the report is a recommendation to educate the public on the perilous condition of the oceans and the Great Lakes.

"There hasn't been a strong PR effort to tell people what the situation is," Beattie said, adding, "If we don't get after these problems, they are only going to get worse."

- - -

INCREASING OCEAN USE SPURS CALL FOR PROTECTION

A presidential commission on Tuesday recommended the creation of a fund to help protect the oceans. The fund would be paid for through oil and gas royalties paid to the federal government. Since 1970, the growing U.S. population and expanded commerce have put added pressure on the ocean ecosystem.

COST OF PLAN

Year 1: $1.3 billion

Year 2: $2.4

Year 3:* $3.2

*Also each year thereafter

U.S. COASTAL POPULATION*

Scale in millions

2000: 145.5 million

NORTH AMERICA SHIPPING

Tons of goods loaded; scale in millions

2000: 513.8 million

U.S. AND CANADA CRUISE PASSENGERS

Scale in millions

2000: 6.9 million

*For coastal watershed counties

Sources: U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy, United Nations (news - web sites) Conference on Trade and Development, Cruise Lines International Association

Chicago Tribune




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The fucking French contributed more to the exploration of space than America ever did.


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Show me proof the U.S. has did more in space? And don't cite books or historical documents either, they don't count.

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and space!


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Rob Offline OP
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i'm actually inclined to lean towards exploring the sea a lot more than we currently are.

to me, space is infinitely more fascinating. ever since i was a kid, i loved planetariums and waiting for halley's comet and pointing out the constellations. seeing meteor showers from the big-city-distant cape cod was beautiful.

but i honestly think a lot more value can be attained from the sea. whether its looking for a new source of medicine, or new forms of unexamined life, an increased food source for the malnurished on the planet... whatever. the fact that it takes up two-thirds of the earth, and yet we know so little about it is crazy.

imagine being able to avoid overcrowding or over population by setting up underwater colonies? even if just serving as a learning tool for eventual space colonies? (both, of course, featuring the standard, cartoon-like dome. and snorks).


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whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules.
It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness.
This is true both in politics and on the internet."

Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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I'm all for Exploring BOTH Space and The Seas..
as long as an Undersea colony is NOTHING like
SeaLab 2021 on Adult Swim!


"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your

death bring you the peace you never found in

life." - Tuvok.


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