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I was never a Reagan supporter. I did not vote for him in the one election he ran in during my adulthood. I never felt that I was someone, as a liberal, whom Reagan would have embraced despite the fact that I, too, was born in the same United States as he. I found he skated out of harm's way over Iran-contra far too easily, and I felt in far more fear of nuclear proliferation than in any time up until the election of George W. Bush.
Nonetheless, I am saddened at his passing. Despite our undeniable differences of opinion, Reagan was a great American, and in these immediate days following his death, I mourn his loss. I misted up at images of Nancy, clearly devastated at his death, and as one who has known death too, I understand her grief and the sense of loss that appears to permeate her. Reagan was cut from a cloth similar to that of my late father-in-law. Both worked for their country, my father in law as a soldier in WWII and Reagan as 40th US President. Both are gone and represent aspects of era we will likely not see again during our lifetimes. In some ways, that's a good thing, as both men probably held beliefs whose times had come and gone. But the time for that discussion is another day.
I wish the Reagan family well.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-06-07 6:45 PM.
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I actually thought whomod had a pretty good post on this page. I'm glad that Ronald Reagan is now free of a terrible disease nobody should have to live with. He was here far too long, really, and I'm certain he wasn't here for most of the past half decade. I'm saddened that hyper-polarized partisanship almost guarantees that Reagan was the last truly great President of this country, and I doubt that Presidents from either party in the near future will accomplish as much or be as universally respected. Moreover, I'm saddened - and more than a little pissed off - that a small minority of individuals seem to delight in his passing and have spent the past day or two dancing on the man's as yet unoccupied grave. However, I'm not going to fret too much - most of those individuals are people nobody listens to or cares about anyway, and their words will have died out long before the memory of Ronald Reagan fades.
True, Reagan committed his share of oversights and mistakes, as any human being does. His terms as President weren't perfect - although they'd still compare favorably to those of either President since - and I don't see any reason to gloss over the things he could have done better. But at the same time, his accomplishments in international affairs, as Doc pointed out, command respect from any rational observer who looks at everything that happened in the 80s.
I know I'll miss the Gipper, as will most people whose opinions actually matter to me. Whomod and JJ get a handful of points. Doc doesn't need 'em. Trout goes down a coupla pegs. Have a nice day.
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Quote:
Pig Iron said:
Anyway, he is one of the 10 greatest Presidents in history and he was a hero. Ronnie was the last great president we will ever have. Party politics have destroyed any chance at having an original or independent thinker in the white house ever again. A shame his final 10 years were so horrible.
Most sane people will miss and mourn him.
I like the way you think Sammitch...
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 Sorry...
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Errrr, I was actually serious.
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Oh. I thought you were taking exception to my repeating what you'd already said. In that case thanks. 
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In the case of AIDS, you need to first remember that the AIDS virus was not identified until 1982. From 1984 onward every Reagan budget contained a large sum of money specifically earmarked for AIDS. From fiscal year 1984 through 1989 Reagan proposed at least $2.79 billion for AIDS research, education, and treatment. During the Reagan Presidency overall, the federal government spent $5.727 billion on AIDS. In February 1986, Reagan's budget message added that AIDS "remains the highest public health priority of the Department of Health and Human Services." Maybe you think he should have spent more, but subsequent Presidents have and, guess what, there's still no cure. Why, therefore, attack Reagan for not accomplishing what has, so far, been impossible to accomplish, especially on the day of his funeral?
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
For you to callously attack a man so soon after his death with total disregard to his goals and accomplishments is disrespectful and ignorant. Please, attempt to express yourself in a manner of decorum and intellect.
I think one reason why some of us Liberals might be quick to point out perceived flaws in the man is because we feel that in no uncertain terms, the moment Clinton is laid to rest that so many Conservatives will use a forum such as this for piling on criticism before the man's even warm in his grave.
Jim
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There's a difference in pointing out perceived flaws and being a cock bastard about it. And being preemptive of insults you think will come from a former president who is no where near death's demise is no excuse. People who would attack Clinton at that time will be just as big of assholes. They will only be as petty as kilgore's comments have been. Wrong is still wrong.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
I think one reason why some of us Liberals might be quick to point out perceived flaws in the man is because we feel that in no uncertain terms, the moment Clinton is laid to rest that so many Conservatives will use a forum such as this for piling on criticism before the man's even warm in his grave
So, you're defending bad behavior with a hypotehetical?
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
There's a difference in pointing out perceived flaws and being a cock bastard about it. And being preemptive of insults you think will come from a former president who is no where near death's demise is no excuse. People who would attack Clinton at that time will be just as big of assholes. They will only be as petty as kilgore's comments have been. Wrong is still wrong.
You're speaking with such anger that you appear to me to be someone who feels personally insulted by kilgore's remarks, as if you knew Reagan personally.
And hey, when you speak of "pre-emption," isn't the guy currently in office, a Republican, big on that?
Let's all lighten up a bit.
Also, an editorial on Reagan in TIME's website indicates that Reagan did not like speaking about AIDS.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
You're speaking with such anger that you appear to me to be someone who feels personally insulted by kilgore's remarks, as if you knew Reagan personally.
I'd be doing the same of people attacking Clinton if he just passed away. It's just about decency and respect. Nothing personal.
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:And hey, when you speak of "pre-emption," isn't the guy currently in office, a Republican, big on that?
Thank you for only reading what you wanted to read.
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Also, an editorial on Reagan in TIME's website indicates that Reagan did not like speaking about AIDS.
Then Kilgore could have referrenced that article instead of blindly lashing out without any use of manners or respect for a man who just passed on. I did not bash him for stating his opinions. I spoke out against the way he did it.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
I did not bash him for stating his opinions. I spoke out against the way he did it.
Hey Doctor, this is an anonymous message board, no offense taken by me and unlike Reagan, I'm alive!
As you may have guessed I am not a Reagan as President fan, and I don't think that his death should be used to whitewash his record or as gag order concerning his shortcomings in office.
He seemed to love his wife very much and wasn't afraid to show it. I found that admirable and honorable.
That said, I will stop talking crossly about him for the prescribed period of mourning in case Nancy happens by the boards and is horrified that someone didn't love her husband as you all seemed to. 
I'm Kilgore Trout and I approve this message.
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Quote:
Also, an editorial on Reagan in TIME's website indicates that Reagan did not like speaking about AIDS.
How does not liking to talk about something mean inaction or lack of caring?
I don't like to talk about animal abuse or child abuse. Doesn't mean I like them.
Hell, I used to regularly and sometimes still do, prosecute child abuse. And I still don't like to talk about it.
Does that mean all those cases didn't mean anything because I don't wring my hands and whine about it more?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
For you to callously attack a man so soon after his death with total disregard to his goals and accomplishments is disrespectful and ignorant. Please, attempt to express yourself in a manner of decorum and intellect.
I think one reason why some of us Liberals might be quick to point out perceived flaws in the man is because we feel that in no uncertain terms, the moment Clinton is laid to rest that so many Conservatives will use a forum such as this for piling on criticism before the man's even warm in his grave.
Jim
Get over yourself there, we've been doing it while the man was still in office.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I was never a Reagan supporter. I did not vote for him in the one election he ran in during my adulthood. I never felt that I was someone, as a liberal, whom Reagan would have embraced despite the fact that I, too, was born in the same United States as he. I found he skated out of harm's way over Iran-contra far too easily, and I felt in far more fear of nuclear proliferation than in any time up until the election of George W. Bush.
Nonetheless, I am saddened at his passing. Despite our undeniable differences of opinion, Reagan was a great American, and in these immediate days following his death, I mourn his loss. I misted up at images of Nancy, clearly devastated at his death, and as one who has known death too, I understand her grief and the sense of loss that appears to permeate her. Reagan was cut from a cloth similar to that of my late father-in-law. Both worked for their country, my father in law as a soldier in WWII and Reagan as 40th US President. Both are gone and represent aspects of era we will likely not see again during our lifetimes. In some ways, that's a good thing, as both men probably held beliefs whose times had come and gone. But the time for that discussion is another day.
I wish the Reagan family well.
I always wondered who voted for Mondale. 
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God Bless Ronald Reagan.......We'll never forget you........and Thank You..........you'll be missed. 
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I always remember an exchange from "King of the Hill" when I think of Reagan.
Peggy reminded Hank of something Reagan did or said and Hank got all choked up and said "Yep...I still miss being able to vote for that man."
I feel the same way.
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You have to at least in some way admire a man who bombed the French!
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Thank you for only reading what you wanted to read.
I meant my remark about pre-emption in jest. Jesus, you people are so fucking uptight sometimes...
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My condolences to Reagan's family. At the very least, I would imagine, given Reagan's condition, they had a good amount of time to prepare for his passing. I harbor no ill will towards the man, but I can't say I'm going to "miss" him, either. I was too young to form an opinion of him while in office, but in examining what he did(and didn't do), I don't think he was a particular good president, at least in terms of his direct impact on world events. It is my belief that the Sovient Union's economy was in such a state that a collapse was imminent, anyway, and that Reagan was simply fortunate to be in office when it happened. I think that his reputation as a good, honest guy is what made him popular, and thus successful-seeming. In my opinion, Nixon accomplished more as a President(ending the Viet Nam war, establishing peace with China), but obviously he won't be on anyone's favorite prez list. In terms of social issues, neither were very progressive. In the end, I think he deserves respect, as most do. The media always glorifies dead celebrities(most of them, at least), so I was prepared for the onslaught of preachy obituaries. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but here in Texas, the guy's practically achieved godlike status. Quote:
the G-man said:
Apparently, when the deceased is a dead republican, however, the usual rules of decorum go out the window for some people.
Or not:
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Fuck Spain and Fuck France........and Fuck D.Mcdon'tknowshit. By the way how about that shoddy French workmaniship on their new Airport Terminal........Fucking Losers.
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I'm not shedding any tears for dead Frenchmen......sorry.
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5 less people to surrender to al-qaeda.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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P.S-I think Teddy Roosevelt was the first, last, and only good President. If there's anyone I'll miss, it's him.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....Ani, since when have we had peace with China post WWII?? I mean, we get a bunch of crap from them, but do we really have peace? I think you are veerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy mistaken.
So Nitpicking He'd Nitpick the Merits Of Boobies List:
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Nixon was the first President to establish relations with China post WW2, it was in '72. I remember I went to an exhibit in Bejing last year that focused on the anniversary of the precedings. Here: Quote:
Julie Nixon Eisenhower, Chinese Minister of Culture Sun Jiazheng, and U.S. Ambassador to China Clark T. Randt, Jr. presided today in Beijing at opening ceremonies for "Journeys to Peace," an exhibition detailing President Nixon's historic 1972 visit to China. The exhibit will open in Yorba Linda on January 9 -- the 90th anniversary of President Nixon's birth.
The grand opening took place at the National Museum of Chinese History in Beijing. The exhibit will move to the Shanghai Library in December, then on to Yorba Linda, where it will be unveiled by Tricia Nixon Cox and Mrs. Eisenhower.
"Journeys to Peace" was mounted by the Ministry of Culture in collaboration with the Nixon Library and the China Exhibition Agency, with the generous support of the Reader's Digest Foundation.
When President Nixon met Premier Zhou Enlai at Capital Airport in Beijing in February 1972, their handshake made history. There had been no diplomatic relations between the two nations since 1949. President Nixon, Chairman Mao Zedong, and Premier Zhou had all come to the same conclusion on behalf of their peoples. Neither nation could benefit from continued estrangement, while both would benefit from establishing a new relationship.
Nixon Library curator Olivia Anastasiadis installs gold horse, lent to "Journeys to Peace" by the White House. It was a gift to President Bush from Chinese President Jiang Zemin. Through original documents, rare photographs (many seen in this exhibit for the first time), and priceless objects, "Journeys to Peace" tells the story of three extraordinary leaders, their diverse paths toward the summit, and their shared goals of reconciliation, peace, and progress for their peoples.
The centerpiece of the exhibition is a film narrated by Mrs. Eisenhower and featuring never-before-seen footage of her parents' historical visit. The exhibit also includes life-sized statues of the President and Premier showing the instant of their first handshake as well as videotaped greetings from President Bush and Chinese President Jiang Zemin.
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We had relations with Russia during the cold war. Nixon went to China. China only likes us for our money and Britney spears. The Chinese government would like to destroy us in a billowing plume of nuclear fire.
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3) Brian J..whatever
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Heh, well, I don't think we're terribly fond of them, either. So it goes.
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You must read through those Nature lies.
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You still haven't put me on your nitpicker list.
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Dont matter what country they are from,dont matter what party they belong to,all politicians are cunts!
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Dont matter what country they are from,dont matter what party they belong to,all politicians are cunts!
Holy shee-it!!! You mean, we actually agree on something???
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
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Despite my disdain for VP Cheney, I thought his speech at Reagan's laying-in-state last night was very good.
Still, I will not be casting my vote in November for the Bush-Cheney ticket. But his speech last night was very good.
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I haven't read most of this thread. I gather there have been a few comments adverse to Reagan.
Reagan during his presidency was depicted in my country as a dangerous warmonger. He was described as overly reliant upon his wife, who in turn was guided by her tarot reader. Reaganomics was an anaethema to many people, and was perceived as causing many Americans to lose their jobs.
As for the end of the Cold War, many people outside the US, including most of Germany, attribute this to Gorbachev, not Reagan. (I actually do think Reagan was partially responsible for this, although he never intended to be - he dramatically increased defence spending and caused what would otherwise have been a dangerous arms race with the Soviet Union, but which instead damaged its economy.)
And so Reagan was much maligned by Australians during his presidency, and the revelation that he had Alzeimer's was considered to be no big surprise.
As a consequence, I was frankly astonished by calls from some people a few years back that Reagan's face be carved on Mt Rushmore. I think I have said before that I only became recently aware of Reagan's principled stance on taxes, refusing to raise them because he did not want to break an election promise.
In any event, the man is dead: may he rest in peace.
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Quote:
Dave said:
I think I have said before that I only became recently aware of Reagan's principled stance on taxes, refusing to raise them because he did not want to break an election promise.
From Paul Krugman, NY TIMES: "But Reagan does hold a special place in the annals of tax policy, and not just as the patron saint of tax cuts. To his credit, he was more pragmatic and responsible than that; he followed his huge 1981 tax cut with two large tax increases."
Reagan did raise taxes.
Go to this source to read some interesting commentary on how much of what we've heard this week deifying Reagan isn't true. http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/4820649.html
I'm not going to dwell on anything anti-Reagan until after this weekend.
Jim
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I just wish we could get more media coverage of people walking past his casket...
YOU PUT SOUP IN IT!
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How long before the DVD comes out?
now known as rex
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 Probably the most striking image of the day. If anything, this certainly would have been unfathomable in our youths. The former leader of the Soviet Union comforting the former President of the United States' widow. 
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too blessed to be stressed
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Quote:
June 11, 2004
FAREWELL TO A PRESIDENT
North Contends He Would Be a Distraction at Funeral
WASHINGTON — Oliver L. North, the decorated Marine who came to personify the Iran-Contra scandal with his ramrod-straight testimony before Congress, will make a sacrifice today for his hero and former boss: He will not attend former President Reagan's funeral.
Recalling a conversation he had Wednesday with William P. Clark, former national security advisor and Reagan confidant, North said: "I told him I did not think I should be a distraction at this, and if I went, I would be."
"Every doggone camera in the place would be shooting pictures of me instead of paying attention to what was going on," he said in a telephone interview from Key West, Fla.
North, host of the Fox News Channel program "War Stories with Oliver North," said he thought the media would try to make something out of his presence if he went to the funeral.
"I had the national press corps camped on my front lawn for nine straight months" during the Iran-Contra scandal, said North, who served as a national security aide in the Reagan White House. "And that's not what this is about."
Although he will miss being at the funeral, North said, he was taking a long view of events.
"I revere Ronald Reagan," he said. "I certainly spent plenty of time with him in the past and I know I'll be with him in the future…. Those of us who know where we are going, and know why we are going there, have no doubt that he is now in that shining city on a hill."
— Vicki Kemper
what a self-important self righteous ass.
Here, have a towel to wipe all that gooey pompous slime off.
Last edited by whomod; 2004-06-12 9:08 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
Ever get that feeling nobody's listening?
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 12,609
10000+ posts
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10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 12,609 |
too blessed to be stressed
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