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tis a common lil diddy. seems like teachers are always striking, or at least complaining, that they don't make enough money.
just as similarly, it always seems like everyone agrees with that notion.
if you're unaware of a teacher's salary, and because all areas obvioulsy have varied wages, a general rule of thumb is that a teacher earns roughly 70-80% of what a generic "business person" makes.
so, if in your area thats about 40,000 / year, a teacher would make about 30,000.
the outcry is that a teacher's job is perhaps the most noble on the planet, or at least on a par with, say, medicine, yet they obvioulsy lose in that salary "one-up" contest. similarly, a common saying is were teachers paid on a babysitter's rate, they'd double their yearly income.
when put in those perspectives, it'd be difficult to deny the situation is unfair.
...however... right off the bat, lets look at the benefits of being a teacher, starting with the biggest of them all, a 3 month vacation once the weather gets nice.
throw in a few weeks during the holidays, a week in the spring, and any other random holiday, plus the school closings anytime the roads get icy, and you've got yerself 100 vacation dates.
technically, they work 70-80% of a generic business man. using that, it seems like they are on the same wage scale.
in some areas, teachers are even afforded an immunity to being released (often accrued after working for a few years).
their work days start at around 9, but end around 3 (take home work aside, since no one counts that).
so, what're your thougths on this common debate?
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I think that teachers should teach because they want to, not for the money. Besides, I don't think the school system could really work any other way(certainly not the public school system).
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It depends teacher to teacher. I've had teachers that were great and deserved more pay, and I've had horrible teachers that shouldn't be near kids. Its like every other career. As a whole I think they are underpaid. But I think the majority do it to make a difference.
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Down with the Teachers Union. We need Reagan.
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They are not underpaid. They just arnt armed!
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well living in a "well off" area our teachers get the shitter and everyone above them gets the nice 6 figure bounce. sure they get a rough 100 day vacation. take work home and have to plot out lesson plans days ahead. but think the avetage teach deals with what probably 150 to 300 ankle bitters a day. and most have to invest in certain materials. yeah sure, day starts sometime between 7 and 9 and "ends" between 2 and 4 but think of the number of papers, exams, essays, and feild trip/lecture planning. i dunno, i know i'm just going in a loop here, but i just feel their under paid for all the stress. but yet there's some that have pissed me off for the last 13 years that i wouldn't mind pointing and laughing at in the unemployment office.
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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The theory that increased spending produces a commensurate improvement in a school’s educational product has been called a "durable delusion."
Its durability stems in part from the fact that the public education industry subscribes to this materialist theory.
However, a longstanding body of research disproves it.
In 1966 sociologist James Coleman’s groundbreaking report on education refuted policies that focused on per-pupil spending, teachers’ salaries and pupil-teacher ratios.
The report said:
Schools are remarkably similar in the effect they have on the achievement of their pupils when the socioeconomic background of the students is taken into account.....the powerful predictors of schools’ performances are the qualities of the pupils’ families.
Twenty-five years later, an official of the Educational Testing Service estimated that about 90 percent of the differences among the proficiency of public schools can be explained by five variables:
number of parents in the home
days absent from school
hours spent watching television
quantity and quality of reading matter in the home
amount of homework done.
No where was spending per pupil a factor.
Similarly, there is scant evidence that much good is done by lowering class sizes by a few students: "Often that simply increases the attention each pupil gets from an inadequately trained teacher."
Source: Washington Post
Published: 2/01/01 Author: George Will
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
technically, they work 70-80% of a generic business man. using that, it seems like they are on the same wage scale.
The good ones are underpaid. Summer vacation? Offset that with the fact that most teachers take work home EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.
My wife was 17-year teacher and rarely took this so-called three month summer vacation. She was always taking classes, setting up her fall schedule, teaching summer school.
What's always lost in this argument is that people want to look at the vacation issue. Hey, let's look at the teaching profession in terms of its VALUE TO OUR SOCIETY. You put your children under these people's guidance daily for 9 months a year. Does not that amount of responsibility deserve a concomitant salary?
Jim
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My mother has been teaching snot-nosed anklebiters their ABCs for almost three decades. She loves what she does and wouldn't trade it for anything. But even with all her qualifications, she can't pull quite enough to keep up with my little brother's tuition payments (Catholic high schools... I tell ya  ) and my parents have had to run up a bit of credit-card debt trying to stay ahead of everything - although it's a little easier without me around to eat all their food and stuff.  The bright side of her job is that my mother - and the rest of my family by association - gets kickass health insurance benefits. Dental, prescription, emergency, you name it. (My father's insurance covers the car and everything else.) Still, I've seen what she does, and she should be drawing way more than she does to put up with a lot of the crap she has to take - not even from the kids as much as from the education system itself.
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Great points Jim!
My girlfriend who went to College for 6 years and has a Masters Degree in Special Education is paid less then the guy who collects our garbage. She starts work at around 7:30am and brings home at least an hour or two of "homework" almost everynight.
The thing is, teaching is a calling like the priesthood.
I am constantly finding "great" jobs for her but she just laughs me off. She LOVES teaching and wouldn't trade it for anything.
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Both my parents were teachers. My mom retired from teaching 2nd grade, and my dad is now a principal.
I will go as far to say underpaid, but maybe not as far to back a STRIKE. I dunno. Depends on the situation.
We weren't POOR, more like "comfortable on a strict budjet".
My dad usually held a second part-time job while he was teaching.
They didn't get three months summer vacation - there were always teacher work days and workshops they had to attend. If they wanted more pay, they'd take college classes in the summer. And let's not forget - most school systems are heading for that "year round" schedule.
So, As mentioned above, teachers take their work home with them. The lesson plans, i remember, were the worst on my mom. She had to map out in detail what she would be teaching for the month, day by day. Papers to grade at home...gradebooks...report cards...prep for the next day...it's not all done in that 7 hours a day. And there's always those kids who don't want to be there and the parents could care less, that the teacher must SOMEHOW get through the material. That takes extra time.
Besides the work, there's a lot of emotional baggage a teacher will take home with them, as well. They care about the students even after they are gone (good teachers will, anyway). They have to handle situations but they are also restricted in how they handle them. Not everything is by-the-book. I believe it gets worse the younger you go - imagine babysitting 30 or more 6 year olds all day.
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Robbie said: "their work days start at around 9, but end around 3 (take home work aside, since no one counts that)."
Where is God's name do you live that a teacher's work day does not start until 9:00????
Robby, I hope you've gotten an answer to your question...teachers are underpaid relative to the REAL demands of their jobs.
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wow, both robby and robbie! its notta question i'm asking to find an answer for, rather its a question i'm asking to spark debate interest. some people agree, some people disagree. i just tried to pose both sides of the argument in my opening post. i like to play devil's advocate -- we already work together. Quote:
Where is God's name do you live that a teacher's work day does not start until 9:00????
my grammar school was from 9 - 3:30, if i remember correctly. done so because there were four other grammar schools in town, a junior high, and a high school, all of whom had to share from a limited pool of busses.
Quote:
most teachers take work home EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.
i take work home every single night. including every night in the summer. many people for many jobs do, its not uncommon.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
.
Quote:
Where is God's name do you live that a teacher's work day does not start until 9:00????
my grammar school was from 9 - 3:30, if i remember correctly. done so because there were four other grammar schools in town, a junior high, and a high school, all of whom had to share from a limited pool of busses.
Quote:
most teachers take work home EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.
i take work home every single night. including every night in the summer. many people for many jobs do, its not uncommon.
Well, you were lucky in your grammar school. Mine started at 8:30. And trust me, the teachers had to be there well before 8:30.
Also, my daughter's high school starts at 7:30.
And it's push then on who takes work home.
But I still focus on the VALUE of teachers. Does anyone begrudge what their pediatrician earns? Both teachers and pediatricians have an enormous amount of responsibility in their fields of endeavor.
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yeah, my elementary school was 9-3:30, but my high school was 7:20-2:00. normally, teachers had to be there like 15-30 minutes before students, and had to have one day a week to stay 15-30 later. Quote:
But I still focus on the VALUE of teachers. Does anyone begrudge what their pediatrician earns? Both teachers and pediatricians have an enormous amount of responsibility in their fields of endeavor.
and that, i believe, is really the only valid argument for paying teachers more.
personally, i completely agree that teachers are the cornerstones of society, moving things forward into future generations.
but i don't know if that justifies a pay increase. not that i begrudge the profession or the professionals, nor do i think its somehow less valuable than, say, doctors (whom you could make the claim are over paid).
many medic transport units or even firefighters get paid less. there are homeless shelter or battered women's home workers out there that get paid nothing.
teaching comes with a great deal of benefits, from job security to benefits, etc. i feel vacation dates is a major plus. many taechers will tell you that teaching is something they honestly love -- very few other employees could claim that.
not really trying to spout my opinion, just trying to give the conversation some fuel.
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My elementary school was 8:00 to 3:00, and my junior high was 8:30 to 4:00. High school was 8:15 to 3:15. There, usually teachers would get there between 7:00 and 7:30, and would stay until 4:00 or 4:30.
If the question is if a teacher's salary is proportional to the impact they have on society, then I would have to say no. That being said, I think that if teachers made as much as, say, doctors or lawyers, it would completely undermine the schooling system. Too many would simply join the profession for the material benefits. Some would even make their courses easier only so that their students would get better grades(and thus enabling them to keep their jobs). The focus would inevitably shift from helping others to helping oneself.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
teaching comes with a great deal of benefits, from job security to benefits, etc.
Well, first I have to chuckle at your sentence...did you preview it, Robbie/y?
But regarding tenure, my wife, a 17-year vet, believes that tenure should be abolished. It allows too many poor teachers to retain their jobs.
We can easily extend the argument that cops, firefighters, etc. are also underpaid. I have no argument with that argument.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
teaching comes with a great deal of benefits, from job security to benefits, etc.
Well, first I have to chuckle at your sentence...did you preview it, Robbie/y?
robbie. ... well, rob, really. yes.
anywho, yeah, that was retarded. i meant that they get a great deal of plusses, from job security to benefits (medical n'such)
Quote:
But regarding tenure, my wife, a 17-year vet, believes that tenure should be abolished. It allows too many poor teachers to retain their jobs.
i agree
Quote:
We can easily extend the argument that cops, firefighters, etc. are also underpaid. I have no argument with that argument.
one topic atta time! 
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
anywho, yeah, that was retarded. i meant that they get a great deal of plusses, from job security to benefits (medical n'such)
Dude, lotsa jobs come with medical benefits. Like just about any other job, teachers make a contribution to the benefits' pool like any other job that has medical benefits attached. How does that separate teachers from anybody else?
Do you have a bad teacher experience you want to share with the class, Robby?
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...that was entirely too creepy, even for you, jimothy.
im speaking only with the knowledge of the teachers in my area, whose benefits outweigh those of the "average job," in terms of both range and value.
additionally, there are a number of jobs, salaried and otherwise, that do not receive benefits at all -- and many more who receive not-so-great benefits (like my last job).
lump that in with tenure and the constant hiring needs (relative to most any other job), and those're some pretty sweet plusses.
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I think the real problem isn't the teachers. It's the administrators. The schools are bloated at the top.
Take the school I went to growing up. It was a small town in Upstate New York with about 100 kids in each grade.
We had three principals: Elementary, Jr. High and High School. No assistant principals. Two secretaries.
A lot of the kids went on to colleges. The year I graduated (1982) we had one of the highest percentages of Regents scholars in the area.
Now, the same school has less kids. But there are six principals (Principals, Assistant Principals), two business managers and at least a half dozen secretaries. Any one of whom probably makes more than all three principals combined made when I was a student there.
And the kids, instead of going to college, are flunking out. The school is in the news as one of the worst in the area. Despite taxes having gone up every year.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
...that was entirely too creepy, even for you, jimothy.
I didn't mean it like THAT Robby Bobby. In my experience (since anecdotal evidence seems to be the order of the day in this thread), many who complain about the Educational System and teachers' pay, and teachers in general usually have an axe to grind based on some bad experience they had with a teacher. You know, they think this teacher hated them, treated them badly, gave them an F, that kind of shit.
--Jim
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nossir. i actually had a great educational experience, despite what my spelling and grammar often portray. i went to regular public school, in average sized schools, but really had some phenomenal teachers -- several of whom are the kind that you remember for life. sure, i had my issues with some. but the good far outweighed the bad. Quote:
the G-man said:
I think the real problem isn't the teachers. It's the administrators. The schools are bloated at the top.
there's truth in that.
the superintendant (hi super nintendo chaumers!) in my old town makes a pretty hefty, 6 figure salary, leaving the teachers at their typical, lowly rate.
sure, mebbe the superintendant's job is harder or more time consuming, even, perhaps, greatly so. they should be paid more; but not at that high a percentage.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
I think the real problem isn't the teachers. It's the administrators. The schools are bloated at the top.
there's truth in that.
the superintendant (hi super nintendo chaumers!) in my old town makes a pretty hefty, 6 figure salary, leaving the teachers at their typical, lowly rate.
Six figures???
And it isn't up to him what the teachers make. Those contracts are worked out between the Teachers Union and the individual school boards.
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K....I haven't read this thread fully, but I will in a moment. For the recod though, yes, teachers are vastly underpaid. They put up with today's youth (who possess al of the knowledge that thier teachers wield no real authority...out of fear for thier jobs), and attempt to instill values that were lost before my generation.
They need not only a monetary supplement for thier work, but a series of legal supports as well. There is no way they can properly do thier job (nor should they want to...martyrs, all of them) without the knowledge that thier decisions are going to be supported by not only the local board, but hte coursts as well. These people genuinely want to help the next generation prosper...but they are afraid to take the actions that will make any difference.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
nossir. i actually had a great educational experience, despite what my spelling and grammar often portray.
i went to regular public school, in average sized schools, but really had some phenomenal teachers -- several of whom are the kind that you remember for life.
sure, i had my issues with some. but the good far outweighed the bad.
Quote:
the G-man said:
I think the real problem isn't the teachers. It's the administrators. The schools are bloated at the top.
there's truth in that.
the superintendant (hi super nintendo chaumers!) in my old town makes a pretty hefty, 6 figure salary, leaving the teachers at their typical, lowly rate.
sure, mebbe the superintendant's job is harder or more time consuming, even, perhaps, greatly so. they should be paid more; but not at that high a percentage.
Exactly, one thing i'll never understand is how the "directory of Transportation" gets a higher pay and that of a noticeable difference than a teacher that's given 15 years.
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
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