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Does the information posted here actually ever change anyone’s mind on any subject?
We seem to mostly be deadlocked on subjects, polarized by our general political stance (though that is not always the guiding factor, I’ve seen conservatives support gay marriage and liberals object to it) and no quarter is given.
Are there any exceptions to this rule?
Has talking to various liberals and gay posters convinced any of you conservatives that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality?
Have any of the liberals come to see George W Bush as a great president?
I’m as bad as anyone, debating has changed few of my opinions, I’ve merely taken arguments that agree with me for when I debate with my friends on the physical plane.
Am I too stubborn or have I just not heard enough to have my mind changed?
Just wondering.
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Actually, I find debate to very constructive and useful for my own personal process.
Jim
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I think the value of the debates that go on here is that they open you up to other opinions.
I don't believe that an argument neccesarily has to change your outlook on a particular issue to be of significance. If you can appreciate another person's point of view and get a sense of why they might hold this opinion, then I think that can be tremendously beneficial.
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i'm willing to say that the opportunity for change and education on another side is readily available here more than any other place i encounter on a daily basis. but... stuborness overwhelmingly depowers the perspective. sadly, this is not just the result of those reading, but those posting.
posters here are often more focused on proving others wrong than themselves right, and neither is productive.
personally, i find some of what whomod posts (and i dont mean to pick) to be offensive. not 'offensive' in the "how dare you sir" way, followed by the removal of a glove, then a brisk slap across the face with said glove. but more so in the "THIS IS HOW IT IS, YOU ARE WRONG" kinda way, and the addition of further proof, in the form of a bouncing smiley face.
to me, after reading something like that, it doesn't matter if that person is, in fact, right. i simply no longer want to listen, because its no longer a conversation. thats not to say this is all whomod does, nor am i saying he's the only one, nor am i saying i never do the same.
however, someone like, say, wednesday or chant or dark knight or thedoctor or even whomod, on occasion, will offer a viewpoint that differs greatly from mine, but in such a way that i'm at least enlightened to their viewpoint.
not that i'm then so-inclined to change my own, but i get a true(er) notion of "the other side" of whatever topic, and a better handle on what it'd be like walking in their shoes.
i'm never hung up on "winning" debates, because i've accepted the fact that its damn near impossible. i can't make anyone think like me anymore than they can make me think like them. so, there's rarely a case i can recall where i've "switched sides" on something.
but, hearing another's viewpoints is simply fascinating to me. i love getting the opportunity to flesh out the debate, and fully realizing the potential of the other half. and, that much, the boards are wonderful for.
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There are a few primary ways in wich I find the debates here productive. The first is that you often encounter points of agreement where you wouldn't expect to. You also "get to know" the opposition. For instance you asked if talking to homosexuals convinces any religious conservitive that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, well no, you don't regect your entire moral system just because you talked with someone, but one thing (and this happened for me long before coming to these boards) is you shatter the illusion that homosexuals are "worse" than anyone else that they're seething degenerates laying in wait to corrupt you. My faith teaches that we are all sinners and to treat any one group worse than another is its self a sin. The other way I find it productive is it forces you to answer the tough questions. I don't want to be a conservitive because I insulate myself from the other side, but because I hear both sides and make my decision. It also helps when debating in person, because you've heard the argument before. I think one reson that no one ever changes on line (or rarely) is because you can insulate yourself from cognitive dissenence, the process of changing deeply held beliefs is verry traumatic experience and you really have to be in perosn to ease a person through the process. I've changed peoples mind in person, but I think too many elements are missing on on line conversations.
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I'm probably very stubborn(I am Texan, afterall), so I wouldn't say that I've have my mind changed on a regular basis, but I do enjoy the debates here, mainly because I'm not constantly tuned in to current events(so, essentially, this forum is my news station), and this gives me the chance to get insight into views from both sides of the political spectrum. It also gives me the opportunity to articulate my own views.
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Most of the time, I don't find the debates at all productive, because of stubborn people on one side or the other. Also, people who can't discuss and compare two different viewpoints without taking a cheap shot at the other side are really annoying (and when things get hostile, as they do quite often, it's an ugly spectacle.) Nobody has ever changed my mind by demonizing liberals or conservatives. Things like that destroy a debate - instead of exchanging ideas, you're just throwing punches. I sometimes wonder if some people just post here to attack someone, to do whatever venting they can't do elsewhere. I left the boards (temporarily, it turned out) because I was getting fed up with discussions turning into partisan bitchslapfests. It's even worse when people misinterpret what you're saying and twist it around to make you look bad. In the real world, all debates seem to turn into ugly partisan bitchslapfests, and it seems to me that the diea of this forum was to get away from this sort of thing and actually talk things out. It's genuinely distressing that so few people are able to do that.
However, there are some times when I'm able to have a real conversation or debate with someone - not too often, because I'm not argumentative by nature unless seriously provoked, and even if I don't agree with the person, it's nice, because it is a chance to see things from a different perspective, and to prove that the idiotic labels people attach to each other don't apply.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2004-09-23 1:08 AM.
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I think alot of the pot shots taken are just in jest and all in good fun. I'm rarely offended by what people say except when they get down to acctually insulting someone personally.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I think alot of the pot shots taken are just in jest and all in good fun. I'm rarely offended by what people say except when they get down to acctually insulting someone personally.
It's not just a question of offending people. Insults simply aren't productive. When you're discussing serious issues with someone, and you start pitching insults at each other, they detract from the seriousness of whatever point you or the other guy are trying to make. Nothing positive comes of it. At the end of the day, even if nobody's offened, you still haven't resolved anything because you were too busy trashing each other.
Which is a major reason why I hate it when debates turn ugly, and why I condemn what I see as hatred between liberals and conservatives or Democrats and Republicans, and their constant need to demonize each other - not just here, but in the real world. Becuase all they're accomplishing is dividing people and causing them to hate each other. What's the point? People don't have to agree with each other or see eye to eye on everything. Disagreement, discussion, and debate are positive things. But hatred and divisiveness is going way too far. It's idiotic and self-destructive for so many reasons, but the top reason is that it prevents any geuine debate or discussion from taking place - and we need genuine debate and discussion, especially with everything going on today.
As for the people around here and how serious they are, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the extremist liberals or conservatives around here are quite serious about their attacks on the opposition, although some people are just natural rabble rousers who like to jerk people's chains and are indeed kidding. It's sometimes hard to tell on a message board whether someone's being serious or just futzing around.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
As for the people around here and how serious they are, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the extremist liberals or conservatives around here are quite serious about their attacks on the opposition, although some people are just natural rabble rousers who like to jerk people's chains and are indeed kidding. It's sometimes hard to tell on a message board whether someone's being serious or just futzing around.
That's probobly true.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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This forum is nowhere near as productive as it should be, considering the intellect that can be found in every debate thread. I don't think any of the people who frequent this forum are dumb by any stretch of the imagination. Truth is, I've been to several other boards and I have yet to find such a large group of diversely minded smart people. Other boards are either filled with dumb-dumbs who get confused at two syllables or more, or drones who join boards for the ego boost they get when they can use big words to pat others on the back for thinking the exact same way as themselves.
Or perhaps these forums are less productive because the people are so smart. Smart people spend their lives outsmarting and outdebating their peers, so they tend to be set in their ways. Smart people think they're too smart. They tend to bicker the same as (if not more than) anyone else. They just use bigger words.
Past 11 at night, I babble.
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I thought that I was alot smarter before I had my mind changed, ever since I've been quite cognicent of my mental shortcomings, but I do agree that the cllaber of debate I get here if far greater than I get most places. I just wish those pesky liberals would stop interupting 
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
This forum is nowhere near as productive as it should be, considering the intellect that can be found in every debate thread. I don't think any of the people who frequent this forum are dumb by any stretch of the imagination. Truth is, I've been to several other boards and I have yet to find such a large group of diversely minded smart people. Other boards are either filled with dumb-dumbs who get confused at two syllables or more, or drones who join boards for the ego boost they get when they can use big words to pat others on the back for thinking the exact same way as themselves.
Oh. So you've visited the Knoll?
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Nope, but it sounds like a great place to visit and raise general havok in for about a week  .
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Which is a major reason why I hate it when debates turn ugly, and why I condemn what I see as hatred between liberals and conservatives or Democrats and Republicans, and their constant need to demonize each other - not just here, but in the real world. Becuase all they're accomplishing is dividing people and causing them to hate each other. What's the point? People don't have to agree with each other or see eye to eye on everything. Disagreement, discussion, and debate are positive things. But hatred and divisiveness is going way too far. It's idiotic and self-destructive for so many reasons, but the top reason is that it prevents any geuine debate or discussion from taking place - and we need genuine debate and discussion, especially with everything going on today.
As for the people around here and how serious they are, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the extremist liberals or conservatives around here are quite serious about their attacks on the opposition, although some people are just natural rabble rousers who like to jerk people's chains and are indeed kidding. It's sometimes hard to tell on a message board whether someone's being serious or just futzing around.
Again, Al Franken may call you a liar but Ann Coulter will call you a traitor.
Yet somehow the left is portrayed as being filled with the hate filled irrationals.
I just tend to see ones politics as being a product of your circumstances and experiences. Which could certainly explain to me the demographics of party loyalty IMO. It might explain mine.
Plus I tend to think people nowadays tend to filter their news mentally based on this prior biases. I know what I try to do is hammer the points that I feel are being ignored. That may annoy Rob and he might find it as me trying to declare myself as the keeper of irrefutable truth. But I'd have to ask him, what part of the news did you take with you this week? The fact that Republican leaders were saying that things were getting progressively worse in Iraq. A sentiment echoed by some of the commanders in the field in Iraq (not to mention just simply looking at the news) or did you focus and take comfort in Bush saying the exact opposite?
Did you take pleasure and comfort in Bush declaring Iraq and Afghanistan being "democracies" or did you notice this?:
U.S. Hand Seen in Afghan Election
and .......
Quote:
Iraq, U.S. Differ on Prisoner Release
By Thomas S. Mulligan Times Staff Writer
BAGHDAD — In a sign of confusion over who runs post-Hussein Iraq, the United States on Wednesday contradicted an announcement by an Iraqi government ministry that a female Iraqi scientist in U.S. custody would soon be released.
The Iraqi announcement Wednesday morning came in the midst of a crisis involving a British hostage and seemed to address kidnappers' demands that Iraqi female prisoners be released. Within hours, U.S. Embassy officials were denying that any release was imminent. Senior Iraqi officials later backtracked, declaring that Rihab Taha, nicknamed "Dr. Germ" for her alleged biological-weapons research, would no longer be freed on bail.
I think that in these times, "truth" is whatever we want it to be. Depending on which pack we identify most with.
I really don't consider myself that liberal. Still, I think everything has become so polarized that to express dissaprroval of Bush instantly places you in the "liberal/leftist/traitor" corner and makes you subject to all sorts of assumptions and generalizations not to mention making anything you say subject to being instantly wrong. Why?, because you're on the left and i'm not.
I think I mentioned that I turned away from the Republican party when i came to the conclusion that it was made up of superficial good feeling and patriotism with the underbelly being stuff that is a polar opposite of the rhetoric. I think if anything, i try to back that up. Which IMO that might not sit well with people who really don't want to hear that kind of 'unpatriotic leftist nonsense'.
Or as Reagan said, "I didn't leave the [Republican ] party, it left me". I actually still identify with some of Buchanan, McCain's and Goldwaters stuff. Which IMO I don't see represented much by Bush or the neoconservatives in his company.
There i see the same people and the remnants of the people and mentality who preached freedom but toppled and interfered democratically elected governments and installed [U.S. friendly]brutal dictators from Central America to South America to the middle East and all for our own short term selfish or ideological gain. Which I think if you laid that unspoken history out to most American that way, they'd have to agee with me.
That's where I com from. Don't give me flag draped, God fearing, apple pie tasting fantasy and rhetoric, just give me the facts laid bare and not some feel good comforting illusion designed to stave off the very real terror some of us fear right now. If that's 'America-hating', then I guess that'll have to be your opinion.
Yeah, it's heavy. It has to be IMO. Because as we're constantly reminded, these are extraordinary times. And I think a lot of people of my political persuation are finding that in these 'extraordinary times' you have to kind of shout to be heard above the official line..
...and the fact that I feel people seem to want to beleive any reassuring thing they're told nowadays. Like yes, Iraq was responsible for 9/11, yes they had WMD's but we took care of that, yes you're safer now that Iraq is tilting towards islamic theocracy in spite of their so called [U.S. picked] democracy. Yes, you're safer if we don't mention Osama Bin Laden or Afghanistan anymore. Just rest assured that we captured most of Al Queda and they haven't replaced those leaders already. Rest assured that all those Iraqi's fighting us would be in New York killing you if not for the war. If you vote for him and not me, you will DIE!
I myself think this here is debate designed to consider that things aern't quite as we're being told. Really, I can't understand why some here apparenly prefer the echoing of their POV and anything apart from that is everything from a distracting annoyance to me wanting to prove i'm absolutely right (funny how others on the right don't get that accusation..why, well it must be BECAUSE THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!) to me flat out being a commie traitor.
Deal.
p.s. This story reflects some of that hypocritical attitude and our as of yet unchanged history of decidely non-democratic interference in other countries affairs, that I was talking about. This is a countries transition to REAL democracy, despite our meddling.
And of course the story of the United Fruit Comapny in Guatemala and the near-coup in Venezuela 2 years ago. But that's hating America if we decide to comment on history that is well known and discussed in most of the world but largely unknown here at home because to discuss it and thus try to remedy this attitude among our leaders would be 'hating America'. Better to think people 'hate us for our freedom' and leave it at that.
And that's the essense of debate. Bringing up things not regularly discussed and trying to make them fit into a conversation. Simply trusting press releases and speeches isn't enough IMO Going on faith isn't enough. You have to consider history ALL OF IT, and also consider everything you're told with a degree of skepticism. Be it from the right or the left wing. I think skepticism and questioning authority is the root of democracy and trust and obedience is the root of authoritarianism. I think we're being led though down a slope though of thinking distrust and questioning our leadership as being the path towards treason and our own destruction.
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Quote:
whomod said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Which is a major reason why I hate it when debates turn ugly, and why I condemn what I see as hatred between liberals and conservatives or Democrats and Republicans, and their constant need to demonize each other - not just here, but in the real world. Becuase all they're accomplishing is dividing people and causing them to hate each other. What's the point? People don't have to agree with each other or see eye to eye on everything. Disagreement, discussion, and debate are positive things. But hatred and divisiveness is going way too far. It's idiotic and self-destructive for so many reasons, but the top reason is that it prevents any geuine debate or discussion from taking place - and we need genuine debate and discussion, especially with everything going on today.
As for the people around here and how serious they are, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the extremist liberals or conservatives around here are quite serious about their attacks on the opposition, although some people are just natural rabble rousers who like to jerk people's chains and are indeed kidding. It's sometimes hard to tell on a message board whether someone's being serious or just futzing around.
Again, Al Franken may call you a liar but Ann Coulter will call you a traitor.
Yet somehow the left is portrayed as being filled with the hate filled irrationals.
I just tend to see ones politics as being a product of your circumstances and experiences. Which could certainly explain to me the demographics of party loyalty IMO. It might explain mine.
Plus I tend to think people nowadays tend to filter their news mentally based on this prior biases. I know what I try to do is hammer the points that I feel are being ignored. That may annoy Rob and he might find it as me trying to declare myself as the keeper of irrefutable truth. But I'd have to ask him, what part of the news did you take with you this week? The fact that Republican leaders were saying that things were getting progressively worse in Iraq. A sentiment echoed by some of the commanders in the field in Iraq (not to mention just simply looking at the news) or did you focus and take comfort in Bush saying the exact opposite?
Did you take pleasure and comfort in Bush declaring Iraq and Afghanistan being "democracies" or did you notice this?:
U.S. Hand Seen in Afghan Election
and .......
Quote:
Iraq, U.S. Differ on Prisoner Release
By Thomas S. Mulligan Times Staff Writer
BAGHDAD — In a sign of confusion over who runs post-Hussein Iraq, the United States on Wednesday contradicted an announcement by an Iraqi government ministry that a female Iraqi scientist in U.S. custody would soon be released.
The Iraqi announcement Wednesday morning came in the midst of a crisis involving a British hostage and seemed to address kidnappers' demands that Iraqi female prisoners be released. Within hours, U.S. Embassy officials were denying that any release was imminent. Senior Iraqi officials later backtracked, declaring that Rihab Taha, nicknamed "Dr. Germ" for her alleged biological-weapons research, would no longer be freed on bail.
I think that in these times, "truth" is whatever we want it to be. Depending on which pack we identify most with.
I really don't consider myself that liberal. Still, I think everything has become so polarized that to express dissaprroval of Bush instantly places you in the "liberal/leftist/traitor" corner and makes you subject to all sorts of assumptions and generalizations not to mention making anything you say subject to being instantly wrong. Why?, because you're on the left and i'm not.
I think I mentioned that I turned away from the Republican party when i came to the conclusion that it was made up of superficial good feeling and patriotism with the underbelly being stuff that is a polar opposite of the rhetoric. I think if anything, i try to back that up. Which IMO that might not sit well with people who really don't want to hear that kind of 'unpatriotic leftist nonsense'.
Or as Reagan said, "I didn't leave the [Republican ] party, it left me". I actually still identify with some of Buchanan, McCain's and Goldwaters stuff. Which IMO I don't see represented much by Bush or the neoconservatives in his company.
There i see the same people and the remnants of the people and mentality who preached freedom but toppled and interfered democratically elected governments and installed [U.S. friendly]brutal dictators from Central America to South America to the middle East and all for our own short term selfish or ideological gain. Which I think if you laid that unspoken history out to most American that way, they'd have to agee with me.
That's where I com from. Don't give me flag draped, God fearing, apple pie tasting fantasy and rhetoric, just give me the facts laid bare and not some feel good comforting illusion designed to stave off the very real terror some of us fear right now. If that's 'America-hating', then I guess that'll have to be your opinion.
Yeah, it's heavy. It has to be IMO. Because as we're constantly reminded, these are extraordinary times. And I think a lot of people of my political persuation are finding that in these 'extraordinary times' you have to kind of shout to be heard above the official line..
...and the fact that I feel people seem to want to beleive any reassuring thing they're told nowadays. Like yes, Iraq was responsible for 9/11, yes they had WMD's but we took care of that, yes you're safer now that Iraq is tilting towards islamic theocracy in spite of their so called [U.S. picked] democracy. Yes, you're safer if we don't mention Osama Bin Laden or Afghanistan anymore. Just rest assured that we captured most of Al Queda and they haven't replaced those leaders already. Rest assured that all those Iraqi's fighting us would be in New York killing you if not for the war. If you vote for him and not me, you will DIE!
I myself think this here is debate designed to consider that things aern't quite as we're being told. Really, I can't understand why some here apparenly prefer the echoing of their POV and anything apart from that is everything from a distracting annoyance to me wanting to prove i'm absolutely right (funny how others on the right don't get that accusation..why, well it must be BECAUSE THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!) to me flat out being a commie traitor.
Deal.
p.s. This story reflects some of that hypocritical attitude and our as of yet unchanged history of decidely non-democratic interference in other countries affairs, that I was talking about. This is a countries transition to REAL democracy, despite our meddling.
And of course the story of the United Fruit Comapny in Guatemala and the near-coup in Venezuela 2 years ago. But that's hating America if we decide to comment on history that is well known and discussed in most of the world but largely unknown here at home because to discuss it and thus try to remedy this attitude among our leaders would be 'hating America'. Better to think people 'hate us for our freedom' and leave it at that.
And that's the essense of debate. Bringing up things not regularly discussed and trying to make them fit into a conversation. Simply trusting press releases and speeches isn't enough IMO Going on faith isn't enough. You have to consider history ALL OF IT, and also consider everything you're told with a degree of skepticism. Be it from the right or the left wing. I think skepticism and questioning authority is the root of democracy and trust and obedience is the root of authoritarianism. I think we're being led though down a slope though of thinking distrust and questioning our leadership as being the path towards treason and our own destruction.
I don't think you're a traitor, but I'm glad you answered teh true question of this thread. Why are all the conservitives wrong in the manner in which they debate and why are you right? We love you anyway.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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These past few days, we've seem to devolve from heated, stubborn debate to simplistic whiny pot-shots.
I think I need another vacation...
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Silly DK, we've always resorted to simplistic whiny pot-shots.
Tsk, tsk. Someone hasn't been reading these Deep Thoughts threads all the way through.
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imaliberaltellmewhattothink.com makes an article about Bush gayness.  Bush is gay  No he's not Yes he is (article) No he's not (article) Yes he is You're so stupid for saying that, what do you care if he's gay or not? What's this got to do with anything? Where's the proof? You're only saying this because you're desperate. You liberals are all the same. The next day: imaconservativetellmewhtotthink.com makes an article about Kerry gayness. Kerry is gay No he's not Yes he is (article) No he's not (article) Yes he is You're so stupid for saying that, what do you care if he's gay or not? What's this got to do with anything? Where's the proof? You're only saying this because you're desperate. You liberals are all the same. Whomod once made a fucktard list. Most if not all of the conservative were in it. Dave the Wonder Boy once made a list in the same spirit. Most if not all of the liberals were in it.
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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That's not correct, Mxy.
Whomod attacked people who consistently post conservative views (myself, Mr JLA, and G-man included) as "Fucktards".
Whomod posted this list, mocking those who don't share his political views, based solely on their political views.
Whereas I, after repeated attacks on me personally, attempting to discredit me personally, I've repeatedly referred to "the 6 or 7 liberal jerks" who relentlessly launch personal attacks on me, and through deceitful means, try to discredit my political opinion.
Whomod's remarks were offensive in nature.
My own remarks were a defensive counter-response to repeated attacks on me.
I respectfully disagree with JQ, Chant and other liberals who can discuss the issues without attacking me personally. It's not all liberals I lash back at. Just the partisan schmucks who launch personal attacks on me.
So my comments are not "in the same spirit". Despite your multiple attempts to paint it that way.
---------------------
Welcome back board, page 5
HERE
Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said:
humorless buttheads call me humorless for responding to nonsense I'd rather ignore. The problem is not just playful insults like "DTWB is a homo!" like is directed at Rob Kamphausen, Franta and others. The problem is that liberal assholes have so thoroughly woven their insults with serious accusations, so that any response to counter the personal smears can be characterized as my over-reacting to "jokes", under a veil of plausible deniability that such comments are only meant as "humor".
But the jokes are not playful, and I think we all know that.
and see also:
Do liberals HATE America?, page 6
HERE
and the origin of the whole "fucktard" thing:
HERE
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Your alt ID knows your deepest secrets and evil desires.
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Whomod once made a fucktard list. Most if not all of the conservative were in it. Dave the Wonder Boy once made a list in the same spirit. Most if not all of the liberals were in it.
I wasn't. I never get on any fucktard lists .
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Whomod once made a fucktard list. Most if not all of the conservative were in it. Dave the Wonder Boy once made a list in the same spirit. Most if not all of the liberals were in it.
I wasn't. I never get on any fucktard lists .
I share your dissapointment.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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I've posted the story before but apparently it still hasn't registered.
A while back, one or 2 of the posters here was/were going around like a tattling girlie men to some other message board where I presume their enemies reside and posting the details of comments/revelations made there as if to "expose" them. I think the guys over there were mad that some of the more hard nosed right wingers here (Dave TWB, making friends and influencing people again, I think) were hypoctrites because they profess wholesomeness and yet participate in the porn section here. Anyways...I thought the tattling/spying was rather stupid and childish so I went over there and registered to see if they'd take my bait and return with whatever lame assed immflammatory comment I made up over there regarding the people I most spar and disagree with over here (who also happened to be mostly the same guys sparring with that other MB) and bring it over here with a "look what whomod sez!!" tattle tattle. And sure enough the guy did. (I'm not sure but I think it might have been Pariah, don't quote me on that though, it was a long time ago and it was merely a distraction for that day). So he posts it over here with the usual outrage and huffing and puffing and afterwards JLA has ran with it ever since on his sig line. The 'fucktard" word I borrowed from that MB.
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"Huffing and puffing"?  Heh! I posted it cuz' I got a kick outta it. Plus, seeing you on the Knoll was a pleasure all on its own. That REALLY made me laugh. 
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For what it is worth, being a lawyer, I have to be able to have someone tell me I'm wrong (or worse), watch them attempt to convince third parties I'm wrong (or worse) and then go have a beer with them.
I tend to view most of the exchanges here as good natured needling and debate for the sake of fun, sort of an electronic version of a spirited pub conversation with friends.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
For what it is worth, being a lawyer, I have to be able to have someone tell me I'm wrong (or worse), watch them attempt to convince third parties I'm wrong (or worse) and then go have a beer with them.
I tend to view most of the exchanges here as good natured needling and debate for the sake of fun, sort of an electronic version of a spirited pub conversation with friends.
Agreed, one thing I get a kick out of is essentailly telling someone to f--k off in one thread then opening onother thread and telling them how right on they are! ... obsoive:
Quote:
hypoctrites because they profess wholesomeness and yet participate in the porn section here.
right on!
Y'know folks there's a bill in both the house and senate that would radically change the tax system in the US and it's even gotten the attention of Bush, so if he gets re-elected it could be a real possibility. (see signature)
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said:
That's not correct, Mxy.
Whomod attacked people who consistently post conservative views (myself, Mr JLA, and G-man included) as "Fucktards".
Whomod posted this list, mocking those who don't share his political views, based solely on their political views.
Whereas I, after repeated attacks on me personally, attempting to discredit me personally, I've repeatedly referred to "the 6 or 7 liberal jerks" who relentlessly launch personal attacks on me, and through deceitful means, try to discredit my political opinion.
Whomod's remarks were offensive in nature.
My own remarks were a defensive counter-response to repeated attacks on me.
I respectfully disagree with JQ, Chant and other liberals who can discuss the issues without attacking me personally. It's not all liberals I lash back at. Just the partisan schmucks who launch personal attacks on me.
So my comments are not "in the same spirit". Despite your multiple attempts to paint it that way.
Just like politics, it's matter of perspective. The fact that you don't realize how much like whomod you are shows that you can't look at these kind of things with an objective view. I agree that whomod's list was more mean-spirited than yours... but they're not THAT different.
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Lists were made, names were listed.
Your alt ID knows your deepest secrets and evil desires.
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I agree that whomod's list was more mean-spirited than yours... but they're not THAT different.
Considering I only used the 'Knoll' word "fucktard" once and not even on these MB's should tell you that that list was meant as 'bait' for Pariah who was happily going back and forth between boards as the town gossip and not actually anything serious.
Now I don't know about Dave TWB's list because I don't recall ever seeing it. Regardless, so what? I tend to agree with G-Man's post above. I think all of us here pretty much have a shared online history (from back in the old DCMB's) and more often than not have more things in common that not. I've said as much before. It's just a conversation between peers.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
whomod said:
Considering I only used the 'Knoll' word "fucktard" once and not even on these MB's should tell you that that list was meant as 'bait' for Pariah who was happily going back and forth between boards as the town gossip and not actually anything serious.
Suurrrre Whomod, suuuuurrrrrre.
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
whomod said:Considering I only used the 'Knoll' word "fucktard" once and not even on these MB's should tell you that that list was meant as 'bait' for Pariah who was happily going back and forth between boards as the town gossip and not actually anything serious.
Yeah, OK, but, see, the problem is I don't buy that. Sorry.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Are you sorry Mxy? Are you really?
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Just makin' sure.
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She is sorry, I have proof
Quote:
Remember how CBS announced last spring that "60 Minutes II," its Wednesday newsmagazine, would heretofore be called "60 Minutes," just like the respected Sunday mainstay on which the newer show was modeled?
As the network looked to isolate the damage done while backpedaling Monday on its ability to vouch for documents used in a Sept. 8 report on President Bush's National Guard service in the 1970s, the weeknight news program where the story broke (and fell apart) was abruptly redubbed "60 Minutes Wednesday" in official CBS statements.
The problem is that the casualties of CBS' stubborn faith in the documents provided by a source it now says "deliberately misled" the network may not be limited to a single program in "60 Minutes Wednesday," a single correspondent in Dan Rather or even to a single news organization in CBS News.
With public trust in traditional media now challenged almost daily, this is the kind of lapse that hurts all legitimate news outlets by widening the credibility gap.
CBS, once the undisputed gold standard of broadcast journalism, is no fly-by-night operation. It has standards and procedures that are supposed to prevent this sort of thing. But the system broke down.
Which fuels those who want to see bias and agendas at every turn.
Which hardly dispels the notion media are ripe for manipulation.
Which leads viewers to watch all television news with a more skeptical, cynical eye.
And for what? To prove Bush, like so many of his generation, got preferential military treatment during the Vietnam War, something most of his detractors (and even many of his supporters) already assume.
Even those inclined to see this CBS misstep as an honest mistake must be disappointed it took Rather and company so long to concede what so many others saw almost immediately, that there might be real doubts about these documents.
The network still won't say they are bogus, only that it's no longer sure they're not.
Mistakes are made all the time in the news business. (In the rush to make deadline Sunday, I referred to Michael Imperioli, who won an Emmy for his portrayal of mobster Christopher Moltisanti on HBO's "The Sopranos," as "Christopher Imperioli" in Monday's paper.) It's how those errors are dealt with that is telling.
Rather and CBS News dug in their heels until a weekend confrontation with the network's source for the documents, who had not been identified in CBS' original report. Rather then addressed the problems with the Sept. 8 story on "The CBS Evening News."
"At the time, CBS News and this reporter fully believed the documents were genuine," Rather said. "Tonight, after further investigation, we can no longer say that. The documents were provided to CBS News by a former commander in the Texas National Guard, Bill Burkett. He did not come to us. We went to him and asked him for the documents.
"Burkett is well-known in National Guard circles for a long battle over his medical benefits and for trying -- for several years now -- to discredit President Bush's military service record. Burkett initially told CBS News he got the documents from a fellow Guardsman. But, when we interviewed Burkett this past weekend, he changed his story and told us he got the documents from a different source, one we cannot verify."
CBS News boss Andrew Heyward said in a statement that, because of this admission by Burkett, the network "cannot prove that the documents are authentic, which is the only acceptable journalistic standard to justify using them in the report. We should not have used them. That was a mistake, which we deeply regret."
Everyone who cares about the news business should
Michael Savage, the outrageous talk show host who was fired from MSNBC on Monday for telling a caller to "get AIDS and die," fought back Tuesday, saying he was reacting to a crank caller.
Savage, the most successful radio host ever to emerge from the Bay Area, said his controversial comments were aimed only at the caller, and that he thought he was off the air when he said them. He also blasted MSNBC for criticizing him.
"I'm sitting in front of the camera. I have no control over that," Savage said. "In radio, I have total control. . . . He got really vile with me . . . I meant to insult him personally, not all people with AIDS."
On his Web site, www.michaelsavage.com, Savage apologized to gays, and for causing anyone pain with his comments.
The apology is not enough to save his show. MSNBC spokesman Jeremy Gaines refused to comment on Savage's response and would only reiterate an earlier statement that Savage "made an extremely inappropriate remark. The decision to cancel the program was not a difficult one."
SAVAGE FEELS 'INJURED'
Savage said those remarks stung.
"They didn't have to make a comment which in any way injured me," Savage said. "They put the leper bells around me. I'm dead in the water on television. "
Savage, 61, has drawn fire since he first showed up on San Francisco's KSFO (560 AM) in 1994, when the station adopted a conservative talk radio format. The former Michael Weiner, an herbalist and nutritionist who had written 18 books, reinvented himself as a vitriolic talk show host, and became a phenomenon.
Last week, he jumped to rival KNEW (910 AM) in a lucrative deal. His show is heard nationally on 300 radio stations, reaching about 5 million people.
MSNBC, the cable network jointly owned by NBC (a unit of General Electric) and Microsoft, hired Savage in February to boost its sagging ratings.
MSNBC WAS 'WARNED'
"It's fair to say that we warned MSNBC that something like this would happen eventually," said Cathy Renna, news media director for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, an advocacy group.
GLAAD, which had long objected to what it viewed as Savage's homophobic rants, had led an advertiser boycott of Savage's show, "The Savage Nation," that kept big consumer companies like Kraft, Procter and Gamble, and Dell Computer off his sponsor list.
Jeff Perlstein, executive director of Media Alliance in San Francisco, said the organization "was alarmed at his hiring in the first place, particularly because (MSNBC) was replacing Phil Donahue, who was someone fostering lots of civic participation in society, with Michael Savage, who is known for all sorts of hate speech."
Savage believes liberal groups are stifling his First Amendment rights. Perlstein said he supports Savage's rights, but not on public airwaves, and Renna said she objected to Savage wrapping his opinions in the mantle of NBC's journalistic credibility.
On his radio show Tuesday, Savage showed no sign of shelving his combative persona, assailing President Bush (for comments about slavery), Chicago Cubs manager Dusty Baker (for comments about race), fellow conservative host Bill O'Reilly (for criticizing Savage's televised remarks) and Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg (a "radical left-wing buck-toothed hag").
"I'm proud of my work on television," Savage told one caller. "I was the first one in MSNBC history to dig up the photos of the gassed Kurds. . . . I made America see what Saddam Hussein had really done."
At another point, he said: "I slept quite well. I slept like a baby. I snoozed like a lamb. Because I believe in freedom of speech. The American people understand what went on. I am the underdog. I am Daniel in the lions' den. I am a victim. They know very very well that the left are like jackals in this country. They do not believe in freedom of speech, they only believe in freedom of their speech."
Savage's firing was precipitated by an active prankster calling his show. Bob Foster, 39, a Sacramento computer technician, says he's been on CNN 25 times -- including three times on Larry King's show -- and once convinced a Fox News host that he was witnessing an earthquake, when he was really making the whole thing up. Foster usually gives a plug to his favorite radio show, "Don and Mike," which emanates from Washington, D.C.
Foster called Savage's show Saturday when Savage was doing what he described as a "schtick" about airline horror stories. Foster started a yarn about someone smoking in a plane's bathroom, and then, in a non sequitur, said,
" 'Don and Mike' should take over your show so you can go to a dentist appointment, because your teeth are really bad."
Most of that comment was bleeped off the airwaves, but what Savage said was not. Instead, his rant will likely live in infamy.
He asked Foster if he was a "sodomite," and when Foster replied yes, Savage said -- according to a transcript posted on GLAAD's Web site (www.glaad.org), along with the video: "Oh, you're one of the sodomites! You should only get AIDS and die, you pig! How's that? Why don't you see if you can sue me, you pig? You got nothing better than to put me down, you piece of garbage? You got nothing to do today? Go eat a sausage and choke on it. Get trichinosis. OK, got another nice caller here who's busy because he didn't have a nice night in the bathhouse and is angry at me today?"
Savage said he immediately asked if that got on the air, but didn't receive an answer.
He said his show had been gaining traction. According to MSNBC, it had a viewership of about 347,000 total viewers.
Although that is a small rating -- less than a single percentage point -- Savage said he had dinner with MSNBC President Erik Sorenson two weeks ago, and Sorenson told him, "We don't care about your ratings. We love your show."
Sorenson, through spokesman Gaines, declined to comment.
"They were too quick to jump the gun," Savage said. "It's been a struggle from day one. They don't want to switch to anything moderate or conservative. The bias is very liberal."
Foster, the prankster, said he's already getting a lot of "hate mail from the Savage nation."
"My intention was not for him to get fired. My intention was to drop the 'Don and Mike' name,' " Foster said.
In fact, Foster is a fan of Savage's show, and he picked him for one simple reason: "I look for a reaction."
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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What annoys me about this whole thing (politics) is that people from one side are outraged by things the other side does, while the people from that other side justify it... and when the opposite situation happens the roles are inverted without any problems. What's annoying is how outraged people seem to get. That kind of reaction seems honest but, deep down, is it? Or is it nothing but an automatic extension of the person's chosen political side? I can understand that people think differently, but I can't accept that they would react in such a... I don't know, simple and predictable way. Like I said, an automatic reaction. When you read about the other side doing something, you gotta ask yourself "would I be so outraged if I read about my side doing the same thing?". We're all human beings here, and we're essentially pretty much alike... I think we can agree that we share the same basic values... then why is it that something as trivial as politics defines what people from a group you like and dislike, what outrages you and what doesn't?
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