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According to the BBC, Arafat's health is declining fast, there are even rumours he is in a coma (that page may well update to Arafat croaked eventually). Now, I think his ability to improve the Israel/Palestine debate has long since faded, but what are the likely effects on the peace process there? Is he likely to be replaced by someone who is more able to push for peace, or will this give more power to those whose vision doesn't go beyond terrorim and revenge?
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I just heard a report that he WAS dead. I hope this news is true. *bracing myself for a shitstorm now*
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I've always had a bad feeling that Arafat was the 'calm one' of the PLO.
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It says here that Israel is claiming he is dead, but the hospital is denying it. Doesn't matter if he is or not, I don't think it will be long.
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its always sad to see the passing of a terrosist murderer......
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And another thing,
fuck you france for giving him medical care.
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I actually hope he's not dead.
If he's alive, he's sure to be in pain from whatever it is he's suffering from. The longer he lives, the longer he can suffer.
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lookit darknight plagerisin' hallmark cards!
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...mi_ea/arafat_43Quote:
By LARA SUKHTIAN, Associated Press Writer
CLAMART, France - A gravely ill Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) reportedly slipped into a coma and anxious Palestinian officials held an emergency meeting Thursday on how to prevent unrest while their 75-year-old leader was fighting for his life.
A swirl of reports that Arafat died were quashed by doctors at a French military hospital, who said he was alive. Arafat's aides, however, said his condition was very serious.
Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia assumed some of Arafat's financial powers, a Palestinian official said.
A senior Palestinian official said Arafat was in a coma in the intensive care unit.
Arafat's chief of staff, Ramzi Khoury, called an Associated Press reporter from Paris and told him: "I am standing next to the president's bed, he is in grave condition."
Arafat's personal physician, Dr. Ashraf Kurdi, told Israel TV's Channel Two that Arafat was still alive.
There also were media reports that Arafat had died or was brain dead. The Israeli network reported that Arafat was brain dead but remained on life support.
Kurdi told Dubai-based Al-Arabiya TV that a brain scan showed that Arafat had not suffered a hemorrhage or stroke.
"Arafat has no type of brain death," Kurdi told Al-Arabiya.
Anxious Palestinian leaders held an emergency meeting in the West Bank on Thursday. Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath said top officials were in touch with Arafat's hospital every 30 minutes to check on his condition.
"The Palestinian leadership is in constant meeting to follow up on the president's health," Shaath said from Ramallah, where leaders of the PLO and Arafat's Fatah (news - web sites) movement were meeting.
The PLO executive committee gave Qureia some of Arafat's financial powers so he could take care of urgent matters, committee member Qais Abdel Karim said.
A prolonged Arafat incapacitation — or death — could have profound impact on the Middle East. There are fears of unrest among Palestinian factions, which Arafat, viewed as a national symbol by even some who opposed him, was largely able to prevent. Furthermore, chaos in the West Bank and Gaza could make any cooperation with Israel even more difficult.
On the other hand, Israel and the United States have in recent years shunned Arafat as a terrorist and an obstacle to peace, and his replacement by a new leadership could open the door to renewed peace talks. Such a scenario could affect Israel's current plans to pull soldiers and settlers out of the Gaza Strip (news - web sites) in a unilateral move not coordinated with the Palestinians.
Former Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas told the committee that Qureia will head to the Gaza Strip on Friday to order security chiefs there to show solidarity and not fight during this difficult time, a Palestinian official said on condition of anonymity.
There is concern in Israel about the fallout from Arafat's death or incapacitation. The Israeli army, which is on high alert, has a plan, called "new leaf," to deal with the fallout from Arafat's death, including possible Palestinian riots.
The Israeli military had not yet moved forces to anticipated problem areas, but commanders were told to be on standby.
Israeli security officials were meeting Thursday to study the repercussions in the Middle East should Arafat die, Israeli officials said. Top officials, including Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and Army Chief Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, were to focus their weekly meeting on reports that Arafat's health took a sudden turn for the worse, the officials said.
Among Israel's plans are ways to prevent Arafat from being buried in Jerusalem. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) has said he would not permit Arafat to be buried in the city, claimed by both Israel and the Palestinians as their capital.
Army chiefs said they were opposed to Arafat's burial in Jerusalem or the nearby suburb of Abu Dis in the West Bank. Arafat's family has a plot in the Gaza Strip.
The confusion over Arafat's condition escalated after Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker told reporters at a summit of European leaders in Belgium that Arafat had died. He later retracted the statement.
"It was a misunderstanding," government spokesman Lucien Michels said.
After Juncker's initial statement, a spokesman for the military hospital where Arafat was rushed Friday said he was still alive.
"Mr. Arafat is not dead," said Christian Estripeau, head of communications for French military health services. "The clinical situation of the first few days following admission has become more complex."
Juncker's spokesman said the prime minister spoke after receiving a phone call while driving to the summit from a journalist, who relayed an Israeli television station report that Arafat had died.
Once inside the summit building, Juncker was corrected by French President Jacques Chirac, who visited Arafat in the hospital before leaving for Brussels.
"Chirac spoke to him and told him it was not so," spokesman Guy Schuller said.
Media reports also contributed to the speculation.
Israel's Channel Two cited a French Web site and Radio Monte Carlo as saying Arafat had either died or was clinically dead. The TV report was picked up by other stations, including Britain's Sky News.
In Washington, President Bush (news - web sites) was asked by a reporter for his reaction to reports that Arafat had died.
"My first reaction is God bless his soul," Bush said at the nationally televised news conference. "My second reaction is that we will continue to work for a free Palestinian state that's at peace with Israel."
Israel Radio reported that Mahmoud Abbas, No. 2 in the PLO hierarchy and a former prime minister, was on his way to Paris on Thursday.
Arafat was taken to intensive care after his condition worsened. Chirac went to the hospital Thursday and saw Arafat and his wife, "to whom he expressed his best wishes," Chirac's office said. The president also met members of the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) and doctors "who are doing everything possible for the health of the president," Chirac's office said.
French television station LCI quoted an anonymous French medical official as saying Arafat was in an "irreversible coma" and "intubated" — a process that usually involves threading a tube down the windpipe to the lungs. The tube is often connected to a life support machine to help the patient breathe.
Arafat was rushed to the Percy Military Training Hospital outside Paris for emergency treatment Friday. Since then, his condition has largely remained a mystery, with Palestinians issuing conflicting reports.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
lookit darknight plagerisin' hallmark cards!
And what are YOU gonna do about it? Whine to Hallmark about it?
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maybe i wil, and maybe i WILL!
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
maybe i wil, and maybe i WILL!
Bring 'em on!
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He is in France right now.
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Rue de Nocturne said:
He is in France right now.
France: The offramp to hell.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
I actually hope he's not dead.
If he's alive, he's sure to be in pain from whatever it is he's suffering from. The longer he lives, the longer he can suffer.
He'll be dead soon, if he isn't already, so let him go. There is already enough hatred and intolerance fueling the situation in the Middle East and it doesn't look good on you.
When Arafat dies there will be a window of opportunity. If we're clever and we have good Statesmen, there will be new chances for diplomacy. It's better to focus on this positive angle and not let your hatred of this one man poison you.
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
France: The offramp to hell.
France offered assistance to Arafat and it's the right and proper thing to do. There have been plenty of terrorist attacks linked with the PLO on European soil, but, in this situation, I think that it is the role of civilised nations to set a humanitarian precedent and not sink to the same level as less enlightened countries. If you behave with the same callous intent as your enemies, then you become like them in kind.
The other important thing to remember is that because Arafat has been allowed to go elsewhere in the world to receive medical treatment there are no grounds to regard him as a martyr. Had he been refused permission to leave his compound and then died there, it could have been a catalyst for yet more bloodshed.
I find this Francophobia hard to swallow. First of all, like all prejudice that stereotypes a country or a social group, it has its foundations in a kind of wilful ignorance. Furthermore this brand of uninformed hatred, when left unchecked, can build into something altogether nastier.
It's funny because, Just as I see growing paralels between America and the Islamic states that I've visited, America and France share many similarities as far as their attitude is concerned. Both are prepared to go their own way and follow courses of action that maybe unpopular with the rest of the world.
Last edited by backwards7; 2004-11-05 4:47 AM.
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Wow, I feel horrible. I mean I got all caught up in the fact that he's a dispicable terrorist killer, I never stopped to consider his feelings. Your post was quite eloquent. I just wish we could all be as open minded and tollerant as you. Quote:
backwards7
The BBC had this computer generated map of the U.S. as part of their coverage, and it was so depressing watching this great red stain spreading across the central American states while along either coastline there were these little bits of blue that looked as though they were on the verge of being pushed into the sea.
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Oh and the France thing... well, thats what we in the Deep Thoughts forum like to call a "joke".
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I sense sarcasm.
What I'm trying to communicate isn't just tolerance. It's common sense.
Surely you agree that, had Arafat been confined in his compound and denied quality medical aid, it would have only exacebated the tensions in the Middle East. His relocation in France is a diplomatic solution which gives terrorist organisations no excuse for retalliation if Arafat dies and will also give Europe some leverage in peace talks following his death.
Arafat did some bad things but now he's going to die and that's the end of it. As long as people keep opening old wounds from the past this situation will never be resolved.
Best to look to the future.
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I'm not worried about the past. I'm worried about getting a phone call or an e-mail that one of my realtives living on a kibbutz in Nir David, or one of my freinds studying in one of the yeshivas in Israel was murdered by a terrorist. And even though I don't let on, I worry about this almost every day. Because each and every one of them is considered to be a terrorist target.
And it's not just me - many of my fellow Jews are in the same situation. I know people who had friends and relatives killed by terrorists in Israel, and I've seen their pain and grief with my own eyes. We're a small people, and when one of us is killed because of who we are, it affects all of us.
I lost a lot of my family in the Holocaust to one pack of monsters. I don't want to lose any more to another pack. And it'll be different this time, because these will be people that I know very well and I am very close to.
Yasser Arafat is a terrorist - whatever diplomatic status he has now does not change that. I have no reason to believe he regrets his past or feels remorse for his victims and the victims of those he has inspired, or for the Palestinian people whose innocent bystanders are caught in the crossfire when Israelis hunt down real terrorists.
I hope and pray for peace and for the cycle of violence to end, and for there to be an Israeli and Palestinian state side by side if that's what it takes. But I can't feel anything but anger towards Arafat himself, after what he's done and inspired others to do, and for not taking stpes that could have prevented so many deaths on either side. He's brought pain and suffering to my people and his own, and I can't forgive him for that. Not yet, anyway.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2004-11-05 6:17 AM.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
I'm not worried about the past. I'm worried about getting a phone call or an e-mail that one of my realtives living on a kibbutz in Nir David, or one of my freinds studying in one of the yeshivas in Israel was murdered by a terrorist. And even though I don't let on, I worry about this almost every day. Because each and every one of them is considered to be a terrorist target.
And it's not just me - many of my fellow Jews are in the same situation. I know people who had friends and relatives killed by terrorists in Israel, and I've seen their pain and grief with my own eyes. We're a small people, and when one of us is killed because of who we are, it affects all of us.
I lost a lot of my family in the Holocaust to one pack of monsters. I don't want to lose any more to another pack. And it'll be different this time, because these will be people that I know very well and I am very close to.
Yasser Arafat is a terrorist - whatever diplomatic status he has now does not change that. I have no reason to believe he regrets his past or feels remorse for his victims and the victims of those he has inspired, or for the Palestinian people whose innocent bystanders are caught in the crossfire when Israelis hunt down real terrorists.
I hope and pray for peace and for the cycle of violence to end, and for there to be an Israeli and Palestinian state side by side if that's what it takes. But I can't feel anything but anger towards Arafat himself, after what he's done and inspired others to do, and for not taking stpes that could have prevented so many deaths on either side. He's brought pain and suffering to my people and his own, and I can't forgive him for that. Not yet, anyway.
Innocent people on both sides have cause to fear both for their own well being and those of their friends and families.
I appreciate that the Israeli / Palestinian situation is a lot closer to home for you than it is for myself, and I don't wish to cause you offence, but no one is wearing white hats in this conflict. There is terrorism on both sides - the shoe-string variety that the PLO and related groups deal in and the state sponsored kind meted out by Israeli forces.
I know what it's like hate someone to the point where you can vividly picture your hands around their throat but, unless you're prepared to act on that hatred, all you do is hurt yourself.
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backwards7 said:
I appreciate that the Israeli / Palestinian situation is a lot closer to home for you than it is for myself, and I don't wish to cause you offence, but no one is wearing white hats in this conflict.
Trust me - I'm aware of that. Just because I'm pissed at Arafat doesn't mean I approve of everything the Israelis do. As I said here (and have said several times before), I don't like to see innocents get caught in the crossfire. That's an absolute for me, no matter what conflict we're talking about or which side of it. I believe the guilty must be brought to justice and punished, but innocent bystanders should be spared whenever possible. But geting back to Arafat, he bears plenty of responsibility for what's going on in Israel, in terms of past actions he's taken and opportunities he's ignored or spurned, and I can't ignore that fact, or let him off the hook just because Israel goes overboard sometimes.
Quote:
There is terrorism on both sides - the shoe-string variety that the PLO and related groups deal in and the state sponsored kind meted out by Israeli forces.
I'll concede that Israel can be heavy-handed at times, but I can't call what they do terrorism. Look at it from Israel's point of view. What are they supposed to do about terrorists who strike at innocent civilians, sit back and let them keep killing?
Many terrorist groups such as Hamas do not want peace with Israel - they don't want a Jewish state of Israel to exist at all. They say so loud and clear. That is the objective they're fighting for. What is Israel supposed to do against an enemy with that kind of ideaology besides just letting it happen?
At least Israel doesn't deliberately murder civilians the way terrorists do. It's terrible when innocents get caught in the crossfire, but it's much worse when civilians are deliberately targeted.
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I was thinking about the differences between the way the Israeli and the Palestinian forces engage one another.
Historically when a small army is faced with overwhelming odds they adopt guerilla tactics. Israel is a wealthy country that gets collosal amounts of money from abroad, making it possible to maintain a large, well equiped army. The Palestinians can't possibly fight Israel on equal terms so as a result you get these terrorist groups springing up. Obviously that's a simplification and it's not a justification, but it must be a factor.
One thing I'd like your opinion on:
During the Northern Ireland Peace Process we had this situation where some of the people who were involved in terrorism came in from the cold and are now 'respectable' politicians. This means that they're willing to pursue their aims peacefully through the legitimate channels of Government.
For a lot of people that was hard to stomach because, even though these individuals fronted the political wings of terrorist groups and so weren't directly involved in the violence, clearly they had some association with the cells that were going around blowing people up.
On the other hand, it was necessary because you couldn't have a credible peace process that didn't involve dialogue with representatives of these terrorist organisations.
It was a tricky process, because it was an attempt at breaking a cycle of violence which had a lot of momentum. Fortunately it does appear to be working and the longer there is peace in Northern Ireland the harder it will be to go back.
So, hypothetically, taking Northern Ireland as a model, would you be prepared to accept figures from Hamas and the PLO as Palestinian leaders and representatives if these groups were willing to commit to a long-term ceasefire and eventually disarm, with the aim of forging a diplomatic solution? Or is wiping the slate clean in that way an anathema?
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Quote:
backwards7 said:
So, hypothetically, taking Northern Ireland as a model, would you be prepared to accept figures from Hamas and the PLO as Palestinian leaders and representatives if these groups were willing to commit to a long-term ceasefire and eventually disarm, with the aim of forging a diplomatic solution? Or is wiping the slate clean in that way an anathema?
If Hamas and PLO leaders proved to be 100%, absolutely, sincerely willing to renounce terror and violence, and were they to disarm and even crack down on their comrades who would not stop the fighting...I'd have to say yes, I could accept them. But they'd REALLY have to prove they meant it by practicing what they preach (which isn't unreasonable).
Arafat has not proven himself able or willing to do that, which is why I can't accept him.
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funny, not many people see Arafat as a terrorist. He's seen as an old annoying bugger who won't cede power to ANYone. He's also seen as the man partially responsible for preventing a full-scale war!
Yes, Hamas are terrorists, and they are supposed to be under Arafats control. But if you can recall several articles from a few years back, they have withdrawn their support from him and now fight their own wars.
And if Arafat is a terrorist, why does he condemn terrorists attacks, and orders his security forces to kill said terrorists on sight?
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I don't support the actions of the terrorists anymore than I would support the brutal actions of the Israeli army, who whether by accident or intent have killed a great many innocent civilians.
I do have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian cause. The land Israel has occupied legally belongs to the Palestinians and a terrible desparation must take hold when a bigger country moves in and what it wants by force while treating the indigenous people like animals.
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Quote:
backwards7 said:
I don't support the actions of the terrorists anymore than I would support the brutal actions of the Israeli army, who whether by accident or intent have killed a great many innocent civilians.
I do have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian cause. The land Israel has occupied legally belongs to the Palestinians and a terrible desparation must take hold when a bigger country moves in and what it wants by force while treating the indigenous people like animals.
Second!
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Prior to Israel taking thier land from them, when was the Nation of Palestine founded?
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There was never a nation of Palestine.
When the Romans destroyed the second Temple and ended the second Israeli kingdom, throwing the Jews out of Judea and Sumaria (that's the West Bank), the land they (we) had lived in for thousands of years, they renamed the whole place Palestine. The thought was that if they erased the name "Israel," and replaced it with the name "Palestine," the Jews would give up and stop fighting for autonomy.
When the Jewish people began returning to the land in force in the early 20th century, the Arabs didn't call the settlers Israelis. They called the Jewish settlers Palestinians. So, in fact, the first Palestinians were Jews. When the Jewish people demanded Britain leave them (us) alone in their (our) land, it was decided that Israel (which is what the Jews were rightfully calling the land) would be split into the Jewish state of Israel, and the Arab state of Palestine.
Then what happened? The Jewish state survived wars and thrived as a nation and a culture, and the Arab occupied land stayed as it was since the Romans destroyed it. Then, in the Six Day War, Israel took back the land in part. Going back to old maps, Jordan is actually part of Israel too. But, since the tribes who lived their are missing, they aren't around to demand their land back.
Anyway, there never was an ancient state of Palestine. There was only Israel.
As for terminology:
Freedom fighters attack military targets.
Terrorists attack civilian targets.
There are no Arab "freedom fighters" in Israel. Most attacks are against civilians in coffee shops, resturaunts, hotels, wedding ceremonies, etc. Just because the same groups sometimes target military personnel, that does not make them freedom fighters.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
There was never a nation of Palestine.
Bingo! you win a cookie.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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I'd much rather find out which plot of land in Israel is my family's inheritance. 
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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CNN is reporting that Arafat is on life support while officials and family members decide where he is to be buried. Islamic custom holds that burial is to be within 24 hours after death, but a site has not yet been found. Israeli PM Sharon has refused Arafat's request for a burial in Jerusalem, citing Jerusalem as the "burial ground for Jewish kings, not Arab terrorists."
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-11-05 8:51 PM.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
I'd much rather find out which plot of land in Israel is my family's inheritance.
well, you get a cookie 
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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fudge 4000+ posts
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wannabuyamonkey said:
thier
you're a nice guy, I like you, but...
that spelling error has to go!
"their"
Racks be to MisterJLA
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Penwing, can I have your cookie if you don't want it?
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Penwing, can I have your cookie if you don't want it?
It's yours.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Chant said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
thier
you're a nice guy, I like you, but...
that spelling error has to go!
"their"
SecondED!
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Joined: Nov 2000
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2000+ posts
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
CNN is reporting that Arafat is on life support while officials and family members decide where he is to be buried. Islamic custom holds that burial is to be within 24 hours after death, but a site has not yet been found. Israeli PM Sharon has refused Arafat's request for a burial in Jerusalem, citing Jerusalem as the "burial ground for Jewish kings, not Arab terrorists."
I think Israel allowing Arafat to be burried in Jerusalem would be a good show of faith towards towards the Palastinians to have the violence stopped. Sharon isn't going to stop the terrorism.
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