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I've heard the name come up a few times, usually followed by complaints about what he's doing to Batman's Rogues Gallery (and something about Prometheus) in the pages of Gotham Knights, which I don't read. Can anyone give me details? (Don't worry about spoilers.)
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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plllllllllllltttttttttttttttttttttttt....one of the staple of shitty dc writers???
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I read here at Rob's Flippin' Message Boards that he turned Prometheus into a gun crazy, one-dimensional character.
He also gave away The Joker's origin, which was ambigous for as long as I can remember.
Finally, he turned the aftermath of "Hush" into an indecipherable mess.
In other words, he will have a long reign as a Batman writer.
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I heard winick helped though...
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:Finally, he turned the aftermath of "Hush" into an indecipherable mess.
So he kept in the spirit of Hush?
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Pig Iron said:
I heard winick helped though...
I wouldn't doubt it.
My Batman zombie days are over, so I'm going by what I've read here.
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dick, we hate you..fuck off..
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:Finally, he turned the aftermath of "Hush" into an indecipherable mess.
So he kept in the spirit of Hush?
Yes
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Quote:
Pig Iron said:
I heard winick helped though...
Indeed he did.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
I've heard the name come up a few times, usually followed by complaints about what he's doing to Batman's Rogues Gallery (and something about Prometheus) in the pages of Gotham Knights, which I don't read. Can anyone give me details? (Don't worry about spoilers.)
Call yourself a Batfan and don't read all the shit - shame on you!
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
I shit on Hogan!
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The Bat-villains have been treated poorly lately. Lieberman The Joker: Gave a definitive origin and had beaten by Hush. Poison Ivy: About to depower or kill her. Riddler: Had him reverted back to a B-list villain and beaten by Hush. Winick The Joker: Had beaten by a new Red Hood. Scarecrow: Turned him into an actual beast. Rucka Ra's al Ghul: Killed him. Loeb Two-Face: Cured him and put him into comic book limbo. Now we have a new face for the Rogues Gallery: 
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed, and blew it out. - Joker
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It merely sounds as if he shook up the status quo.
Which is a good thing.
And when has the Riddler been "A" class?
A guy who commits petty crime and bothers to leave clues as to how to catch him, isn't exactly the stuff of great drama.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
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I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
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To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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He became A-class after Hush.
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Agreed. A lot of potential now just flushed down the drain. Pity...
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
It merely sounds as if he shook up the status quo.
Which is a good thing.
Bad ideas that "shake up the status quo" aren't a good things.
Good ideas that "shake up the status quo", however, are good things.
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Quote:
Carnyfoke said:
The Bat-villains have been treated poorly lately.
Lieberman
The Joker: Gave a definitive origin and had beaten by Hush.
What was the origin he came up with?
Quote:
Riddler: Had him reverted back to a B-list villain and beaten by Hush.
How was he reverted to B-villain?
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Rucka
Ra's al Ghul: Killed him.
When and how?
Not that I'd put too much stock in it - al Ghul's been killed off before (Batman #335, Detective #490, Batman #400, possibly others)
BTW, what's Lieberman's background that earned him enough clout to get to re-write Batman's Rogues?
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-04-18 3:26 AM.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
What was the origin he came up with?
Some guy killed his family and he went insane.....That's it. Completely ignorant of Killing Joke's set [continuity/overall point for Joker's character].
Quote:
How was he reverted to B-villain?
Leiberman has essentially wrote him out as a weakling through and through. Not at all smart. Just a backseat rogue that moves on strings twisted by other characters.
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When and how?
In Death and the Maidens he replaced Re's Al Ghul with his "other daughter". She killed him and had his ashes burned and then--This is the worst part--Caused Talia to loathe Batman (after she put her in the Laz Pit.
Leiberman doesn't have a background, he's just some writer. Seriously, nuthin' to it.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
In that case, I oughtta be able to get to write "Batman." I'd undo all the damage this yutz has done. I'd find a way somehow - writing off Joker's origin as just another imaginary version of The Joker's past (in "Killing Joke," doesn't he say that he remembers his past one way, and then another? Implying that the origin in "Killing Joke" might be one of several origins he remembers for himself?)
Precisely.
I don't see things as too far gone. Stuff can still be saved.
Joker's psyche can get a new revelation that corrects his current one, confirming it wasn't his real past. And with that, Riddler could say he lied and was merely scheming everyone.
Talia could just be faking it so she can disillusion her sister, save her father, plus she'd still love Batman.
Two Face can mutilate his own face.(don't ask)
Hell, even Harley can be fixed after her junked her book so badly.
This isn't to say that I dislike all forms of change, but these particular ones are jerk-stupid awful.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Two Face can mutilate his own face.(don't ask)
I actually always liked the Two-Face character from Dark Knight Returns - a.k.a. Face - largely because all his scars were completely internal. It made him a much more intruiguing character in my mind...
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I share that setiment, but I'm just saying that without the conflict of interest going on inside of Harvey, he's lost his coolness factor. Now (provided they actually incorporate Miller's idea), he's just a crime boss, a thug. Rather one note if you ask me. I'm thinkin', as a story idea, that his conscience is able to break through eventually and try to take control again. The most effective way to do that would be to create a type of symbolic juncture through his previous physical affliction; he takes a knife or acid to his face and perhaps succeeds in restoring half and half but doesn't get to finish ruining his face.
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Does anyone remember that really good "noir" story that Dini and Timm did in one of the "Black and White" books in which Harvey was cured and started dating a woman with a psychotic twin sister?
THAT was how you write Two-face.
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I agree. He should date. They should de-gay Montoya and have him ask her out.
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i really liked all the things loeb did to shake up the status quo. the HUSH storyline itself may have been presented like a "villain of the month" brochure, however, so many cool new possibilities were laid out.
a healed two-face, an empowered riddler, various rogues wars (riddler / ra's, hush / two-face, etc), a seemingly amped up ivy, the introduction of "hush," the better rebirth of jason todd, etc, etc.
all great possibilities.
ruined, only months later, in a dreadful sequence of gotham knights issues.
the joker was awful. he was whiney and not funny and not even really crazy. prometheus was a hitman, and a poor one. hush was awful, and still had issues with bandages (saw darkman. not good then.) ...batman was pathetic. green arrow (ollie) was the better fighter and better detective of the two.
its like every page introduced new, awful crap. i couldn't believe an editor would accept one of these stories, let alone a series of half a dozen, or so.
it was really, really bad.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I agree. He should date. They should de-gay Montoya and have him ask her out.
She's gay now? Didn't she lose a boyfriend to the plague during "Contagion"?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Two Face can mutilate his own face.(don't ask)
Wasn't there already a Batman annual where Two-Face gets plastic surgery and rescars his own face?
I wouldn't put it past Two-Face to re-mutilate his face.
Quote:
This isn't to say that I dislike all forms of change, but these particular ones are jerk-stupid awful.
Agreed.
This isn't the first time you and I have agreed on stuff, but it's still disturbing every time it happens. 
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Wasn't there already a Batman annual where Two-Face gets plastic surgery and rescars his own face?
Really? Got an issue number?
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
She's gay now? Didn't she lose a boyfriend to the plague during "Contagion"?
Indeed she did, but Rucka decided to ignore the fact that she was going to spend her life with a man and titled her as "always gay" to get his storyline through the door.
Fuckin' editors.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
it was really, really bad.
Rob, you're being very negative don't you think?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Indeed she did, but Rucka decided to ignore the fact that she was going to spend her life with a man and titled her as "always gay" to get his storyline through the door.
Fuckin' editors.
Your sexual preference doesn't preclude falling in love with someone. It's just not quite the same. I've had serious girlfriends in the past that I've had every intention of one day taking to the alter. And with women, i've noticed that there are relatively few 'true' lesbians. They tend, more often than not, to oscilate between men and women.
The whole character developement for Montoya was believable, although I'll agree poorly executed. Franlkly though, I don't think anyone wants to read a tremendous exposition on why she's made her choices in a Batman comic. A bit character is just there for scenery, and cannon fodder should the need for a tragic death in a cross over 'event' ever arise.
FYI.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Your sexual preference doesn't preclude falling in love with someone. It's just not quite the same. I've had serious girlfriends in the past that I've had every intention of one day taking to the alter. And with women, i've noticed that there are relatively few 'true' lesbians. They tend, more often than not, to oscilate between men and women.
My disagreements with the homosexual opinions on physical attraction aside, that's not Rucka's lip-serivice. His tune is that she's been living a lie all her life and keeping her gayness a secret. I truly doubt she'd go for a life of unhappiness in an straight marriage to keep that secret considering the independence of her personality. She prolly would have stayed alone. She loved Johnny romantically. There's not doubt about that. Rucka's just being a PC prick, media-whoring out to GLAAD like Brubaker.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
She loved Johnny romantically. There's not doubt about that.
I never said anything to contradict that fact, niether did Rucka. I mean you're free not to like it and all for artistic merit. I was just pointing out that the scenario is a very realistic one that happens to people all the time.
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So you're saying she tricked herself into being attracted to Johnny's body? 
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Quote:
Pariah said:
So you're saying she tricked herself into being attracted to Johnny's body?
Being attracted to someone physically and loving someone are not always the same thing. When you are in the closet and unwilling or unable to come out you can overlook physical satisfaction. I don't expect you to understand, given your narrow life view and limited realm of experience. I am merely stating that it is reality for many people.
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Okay, now you're just spewing ad hominem to make your case seem more valid. Nothing you say about your self-proclaimed monopoly in understanding physical attraction will suddenly overlook Rucka's intent to characterize Montoya's awareness of being in the closet. At which point, her character wouldn't suggest she'd trap herself in a marriage that she'd hate. Going over the severity of physical attraction and then saying it can easily be thrown in the backseat sounds so cheap especially with an 'I-don't-expect-you-to-understand-it' tune. Being human, I understand emotion well enough. Please don't imply otherwise simply cuz' you're gay and I'm not.
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Whatever Pariah. I am sick of this shit with you. If you don't buy it, fine. I'm telling you the story rang true for me...that's it. I'm not debating this with you. It was just an attempt to help you see the reality behind the situation. I really don't care about your personal opinions on the issue.
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