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MEM--
G-man is about as interested in the truth as you are.
Theo
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-11-17 11:40 AM.
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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I don't think Bush lied, I've actually seen an interview with where he's asked how he felt when they couldn't find any WMD's.
He said he was disapointed and that he had actually been convinced there were WMD's
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Quote:
Chant said:
I don't think Bush lied, I've actually seen an interview with where he's asked how he felt when they couldn't find any WMD's.
He said he was disapointed and that he had actually been convinced there were WMD's
your point is that the President isn't a liar, just naive and easily convinced?
I think it was Richard Clarke who said that Bush wasn't really a reader. He likes his briefings to be short verbal summaries of the intel. In contrast was Clinton who liked to read all the material he could get his hands on and be on the same level with whoever was briefing him.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
your point is that the President isn't a liar, just naive and easily convinced?
What point? where am I making any points?
Quote:
I think it was Richard Clarke who said that Bush wasn't really a reader. He likes his briefings to be short verbal summaries of the intel. In contrast was Clinton who liked to read all the material he could get his hands on and be on the same level with whoever was briefing him.
To each his own I guess.
I think we all know the general opinion on the differences between Billy and Junior.
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Quote:
theory9 said:
MEM--
G-man is about as interested in the truth as you are.
Theo
I don't agree. For as much argueing that I do with G-man I still think he's a good guy very much interested in the truth.
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Quote:
Chant said:
I don't think Bush lied, I've actually seen an interview with where he's asked how he felt when they couldn't find any WMD's.
He said he was disapointed and that he had actually been convinced there were WMD's
I'm sure he did think there were WMD's, but the question is, was he honest in making the case that Saddam had them?
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Quote:
theory9 said:
MEM--
G-man is about as interested in the truth as you are.
Theo
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I don't agree. For as much argueing that I do with G-man I still think he's a good guy very much interested in the truth.
Back at you, MEM.
In fact, if anything, I'd argue that the its only by having people who are passionately committed to their beliefs putting forth the views, and challenging the equally passionate views of the opposite side, are we most likely to arrive at "the truth" of any matter.
I'd also respectfully submit that the people least likely to find, or even be interested in, the truth are the ones who sit on the sidelines, steadfastly maintaining the lie of neutrality while doing nothing but throwing potshots at the people who actually care enough to defend their position.
Not that I'm addressing anyone HERE with that last point or anything. 
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Quote:
Chant said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
your point is that the President isn't a liar, just naive and easily convinced?
What point? where am I making any points?
Never have, never will.
Quote:
Chant said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I think it was Richard Clarke who said that Bush wasn't really a reader. He likes his briefings to be short verbal summaries of the intel. In contrast was Clinton who liked to read all the material he could get his hands on and be on the same level with whoever was briefing him.
To each his own I guess.
I think we all know the general opinion on the differences between Billy and Junior.
What differrences are you refering to?
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Blindly following dogma never fixed any problems anywhere. And I am addressing you.
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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Not let this thread get wildly off topic here, however...
I've seen posters on both sides of the aisle break ranks with the "dogma" on a regular basis.
For example, Jim Jackson made some "conservative" points on the "Paris is Burning" thread today. On my end, while I make no apologies for being squarely on the right, I've also stated on more than one occasion where I part ways with Bush (Border Security, support of the Saudis, for example) and even a few times where I've said I thought Clinton's heart was in the right place (most recently on his 1995 Cuban visa policy).
On the other hand, I've seen a certain group of so-called "independents" who seem so eager to express that "independence" that they end up with, essentially, their own dogma of "bah, both sides suck", that they stick to with equal, if not more, dedication.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
On the other hand, I've seen a certain group of so-called "independents" who seem so eager to express that "independence" that they end up with, essentially, their own dogma of "bah, both sides suck", that they stick to with equal, if not more, dedication.
As opposed to the extremist crowd, who are unable to think for themselves and have to resort to insulting the "independents" or making alt ids to attack them.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Thank you for illustrating my point with your mere presence.
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Shouldn't you be checking foxnews.com to see what they think about it?
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Never have, never will.
oh HA HA 
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Thank you for illustrating my point with your mere presence.
Whew! I thought he was talking about me until reax showed up. I was surprised - nobody else was buying my neutral stance! 
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...I thought he was talkin' bout love! 
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
...
Whew! I thought he was talking about me until reax showed up. I was surprised - nobody else was buying my neutral stance!
Where you trying for a neutral stance? I know that sounds smartassy but I honestly thought you were openly conservative leaning.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
In fact, if anything, I'd argue that the its only by having people who are passionately committed to their beliefs putting forth the views, and challenging the equally passionate views of the opposite side, are we most likely to arrive at "the truth" of any matter.
I'd also respectfully submit that the people least likely to find, or even be interested in, the truth are the ones who sit on the sidelines, steadfastly maintaining the lie of neutrality while doing nothing but throwing potshots at the people who actually care enough to defend their position.
Not that I'm addressing anyone HERE with that last point or anything.
With all due respect, as an independent, I don't find your generalization of independents to be that respectful.
First of all, your comments mischaracterize the intentions of moderates and independents. Independents do more than take pot-shots at both sides, although we certainly do plenty of that. I personally do it to show both sides the futility of engaging in what I see as childish smear campaigns, which I see as a distraction from honest debate, since neither side can claim a monopoly on righteousness. It doesn't always come across that way, I'll admit that, but those are my intentions.
But anyways, some of the independets around here do offer non-pot-shot opinions that we do feel quite strongly about. From what I've seen, they just don't get noticed as much because they don't shock or offend. I think some of the folks around here get all caught up in the inflammatory flame wars and trolling that they ignore the non-troll input.
And besides, as I've often said, being an independent or a moderate doesn't mean you don't take sides. It just determines the reasons you choose to take a side on a certain issue. My stands on certain issues are based on listening to actual debates on the issues, listening to what both sides have to say, and then I choose which one makes the most sense to me. Often that requires standing for or against a certain point of view - and I have changed my views on certain issues. So there's no "lie of neutrality," because being independent doesn't necessarily mean that you're neutral. It just means you're free to listen to what both sides have to offer, and not that you're bound to one particular ideaology that you will never betray.
And we do care about the positions we choose to debate on. But talking to some of the people around here is like talking to a brick wall sometimes. No matter what is said or how accurate it is, some people just seem to brush it off for one reason or another without even seeming to conisder it. Why should we waste our energy in deabte with people who aren't going to listen? It's not always lack of conviction - just lack of confidence that we'll get a real debate about the issues, and an unwillingness to waste time that could be put to a more productive manner.
(See? Here's an independent standing up for what he believes in, without taking a single pot-shot.)
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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I wasn't referring to all independents. I was referring to the ones who act the way I described.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I wasn't referring to all independents. I was referring to the ones who act the way I described.
The way you worded your post (and I re-read it carefully before posting, just to make sure), it honestly read like you were describing all independents.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
...
Whew! I thought he was talking about me until reax showed up. I was surprised - nobody else was buying my neutral stance!
Where you trying for a neutral stance? I know that sounds smartassy but I honestly thought you were openly conservative leaning.
Try moderate with conservative leanings. I'm split almost evenly on a number of issues.
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why is it when i make a post it gets split off into its own thread, yet this thread has become about poster's indie cred?
is it possible that g-man didn't move these posts because he's able to respond to them?
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I wanted to see how far the "indie v liberal v conservative" thing went first. If it only lasted a few posts I wasn't going to move anything.
But since you want it to be a separate thread Ray, here you go.
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So you like to "concentrate" things that you don't like into little "ghetto" threads?
Maybe then you can get those threads on a mod train to some sort of camp.
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Good topic. Moderates get no love. Do they deserve any?
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Nope. The country's in such great shape right now that there's no need for moderates!
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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Quote:
theory9 said:
Nope. The country's in such great shape right now that there's no need for moderates!
You must be one of those conservative mods 
Well, there is no way I could be a moderate in general. Some issues I'm in the middle or even switch sides but it's way to rare. I can't help it.
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I wasn't sure if this deserved its own thread or not, so I decided to post it here. http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/clinton...HNlYwN5bmNhdA--Quote:
Clinton calls for kinder, gentler political talk
Under a long glass case here at the Clinton Presidential Library, a carefully crayoned drawing shows five gunslingers in cowboy hats facing off under a giant orange sun. It's a scene from High Noon, the label says, a favorite movie of 6-year-old "Billy" Clinton.
Now pushing 60, the artist, former president Bill Clinton, says he's lost his taste for showdowns.
In Washington last week, the congressional debate about Iraq and spending priorities took a turn for the vitriolic. But Clinton, who made the term "war room" part of the political lexicon, wasn't plotting a counterattack. Back in Arkansas, the state that launched his political career, to celebrate the first anniversary of his presidential library, Clinton argued for a cease-fire.
"I think it's a healthy thing in a democracy to have people disagreeing, but if you're screaming or demonizing, then the very people you want to reach - which is those who don't agree with you - can't hear you," he said.
As president, Clinton was a polarizing politician. As the husband of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, whom most polls rate a leading contender for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, he's at the eye of an intense storm of political speculation.
But nearly five years after leaving office, Clinton insists he prefers to be the Great Conciliator: "I'm in a different place than I used to be."
In a 50-minute interview with USA TODAY, Clinton talked warmly about former president George H.W. Bush, the man he ousted from the White House; said he goes "out of my way" to find areas of agreement with the current President Bush; and argued for the need to find ways to transcend the nation's political divide.
"Sooner or later you figure out that pragmatism and compromise are principles in a democracy. It's not selling out your convictions," Clinton said.
Clinton and former president Bush are preparing to announce soon the co-chairs of a joint foundation to distribute the more than $100 million they have raised for victims of Hurricane Katrina.
The plan, as Clinton outlined it in a speech to the Little Rock Rotary Club, sounds like a version of the elder Bush's "Thousand Points of Light." They plan to fund community and church groups helping people "who fall between the cracks" of government programs. He's enthusiastic about the partnership.
"He's just a wonderful guy. Plus, he's fun to be around," said Clinton, who confessed that Bush beat him in a recent round of golf. "I've reached a point in life where the fact that I've had my differences with him or even more stark differences with his son, who's more conservative than he is, doesn't bother me. I can still like and appreciate them."
Clinton doesn't hide his disagreements with the current president over Iraq and economic policies.
"I practically need a rabies shot when I talk about this deficit and me getting five tax cuts while we had two wars going on," he said.
Even so, he said that they have established "a good relationship" and that Bush has asked him to work on "little foreign policy things" that Clinton won't detail.
Clinton maintains a quasi-presidential lifestyle. The Clinton Foundation had a budget of $12 million last year. Spokesman Jay Carson says Clinton raised an additional $15 million for his crusade to expand treatment for AIDS and HIV victims in developing countries.
Clinton's staff of 60, working in New York and Little Rock, includes a chief of staff and foreign and domestic policy advisers. They work on causes ranging from economic development in Harlem to promoting research on breast cancer to battling poor eating habits.
Despite his recent heart surgery, Clinton travels the globe regularly. Back home, he faces humbling reminders that he's out of office.
Returning to his Chappaqua, N.Y. house last week after a 19-hour flight from the Middle East, he had to wait up for repairmen. "We're having to put in a new septic field, and I lost my heat," he said.
Clinton said he returns to Little Rock once a month or so to "check in on the library." He also looks in on 16 charter students in the Clinton School of Public Service, a master's degree program that he began with the University of Arkansas.
The library is a point of pride with Clinton. It has sparked $1 billion worth of development in a once-seedy neighborhood, according to the Clinton Foundation, and has been certified by the U.S. Green Building Council.
Displays include references to Clinton's impeachment on charges of lying about his affair with former intern Monica Lewinsky.
And there are indications that Clinton has a sense of humor about his public image. In one exhibit area, a display on music at the White House includes a folk art painting titled Elvis Introducing a Bill To Congress that depicts Clinton and Elvis Presley on stage in a frame decorated with soft drink bottle caps and faux French fries.
Clinton said he hopes visitors, "whether they are conservative or liberal or Democrat or Republican" leave feeling "more like being involved in the political process."
The former president does. After deliberately staying out of his wife's first Senate campaign in 2000, he's eager to campaign in 2006 when she runs for re-election. Clinton said he'd like to help the senator in rural Upstate New York, where, he joked "to be able to drag out a weather-beaten old redneck like me is an enormous asset."
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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