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A big story on the Sunday shows this morning was Bush authorizing the NSA to wiretap Americans without going through a court. Sounds unconstitutional to me. Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Democratic House leaders called Sunday for an independent panel to investigate the legality of a program President Bush authorized that allows warrantless wiretaps on U.S. citizens, according to a letter to House Speaker Dennis Hastert.
"We believe that the President must have the best possible intelligence to protect the American people, but that intelligence must be produced in a manner consistent with our Constitution and our laws, and in a manner that reflects our values as a nation," the letter says.
...
CNN
Fair play!
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No you misunderstood. He's the king.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Uschi said:
No you misunderstood. He's the king.
He's not Elvis!
Fair play!
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I'm not so sure about the details, but I heard that once you're flagged, they monitor your activities (phone, purchases, online, etc.) for at least two years...
I'm VERY sure this place is being monitored by no less than 2, 3 HUNDRED NSA agents.
He fixes the cable?
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So THOSE are all the anonymous users and Guests?!?
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He fixes the cable?
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Everything was perfectly legal and has saved a good number of servicement and civilians thier lives.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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servicement?
is that like an after dinner mint but textured like a mento?
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
TK-069 said:
I'm VERY sure this place is being monitored by no less than 2, 3 HUNDRED NSA agents.
No, just one. I wish I had more backup but, hey.
Oh, sh-t. I think I just blew my cover.
Damn.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Everything was perfectly legal...
What he's doing now isn't legal. He should be investigated.
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But, seriously... To read the Times article, one might get the impression that any and all Americans are subject to a warrantless search. That is not the case, as Times itself stated a few days ago: Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. Only those people thought to be communicating and collaborating with al Qaeda terrorists overseas were subject to surveillance. In other words, this was a narrowly-tailored executive order targeting just a few hundred or few thousand terrorist-linked email addresses and phone numbers, not general surveillance of all citizen communications in a nation of 295 million. In addition, while it should be noted that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) requires a court order to seek surveillance on suspected terrorists or spies, there is legal precedent from 2000 entitled U.S vs. bin Laden that says in part: “Circuit courts applying (FISA law] to the foreign intelligence context have affirmed the existence of a foreign intelligence exception to the warrant requirement for searches conducted within the United States that target foreign powers or their agents.” While I haven't researched this area extensively (it doesn't come up much in traffic court) , it would seem to me that this demonstrates that U.S. courts have an established judicial precedent for bypassing FISA in certain circumstances - the circumstances that two Attorney Generals, Justice Department lawyers and White House Counsel all seem to affirm that President Bush was within his constitutional authority in addressing with his executive order to the NSA. Other useful bits of information the Times crack reporters seem to have trouble finding—or at least reporting—were Executive Order 12333 issued while Ronald Reagan was in office, stipulations of FISA itself, and the President's constitutional authority, as noted here:
Overlooked in most of the commentary on the New York Times article is the simple, undeniable fact that the president has the power to conduct warantless surveillance of foreign powers conspiring to kill Americans or attack the government. The Fourth Amendment, which prohibits "unreasonable" searches and seizures has not been interpreted by the Supreme Court to restrict this inherent presidential power. The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (an introduction from a critic of the Act is here) cannot be read as a limit on a constitutional authority even if the Act purported to so limit that authority.Further, the instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country." That is from the 1972 decision in United States v. United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan et al, (407 U.S. 297) which is where the debate over the president's executive order ought to begin and end. The FISA statute can have no impact on a constitutional authority. Statutes cannot add to or detract from constitutional authority.
In short, it would appear that there was an arguable legal basis from which the authority was drawn. It's a shame that honest reporting, or for that matter, the safety of the American people, are of little apparent concern for the reporters and the leakers.
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Bush Defends Domestic SpyingBush said "absolutely" he has the legal authority to order such surveillance, and cited Article 2 of the Constitution, which he said gives him the responsibility and authority to deal with an enemy that declares war against the United States. After the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, Congress also gave him the authority to use force against Al Qaeda, he noted, to tackle an "unconventional enemy," some of whom lived in U.S. cities and communities while planning attacks.
"We need to recognize that dealing with Al Qaeda is not simply a matter of law enforcement. It requires dealing with an enemy that declared war against the United States of America," Bush said.
"After Sept. 11, one question my administration had to answer was, how, using the authority I have, how do we effectively detect enemies hiding in our midst and prevent them from striking them again? We know that a two-minute phone conversation from someone linked to Al Qaeda here and to Al Qaeda overseas can cost millions of American lives," he added, saying some of the Sept. 11 hijackers made several phone calls overseas before the attacks.
He said the Sept. 11 commission — charged with probing the intelligence failures surrounding the attacks four years ago that left 3,000 people dead — said the United States intelligence community needs to better "connect the dots" before the enemy can attack again.
"So, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, I authorized the interception of communication with people with known links to Al Qaeda and people linked to known terror organizations," Bush said, adding that he has reauthorized the program more than 30 times "and I will continue to do so for so long as our nation faces the continued threat of an enemy that wants to kill our American citizens".
The program is reviewed "constantly" to ensure it is effective and not infringing on Americans' civil liberties, the president added. He also said congressional leaders have been briefed on the program more than a dozen times
He stressed that the program is limited to known Al Qaeda terrorists and for calls made from the United States to somewhere overseas, and vice versa. Calls between two U.S. cities are not monitored, he said
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Monday that the NSA program had yielded intelligence results that would not have been available otherwise in the War on Terror.
He stressed that it is not a blanket spying program of ordinary Americans but of overseas communications of potential Al Qaeda suspects in the United States.
"This is not a situation of domestic spying," the attorney general said.
"Our position is that the authorization to use military force which was passed by the Congress shortly after Sept. 11 constitutes that authority," Gonzales continued. It "does give permission for the president of the United States to engage in this kind of very limited, targeted electronic surveillance against our enemy."
Gen. Michael Hayden, the deputy national intelligence director who was head of the NSA when the program began, said, "I can say unequivocally we have got information through this program that would not otherwise have been available."
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Everything was perfectly legal...
What he's doing now isn't legal. He should be investigated.
Really? What is he doing that illegal, exactly?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Everything was perfectly legal...
What he's doing now isn't legal. He should be investigated.
Really? What is he doing that illegal, exactly?
From what I've read Bush is skipping using a Judge to approve his wiretapping. And I haven't seen a good reason for him not using the FISA law that would allow him to wiretap first & then get a judge to OK it after. The fact that his lawyers (that he picks) thinks it's OK doesn't make it Constitutional.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Everything was perfectly legal...
What he's doing now isn't legal. He should be investigated.
Really? What is he doing that illegal, exactly?
From what I've read Bush is skipping using a Judge to approve his wiretapping. And I haven't seen a good reason for him not using the FISA law that would allow him to wiretap first & then get a judge to OK it after. The fact that his lawyers (that he picks) thinks it's OK doesn't make it Constitutional.
So he's breaking the law because you don't see any reason for him doing what he did? If you acctually read the article that was released in the NY times and bypass the sensational headline you'll note that even they concede that he did nothing illegal AND the same article points out several plots that were fioled as a result of the strategy. Also the reason teh Bush admin asked them to delay the story was because the strategy was working asnd the teh longer they could keep that information from teh terrorists the more effective it would be, but in the end we goota do what's right, because people got books that need sellin'.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
From what I've read Bush is skipping using a Judge to approve his wiretapping. And I haven't seen a good reason for him not using the FISA law that would allow him to wiretap first & then get a judge to OK it after. The fact that his lawyers (that he picks) thinks it's OK doesn't make it Constitutional.
As noted above, U.S vs. bin Laden says in part that “Circuit courts applying (FISA law] to the foreign intelligence context have affirmed the existence of a foreign intelligence exception to the warrant requirement for searches conducted within the United States that target foreign powers or their agents.”
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
From what I've read Bush is skipping using a Judge to approve his wiretapping. And I haven't seen a good reason for him not using the FISA law that would allow him to wiretap first & then get a judge to OK it after. The fact that his lawyers (that he picks) thinks it's OK doesn't make it Constitutional.
As noted above, U.S vs. bin Laden says in part that “Circuit courts applying (FISA law] to the foreign intelligence context have affirmed the existence of a foreign intelligence exception to the warrant requirement for searches conducted within the United States that target foreign powers or their agents.”
And I'm sure the inevitable investigation to come will take that into consideration. (if it's accurate I would say he's home free)
Fair play!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
The program is reviewed "constantly" to ensure it is effective and not infringing on Americans' civil liberties, the president added. He also said congressional leaders have been briefed on the program more than a dozen times..
Who watches the Watchmen?
That the President asserts that it's not infringing on civil liberties leaves me cold.
Please, citizens, ignore the man behind the curtain...
We all wear a green carnation.
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http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm
Quote:
Agents' visit chills UMass Dartmouth senior
By AARON NICODEMUS, Standard-Times staff writer
NEW BEDFORD -- A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by federal agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung's tome on Communism called "The Little Red Book."
Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Brian Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he requested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library's interlibrary loan program.
The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Professor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited at his parents' home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said.
The professors said the student was told by the agents that the book is on a "watch list," and that his background, which included significant time abroad, triggered them to investigate the student further.
"I tell my students to go to the direct source, and so he asked for the official Peking version of the book," Professor Pontbriand said. "Apparently, the Department of Homeland Security is monitoring inter-library loans, because that's what triggered the visit, as I understand it."
Although The Standard-Times knows the name of the student, he is not coming forward because he fears repercussions should his name become public. He has not spoken to The Standard-Times.
The professors had been asked to comment on a report that President Bush had authorized the National Security Agency to spy on as many as 500 people at any given time since 2002 in this country.
The eavesdropping was apparently done without warrants.
The Little Red Book, is a collection of quotations and speech excerpts from Chinese leader Mao Tse-Tung.
In the 1950s and '60s, during the Cultural Revolution in China, it was required reading. Although there are abridged versions available, the student asked for a version translated directly from the original book.
The student told Professor Pontbriand and Dr. Williams that the Homeland Security agents told him the book was on a "watch list."
They brought the book with them, but did not leave it with the student, the professors said.
Dr. Williams said in his research, he regularly contacts people in Afghanistan, Chechnya and other Muslim hot spots, and suspects that some of his calls are monitored.
"My instinct is that there is a lot more monitoring than we think," he said.
Dr. Williams said he had been planning to offer a course on terrorism next semester, but is reconsidering, because it might put his students at risk.
"I shudder to think of all the students I've had monitoring al-Qaeda Web sites, what the government must think of that," he said. "Mao Tse-Tung is completely harmless."
This is exactly the type of scenario wire-tap critics worry about. Not only was this a wasted effort on the part of the government, but now it looks like professors are going to feel limited in what they can teach and students will feel the same in terms of what they're allowed to research, because someone's going to blow it out of proportion and get the wrong idea, making a big deal out of nothing, which could have serious reprecussions regarding whether people's freedom of speech (in a university setting, at least) is really being protected by this.
Surely there are more serious threats to go after than students conducting research for school in order to learn about what's going on in the world for when they're adults and they're the ones calling the shots.
This is why oversight and search warrants are necessary, to make sure we snag the people we're supposed to snag, and not someone reading the wrong book at the wrong time.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-12-19 6:54 PM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I'm sure the inevitable investigation to come...
Because investigating the president, not terrorists, seems to be the only consistent platform in the war on terror the democratic leadership has.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I'm sure the inevitable investigation to come...
Because investigating the president, not terrorists, seems to be the only consistent platform in the war on terror the democratic leadership has.
When did Arlen Specter join the Democratic Party? Last I heard, he's pushing for an investigation also.
I've never understood how Republicans and Democrats can unite against something such as this, and only the Democrats get demonized for it.
So let's not single out Democrats as the "bad guys" for wanting an investigation when prominent Republicans such as Specter want it too.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-12-19 7:10 PM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I'm sure the inevitable investigation to come...
Because investigating the president, not terrorists, seems to be the only consistent platform in the war on terror the democratic leadership has.
Actually it sounds like several Republican leaders are also questioning if it's constitutional or not. You would agree that even the President isn't above the law, right?
Fair play!
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
When did Arlen Specter join the Democratic Party?
Spector's a "RINO," a "Republican In Name Only."
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I'm sure the inevitable investigation to come...
Because investigating the president, not terrorists, seems to be the only consistent platform in the war on terror the democratic leadership has.
What's the President's consistent platform?
Is it his reliance on faulty intel?
Or his "9-11-as-Reichstag" metatheory?
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
When did Arlen Specter join the Democratic Party?
Spector's a "RINO," a "Republican In Name Only."
Would you be so kind as to explain why?
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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9-11
it's the cause of everything....
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Without the rights and liberties guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, of what value is the United States? The President uses the fear of terrorist attacks to justify the reduction of our liberty.
In recent history the government has rounded up natural born US citizens and placed them in concentration camps. It has broken into and wire tapped citizens and their physicians in hopes of gleaning incriminating bits of information. These incedents of violation of civil rights have happened over a period 70 years.
I worry far more about government taking away civil liberties than I do about terrorist attacks. Really, you are far more likely to win Super Lotto than you are to die in a terrorist attack. Even more so now that Al Queda Irregulars can kill USA soldiers much closer to home.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
When did Arlen Specter join the Democratic Party?
Spector's a "RINO," a "Republican In Name Only."
Like Bush...???
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
When did Arlen Specter join the Democratic Party?
Spector's a "RINO," a "Republican In Name Only."
Would you be so kind as to explain why?
He's sane  .
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Pardon me for agreeing my Liberal counterparts (not that I'm a staunch Republican, but this argument is ridiculous.
First, Privacy is every Americans' right. This is the same as illegal search and seizure (sp?).
Second, Until you do something about a wide open border nothing in any new law makes any difference.
Third, we all know this goes on anyway--with or without permission and warrants, and always has. Warrants are only necessary if you want to take someone to court and build a case.
Fourth, Bush is not an idiot..he is a calculating manipulator that plays the idiot--and very well.
Fifth, Agents checking on someone reading a book is rather silly, in context, to the actual threats facing the US if terorists really wanted to go into action.
sixth, this is becoming fascism..democrat and rebublican..the dems are the pc police and the reps are the terrorist police.
seventh, why are we still worried about goofy Iraq when we have 3 or more true threats in the world...the crazy ass in Iran is still publicly stating he wants to nuke israel and bring about the new messianic age....Heeellloooooooooo???
eighth, if you actually tighten airport security and watch the borders more closely you don't need all this bs....Americans police themselves pretty well...
ninth, this is about power not about freedom and liberty and safety...if it was so many free thinking people wouldn't be questioning it.
and ten..G-Man and anyone else if you honestly don't see a problem with any of this..then you are blind and misguided and party puppets..just like many of my liberal counterparts...
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Quote:
Pig Iron said:
First, Privacy is every Americans' right. This is the same as illegal search and seizure (sp?).
Second, Until you do something about a wide open border nothing in any new law makes any difference.
Third, we all know this goes on anyway--with or without permission and warrants, and always has. Warrants are only necessary if you want to take someone to court and build a case.
Fourth, Bush is not an idiot..he is a calculating manipulator that plays the idiot--and very well.
Fifth, Agents checking on someone reading a book is rather silly, in context, to the actual threats facing the US if terorists really wanted to go into action.
sixth, this is becoming fascism..democrat and rebublican..the dems are the pc police and the reps are the terrorist police.
eighth, if you actually tighten airport security and watch the borders more closely you don't need all this bs....Americans police themselves pretty well...
and ten..G-Man and anyone else if you honestly don't see a problem with any of this..then you are blind and misguided and party puppets..just like many of my liberal counterparts...
  
(I couldn't decide which of these graemlins this post deserved the most, so I put them all)
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Pig Iron said:
First, Privacy is every Americans' right. This is the same as illegal search and seizure (sp?).
The "right to privacy" is limited in numerous ways that have been enacted by legislatures and upheld by courts.
Bush was apparently acting under one of those sections of the law. See earlier posts.
This wasn't a case of random, widespread, spying on ordinary Americans. As noted in the articles it was limited to people who might be involved in terrorism.
Remember: we've actually found US citizens involved in terrorist plots.
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Second, Until you do something about a wide open border nothing in any new law makes any difference.
I sort of agree with you here. In fact, I've criticized Bush on several occasions here for not doing more on border security. That doesn't mean, however, that everything else is useless. As noted by the Attorney General the White House's actions did, in fact, foil some plots.
But you're right we need to do more...even though someone will, ironically enough, call that an invasion of privacy.
Also, as noted above, we've actually found that some of the terrorist plotters were US citizens. How would closing the border stop them?
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Third, we all know this goes on anyway--with or without permission and warrants, and always has. Warrants are only necessary if you want to take someone to court and build a case.
Well, not exactly. But if you think it goes on anyway, why are you PO'd at Bush for following precedent?
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Fourth, Bush is not an idiot..he is a calculating manipulator that plays the idiot--and very well.
I agree he isn't an idiot.
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Fifth, Agents checking on someone reading a book is rather silly, in context, to the actual threats facing the US if terorists really wanted to go into action.
Agents checking on someone's reading is a different issue. That was something that was specifically authorized by the Patriot Act and earlier legislation. That isn't what Bush did here.
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sixth, this is becoming fascism..democrat and rebublican..the dems are the pc police and the reps are the terrorist police.
How is it facism? As noted above, this was used in limited circumstances, against people making overseas calls, and regularly vetted by the government to make sure it wasn't overstepping its bounds. When do facists do any of that?
And even I, staunch opponent of "PC" think that calling Political Correctness "facism" is an incredibly simplistic and ridiculous interpretation of the concept.
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seventh, why are we still worried about goofy Iraq when we have 3 or more true threats in the world...the crazy ass in Iran is still publicly stating he wants to nuke israel and bring about the new messianic age....Heeellloooooooooo???
Yeah, I'd like to see Bush nuke the living shit out of Iraq too. But I'd assume we're going to let Israel finish that job. Besides, can you imagine what the "other side" would do if Bush now invaded Iraq?
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eighth, if you actually tighten airport security and watch the borders more closely you don't need all this bs....Americans police themselves pretty well...
Again, I agree with you for the most part.
On the other hand, let's look at one of the last times Bush tried to tighten the border, by requiring everyone to have a passport to go to and from Canada. Hardly facism there. You need a passport to go to England, why not Canada?
But what happened? Congress has a fit, the public had a fit and the proposal was dropped. So don't tell me that its simple to close the borders.
Also, as noted above, we've actually found that some of the terrorist plotters were US citizens. How would closing the border stop them?
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ninth, this is about power not about freedom and liberty and safety...if it was so many free thinking people wouldn't be questioning it.
Free thinking people question all sorts of things, right or wrong. That's part of what makes them free thinkers.
For example, a lot of free thinking people are against curbing immigration and tightening our borders. That's something you're in favor of. Should we abandon that effort because "free thinking people question it" and, by your reckoning, that makes it about "power"?
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and ten..G-Man and anyone else if you honestly don't see a problem with any of this..then you are blind and misguided and party puppets..just like many of my liberal counterparts...
I agreed with you on a couple of points. I guess that makes me a little less blind, misguided and puppety?
Seriously, if this was some sort of widespread program I'd have a bigger problem. But it isn't. If this was spying on political enemies like Clinton and Nixon did, I'd have a bigger problem with it. But it isn't. If this hadn't been vetted by various attorneys and given precedent by federal courts, I'd have a bigger problem with it. But it was.
The bottom line is that, at this point, it looks like this was legal.
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Considering what the White House has said so far it seems Congress without knowing it "gave" the President the authority to do these wiretaps without any judge involved. That's a pretty liberal interpretation! And why not use the original FISA law that would have allowed them to get the wiretaps first & the OK later? Why avoid a judge? Could it be that he's wiretapping folks that a judge wouldn't OK?
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Please America, don't listen in on suspected terrorists phone calls.... or at least if you're going to let them know first. My tollerance for this nonsenses is dissipating daily. We are at war. There acctually ARE people who want to kill us.... that's me, you, your family.
As much as you all like to make jokes about 9-11 it did happen and when it did tehy didn't pat themselves on teh back and say, "well, we made our point, lets move on" They went right back to the drawing board and started planning again for the next attack and the next one.
We have been successfull at thwarting alot of attempts to attack us, but slowly but surely some people have forgotten and want to chip away at the tools that we use to defeat them, slowly inching closer and closer to the dog house just to see ho wlong that leash really is.
All teh Democrats seem to want to do is defeat Bush as though he's the enemy of America (and teh only one at that) When the Gorrelic (sp?) wall was resurected teh press touted it as a defeat for Bush, well, it was a deafeat for national sucurity, wich means it was a defeat for the American people.
They'll do anything to get at W, even leak CIA information that interfears with our execution of the war and endangers us and our troops (who we're sure you all support soooo much). It seems the only kind of CIA leak they care about are those that DON'T compromise national security.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Why avoid a judge?
Or could it be because they wanted to minimise the chance that the opperation would get leaked? But, no, there's noone so low down they'd leak a national security secret that could compromise our mission.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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I don't think anyone here is making the arguement that wiretapping suspected terrorist isn't a bad thing or trying to prevent that WBAM. But up till last week I thought the President required a judge to at least retroactively OK it. And I've yet to hear any reason why to cut the judge out of the loop. Checks & balances folks.
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Matter-eater Man said:
I don't think anyone here is making the arguement that wiretapping suspected terrorist isn't a bad thing or trying to prevent that WBAM. But up till last week I thought the President required a judge to at least retroactively OK it. And I've yet to hear any reason why to cut the judge out of the loop. Checks & balances folks.
My Mom says it's okay to do what he did because we're at war and sometimes you have to give up some of your rights for the war. She said it's okay that Bush did it because she trusts Bush to do it right.
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Matter-eater Man said:
Why avoid a judge? Could it be that he's wiretapping folks that a judge wouldn't OK?
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wannabuyamonkey said:
...could it be because they wanted to minimise the chance that the opperation would get leaked?
Byron York, NR's White House correspondent reports that especially before, and even after, passage of the Patriot Act, the FISA bureaucracy and the agencies that dealt with it were too unwieldy to handle some fast-moving intelligence cases:
In 2002, when the president made his decision, there was widespread, bipartisan frustration with the slowness and inefficiency of the bureaucracy involved in seeking warrants from the special intelligence court, known as the FISA court.
Even later, after the provisions of the Patriot Act had had time to take effect, there were still problems with the FISA court — problems examined by members of the September 11 Commission — and questions about whether the court can deal effectively with the fastest-changing cases in the war on terror.
People familiar with the process say the problem is not so much with the court itself as with the process required to bring a case before the court.
"It takes days, sometimes weeks, to get the application for FISA together," says one source. "It's not so much that the court doesn't grant them quickly, it's that it takes a long time to get to the court. Even after the Patriot Act, it's still a very cumbersome process. It is not built for speed, it is not built to be efficient. It is built with an eye to keeping [investigators] in check."
And even though the attorney general has the authority in some cases to undertake surveillance immediately, and then seek an emergency warrant, that process is just as cumbersome as the normal way of doing things.
Lawmakers of both parties recognized the problem in the months after the September 11 terrorist attacks. They pointed to the case of Coleen Rowley, the FBI agent who ran up against a number roadblocks in her effort to secure a FISA warrant in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the al Qaeda operative who had taken flight training in preparation for the hijackings. Investigators wanted to study the contents of Moussaoui's laptop computer, but the FBI bureaucracy involved in applying for a FISA warrant was stifling, and there were real questions about whether investigators could meet the FISA court's probable-cause standard for granting a warrant. FBI agents became so frustrated that they considered flying Moussaoui to France, where his computer could be examined.
But then the attacks came, and it was too late.
It was in the context of such bureaucratic bottlenecks that the president first authorized, and then renewed, the program to bypass the FISA court in cases of international communications of people with known al Qaeda links.
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Quote:
Uschi said:
...
My Mom says it's okay to do what he did because we're at war and sometimes you have to give up some of your rights for the war. She said it's okay that Bush did it because she trusts Bush to do it right.
It never ceases to amaze me how quick some people are willing to chuck their rights just so that they can feel safe.
Fair play!
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