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In another thread, G-man brought up a difference between a modern liberal and classic liberal. With the way the media and politicians have perverted these terms over the last decade, I'm wondering what they actually mean, and what it means to be a modern and classic liberal or conservative.
This thread is merely a request for a definition, so I ask that there be no actual political discussion or flaming within this discussion. I just want to know what the hell these term really mean.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Liberal:
Someone who is evil.
Conservative:
Someone who is good.
This post has been brought to you by g-man.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
This thread is merely a request for a definition, so I ask that there be no actual political discussion or flaming within this discussion. I just want to know what the hell these term really mean.
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Beyond the partisan stuff I think it's tough coming up with any definitions that please everyone. One factor is that both groups are not static thus preventing a solid definition. Wikipedia breaks Liberals into various groups. Quote:
...One trend within liberalism has been a consensus towards the following:
* Political liberalism is the belief that individuals are the basis of law and society, and that society and its institutions exist to further the ends of individuals, without showing favor to those of higher social rank. The Magna Carta is an example of a political document that asserted the rights of individuals even above the prerogatives of monarchs. Political liberalism stresses the social contract, under which citizens make the laws and agree to abide by those laws. It is based on the belief that individuals know best what is best for them. Political liberalism includes the extension of the right to vote to women, non-whites, and those who do not own property. Political liberalism emphasizes the rule of law and supports liberal democracy.
...
Wikipedia
And that is just the first one.
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Liberalism and Conservatism change with the times. There is no set definition. Just a modernist relativism.
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Many years ago talk show host Chris Matthews came up with an interesting formulation: He said the Democrats were the "mommy party" and the Republicans the "daddy party." That is, the Democrats were "nurturers," concerned with health policy and day care. The Republicans were "protectors," taking care of national security and other manly matters. I think the same is basiscally true of liberals v conservatives. A liberal is someone who trusts the government with meeting social needs. A conservative is someone who trusts it with meeting security and military needs.
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But what about someone who trusts the Government to meet basic social needs (some cap on health care costs, social security) and trusts the Government me meet security and military needs?
Take my own views, for example. I believe the Government needs to set some sort of cap on prescription drug costs across the board, because while I do believe the companies have a right to make a profit, I also believe everyone has a right to affordable drugs. On the other hand, I believe that the military does have to go out to some trouble spots in the world and fix them, because we cannot allow nations to harbor and support terrorists. I also do not believe that these types of actions create new terrorists. I believe that the terrorists would exists regardless of any one nation's actions to combat them, because some people are just plain evil, and no amount of reasoning will ever get through to them.
So what am I? Do I fall into a classification of Liberal? Do I fall into a classification of Conservative? There is no doubt in my mind that the terms have become distorted in modern use, so I am searching for a true meaning to them, not the one that the politicians and the media imply. It's clear that they imply Liberal to be weak and Conservative to be backwards in thinking. We all know that is not the case.
Again, I ask that we keep this discussion away from political flaming. Feel free to use your own beliefs to help better define these terms. That's really the only way I know how to relate to them myself.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
But what about someone who trusts the Government to meet basic social needs (some cap on health care costs, social security) and trusts the Government me meet security and military needs?
Liberal.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
This thread is merely a request for a definition, so I ask that there be no actual political discussion or flaming within this discussion. I just want to know what the hell these term really mean.
... and to think, that spamming yesterday... started because of this thread.
And I'm responsible for most of it!
"Ah good. Now I'm on the internet clearly saying I like tranny cleavage. This shouldn't get me harassed at all." -- Lothar of the Hill People
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Quote:
PCG342 said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
This thread is merely a request for a definition, so I ask that there be no actual political discussion or flaming within this discussion. I just want to know what the hell these term really mean.
... and to think, that spamming yesterday... started because of this thread.
And I'm responsible for most of it!
*This is the only time I will address this, as it is off the topic. I will not respond in this thread, however, if G-man wishes to create another thread to discuss this topic, I will be happy to hash it out over there.
Saying this thread is responsible for the spamming that went on yesterday is like saying a cartoon is responsible for the riots in the Muslim world. The fact is, this is just a topic for discussion, just like those were just cartoons (in very poor taste, but still cartoons) in a news paper.
It is the people who choose how to react to topics or publications that are responsible for their actions. I felt I had to add in a request to keep this topic non political because I did not want to have a political discussion. As the person who began this thread, it is my right to steer the conversation in the direction that I wish to pursue. As moderator, it is G-man's job to make sure that the discussion in this thread remains on the topic that I started.
The people on this board can choose to participate in the discussion at hand or not, that is their right. It is also their right to do what they want when they want on this board. However, it is the moderators' rights, and Rob's right, to put forth a set of rules that respect those who wish to have civil discussion.
This forum, and this thread in particular, is of a more serious nature than the rest of the board, and when a request is made for civil discussion, G-man has a responsibility to honor that request. He cannot control whether other people honor that request, but his style is well known across this board. Everyone knows how G-man moderates this forum. Everyone knows what he will let slide, and what he will not let slide.
I don't know if someone was looking for an excuse to go off on G-man or not, but that was that person's choice. To respond in kind was your choice.
This thread has nothing to do with any of that. This thread is just an honest question seeking an honest answer.
G-man, if you feel this post is inappropriate, feel free to move or delete it.
Now, back to the topic at hand...*
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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I think it should also be pointed out that the liberal-conservative axis can be applied to specific issues. This nuance might help to clarify your own positions Penwing. For example, an individual can be liberal on social issues(i.e. Pro-choice, Civil Rights, etc.) but conservative on economic issues (i.e. lower taxes, a balanced budget, etc.).
I think the majority of Americans are probably moderates who drift one way or the other and as such adopt the moniker of either liberal or conservative. As a child and a young teenager I was definately a conservative, but thanks to my damned secular education I have drifted to the left.
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I think that's the case with most people, but then I don't understand why these terms are so important on the political scale.
It seems to me that these terms should not be used at all to discribe a broad group because they do not apply across the board to any one group of people.
People talk about Republican values and Democratic values, and then try to equate the two with Conservative values and Liberal values, but they do not equate at all. It seems the parties are so desperate to survive that they have taken an all or nothing stance, where Republicans have to be across the board conservatives, and Democrats have to be across the board liberals.
But that doesn't work. I don't think there is a single person on this board who is across the board liberal or conservative, not really. I think we have some people who are very close, but for the most part, I think it breaks down differently.
I think many people are conservative wrt social issues, but liberal wrt ecomomic issues, much like myself.
I also think many people are liberal wrt to social issues, but conservative wrt to economic issues, which is the opposite of myself.
And yes, there are people who are conservative wrt to both social and economic issues.
Of course, there are also people who are liberal wrt to both social and economic issues.
Looking at all of that, and looking at the two party system in the united states, only half of the possible life outlooks are being represented in government. So that's why I started this thread, because I'm looking for a definition that fits the political system I vote in.
However, what I see is a two party system that should actually be a four party system, and I think the majority party could well be the people like myself, people who are conservative wrt to social issues, but liberal wrt to economic issues.
This is all speculation on my part, because it could well be that people who are conservative on both issues truly do hold the majority in the States.
But, even if that is the case, of one thing I am certain: I am not represented by anyone in any office.
And I take offense to the way the terms liberal and conservative are thrown around, because I am both and neither, and none of this makes any sense.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Saying this thread is responsible for the spamming that went on yesterday is like saying a cartoon is responsible for the riots in the Muslim world. The fact is, this is just a topic for discussion, just like those were just cartoons (in very poor taste, but still cartoons) in a news paper.
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rex is sensitive about spamming. 
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You would be too if you took the beating he did. 
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Did you need your diaper changed?
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Quote:
PenWing said:
This forum, and this thread in particular, is of a more serious nature than the rest of the board, and when a request is made for civil discussion, G-man has a responsibility to honor that request. He cannot control whether other people honor that request, but his style is well known across this board. Everyone knows how G-man moderates this forum. Everyone knows what he will let slide, and what he will not let slide.
Now, back to the topic at hand...*
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Sorry G-man.
I find it hard to focus on this thread because Liberal and Conservative are words that are never associated with actual definitions, but instead with feelings and impressions. Therefore any discussion on the subject will lead to a wide variety of fluff that doesn't actually impact how any of us see the world.
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Right. People get mad and throw these around, much like calling things/concepts/people "gay" or "stupid" when they're anything BUT.
Same concept.
It's just pointless nonsense. We're only gonna annoy each other as well as ourselves.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
I think that's the case with most people, but then I don't understand why these terms are so important on the political scale.
It seems to me that these terms should not be used at all to discribe a broad group because they do not apply across the board to any one group of people.
I agree but I think it persists for two primary reasons. One people like to be part of a group and have a "handle" that quickly describes their outlook on life (i.e. anyword ending with -ism). Second, it is extremely advantageous for the people at the top to limit political options to two general choices. Divide and conquor.
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Very true, but there are actually four choices, one of which I am a part of, and yet I have no clear representation. So, in America, I am being taxed without representation! Isn't that unconstitutional?
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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No, because you are represented, just not by the person you wanted. The fact that your candidate didn't win or didn't run does not mean you aren't represented. You still have the right to vote, or even run yourself.
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You would think it's that simple, G-man, but it's not. The all conservative and all liberal parties (as the extreme members have completely taken over both the Rebublicans and the Democrats) do everything they can to ensure that voting for a third party is a wasted vote.
If social issues weren't a part of every election side show, than maybe things would be different. However, the main parties have tied social issues directly into their platforms, so until this country wakes up to the fact that we have two poorly represnted (if at all) political groups, the extremes will always have their way.
And I just don't see that changing.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
the G-man said:
No, because you are represented, just not by the person you wanted. The fact that your candidate didn't win or didn't run does not mean you aren't represented. You still have the right to vote, or even run yourself.
When you don't have any options, you don't have a say in the matter. If asked, "Killconey, would you rather be kicked in the balls or punched in the balls?" I would prefer to answer, "None of the above." Does the fact that I was asked my preference overide the fact that I'm about to receive great testicular pain?
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