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Reading comics these days is very entertaining,much as they have been for years,but lately I've been wondering if comics have pushed the "reality envelope" too far.With the TPB explosion and a lot of older comics being reprinted in an economical format(i.e. Marvel's Essential & DC's Showcase line),you can readily see how comics have gone from simple escapism & fantasy to "relevant" storytelling.The way most heroes and villains "talk" in comics are no longer drawn out/big-word soliloquies,they say things that real people would say(or as real as people could be in comics).
Civil War & Secret War have really shown these things IMO.Watchmen showed it first I think,but even after that most mainstream comics didn't take themselves seriously.Oh sure there was more "grim & gritty" storytelling but there was still a sense of,I dunno......disbelief maybe.I guess sometimes I get a sense of comics not being much fun anymore.That these days it's about relevance to the real world & such.Politics & current world situations that go on are now the focus of storylines and how this hero would fight this hero over a law instead of fighting the bad guy or beating back a scum-sucking Badoon army out to overthrow the human race.
Villains are now "Heroes" and heroes are now "villains".Is it good stortelling? Yes,I think it is.I've been riveted by the Civil War(except Civil War #5 but I digress on that one).My only question now is "What's Next?".To me this is about as real as it could get in comics.Do they continue in that vein and keep going farther & farther away from Good Guy(s)/girl(s) vs. Bad Guy(s)/Girl(s) with a bit of characterization or do they pull back a bit?
I wouldn't say all comics are like this.Far from it.Most of DC's books are good vs. bad and such & not too far from what they've been for the past 30-40 years & I enjoy a lot of their titles.Marvel on the other hand have been moving this way for a number of years and while some books like the new Ant-Man or She-Hulk books are fun reads,most of Marvel's titles have gone to the "reality side".Does anyone else see this? Do you think it's good,bad or ugly?
Thoughts are most welcome.
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I addressed a similar issue in a paper I wrote for Ethics.
Comic book creators have a serious quandary. Without going academia here, I'll just sum up.
The average age of the comic book reader is growing up. Most of us are in our mid-20's with some deviation of ten years (and even more toward older readers pushing the range upward in age but not so much in the other direction). Yet, comic books are often packaged for younger readers. DC and Marvel have both said clearly (and I can find attribution if anyone needs it) that they need to attract younger readers for the industry to endure.
Yet, look at the Front Page banner for this thread. Wonder Woman, a model for young girls to look up to and aspire toward, is breaking a man's neck in cold blood. Granted, it was a kickass story. And the way the character had changed and the elements of the plot, I enjoyed the story. (This is to say nothing of the growinf moral ambiguity developing in the big three, heady, heady stuff.)
Still, this is clearly a story that is not written for a ten-year-old. Which, I have no problems with. I went back and tried to read comics of my youth, the ones that got me into comics (80's) and they're nigh unreadable. As a consumer, I love how the stories and plots are growing up with me. I love how the stories have more to offer me than the Chameleon trying to figure out Spidey's secret identity for 13th time or the Joker planning another elaborate but foolish heist.
Looking at it as a possible future parent, I see very few comics on my shelf that I'd let my kid read (without my supervision) before his or her prepubescent years. (I mean really, would you let your nine-year-old read Millar's run on the Authority or his Wanted?)
Sure, they are comics for kids. But is the difference clearly marked? You can walk into Hastings (a local bookstore chain) and find Ultimate titles next the OMAC Project. Sure, Ultimate's not bad. Ult. Spidey and FF would be great books for a young kid of the future to cut their comic book-reading teeth on. But not so much the Ultimates (thanks, Millar!).
I guess, to answer your question in a vague, roundabout and unsatisfactory manner, I'm of two minds. The comic fan inside me that's grown up to be a discerning, educated reader, loves today's comics. But there's quite a minefield to wade through in the future when I introduce Kaz Jr. to Daredevil and Co.
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Quote:
Kaz said:
Looking at it as a possible future parent
Congrats, man! When will you find out if there's a Jason or Jasonina in there?
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As someone who has no kids or possible kids, I'm not torn. I'm all for the main DCU and Marvel lines being more adult. There are alternate titles out there that are made for kids. Give 'em those.
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Quote:
I went back and tried to read comics of my youth, the ones that got me into comics (80's) and they're nigh unreadable.
Yeah. I bought Crisis on Multiple Earths Vols 3 and 4 the other day. Wow. It really brought home just how much comics have changed in the past few decades. They are incredibly more sophisticated in terms of writing, art, and even paper quality. You can't even compare Cary Bates, who wrote JLA, to Grant Morrison. And there is a lot more sex in them - Zatanna in fishnets in JLA is nothing compared to Adam Hughes' Wonder Woman covers let along Witchblade or Vampirella.
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There's definitely a lot more death these days.
I have mixed feelings on this one.
Let me use He-Man, for example.
Stories I found entertaining when I was kid are nice to look over, but can be boring. I can't seem to make it through my MOTU box dvd sets without dozing off, but I still try and watch for the fun of them. The characters are universal and familiar. But now I notice in a big way that He-man and She-Ra never really punched anyone that wasn't a robot, or never really went after anyone with their swords. The threats from the bad guys are a little lame. It was definitely aimed at a kid audience. Not very much violence at all. Sure, there's a constant struggle....but my son laughs at it. He's blowing people up on the X-box.
There's potential in the MOTU series - it could be a very dark, violent, action-packed series. They could completely flip that format and make it a thing of "grown-up" entertainment. I want that. I want a series that can go further with me now that I'm an adult. And at the same time, I'm not sure I'd ever want to see a series where He-Man's snapping necks and Skeletor is raping Teela.
And this, for me, sorta applies to the DCU as well. I'm glad that my favorite characters can keep me entertained at 30, but I'm a little squeamish to see how far things go sometimes. Characters like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are worldly, if not universal icons. They mean things to people who don't even really read comic books. They're symbols for "good". But you can only be entertained by mild-violence story and a "g" rating for so long. It's definitely a sacrifice.
I will say, I sorta do enjoy a more violent medium - but the padding for trades is almost unbearable. I wish comics would get back to BIG stories between a lesser number of issues.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Kaz said:
Looking at it as a possible future parent
Congrats, man! When will you find out if there's a Jason or Jasonina in there?
When I knock her up?
POSSIBLE future parent... not IMPENDING future parent.
You're silly.
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I guess what it boils down to for me is that I'd like to see DC keep the icons' appearances in "comic books" relatively "kid friendly" because, at their heart, they are American childrens' literary figures.
At the same time, I recognize that their status as iconic literary figures can warrant their usage to explore more adult material too.
Accordingly, my preference would be that more adult material be confined to graphic novels or prestige format books, where its a little more clear that the material isn't for kids.
That way, there's something for everybody.
(And, by "kid friendly," I don't mean dumbed down stories or simplistic art. I mean well written and well drawn stuff, but not necessarily as violent or sexual as more adult material).
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Books like All Star Superman or Madman are fun without being stupid. That's progression, I think: being able to tell complex stories with the same simple surface comics used 40 years ago.
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A.S. Superman is a good example of what I mean. The book is reasonably kid friendly but can still appeal to an adult.
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This blog, by a former DC and Marvel employee, sheds some light on the true editorial reasons behind Identity Crisis. Read entry #8, "We Need a Rape", or start at the bottom if you wanna read the whole thing (it involves a broken vagina).
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I'd like to say I'm shocked, but I'm not. DC's hype machine all but admitted/bragged that the purpose of IC was to make the DCU more grim and gritty. And coupled with the various people saying that DiDio hated, hated, "fun" characters, it only stood to reason. Going off topic a bit, the blogger's friend described here sounds disturbingly like LLance: "An older man, has had health problems for a while now. ....He would rather spend his last dime on the latest Marvel Essentials or art supplies than his diabetes medication. Do you know how many people I've known like that in my life?"
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Quote:
Kaz said:
When I knock her up?
Oh, sorry, no. The correct answer was March 21, 2007.
Thank you for playing, though.
Quote:
Kaz said:
POSSIBLE future parent... not IMPENDING future parent.
You're silly.
The thought she might be preggers was silly, but not the Jasonina part?
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I don't think comics have "progressed" far enough.
If you are getting your morality, ethics, or life-lessons from comics, your outlook and objectivism about life itself will be incredibly skewed. "What would Superman do?" does not, and cannot, apply to realistic parameters of conduct. Can you lift a car? Nope. Superman can, though. Thus, it's illogical to base your morality from a fictional "superhero".
Comic books are for entertainment. Period. Anything more, and it's akin to getting your sexual instincts from a women's magazine, or, your athletic purpose from Sports Illustrated.
Modern sensibilities are complex, and, certainly alot more sophisticated than they were thirty-years ago. Comics should have no problem with adapting, progressing, and evolving into a medium that can sustain the same amount of entertainment value as any other media.
There are lines of comics for kids. This should not change. No five-year-old should be reading Identity Crisis. However, no adult should have to sift through the idiotic and dumbed-down nostalgic wank that guys like Johns and Loeb push.
I think Wonder Woman should be offing bad guys twenty-four-seven. Then she would be a character relatable to modern sensibilities. Same with Batman's moronic "no killing" policy. That's neither believable, nor intelligent. Should Superman kill? When there's no other option, yes. When it comes to guys like Zod, and others of similiar-powered ilk? Definitely.
But, if that's the case, then make the killing matter. If comics kills a character, they stay dead. Period. No coming back. No flashbacks, or special minis. If they are willing to kill a character, then, that character never shows up again. This not only makes the decision to kill something to take seriously, but, actually shows the realistic ramifications of death. No parachutes for these Cobra pilots, if you know what I mean.
You want heroes and characters that are relevant to modern times? Show me heroes and characters strong enough, and dedicated enough beyond outdated, childish morality to get the job done.
Otherwise, it's just another round in the circular wheel of redundancy...
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I don't think killing makes that much of a difference... you can tell a mature story about a guy who refuses to kill, just like you can write something Loebish about a guy who doesn't.
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However, being restricted by those parameters, and having a character "defined" by said parameters, is antithetical to storytelling freedom...
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Only if the kinda stories you wanna tell are limited to begin with. Who says killing is even gonna be relevant to the stories?
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
There are lines of comics for kids. This should not change. No five-year-old should be reading Identity Crisis. However, no adult should have to sift through the idiotic and dumbed-down nostalgic wank that guys like Johns and Loeb push.
I think Wonder Woman should be offing bad guys twenty-four-seven. Then she would be a character relatable to modern sensibilities. Same with Batman's moronic "no killing" policy. That's neither believable, nor intelligent. Should Superman kill? When there's no other option, yes. When it comes to guys like Zod, and others of similiar-powered ilk? Definitely.
But no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you, at the approximate age of thirty, to read stories about characters who were created primarily as childrens' stories, regardless of who is writing them. You don't "have" to sift through any writer's work.
And as far as what "modern sensibilities" are, I think that really is a matter of individual preference and the age of the reader involved. When you consider the pacifisitic nature of many people, there are probably as many people who would prefer to see a superhero not kill. In fact, comparing, for example, the average Punisher story to the average Batman story, I think one could legitimately argue there's nothing at all "complex" about a superhero killing his enemies instead of finding other ways to subdue them. Doesn't the fact that Batman lets the Joker live, and the consequents of that, invite a greater level of moral complexity than just killing him outright?
Like I said, I have no problem in the proper format telling "adult" stories with "kids" characters but I think that they should remain, primarily, kid accessible characters.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I don't think comics have "progressed" far enough.
If you are getting your morality, ethics, or life-lessons from comics, your outlook and objectivism about life itself will be incredibly skewed. "What would Superman do?" does not, and cannot, apply to realistic parameters of conduct. Can you lift a car? Nope. Superman can, though. Thus, it's illogical to base your morality from a fictional "superhero".
I don't follow. What does physical strength have to do with moral fiber?
Quote:
Prometheus said:
Comic books are for entertainment. Period. Anything more, and it's akin to getting your sexual instincts from a women's magazine, or, your athletic purpose from Sports Illustrated.
I could write several paragraphs telling you why I think comic books (at least certain comic books) COULD and SHOULD be more than just entertainment, but I won't. I'll just say that I think comic books could be held to much higher standards than that, if only we as readers would allow it. Think you make, it could.
But I digest...
Quote:
Prometheus said:
There are lines of comics for kids. This should not change.
Yay!
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Prometheus said:
I think Wonder Woman should be offing bad guys twenty-four-seven. Then she would be a character relatable to modern sensibilities.
So should Captain America. The dude is a soldier, by criminey!
Quote:
Prometheus said:
Same with Batman's moronic "no killing" policy. That's neither believable, nor intelligent. Should Superman kill? When there's no other option, yes. When it comes to guys like Zod, and others of similiar-powered ilk? Definitely.
I rather like Batman's no killing policy. It works with the character's origin.
Quote:
Prometheus said:
But, if that's the case, then make the killing matter. If comics kills a character, they stay dead. Period. No coming back. No flashbacks, or special minis. If they are willing to kill a character, then, that character never shows up again. This not only makes the decision to kill something to take seriously, but, actually shows the realistic ramifications of death. No parachutes for these Cobra pilots, if you know what I mean.
This should apply to WW and CA, methinks.
Quote:
Prometheus said:
You want heroes and characters that are relevant to modern times? Show me heroes and characters strong enough, and dedicated enough beyond outdated, childish morality to get the job done.
Otherwise, it's just another round in the circular wheel of redundancy...
Green Arrow fucked a black chick.
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Only if the kinda stories you wanna tell are limited to begin with. Who says killing is even gonna be relevant to the stories?
No one. However, I don't think it should be placed as a limitation on the character to the point you have absurd reasons for them not to kill...
Quote:
G-Man said:
But no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you, at the approximate age of thirty, to read stories about characters who were created primarily as childrens' stories, regardless of who is writing them. You don't "have" to sift through any writer's work.
And as far as what "modern sensibilities" are, I think that really is a matter of individual preference and the age of the reader involved. When you consider the pacifisitic nature of many people, there are probably as many people who would prefer to see a superhero not kill. In fact, comparing, for example, the average Punisher story to the average Batman story, I think one could legitimately argue there's nothing at all "complex" about a superhero killing his enemies instead of finding other ways to subdue them. Doesn't the fact that Batman lets the Joker live, and the consequents of that, invite a greater level of moral complexity than just killing him outright?
Like I said, I have no problem in the proper format telling "adult" stories with "kids" characters but I think that they should remain, primarily, kid accessible characters.
I'm aware of your opinions on the concept that I...and my opinions...are the downfall of modern comics. And civilization. We've discussed this bit before.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
I don't follow. What does physical strength have to do with moral fiber?
I meant it in terms of comparison and relatibility. Living up to fictional standards, and all that. Sorry if it was a bit hazy. I was in a hurry, and paraphrasing an old rant.
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I could write several paragraphs telling you why I think comic books (at least certain comic books) COULD and SHOULD be more than just entertainment, but I won't. I'll just say that I think comic books could be held to much higher standards than that, if only we as readers would allow it. Think you make, it could.
I.....don't understand that last sentence. However, I would be all for comics being held to a higher standard. But, only if the content and character parameters were held to the same. Until then, placing a morally two-dimensional being in a "complex" world is a waste of concept and, generally, execution.
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So should Captain America. The dude is a soldier, by criminey!
Preach it.
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I rather like Batman's no killing policy. It works with the character's origin.
And yet, is for me, the hardest one to swallow. The Joker's continued survival just grates the boundaries of logic.
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This should apply to WW and CA, methinks.
Totally. If they kill, it means something.
Quote:
Green Arrow fucked a black chick.
Prove it!
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I'm aware of your opinions on the concept that I...and my opinions...are the downfall of modern comics. And civilization. We've discussed this bit before.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm simply noting that, while you prefer to read a certain type of story, others do not and that, contrary to your insinuation, you don't "have" to read those stories. (Your word, not mine)
I'm also specutlating that, perhaps, we all need to recognize that certain chracters work better as more innocent ones and that we should not try to change those particular characters. I think we also need to recognize that, if certain characters don't "progress" the way we want them to, maybe we need to accept they aren't the characters we should worry about reading now that we're adults.
Maybe, just maybe, some comic book characters are like the toys we played with. Instead of still playing with the same toys at age 40 we played with at age 4, and demanding the toys change, we should put those particular toys down, find ones that are more age appropriate for us, and let the current crop of kids discover the old toys the same way we did.
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I like the use of the word "we" all through there. All you're saying is the same stuff you've said many times before. You're saying that if I don't like how it's done, don't read it. However, I offer that maybe if they were doing it my way, I could say the same to you. So, in the end, I acknowledge your opinion, yet, don't accept it as useful. Thanks...
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Quote:
You're saying that if I don't like how it's done, don't read it. However, I offer that maybe if they were doing it my way, I could say the same to you.
That's sort of my point.
Some characters are written for adults. Some are written for kids.
Adults shouldn't bitch when kids' characters aren't being written for them. They should find literature that is better suited to their own age instead.
That's all.
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Hence the topic of my paper...
Which should the comic book industry embrace? Have their comics grow up with their readers (a la Pro) or should they continue to market the books (and write them) towards young readers?
I mean, it's a hard choice to make.
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It shouldn't be. As I said earlier:
Quote:
the G-man said:
I guess what it boils down to for me is that I'd like to see DC keep the icons' appearances in "comic books" relatively "kid friendly" because, at their heart, they are American childrens' literary figures.
At the same time, I recognize that their status as iconic literary figures can warrant their usage to explore more adult material too.
Accordingly, my preference would be that more adult material be confined to graphic novels or prestige format books, where its a little more clear that the material isn't for kids.
That way, there's something for everybody.
Kids get Batman comic books. Adults get graphic novels on nice paper, such as DKR and Arkham Asylum.
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In todays day and age...comics are a dead medium. There are too many other dynamic entertainment choices out there for kids. The only route to take here for companies is to milk the aging collectors, and hope that others catch on in their late teens, college years due to kitch factor.
There is no point in investing in marketing to an audience who's attention is firmly focused on more dynamic mediums.
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While I agree with klinton that kids these days are certainly more entranced by other mediums of entertainment, it's not without some degree of truth that rudimentary forms have known to capture the mainstream youth. Take reading, for example. Not the major choice, by far. Yet, book series like Harry Potter have gone a long way into turning reading into something a vast number of the youth market craves.
Of course, Potter isn't dumbed down, or written strictly for children, either. The essence, style, and plot of the books continue to evolve, adapt, and mature with its audience. As the readers grow, so does the story, and so does the Potter character.
I feel this could, and maybe even should, be applied to comics as a medium. Evolve, progress, adapt, and mature the books with its readership. Create new titles for new modern markets of youth, and sustain older ones on the maturing audience that grew up with it...
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
No one. However, I don't think it should be placed as a limitation on the character to the point you have absurd reasons for them not to kill...
I think, much like continuity, stuff like that can be taken as a limitation or an advantage given the context... So, it's not necessarily bad in itself, enforcing the rule to ridiculous extremes is.
Thinking out loud. Don't say "That's what I said!".
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1
Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1 |
That's what I sa--.....
Oh. Okay.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,289
2000+ posts
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2000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,289 |
People seem to be forgetting the fact that super heroes can never truly evolve past being kids books because they are essentially fucking retarded.
I love em and we've all grown up with them, our disbelief is well and truly suspended, but for crying out loud look at them!!!
For the industry to survive they need to make the books accessible or it will die with us.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 |
Comics should be published for a myriad of readers. There should be a Superman book with more adult concepts and themes and one for young children for simple escapist fun and introduction into the medium. And Teen Titans should be a middle ground for teenagers to bridge the gap. Kinda like how Marvel set up the MK and Max prints, but more of a concentration on the target readership rather than just how violent the book is or whether or not it can say 'fuck'.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,069
Public Enemy #4 4000+ posts
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Public Enemy #4 4000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,069 |
But...I like it when the book is violent and they say "fuck". I AM the target audience.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You are a god damned idiot, you know that? You ought to be smacked upside your dumb-fuck head, even after all these years. Shame on you! -USCHI showin' some love
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392
[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
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[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392 |
I liked it when Luke Cage fucked Jessica Jones up the ass.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,405
3000+ posts
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3000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2004
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So does Jessica. The dirty bitch.
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