no one I know caught onto the "Courting death" line. I was like holy shit Thanos is gonna hit them hard! And they were like huh? and I was like cuz...cuz Thanos wiped out half the universe or whatever to impress Death... And they were like ok, whatever Keith. And I was like Dammit why aren't you geeks like me but I said that in my heart not out loud because that would be awkward
no one I know caught onto the "Courting death" line. I was like holy shit Thanos is gonna hit them hard! And they were like huh? and I was like cuz...cuz Thanos wiped out half the universe or whatever to impress Death... And they were like ok, whatever Keith. And I was like Dammit why aren't you geeks like me but I said that in my heart not out loud because that would be awkward
That kind of reminds me of a Far Side cartoon, where a girl was in a bar and was unwittingly "flirting with death", smiling invitingly at the Grim Reaper across a crowded bar.
I actually have no interest in the Avengers movie.
I was told the Spiderman movie was great. I saw it, and thought that despite some nice special effects, that it was really trite and two-dimensional. And sucked.
Same thing the X-men movie.
Same thing the Hulk movie.
I skipped the Daredevil and Elecktra movies.
I watched the first Iron Man movie on TV about a year ago. I thought it sucked too. When it came out, there were people telling me "Ohhhh, it's great it's great!" I didn't find it even tolerably decent. No offense to those who enjoyed them, but they're just in a style that doesn't appeal to me. Much like the comics themselves over the last 20 or so years.
I liked the 1989 Batman movie. All the Christopher Reeves Superman movies (yes, even III and IV), the 70's Bill Bixby Hulk TV series. And a lot of others like The Mask, Mystery Men, The Phantom with Billy Zane, the live-action Tick TV series, and a few others. I thought both of the Hellboy movies were very well done and true to the original series.
While I wasn't a huge fan of Frank Miller's 300, I felt it was better as a movie than as a graphic novel. Sin City was also a faithful adaptation, but still not great, either in comic book or movie form. Same with From Hell, and Watchmen, and V For Vendetta. None worth the ticket price in my opinion.
Even the two Batman films with Christian Bale, however arguably well done in many ways, ultimately were silly to me in their unrelenting seriousness, and not movies I'd watch again.
I mostly enjoy comics as comics, and think they don't for the most part adapt well into movies, at least for my taste.
I actually have no interest in the Avengers movie.
I was told the Spiderman movie was great. I saw it, and thought that despite some nice special effects, that it was really trite and two-dimensional. And sucked.
Same thing the X-men movie.
Same thing the Hulk movie.
I skipped the Daredevil and Elecktra movies.
I watched the first Iron Man movie on TV about a year ago. I thought it sucked too.
Seriously, Dave...I have to suggest you give Avengers a shot at the theater. It's beautiful. There's a lot of wonderful nods to the Marvel Universe, and the single best HULK since Bixby/Ferrigno. Who(Ferrigno) btw was quoted by the USAToday as saying HE thinks Ruffalo's the best Banner/Hulk since he and Billy owned the TV screens.
All I'm saying is, it's all popcorn. Lot's a of epic fun. You really should give it a shot, man...
Roughly the Lee/Kirby issues, the Roy Thomas/Neal Adams/Tom Palmer issues (Kree-Skrull war, issues 93-97, these more for Adams than Thomas), and the Perez and Byrne issues, from 141-202, and latter Jim Shooter period from 203-224.
This for me was the Avengers.
I especially like the Michelinie/Byrne/Green issues, from 181-191. The Wundagore trade disappointingly only collects 181-187, and doesn't include the concluding issues (188-191) of the Gyrich government takeover storyline.
That was the one with the Joker? Yes, like I said, it was very intense and I thought dealt with serious issues of good and evil as well as any costumed hero movie could. But it was overly long and unrelentingly serious, and this lost it points for me. I'd still say it's a great representation of comics in movie form, but not my cup of tea.
Quote:
You didn't like Tony Stark's redemption storyline? You didn't fall in love with RDJ?
I don't know how to talk to you, man.
Nope, and nope.
I love the Michelinie/Romita Jr/Layton issues, from 115-156, though. My favorite series of the time, even over Byrne's X-MEN run.
That's Tony Stark for me. Robert Downey Jr. for me played it way too cocky in the Iron Man movie.
The Marvel characters as I loved them best, in this 1982 promotional poster for SQ Productions, as advertised in virtually all the Nov 1982 titles for Marvel. I was one of the lucky few who got one in the mail right before SQ Productions went out of business.
That was the one with the Joker? Yes, like I said, it was very intense and I thought dealt with serious issues of good and evil as well as any costumed hero movie could. But it was overly long and unrelentingly serious, and this lost it points for me. I'd still say it's a great representation of comics in movie form, but not my cup of tea.
I get that. In retrospect, I think we all were blown away by how serious Nolan was willing to take a comic book property. It was truly revolutionary, as far as comic book movies. But, compared to something like The Avengers, you're right....it was waaaaay too serious. The current DKRises trailers look positively depressing compared to the popcorn excitement of something like The Avengers. It's an interesting parallel.
Quote:
That's Tony Stark for me. Robert Downey Jr. for me played it way too cocky in the Iron Man movie.
I can also understand this, if you have an idea of what Stark's personality is like. I think for my generation, onwards, Marvel wasn't quite sure how to evolve him beyond the Corporate Weapons Manufacturer with a drinking problem. It was great for the day, and successfully graduated him beyond the original Stan Lee angle of a nearly cinematic Howard Hughes type figure, with slight hints of James Bond thrown in. For the modern audience, I personally think it's far more representative of a modern tech-genius with a massive narcissistic streak that RDJ portrays him as. Seems more believable for me that someone in his line of work, with his wealth, in this modern age, would be that type of self-centered asshole (to begin with). Luckily, the sequel and Avengers allowed him to evolve more towards the Tony we're familiar with. But, it would have been way to unbelievable if his "change of heart" (literally) completely rewrote the man's personality all at once. It's been fun to watch humbleness creep up on him, even as he continued to try and play the same playboy billionaire facade to the world at large. By Avengers, I think he really grows up. Especially at the end.
All of that said, I'm guessing I can't convince you to go see it without sending you the money to do so. But, if you can catch a matinee, and try, I think you'll enjoy the nostalgic Marvel Universe romp we finally get in full cinematic glory. It's a lot of fun. Lots of laughs. But, they get every character absolutely right. Steve Rogers is Steve Rogers, you know? There's one scene near the beginning that sums his character up perfectly:
{Thor has just taken Loki from the two strangers that captured him (Cap & IM) and Stark's gone after him. Cap is suiting up to follow...}
BLACK WIDOW: "Captain, you may want to sit this one out. Loki and his brother....well, they're practically gods..."
CAPTAIN AMERICA (completely serious) : "M'am, there's only one God, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that..."
The Marvel characters as I loved them best, in this 1982 promotional poster for SQ Productions, as advertised in virtually all the Nov 1982 titles for Marvel. I was one of the lucky few who got one in the mail right before SQ Productions went out of business.
NIIIICE!!! I remember that, as well (I'm really not too far behind you in age, obviously). It's funny looking at that (looks like early Byrne/Austin art) I'd forgotten about MACHINE MAN and that Captain Universe-looking guy. Was that his name? The one with the 'cosmic' effect under Namor? Anyway, I remember the Barry Windsor-Smith MACHINE MAN miniseries. That shit was pretty Blade-Runner-advanced for its day. I was fascinated by the concept and the artwork (with WEAPON X being my fave BWS work)...
You didn't like Tony Stark's redemption storyline? You didn't fall in love with RDJ?
I don't know how to talk to you, man.
Nope, and nope.
I love the Michelinie/Romita Jr/Layton issues, from 115-156, though. My favorite series of the time, even over Byrne's X-MEN run.
That's Tony Stark for me. Robert Downey Jr. for me played it way too cocky in the Iron Man movie.
Yeah, I appreciate that they are trying to "evolve" Tony Stark in the comics over the last 30 years or so, and are attempting to make him appeal to a newer and younger audience than in the era that I was enthusiastically reading.
But while I agree that many CEO's are no doubt smirking self-absorbed jerks, I still think there are many that operate with a standard of integrity that would surprise you. That like Tony Stark's portrayal in the Michelinie/Romita Jr/Layton issues I listed, there are executives who have standards of business that they won't compromise, in who they buy from and how they do business. The media tends to exemplify the Bernie Madoffs and the Enrons, and ignore the admirable ones. I recall a TIME magazine intervew of the CEO at the time of Exxon in 1989, a few months after the Exxon-Valdez oil spill in Alaska. I was stunned at his arrogance, basically saying "yeah, well, 50,000 people tore up their Exxon gas credit cards after the spill in protest. But 100,000 got new cards from the publicity. We don't care!" Or words to that effect. If you've ever seen an interview of the guy who created and runs the "Girls Gone Wild" videos, he's the quintessence of a heartless CEO who cares nothing about people, in love with his own self-proclaimed brilliance, and focused completely exploiting people for maximum profit. I actually saw him from a distance when I rented a car at the Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport. His jet was on the runway, with an army of security guards. He needs them, there's a lot of angry dads of exploited daughters out there!
Since you mentioned Blade Runner, I read an obituary of Philip K. Dick, who died about 3 months before seeing Blade Runner released in the theatres. It mentioned that despite having a prolific writing career, and awards, Dick never earned more than 19,000 a year. And when his book Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep was adapted into the Bladerunner film, the producers wanted the author to re-write his book to match the film, which Dick incredibly declined, and also declined a royaly of about $500,000 with it. "I just can't justify taking a perfectly good book and turning it into a bad one", he was quoted as saying. I have a copy of the paperback that bears the original novel that has both the original and BladeRunner titles on the cover, and reprints the original novel.
An architect named Addison Mizner, who built the exclusive Everglades Club in Palm Beach, Florida, and 40 mansions there as well, including the Kennedy family mansion, used his commisions to begin a land development in Boca Raton, in 1925-1926. But a land fraud scandal in the Northern newspapers made people afraid to buy land, or continue to make payments on the Mizner land they already purchased. So Mizner's land development company went bankrupt. Mizner could have preserved his assets and stiffed a lot of people in the bankruptcy, but did his best to cover his employees. One in particular, Mizner authority historian Don Curl told me, was a young family man in his 30's with a wife and children. Mizner gave him money from a separate commission he'd earned for a home he designed in Miami, so the guy and his family could cover expenses to move and get a fresh start. (Mizner also, a city redevelopment architect told me, was gay. You can read between the lines in Curl's biography and see that. He was never known to date women, and lived with male friends, such as Paris Singer, heir to the Singer sewing machine fortune.)
Federal Express was begun in 1973, just a few weeks before the first oil crisis, which more than tripled the cost of feul. Needless to say, it was a horrible time to begin a feul-based delivery business. But the CEO believed that the crisis could not last, and secured tens of millions in loans from investors who believed in FedEx. And the CEO was honest with his employees, who also believed in him and continued to do their jobs, even at the clear risk of bankruptcy and not getting paid.
Microsoft is another company that has shared profits with its employees, and left many of them rich, or at least very well off.
I recall Harley Davidson made a supreme effort to take care of their manufacturing employees and not offshore jobs as well.
So... there's a lot of honest and decent guys among the jerks.
But what I loved about Tony Stark in the Michelinie/Romita Jr/Layton run was that he was confident without being arrogant. He had loyalty and appreciation for people, those who worked for him, and those who were anonymous but potentially affected by his product. I loved how he refused to manufacture munitions, despite their stated potential to exponentially increase his corporate profits. I loved how he enjoyed the benefits of being enormously rich, the women, etc., but always with the attitude of "I worked hard for this, what the heck, I deserve to enjoy it once in a while."
I loved his disgust for the Roxxon and Brand executives, who had a polar opposite ruthless and exploitative way of doing business. But played in the stories with humor. I recall a scene from a technology convention in issue 145, where Stark met the CEO of Roxxon, and the Roxxon exec said "Here, Stark, have a button." And walks away, with Stark just staring at the Roxxon button. Stark turns in the next panel and tosses it in a garbage can, and says: "Here, garbage can, have a button!"
There was a level of understated humor and humility in Stark in those issues, despite his enormous wealth and global holdings, that really appealed to me. But again, I guess what was exciting for me might be dull to a younger audience in a new era.
....well, sure. But, who wants to watch a movie about a really swell guy with no internal growth? This is one of the jerks who learns what it means to BE one of the "good guys". I guess that's why I liked it. Because Stark was so unlikable at first. Even now his personality is designed to slightly grate, as that's his one Achilles Heel....his self-defensive overconfidence. But, with Avengers, he learns what it means to go beyond being a good guy, or being selfless, and to make the "hero play" as Captain America calls it.
But, again, I'm not really trying to convince you about Iron Man. I just think you would enjoy the movie experience, as it's one of those blockbuster movies of old. A comic book movie with an Independence Day-level production. Never thought I'd see the day. Or at least, I expected it to be the Justice League...
But what I loved about Tony Stark in the Michelinie/Romita Jr/Layton run was that he was confident without being arrogant. He had loyalty and appreciation for people, those who worked for him, and those who were anonymous but potentially affected by his product. I loved how he refused to manufacture munitions, despite their stated potential to exponentially increase his corporate profits. I loved how he enjoyed the benefits of being enormously rich, the women, etc., but always with the attitude of "I worked hard for this, what the heck, I deserve to enjoy it once in a while."
I loved his disgust for the Roxxon and Brand executives, who had a polar opposite ruthless and exploitative way of doing business. But played in the stories with humor. I recall a scene from a technology convention in issue 145, where Stark met the CEO of Roxxon, and the Roxxon exec said "Here, Stark, have a button." And walks away, with Stark just staring at the Roxxon button. Stark turns in the next panel and tosses it in a garbage can, and says: "Here, garbage can, have a button!"
There was a level of understated humor and humility in Stark in those issues, despite his enormous wealth and global holdings, that really appealed to me. But again, I guess what was exciting for me might be dull to a younger audience in a new era.
Whoa, missed this bit. Did you edit it in? Okay. I think that better explains your feelings. I honestly think that Tony is up to the Tony you know, but I believe RDJ will never play him with that level of genuineness. At least not make it obvious. So, yeah, I can now understand your issue with RDJ in that respect. Fair enough.
Catch Avengers when it hits Netflix or something. I still think you'll like most of it. Especially the end-battle.
The Tony stuff you mention, with guys like Hammer, is showcased in IRON MAN 2, btw. Sam Rockwell plays Justin Hammer. It's fun. Not as good as the first movie. But, good enough.
The Marvel characters as I loved them best, in this 1982 promotional poster for SQ Productions, as advertised in virtually all the Nov 1982 titles for Marvel. I was one of the lucky few who got one in the mail right before SQ Productions went out of business.
To clarify for you, this was Michael Golden pencils and inks, and I think at the absolute peak of his talent.
If you don't already have them, check out these Golden stories from that period: AVENGERS ANNUAL 10 (1981) DR STRANGE 46 (5 pages, Golden/Russell) and 55 (22 pages, and cover) MARVEL FANFARE 1 and 2, and his last great work, issue 47. MICRONAUTS 1-12
These are stories where Golden draws many of the same characters in similarly gorgeous linestyle and color.
The character you mention is Captain Universe as you say, and Golden drew him in Micronauts 8, which as I recall was his origin story.
And while it's not Byrne/Austin, Golden definitely draws the X-Men in a way that's very Byrne-esque, with Wolverine's costume as the one Byrne gave Wolv in the last few X-men issues. That definitely dates this in a particular window of time, Marvel-wise.
Golden did a similar really nice cover for the 1982 X-MEN COMPANION vol 1. With X-men fighting some Sentinels, that's also very poster-worthy. These were fantagraphics books with extensive interviews of Byrne, Claremont, Austin, Louise Jones[-Simonson], Roy Thomas, Neal Adams, etc. Basically all the people who shaped the old and new X-men to that point. Especially interesting was Claremont's behind the scenes look at at the Dark Phoenix storyline, and what might have been if Shooter hadn't mandated as ed-in-chief that she had to die.
Oh, I already own copies of AVENGERS ANNUAL 10 (Rogue) and the Marvel Fanfare 1-5. Can't believe I didn't recognize the Golden artwork. I used to be able to tell artists with a glance. The heavy inking on Storm and Cyclops is what gave me the hint of Byrne, since as you said, that's definitely his style for the time.
Yeah, Captain Universe. For some reason I feel like Steve Ditko did some work for this character? Or someone aping his style?
BTW, does ANYONE know where I can find original copies of THE OFFICIAL MARVEL UNIVERSE DELUXE HANDBOOK from 1985-ish? Not the original versions from the 70's. But, the super-thick ones that Mark Gruenwald made his career off. The ones with all the characters running from left-to-right along the back-to-front covers. God, I loved those. And I sure as fuck cannot find any of them. I think all I have is the issue "G-H". And maybe the one with the black-suit Spider-Man. Anyway, if you know of any, let me know.
Oh, I already own copies of AVENGERS ANNUAL 10 (Rogue) and the Marvel Fanfare 1-5. Can't believe I didn't recognize the Golden artwork. I used to be able to tell artists with a glance. The heavy inking on Storm and Cyclops is what gave me the hint of Byrne, since as you said, that's definitely his style for the time.
Yeah, Captain Universe. For some reason I feel like Steve Ditko did some work for this character? Or someone aping his style?
BTW, does ANYONE know where I can find original copies of THE OFFICIAL MARVEL UNIVERSE DELUXE HANDBOOK from 1985-ish? Not the original versions from the 70's. But, the super-thick ones that Mark Gruenwald made his career off. The ones with all the characters running from left-to-right along the back-to-front covers. God, I loved those. And I sure as fuck cannot find any of them. I think all I have is the issue "G-H". And maybe the one with the black-suit Spider-Man. Anyway, if you know of any, let me know.
Fanfare 1 and 2 were signature Golden work, with golden pencils, inks and colors. Issue 47 was likewise a labor of love, one years in the making, a fight between Spider-man and Hulk, with Nick Fury, SHIELD, and the SHIELD hele-carrier.
Captain Universe was one of Mantlo's creations, and wove through several of his books, including MICRONAUTS and ROM. Ditko did ROM issues 56-75 if I recall, after Sal Buscema left the book after 55 issues. Captain Universe could have turned up in some of those.
I recall also that Ditko did the art on several Captain Universe issues in the MARVEL SPOTLIGHT series (circa 1979-1980), issues 9-11. There's also a really nice Frank Miller story in issue 8 (Captain Marvel).
I really love the 1970's covers on the first independently published magazine-size MARVEL COMICS INDEX series. Great covers by Tim Conrad, Steranko, Bill Everett, Frank Miller, and others.
If you just want to have something, I recommend searching for it on ebay or amazon. While you can get anything there just about, the frustration for me is that it is often negligently packaged, and arrives "ebay-mint", where it was mailed in mint condition and due to poor packing, arrives dented on every corner. It's hit and miss.
Captain Universe was one of Mantlo's creations, and wove through several of his books, including MICRONAUTS and ROM. Ditko did ROM issues 56-75 if I recall, after Sal Buscema left the book after 55 issues. Captain Universe could have turned up in some of those.
I recall also that Ditko did the art on several Captain Universe issues in the MARVEL SPOTLIGHT series (circa 1979-1980), issues 9-11.
I think I sometimes get Mantlo's artwork and Ditko sort of mixed-up. They do similar faces.
I tell you someone that HASN'T lived up to their fathers legacies: John Romita, Jr. and the Kubert Brothers. I don't think either have ever produced artwork I actually enjoy. Certainly not on the level Romita Sr. and Daddy Kubert achieved.
BTW, anyone who has seen AVENGERS: in the Stan Lee cameo, is he playing chess with Romita Sr.? I know the two Romita's popped up in the original X-Men movie. And, Claremont and Byrne both appeared in X3. Also, has anyone heard the rumors that the dancing elderly couple that take center screen in the last two seconds of the Howling Commandos toasting Captain America scene from Cap's movie....is that Joe Simon (Cap co-creator) and his wife? A comic fan was trying to convince me that's who it was, but I can't find anything to corroborate.
Speaking of.....isn't it a fucking SHAME that Jack Kirby never lived long enough to see his characters come to life? Kind of like Bill Finger (co-creator of Batman who died penniless) or the woman who created the DOCTOR WHO theme song. None of them got to benefit from their genius. Not like Bob Kane and Stan Lee, that's for sure.
Al, can you tell me anything about the Joe Simon/Cap cameo. Was that him and the wife dancing? Heard anything about that?
Sorry I missed this one Pro....Ummmm,I haven't heard about it and I checked a couple places and nothing confirmed it was him and his wife so I really don't know if it was or not.Let's say it was unless someone says otherwise.
It's a dog eat dog world & I'm wearing milkbone underwear.
I wish I could find the article that talked about it. It was around when the Cap movie came out, but I'll be damned if I can find it now. Maybe someone was talking out of their ass?
I'm with you, though. Let's say it is until we know otherwise. Because, it gave me a little lump in my throat to see the creator in the context of that moment.
