RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Comic Books Jack Kirby's NEW GODS

Or more completely, his NEW GODS, FOREVER PEOPLE, MISTER MIRACLE, and JIMMY OLSEN.



Needless to say, I love these series. And pull them out once a year or so to enjoy them again. While I like them as Kirby created them,
I find them to have literary/symbolic potential way beyond what Kirby gave us. A pseudo-Biblical clash between good and evil gods,
with Earth as the central battleground. Comparable to spiritual warfare as described in the Judao-Christian Bible.

At various times, each of these 4 series have been my favorite of the bunch.

Orion is the noble but tormented warrior with a dual nature. With Lightray his perfect complement. And Highfather, and Metron, and the
city and planet of New Genesis. I've never sspoken to anyone who didn't read NEW GODS # 7 and love it.

The Forever people are the embodiment of every new generation, and the peace movement/hippie generation in particular.

Mister Miracle is the indomitable human spirit, in addition to being a Steranko/Houdini-like escape artist. In addition his Oliver Twist-like
past in the Orwellian world of Apokalips.

Jimmy Olsen is Kirby's take on the Superman mythology, with a flood of new concepts and worlds, and a seeming cast of thousands. Plus a
fun mixture of humor and action, that to me makes it (in its modest way) representative of everything possible in comics.



And needless to say, Darkseid is arguably the most popular villain in the DC universe.

I still prefer the original, but many have added onto Kirby's mythology in new stories and series.

My favorite conclusion to Kirby's original run was in the Levitz/Giffen LEGION run (1982), issues 287-294. Which I consider
miles above Kirby's own attempt to conclude the series in HUNGER DOGS (1985)



Englehart/Rogers' MISTER MIRACLE revival (later Gerber/Golden/Heath), in 1977-1978.

My least favorite was the Conway/Newton run on RETURN OF THE NEW GODS.

A great one-shot X-MEN/TEEN TITANS crossover in 1982, by Claremont/Simonson/Austin.

Mark Evanier has done a few series with NEW GODS, and special issues of MISTER MIRACLE.

John Byrne.

Walt Simonson's ORION.

Another favorite of mine was a two-issue story in LEGENDS OF THE DC UNIVERSE 22 and 23, by L'Officier/Ladronn, that teamed up Superman
with Dabney Donovan, and sent them to the monster world of Transilvane (revisiting characters from JIMMY OLSEN 142-143).


So what do you all think of Kirby's New Gods run? Or do you prefer another version of the characters by later creators?

There's also several versions of Kirby's original run:
1) the original 1970-1972 runs
2) the 1985 NEW GODS 6-issue Baxter reprint (and HUNGER DOGS conclusion)
3) the black & white trades of NEW GODS, FOREVER PEOPLE and MISTER MIRACLE in 1999-2000. and a 2-volume color JIMMY OLSEN trade
set released in 2002-2003
4) and the 4-volume hardcover set of JACK KIRBY'S FOURTH WORLD in the last few years.

It's nice to have these issues in any form, but I think they've screwed up each of these reprintings, and I'm still waiting for a
definitive collected version.

My ideal would be an EC-library like boxed set, with each series in a separate hardcover.

Never rally liked it (surely Orion and Lightray were a gay couple?). But I did enjoy a Flash/Metron/Lightray team up in the 70s. The wall where gods are strung up in punishment for seeking The Source was an awesome image.

You've never read the "Great Darkness Saga" in LEGION 287-294, by Levitz/Giffen?

Or the X-MEN/TITANS crossover by Claremont/Simonson/Austin?





Even if you don't like Kirby, those are some great stories with the same characters, by non-Kirby hands.
From the last 10 years or so, one of my favorite continuations of Kirby fourth world characters is by Jose Ladronn, in
LEGENDS OF THE DC UNIVERSE 22 and 23.
]


And I'm sure there's a few other expansions that I'm not aware of.

One of the most interesting aspects for me (revealed in a THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR magazine from Two Morrows) is that Kirby while doing
THOR in the late 1960's had wanted to have Ragnarok occur, and from the ashes replace the Asgardians with a generation of New Gods.

So when he left Marvel and created the Fourth World for DC, it is in all but name a continuation of what he wanted to do with THOR.

NEW GODS issue 1 in particular begins with killing of the Old Gods, in a great cataclysmic war destroying their planet, and reforming it
into the two worlds of New Genesis and Apokalips.

Page 1 of NEW GODS 1 (Jan 1971) :




I purchased all the New Gods material in 1978-1979, then later worked my way back to THOR. The first 4 NEW GODS issues are even inked by
Vince Colletta just like THOR!
I think Colletta's best work, by far, is inking Kirby on his THOR run (roughly issues 115-177), particularly in JIM/THOR 120-135 or so.

And there's definitely some continuity of appearance in THOR to these early NEW GODS issues.

Lothar has always wanted to ink Kirby.

If you know what I mean.

If you know what he means tell me,cause I have no idea what he means.

it means you want to, uh, be gay with Kirby.

Dammit Lothar, Kirby is underage.

Perfectly fine if he wants to get all Lightray with another man's Orion.

Dave - no, never read those books. Warren Ellis has a book in which he imagines a conversation with a robot's head programmed with Kirby's psyche, and goes into the details of Kirby's move to DC. There is an oblique reference to the Thor/New Gods connection, from memory.

I never liked his style of drawing. Even the artistic homage in the wacky Godland doesn't appeal to me.

There's a lot of artists who are influenced by Kirby, particularly from this early/mid 1970's period: Keith Giffen, George Perez,
Jose Ladronn, Herb Trimpe, early Barry Smith, etc.

I respect that he's not for everyone. But he certainly is a prolific talent, who has influenced generations of artists after him, and
arguably is the single defining artist who created the parameters of what comics are, particularly Marvel comics, long after his passing.



But I'm more concerned with his New Gods work in particular. I like the archetypal, almost Biblical clash between good and evil, the
clear dichotomy between heroic nobility and cunning pervasive evil. It's both Biblical and Orwellian!

And that's why I ask what version of the characters others here like. Because I realize that while you might NOT like the concepts
as explored by Kirby himself, you might like them more as expanded by other hands.


Like I said, a favorite of mine is the "Darkness Saga" by Levitz/Giffen, that was released fairly recently in hardcover. It's
original in its own right, but also is consistent with Kirby's version.
More so than even Kirby's own efforts to conclde the series, in NEW GODS 6 (1985) and HUNGER DOGS.

The best-written expansion of Kirby's Fourth World that I'm aware of is the 1988 FOREVER PEOPLE 6-issue limited series, By DeMatteis and
Paris Cullens. Particularly issue 5.

It captured well the spiritual warfare of good and evil gods, using earth and its people as the battleground. It's the aspect I like
best, the New Genesis gods constantly inspiring humans to personal achievement and acts of love. While Apokalips gods draw humans into
bitterness, division, war and genocide.

I actually was disappointed with the different direction the Dematteis/Cullins FOREVER PEOPLE miniseries went at the end, in issue 6's conclusion.
But it was still interesting and well-written.

Probably the New Gods story I liked best: the JLA/JSA/New Gods team-up.

Although, Firestorm does somehow manage to turn the Omega Force back onto Darkseid using a plastic Matchbox toy car loop. Which seemed dumb to me even as a 15 year old.

Actually I think he's overage.He's way to old to be sexing it up. He's probably G-man's age or something.

It looks like your boy has confused sex ideas about Kirby. Didn't you have the sex talk with your boy?

Lothar stop talking about having sex with boys.

You're the one with the old man fetish.

they're not that old

That was a good one in many facets.

It was the first issue penciled by George Perez (Dick Dillin, who had penciled over 100 issues, had died very suddenly of a heart attack),
and with the possible exception of a cameo or two in his CRISIS run, is Perez's only work on the New Gods.

It was also the first JLA/JSA/New Gods crossover.

And one of many covers from the brief 1977-1980 period where Starlin had quit Marvel (because of a conflict with Shooter), and did a
number of stories for DC (in LEGION and DC COMICS PRESENTS, and DETECTIVE COMICS 481-482), before returning to Marvel. But for a
long time Starlin would only work with Marvel's Epic line editor Archie Goodwin, and avoided working directly with Shooter.
It was fun to see Starlin as a DC cover artist.

Perez also quit Marvel because of Shooter, and was vocal about his contempt for Shooter in the COMICS JOURNAL in 1980 when he left.

Here's a nice JLA-JSA double page poster by Perez, from JLA 195 (published around the time ALL-STAR SQUADRON began its run).

That's what aI keep telling my wife.

I like Perez art and could look at it more often.

I had the pleasure of meeting George Perez at a comic store appearance he made in 1988.

Beyond being a great artist, he's a very friendly guy.
One of the nicest creators you could hope to meet.

What the hell?

Is this a comics discussion or a NAMBLA meeting?

A double page spread from Perez's post CRISIS two-issue series, HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE.
Where he draws pretty much the entire Fourth World.


This series was not only a nice overview of the post-CRISIS DC Universe,
but also a great portfolio of Perez at the peak of his talent.

Wow.





I thought this Conway/Newton run in 1977-1978 was the lowest point among runs of the NEW GODS.

But apparently, there's a few guys out there who love them enough to photoshop a made-up cover for a collected hardcover.
It's actually a nicer design they came up with than DC's SHOWCASE covers!

Are you looking for a NAMBLA meeting?

What, isn't everybody a Marlon Brando fan?






http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s04e06-cartman-joins-nambla

NAMBLA?

I barely knew ha!

That could be the new hip slang.



"Man, I'd like to NAMBLA the hell out of that girl!"

Sorry to interrupt the one-liners, but this was just too nice not to share:




Pages 2 and 3 of MISTER MIRACLE 7 (1972) by Kirby

Great to see the original art for these. Mark Evanier said somewhere that while Kirby was alive, his Fourth World pages were the
only originals he kept and wouldn't sell. So I'd imagine without the internet, you'd have to pay a very high price to see these.

Wonder Boy, 10/17/13 12:11 AM

Now you know.

"Man, I'd like to NAMBLA the hell out of Mxxy with a mink whip!"




To use the new verb again in a sentence.

This discussion inspired me to go and buy the George Perez JLA collection, which had the two JLA/JSA/New Gods stories drawn by Perez. The dialogue and plot are clearly aimed at 12 year olds (I initally thought it had dated, but then I remembered: back in those days comics were being written for that demographic!) but elements of it is quite cute, notably the Power Girl/Firestorm burgeoning romance, which I'd forgotten.

One nasty scene has a simulcrum of Darkseid made of stone brutalising the three Injustice Society members into submission. It actually looks as if Darkseid is smashing Icicle in the nuts with his giant rock finger.

Gerry Conway's writing on JLA at the time (and on BATMAN and DETECTIVE) were rather juvenile and lowbrow. That was a low point for DC as a whole.
But at exactly the same time, you had Englehart/Rogers doing MISTER MIRACLE (the best post-Kirby Fourth World run of the late 1970's), as well as their collaboration on DETECTIVE COMICS 471-476, Mike Grell's run on WARLORD (particularly that first 14 issues), and several other bits of greatness, such as late-70's DC work by Starlin, O'Neil/Golden, and a few other projects that bucked the trend.

After Carmine Infantino was fired in early 1976, DC replaced him with Jeannette Kahn, whose claim to fame before taking over as head of DC was creating the juvenile-marketed DYNAMITE magazine. So clearly DC selected Kahn with the mindset of expanding younger readership.

That marketing strategy didn't really begin to diminish until Dick Giordano was hired in 1980, and an exodus of talent from Marvel (i.e., from Jim Shooter) to DC, by the likes of Starlin, Wolfman, Perez, Thomas, Colan, Moench, etc., began to revitalize DC and bring a more sophisticated storytelling approach.

On the JLA title you mention, it was interesting how despite Conway remaining on the title, JLA developed in its storytelling while Perez was penciling the book. (The JLA/JSA/New Gods storyline was in 184-185, and the rest of Perez's run was in 186, 192-197 and 200.)

I especially liked a scene with the Flash talking to the JLA in 192 playing with a Rubic's cube in his hands, and he is asked to go to a prison and check the records on a criminal. He tosses the cube in the air, and returns and catches the cube, telling the JLA all the stuff he did in a fraction of seconds!
That was pretty developed and engaging, relative to what Conway was cranking out just a few issues before.


Of the 70's post-Kirby Fourth World stories, one of the best for me was in FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL 13 (April 1976) by O'Neil and Vosburg (out the same month that Kirby departed DC!)
Which was true to Kirby's version, and ironic in many ways, because Kirby was leaving DC over them cancelling the NEW GODS out from under him, and yet here they were publishing a new version, very true to the Kirby version, but by different hands!

I think the Fourth World books were selling well enough in 1972, and DC knew Kirby was planning to bring the Fourth World to a "Ragnarok"-like very final conclusion and kill off the characters. But DC saw these characters as very marketable, and cancelled the titles until Kirby had left DC to prevent him killing them off. And that, not low sales, was the only reason Kirby's titles were cancelled.

so was that JLA story basically the conclusion to Conway's New Gods revival?

A cool image, of every last Kirby Fourth World cover, in order, from October 1970 to March 1974, in the chronological order
they were published.
Every last damn one of them!

Toward the end, DC took Kirby off of JIMMY OLSEN, and cancelled FOREVER PEOPLE and NEW GODS, after issue 11 of both series
And only MISTER MIRACLE survived beyond that from issues 10-18, although DC had Kirby take MM in a new direction, that
abandoned the Fourth World storyline.

I still say the Levitz/Giffen "Great Darkness Saga" in LEGION 287-294 run remains the best conclusion of the Fourth World saga, among many attempts.

That JLA story in 184-185 by Conway/Perez/McLaughlin was unrelated to the Conway/Newton run in NEW GODS. It was just basically the
JLA/JSA annual crossover, in a team-up with the New Gods. who travel to Apokalips to share one adventure together.
(Part 1 in issue 183 was penciled by Dick Dillin who died suddenly, so Perez was called in to do art on parts 2 and 3).

The revived NEW GODS 12-19 run by Conway/Newton (which was cancelled with the DC Implosion) was concluded somewhat unsatisfyingly in ADVENTURE 459-460 by the same Conway/Newton creative team.

One issue I enjoyed was the one-shot that preceded the Conway Newton run that revived the NEW GODS, in FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL 13, by Dennis O'Neil and Mike Vosburg. Nice to see O'Neil's interpretation of the Fourth World characters, with Mike Vosburg art that was
consistent with the Kirby run on the series. Far more so than the then-soon-to-come Conway/Newton run.


The most true to Kirby of that period was the Englehart/Rogers MISTER MIRACLE run in issues 19-22, and the Gerber/Golden run in issues 23-25 (which like the Conway/Newton NEW GODS, was cancelled due to the DC Implosion).
Particularly issue 22.

https://www.blackgate.com/2017/01/21/jack-kirbys-fourth-world-45-years-later/

A nice sampling of Kirby pages from the Fourth World series.



To specifically define Kirby's canonical Fourth World, it ran from Oct 1970-Nov 1972 across:
JIMMY OLSEN 133-139, 141-148
FOREVER PEOPLE 1-11
NEW GODS 1-11
MISTER MIRACLE 1-9

and one last story in MISTER MIRACLE 18, Jan 1974.
(MISTER MIRACLE 10-17 abandoned the Fourth World Storyline and focused on escape artist
adventures, ignoring the Fourth World characters).

(And then, unfortunately, THE HUNGER DOGS in 1985. One of the greatest disappointments
in my almost 50 years of comics reading.)





These two covers for FOREVER PEOPLE 1 and NEW GODS 1 for me encapsulate everything
I love about the Fourth World series.

The series just kept you floored with an endless stream of new characters, new worlds,
wild panoramic landscapes, and secret societies. Like the Wild Area, The Project, Transilvane,
and the Promethean Giants.







Pure adventure, but if you choose to read into it, plenty of symbolism of Biblical/spiritual
warfare between good and evil, and a smattering other gods mythology from across human history.

As expanded on by the likes of Englehart/Rogers, Gerber/Golden, Conway/Newton, Conway/Perez,
Byrne, Claremont/Simonson, and Simonson by himself in the ORION series.
And ultimately for me, Levitz/Giffen in LEGION 290-294.

Even I can acknowledge that the Fourth World canon, even just the Kirby portion, is
fractured and flawed. But still so enjoyable.

I kind of like that it's gone off in so many directions under different hands.
You can pick and choose for yourself what fits your personal definition of "canonical" or not.