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Every time I look back over or update my comics series indexes, I find myself increasingly lamenting the "revolving door" nature of creative team line-ups. It isn't even a matter of this person staying around for a time, and eventually being replaced by that person. I'm talking about books where it sometimes seems IMPOSSIBLE for the editors to have the same people on even 2 issues in a row!
Anybody besides me ever get tired of this kind of thing? Whatever happened to the days when someone would create a series themselves, and because it was theirs, STAY on it all the way? Or if they were getting on an existing book, make it "theirs", and stay on it for as long as possible?
Anyone besides me think the interchangeable nature of US comics creative "teams" is something that's PREVENTING US comics from being looked on as anything remotely approaching a legitimate artform?
I'd have a TON of examples top bring up... but I'd like to see if someone else can come up with some of their own...
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I think it's incredibly sad, especially when you consider how much more creators are paid these days. Siegel and Shuster, the fathers of the greatest comic book character ever, Superman, worked for years on Superman under a pathetic salary(even for that era). Chris Claremont wrote X-Men for decades under similar conditions. Now, with creators raking in six and seven figure profits, a 20 issue run is considered "average", at best.
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The most impressive of current creators are probably Bendis and PAD (especially PAD). I mean, what, Bendis has done USM and Powers for 40-50 issues now, and PAD did Young Justice and Supergirl until they were cancelled. (55 and 80, respectively).
And how long was David on Hulk? 9, 10 years? Amazing.
But yeah, it's crazy how some people don't even stay on books long at all. How many issues did Quietely do on New X-Men? Peh!
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PAD's artists also deserve credit. Todd Nauck and Larry Stucker were on YJ from the very start and missed only a couple of issues each I think (Todd I think had a fill-in on two issues and drew half of another two issues. But he also drew most of the special issues and Secret Origins and stuff), and Leonard Kirk and Robin Riggs were almost continuosly on Supergirl from 11 (I think) up until 75 barely missing a single issue (although Leonard did have a few issues off towards the end of his run coz he had some eye surgery. Oh, and I think he missed an issue for his honeymoon). Whatever that's still at least sixty issues or so each and I don't think either title was ever late. That's the kind of staying power I'd like to see. Odd though that Kirk has now ben dropped from JSA for being late. How he went from being one of the most consistent artists on Supergirl to (apparently) someone who is late often enough for him to be dropped from JSA puzzles me.
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Isn't it an inevitability when you have a character owned by a company in a story with no conclusion, that it will have to have revolving door creators?
Personally, I can empathise: unless you could write a conclusion to a character's story, why would you bother to stick around? Someone else owns it and controls its destiny. You're just the hired gun for plot and dialogue.
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Dave, true, but I guess we're thinking about guys who come and go on a title more often than a fanboy takes a bath ![[wink]](images/icons/wink.gif) . For example, the first Authority series featured Bryan Hitch as the artist for twelve issues. He left and was replaced by Frank Quitely who was only on the title until issue 22 before leaving for New X-Men (two of those issues had fill-in art by someone named Weston, and one was a fill-in issue featuring the creative team from the Monarchy - is that an oxymoron? ). Issues 23-26 had a different artist (Nguyen). 27 and 28 had Art Adams. 29 had another guy named Erskine. The writers changed on the series although less frequently (Ellis on the first twelve issues, Millar on twelve issues, Peyer on issues 23-26, and the Monarchy team on the one mentioned previously).
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quote:
Originally posted by woodstock:
The most impressive of current creators are probably Bendis and PAD (especially PAD). I mean, what, Bendis has done USM and Powers for 40-50 issues now, and PAD did Young Justice and Supergirl until they were cancelled. (55 and 80, respectively).
Powers is at 30, USM at 40(though it has come out at a near bi-weekly pace), but Erik Larsen has been writing and drawing Savage Dragon for over 100 issues straight now, and Dave Sim has been doing Cerebus for....egads, a millenia.
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Okay, I'm gonna use my favorite whipping-boy here: IRON FIST.
IF was created by Roy Thomas-- many don't know this-- as a tribute to the Bill Everett character AMAZING MAN. (Years later, when Roy created a 2nd AMAZING MAN for A.S.S., he gave him the same color scheme as IF-- how's that for a connection?) But Roy, as E.I.C. and CONAN head-honcho was too busy to do a new series himself-- so immediately handed it off to others, who had little idea what to do with it (and I suspect Roy may have plotted out the entire origin and discussed it with the writers who finished it for him).
PREMIERE # 15 -- Thomas / Kane / Giordano
16 -- Thomas & Wein / Hama / Giordano
17 -- Moench / Hama / Giordano
18 -- Moench / Hama / Giordano
19 -- Moench / Hama / Giordano
DEADLY HANDS SPECIAL #1 -- Moench / McLaughlin / Crusty Bunkers
20 -- Isabella / Jones / Green
21 -- Isabella / Jones / Colletta
22 -- Isabella / Jones / Bradford (part 8 / conclusion or origin)
DEADLY HANDS #10 -- Isabella & Kraft / McLaughlin / Nebres
TEAM-UP #31 -- Conway / Mooney / Colletta
23 -- Claremont / Broderick / McLeod
DEADLY HANDS # 18 -- Mantlo / Broderick / Austin
24 -- Claremont / Broderick / Colletta
25 -- Claremont / Byrne / McWilliams
IF # 1 -- Claremont / Byrne / McWilliams
2 -- Claremont / Byrne / Chiaramonte
The last listing was when the series FINALLY settled down to a 'regular" team. Isn't that REDICULOUS??? Len Wein was notorious for not sticking with most things, Doug Moench dropped off because suddenly MASTER OF KUNG FU was a popular as CONAN (and he didn't want to do 2 kung fu series at the same time). But when Doug left, why did Larry Hama, who was so EXCITING (and BRUTAL) leave, along with Dick Giordano, who'd been the only one to do every episode up to that point? Newcomers Tony Isabella & Arvell Jones were a joke-- Tony hadn't figured out how to write yet, and Arvell didn't learn to draw until he got to DC a few years later. The fact that he had 3 inkers in 3 issues made it worse-- and when you went from Green to Colletta to Bradford (my vote for the WORST inker at Marvel in the 70's) it was like watching stock prices PLUMMET. Claremont may have been a perfect fit for the series, as Chris clearly never had a sense of humor, and Pat Broderick's debut blew me away-- Bob McLeod made it more so. But like Jones, he only lasted 3 episodes (one of them the SONS OF THE TIGER team-up) and had 3 inkers in 3 stories-- Mcleod, Austin, Colletta (more plunging stock prices, so to speak). I think at that point they must have been looking for ANYBODY who'd stay on the job-- and newcomer John Byrne got his shot at the "big time" right there, and took it. After 2 issues of terrific inks, they got probably the 2ND-worst inker in the biz to work with him-- wonderful.
After 3 decades, I still like to use this as an example of the worst aspects of Roy Thomas "editorial style". (I'm sure he learned from Stan. Never mind who'd be best suited for a project-- "Who's available TODAY??")
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Was Roy Thomas responsible for this, though? Or was he just trying to cope with a difficult situation? quote:
Originally posted by Snapman:
Dave, true, but I guess we're thinking about guys who come and go on a title more often than a fanboy takes a bath . For example, the first Authority series featured Bryan Hitch as the artist for twelve issues. He left and was replaced by Frank Quitely who was only on the title until issue 22 before leaving for New X-Men (two of those issues had fill-in art by someone named Weston, and one was a fill-in issue featuring the creative team from the Monarchy - is that an oxymoron? ). Issues 23-26 had a different artist (Nguyen). 27 and 28 had Art Adams. 29 had another guy named Erskine. The writers changed on the series although less frequently (Ellis on the first twelve issues, Millar on twelve issues, Peyer on issues 23-26, and the Monarchy team on the one mentioned previously).
Yeah, fair complaint.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Dave Sim has been doing Cerebus for....egads, a millenia.
Heh. It's funny because it's true.
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quote:
Originally posted by Snapman:
Dave, true, but I guess we're thinking about guys who come and go on a title more often than a fanboy takes a bath . For example, the first Authority series featured Bryan Hitch as the artist for twelve issues. He left and was replaced by Frank Quitely who was only on the title until issue 22 before leaving for New X-Men (two of those issues had fill-in art by someone named Weston, and one was a fill-in issue featuring the creative team from the Monarchy - is that an oxymoron? ). Issues 23-26 had a different artist (Nguyen). 27 and 28 had Art Adams. 29 had another guy named Erskine. The writers changed on the series although less frequently (Ellis on the first twelve issues, Millar on twelve issues, Peyer on issues 23-26, and the Monarchy team on the one mentioned previously).
Though, The Authority is probably the most unique of any example. If all had gone as planned, Millar and Quietly would have done their 12 issues, and handed it off to someone else. Everyone was to get a year's crack at the team. Unfortunately, about every creative setback imaginable occurred during it's run.
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"Was Roy Thomas responsible for this, though? Or was he just trying to cope with a difficult situation?"
It always struck me as the difference between someone one creating a series and doing it-- and someone else creating a series, deciding to put it out there, and then after-the-fact, trying to figure out, WHO do we get to do this?
With an existing series that's established a track record, you may have creators who could be intereted in taking it over if a slot opened up. with a brand-new series that hasn't even gotten off the ground yet, it's just absurd for the 2 guys who came up with it to do ONE episode and leave, NEVER to return!
BTW, I'm not sure, but from the still-recent ATLAS issue of COMIC BOOK ARTIST, I believe I discovered that both Larry Hama & Dick Giordano were among those who did work for Martin Goodman & Larry Lieber on their short-lived ABORTION of a comic-book company. Which serves to strengthen the argument that Goodman started Atlas JUST to try and derail Marvel!
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I hate the revolving door creator phenomenon.
Case in point: If Frank Quitely had drawn every issue of Morrison's New X-Men, I would be snapping up the TPBs as fast as Marvel could release them. I'd be camping outside the store for them. I wouldn't even care if Quitely couldn't maintain a monthly schedule, I'd just wait for as long as it took to tell the story. Quality is more important than quantity.
But we get shitty fill-ins (don't get me started on bloody Igor Kordey) instead of consistent art, and so the last couple of TPBs hold little interest for me. Which is a shame, because the story probably kicks arse.
The Ultimates has trouble sticking to a monthly schedule, but it's worth the wait for art the quality of Hitch's. So when the second TPB comes out, I'll be more than happy to spend my cash on it.
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I feel pretty much the same way, Dan.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Though, The Authority is probably the most unique of any example. If all had gone as planned, Millar and Quietly would have done their 12 issues, and handed it off to someone else. Everyone was to get a year's crack at the team. Unfortunately, about every creative setback imaginable occurred during it's run.
If you or anyone could give a synopsis about these setbacks, that would be cool.
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quote:
Originally posted by Snapman:
If you or anyone could give a synopsis about these setbacks, that would be cool.
.....d'oh. I had originally typed them up but thought nobody wanted to hear it so I erased it. Alright, I'll give you the "shorter" version:
Frank Quietly was originally suppose to go through issue 24 with Millar, as I said before. The first problems were with some of Millar's scripts(mostly over the grahpic fight scenes, and over Apollo and Midnighter's ambiguous sexual demeanor, which Millar used primarily as the butt of jokes). This caused Quietly to fall behind on several of his issues(hence Chris Weston doing issues 17 and 18). Finally, Quietly was fed up. He signed a contract with Marvel, and broke off contact with DC. By the time anyone knew Frank was no longer working on the book, he was already several months past his deadline, and in mid story-arc.
So, DC had to find a replacement. They chose Art Adams, knowing fell well that he was about the only guy on the planet that worked slower than Frank Quietly. Additionally, they tapped Brian Azzarello and Steve Dillon as the next creative team for the book, which many were very excited about. Anyway, to give Art time to complete the story, DC decided to have Tom Peyer and Dustin Nguyen(an up and comer in the Wildstorm studio ranks) do a fill in arc, as an interlude. They produced(in my opinion) utter crap, but considering what they had to work with, I can't really blame them. At the time, all looked well.
Then September 11th hit. Suddenly, a lot of what the Authority was regularly displaying(destruction of cities, etc), seemed very inappropriate. Brian Azarello himself later admitted that, in his story, he intended to have various buildings New York destroyed in a fight. He decided that this was now too close to home, so he dropped out of the project, along with Dillon.
Art Adams then became the focus of Authority fans. He had six months to complete two issues, and while he took a month longer than planned, he finally turned in his work, and was quite proud of it. However, DC was not so proud. Aparrently, there were several "last minute changes" that Millar had added into his script, changes that were not included in what he sent to his editors. One scene(which was online at Newsarama at some point a while ago), depicted a villain raping the corpse of Jenny Sparks. This was a little bit too much for DC(especially considering at this time The Authority didn't have a mature readers label), so they asked Art to redo it. As you can probably imagine, Art was furious, and he refused.
So, then DC had to find Adams' replacement. Erksine was a fast worker, and he had worked with Wildstorm in the past as an inker, so he seemed like a solid choice. However, by this time, enthusiasm for the series had dwindled to practically nil, and coupled with the failure of the "Authority Widescreen Special", which was simply shelved prior to completion, DC decided that the franchise was in too hectic a state to continue, so they cancelled the series.
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Yeah, the aforementioned necrophilia scene is implied there.
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That one gave me the creeps.
I like the changed cover of the Commander, sans shield. The must have coincided with the Fighting American case.
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Thanks for the rundown, Animalman. I recently read the entire Authority run and I more or less enjoyed it (I didn't even mind the Peyer fill-in story, even though I was aware it was a fill-in). I was just curious about the fill-in, and why the pencillers came and went towards the end.
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You're welcome. As I said, that was the "shorter" version, I didn't even mention the fiasco that was the Authority Widescreen Special, as I'm still not sure what happened with that. More of the same, probably.
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Another example of something struggling even to get off the ground at all: the 1972 revival of DR. STRANGE (also in MARVEL PREMIERE):
3 -- Barry Smith w/ Stan Lee / Frank Brunner
4 -- Thomas & Goodwin / Barry Smith / Frank Brunner
5 -- Gardner Fox / Irv Wesley / Don Perlin
6 -- Gardner Fox / Frank Brunner / Sal Buscema
7 -- Gardner Fox / Craig Russell / Esposito, Giacoia & Hunt
8 -- Gardner Fox / Jim Starlin / Giacoia & Hunt
9 -- Steve Englehart / Frank Brunner / Ernie Chan
ABSURD, isn't it? It took until the 8th episode before they finally found a "proper" creative team who A)knew what they were doing and B)stuck around. And Frank Brunner only did 9 episodes (blowing deadlines TWICE during that time-- both times caused by the editor suddenly insisting on an "extra" issue shoved into the schedule for the summer season) before he got "bored" and went off to do HOWARD THE DUCK-- which he got "bored" with after only 3 episodes! At least Steve stuck around for the long haul-- until Gerry Conway got in his way to the point where he dropped ALL his Marvel books and went to DC for a year. (Conway may be a nice guy, and have done some decent work over the years, but he still has a LOT to answer for!)
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