Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
OP Offline
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
https://www.worldcomicbookreview.com/2019/11/15/happy-80th-birthday-to-the-sub-mariner/

Just in case you couldn't tell from the article, I've never been overly enthused about this character. He's always struck me as a complete dick.

Remarkable longevity for a complete dick with pointy ears and green underpants, though.

Namor isn't Superman, but this went by without so much as a murmur from Marvel - Marvel's first superhero (when you follow back Marvel's corporate pedigree), published in Marvel Comics #1 in October 1939. A monumental omission. Even the New York Times wrote an article about it. this is especially so since online speculation is that Namor will be the villain in the next Black Panther movie.


Pimping my site, again.

http://www.worldcomicbookreview.com

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Offline
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
Nice article. Well done.
For some reason, I always thought the torch was the first. Maybe because he appeared on the cover of Marvel comics one?

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,843
Likes: 3
Son of Anarchist
15000+ posts
Offline
Son of Anarchist
15000+ posts
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,843
Likes: 3
The fuck are you guys still doing in this forum?


Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
OP Offline
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
A sense of nostalgia. Its almost 20 years since I started posting here. If you're very quiet, you can just about hear the transistors sparking, the gear driven rubber pulleys squeaking, and the pneumatic pumps pushing Rob's bodily fluids about all keeping the board alive.

 Originally Posted By: the G-man
Nice article. Well done.
For some reason, I always thought the torch was the first. Maybe because he appeared on the cover of Marvel comics one?


Thanks.

Hmm, not sure. Marvel didn't make a fuss about the Torch either, thinking about it.


Pimping my site, again.

http://www.worldcomicbookreview.com

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
 Originally Posted By: First Amongst Daves
I've never been overly enthused about this character. He's always struck me as a complete dick.



\:lol\:

Yeah, Namor is always portrayed as having an arrogant sense of superiority to every other character he shares adventures with. He has a disdain for humans, and seems to feel a racial superiority to humanity.

Except for Susan Richards, with whom he always wants to slip the hot beef injection.


To me the quintessential Sub-Mariner artist is Bill Everett, and despite reading Bill Everett stories from the time I began reading comics in 1972 (starting with FEAR 10, Oct 1972), I was unaware at that time in the pre-internet days that Everet had died.
Everett unfortunately died very young in 1973, at the age of 55. He was working on the last of about a year's worth of SUB-MARINER stories for Marvel at the time of his sudden death.

I think I liked Sub-Mariner best in the Lee/Kirby FANTASTIC FOUR issues, and some later appearances by artists like Perez, Buckler, Giffen, Golden and Byrne.
There was a 1988 12-issue SAGA OF SUB-MARINER series by Roy Thomas and Rich Bucker, that despite being all-encompaassing in explaining Namor's continuity and having nice art, I found rather dull.

Reading the issues the character appeared in during Byrne's FF and ALPHA FLIGHT runs, it's ambiguous, but I always read it with the notion that he cuckolded Reed Richards.
So, yeah, something of a dick.


Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29


The term antihero seems to have emerged in the early 1960's. I recall a comment by Psycho author Robert Bloch in a 1967 introduction, saying that a book he had written in the early 1950's came out again in a new edition, and he was surprised in the back-cover summary (written by the publisher) that the protagonist of the story he'd written as a villain, was in the new edition described a decade later as an "anti-hero". That he was disturbed by the slow warping of values over the intervening 10 years displayed in that description.



Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Offline
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
 Quote:
Except for Susan Richards, with whom he always wants to slip the hot beef injection.


In Namor's case, wouldn't that be the hot tuna injection?

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29


I can't say for sure, I'm not an expert on aquatic hard-ons.

So I played it safe and went for the beef allegory.

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29


Back on the subject of Namor as an 80-year-old character, I think Stan Lee did a remarkably good job of bringing Golden Age Timely/Marvel characters into Marvel's 1960's Silver Age:

* Sub-Mariner had multiple good stories in FANTASTIC FOUR (issues 4, 6, 9, 14, 27, 33, and ANNUAL 1) it was only when Namor got his own monthly series that he turned dull, largely for me due to the lackluster Gene Colan art.
* The Golden Age Human Torch (an android) was brought out of mothballs and re-created as the Vision in AVENGERS 57.
* And Captain America frozen for 20 years in a block of ice, and worshipped by Eskimos, a cult viewed with disdain by Namor, so Namor threw him 15 years after freezing in an ice block into the ocean to thaw, where he is pulled out and rescued by the Avengers (in AVENGERS 4 in 1964).

All these are enduring classics in the Marvel canon. (I don't recall Lee's earlier Dec 1953- Oct 1955 attempts to revive these characters ever being reprinted. The 22nd OVERSTREET PRICE GUIDE, 1992, has a great and lengthy 17-page article on that Atlas/Marvel transition period, from 1953-1962)


Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Offline
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
 Quote:
* Sub-Mariner had multiple good stories in FANTASTIC FOUR (issues 4, 6, 9, 14, 27, 33, and ANNUAL 1) it was only when Namor got his own monthly series that he turned dull, largely for me due to the lackluster Gene Colan art.


More than the art, I think the real factor is that Namor has, outside of World War II (when he was battling the Axis), never worked as well as a hero as he does as a villain. Marvel should just admit that fact and make him one of the big-three bad guys in their canon, along with doom and magneto

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 19,415
Likes: 8
brother from another mother
15000+ posts
Offline
brother from another mother
15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 19,415
Likes: 8
I'm surprised Reed and Namor have not fought over Sue. Marvel could call it Ruber Band Man vs Fish Man. Fight of the century right there.


"My friends have always been the best of me." -Doctor Who

"Well,whenever I'm confused,I just check my underwear. It holds most answers to life's questions." Abe Simpson

I can tell by the position of the sun in the sky, that is time for us to go. Until next time, I am Lothar of the Hill People!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
 Originally Posted By: the G-man
 Quote:
* Sub-Mariner had multiple good stories in FANTASTIC FOUR (issues 4, 6, 9, 14, 27, 33, and ANNUAL 1) it was only when Namor got his own monthly series that he turned dull, largely for me due to the lackluster Gene Colan art.


More than the art, I think the real factor is that Namor has, outside of World War II (when he was battling the Axis), never worked as well as a hero as he does as a villain. Marvel should just admit that fact and make him one of the big-three bad guys in their canon, along with doom and magneto



Well that's a possible expanation, that taking Sub-Mariner out of World War II was like taking Dracula out of Transilvania.

I think Namor started to lose it when his adventures focused on Atlantis and palace intrigue, rather than his interactions and reclusive scorn for humans. When the adventures turned to Atlantis, a lot of the compelling mystery of the character evaporated.

That began, I think, when he got a regular monthly feature in TALES TO ASTONISH 70-101, from 1965-1968. Issues 70-85 were mostly by Gene Colan. 86-101 were slightly more interesting with the return of Bill Everett to the series.

Then Namor got his own SUB-MARINER series, which lasted a surprising 72 issues, from 1968-1974. Everett had a part in the series roughly from 50-65, up until his death.



I think some at Marvel saw the same wisdom you did in how to treat Namor, at which point for a while he was featured in SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP.
The character also worked well in DEFENDERS, which is I think where Namor had his longest run, in several series.

The last I read was the Giffen/Dematteis/Maguire run in 2005.



Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29


https://comiconlinefree.com/the-incredible-hulk-1968/issue-_Annual_1998

and the same issue online at:
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Incredible-Hulk-1968/Annual-1998?id=94922


Here's a link to a story in the 1998 INCREDIBLE HULK ANNUAL, that teams Sub-Mariner with the Hulk, with a beautiful wraaparound cover and a lengthy 38-page interior story by Doug Wheatley.

Wheatley has done remarkably little work in comics over the last 30 years or so, but I love a high ratio of what little he's done.
While the whole story is here for your reading pleasure, the wraparound cover is, unfortunately, split in half. You can view the full cover here.



Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
OP Offline
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
 Originally Posted By: the G-man
 Quote:
* Sub-Mariner had multiple good stories in FANTASTIC FOUR (issues 4, 6, 9, 14, 27, 33, and ANNUAL 1) it was only when Namor got his own monthly series that he turned dull, largely for me due to the lackluster Gene Colan art.


More than the art, I think the real factor is that Namor has, outside of World War II (when he was battling the Axis), never worked as well as a hero as he does as a villain. Marvel should just admit that fact and make him one of the big-three bad guys in their canon, along with doom and magneto




Every now and again you get a glimpse of that.

In Avengers: Arena (a terrific comic, notwithstanding its shadowing of the Hunger Games, with some amazing characterisation of what had previously been a D-list villain, Arcade), the writer explains the origin of the Atlantean girl (can't remember her name). As a small child, her parents committed treason and were executed. She is standing in front Namor's throne, maybe 5 years old, with her parents' dead bodies in the background. Namor's guardsmen say, "And what of the girl?" Namor is showing walking to his throne with his back to her, and a hand nonchalantly in the air. "Exile her to the surface," he says without even looking at her.

Supervillain as fuck.


Pimping my site, again.

http://www.worldcomicbookreview.com

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Offline
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
 Originally Posted By: First Amongst Daves

Every now and again you get a glimpse of that.

In Avengers: Arena (a terrific comic, notwithstanding its shadowing of the Hunger Games, with some amazing characterisation of what had previously been a D-list villain, Arcade), the writer explains the origin of the Atlantean girl (can't remember her name). As a small child, her parents committed treason and were executed. She is standing in front Namor's throne, maybe 5 years old, with her parents' dead bodies in the background. Namor's guardsmen say, "And what of the girl?" Namor is showing walking to his throne with his back to her, and a hand nonchalantly in the air. "Exile her to the surface," he says without even looking at her.

Supervillain as fuck.


Hell, yeah. That's a character that would sell a book. It would also help differentiate Namor in the minds of the general public from Aquaman (whom, of course, was a rip off of the Sub-mariner in the first place, but most people don't know that).

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29




Just thought I'd point out, while there wasn't an 80th anniversary celebration, Marvel did publish a SUB-MARINER COMICS: 70th ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Sub-Mariner-Comics-70th-Anniversary-Special/Full?id=130493



I guess they got it out of their system on the 70th anniversary.



Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,843
Likes: 3
Son of Anarchist
15000+ posts
Offline
Son of Anarchist
15000+ posts
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,843
Likes: 3
Namor is a racist fuck who smells like fish.


Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
OP Offline
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
Think he's just a basic fuck.

 Originally Posted By: the G-man
 Originally Posted By: First Amongst Daves

Every now and again you get a glimpse of that.

In Avengers: Arena (a terrific comic, notwithstanding its shadowing of the Hunger Games, with some amazing characterisation of what had previously been a D-list villain, Arcade), the writer explains the origin of the Atlantean girl (can't remember her name). As a small child, her parents committed treason and were executed. She is standing in front Namor's throne, maybe 5 years old, with her parents' dead bodies in the background. Namor's guardsmen say, "And what of the girl?" Namor is showing walking to his throne with his back to her, and a hand nonchalantly in the air. "Exile her to the surface," he says without even looking at her.

Supervillain as fuck.


Hell, yeah. That's a character that would sell a book. It would also help differentiate Namor in the minds of the general public from Aquaman (whom, of course, was a rip off of the Sub-mariner in the first place, but most people don't know that).


There's defiitely a Dr dom vibe to him.

Anyway, given over in X-Men all of the villains (Apocalypse, Mr Sinister, Magneto) save for Sabretooth have been rehabilitated, a switch going the other way might be a weighing up of the scales. As a mutant Namor was invited to join the other mutants on Krakoa, but told Xavier and Magneto to go fuck themselves.


Pimping my site, again.

http://www.worldcomicbookreview.com

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29


Another great two part story with Sub-Mariner is in IRON MAN 120-121, a story that protrays Namor sympathetically, despite his general scorn for humans.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Iron-Man-1968/Issue-120?id=19327


The IRON MAN run in 115-156, by Michelinie/Romita Jr./Layton is one of my favorite runs, that ran concurrent with the Claremont/Byrne/Austin X-MEN run. And IRON MAN was my favorite in that period, even over that great X-MEN run.

Among many other great runs in that era, such as Stern's DOCTOR STRANGE 46-73, Duffy/Gammill/Villamonte's POWER MAN IRON FIST 48-84, Mantlo/Hannigan's SPECTACULAR SPIDERMAN 60-72, Shooter/Perez and Michelinie/Byrne's AVENGERS 141-202, Moench/Sienkiwicz MOON KNIGHT 1-30, Moench/Day's MASTER OF KUNG FU 102-120, Mantlo/Golden and Mantlo/Broderick MICRONAUTS 1-12, qnd 19-36, EPIC ILLUSTRATED 1-34 and BIZARRE ADVENTURES 20-34, plus many others.


Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
OP Offline
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002.
15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 1
 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy



Just thought I'd point out, while there wasn't an 80th anniversary celebration, Marvel did publish a SUB-MARINER COMICS: 70th ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL.

http://12comic.com/issue.jsp?id=190227041029io2w&cu=0



I guess they got it out of their system on the 70th anniversary.




Sorry, I missed this comment.

Well, that is weird. I wonder why they made no fuss for the character's 80th?


Pimping my site, again.

http://www.worldcomicbookreview.com

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29



My guess, Australia-Dave, is that Roy Thomas has for 50 years been the guiding force in keeping Sub-Mariner's legacy alive. And that Thomas is getting up in the years and left it at this point for others to carry on, and no one picked up the torch to do so.




Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29


Here's a link to SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP 8, Oct 1976, by Englehart and Giffen, that teams up Sub-Mariner with Doctor Doom, that seems to me the most logical of pairings. This is the last issue by Englehart, and Giffen did this issue and issue 13.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Super-Villain-Team-Up/Issue-8?id=100918

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Super-Villain-Team-Up/Issue-13?id=100907

An uneven run by multiple writer and artist teams, but a sample of what's possible teaming Sub-Mariner and Doom.

Englehart did a long run with Sub-Mariner in the first 11 issues of THE DEFENDERS in 1972-1973, that I thought were consistently well-written.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Defenders-1972/Issue-1?id=54189




Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Offline
Officially "too old for this shit"
15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951
Likes: 6
 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy



My guess, Australia-Dave, is that Roy Thomas has for 50 years been the guiding force in keeping Sub-Mariner's legacy alive. And that Thomas is getting up in the years and left it at this point for others to carry on, and no one picked up the torch to do so.





Roy hasn’t been with Marvel for 30 years, has he?

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29


Roy Thomas left the first time in 1980 (Shooter related). I don't know exactly when he returned to Marvel. That I can recall, he did a 12-issue SAGA OF THE SUB-MARINER series with Rich Buckler in 1988-1989.

And then the Sub-Mariner 70th anniversary issue discussed earlier in the topic. So that shows Thomas at least doing sporadic work for Marvel as recently as 10 years ago.

For some reason, my local comics dealer said the older comics writers and artists are not offered work by the big two publishers and have trouble getting work, and they kind of struggle. Which is really awful, because guys like Wein, Wolfman, Thomas, O'Neil and Moench are the ones who largely built the industry in the 1970's and 1980's as the continuity and characters largely remain. Even the editorial leadership at Marvel might not have jobs, if not for Roy Thomas.



Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,933
old one eye
2500+ posts
Offline
old one eye
2500+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,933
Meh. He's just a grumpy version of Aquaman. I never found him to be that interesting.


How you doin'?
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Offline
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
Never read much with him in it other than Invaders where there wasn’t a lot of personality. Sort of tempted to check out Byrne’s solo series that has been collected in an Omni recently where I’m guessing he had more of his character developed.


Fair play!
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Offline
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy


Roy Thomas left the first time in 1980 (Shooter related). I don't know exactly when he returned to Marvel. That I can recall, he did a 12-issue SAGA OF THE SUB-MARINER series with Rich Buckler in 1988-1989.

And then the Sub-Mariner 70th anniversary issue discussed earlier in the topic. So that shows Thomas at least doing sporadic work for Marvel as recently as 10 years ago.

For some reason, my local comics dealer said the older comics writers and artists are not offered work by the big two publishers and have trouble getting work, and they kind of struggle. Which is really awful, because guys like Wein, Wolfman, Thomas, O'Neil and Moench are the ones who largely built the industry in the 1970's and 1980's as the continuity and characters largely remain. Even the editorial leadership at Marvel might not have jobs, if not for Roy Thomas.




I wonder if a lot of ageism is involved there by the industry in general? On the other hand some writers became less of a draw for me. Thomas’s All Star Squadron was enjoyable to me but Infity Inc. not as much even though I really liked Power Girl and Star Spangled Kid. Paul Levitz last run on the Legion was really disappointing also. On the other hand I can’t think of to many new writers back when I was actively reading new titles that really enthralled me.


Fair play!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
Never read much with him in it other than Invaders where there wasn’t a lot of personality. Sort of tempted to check out Byrne’s solo series that has been collected in an Omni recently where I’m guessing he had more of his character developed.


The SAGA OF SUB-MARINER series I linked to all 12 issues above. So you don't even have to buy them.


I also linked to a Michelinie and Romita Jr/Layton IRON MAN 120-121 story that I thought was especially good.

And the 1998 HULK annual I linked above, with Doug Wheatley art, a story that also plays up to the more interesting aspects of the character.

And the 1972 DEFENDERS run by Englehart and Sal Buscema is another well-written run that includes Sub-Mariner.


Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29

 Originally Posted By: M E M
I wonder if a lot of ageism is involved there by the industry in general? On the other hand some writers became less of a draw for me. Thomas’s All Star Squadron was enjoyable to me but Infity Inc. not as much even though I really liked Power Girl and Star Spangled Kid. Paul Levitz last run on the Legion was really disappointing also. On the other hand I can’t think of to many new writers back when I was actively reading new titles that really enthralled me.


I really enjoyed ALL STAR SQUADRON, especially the Buckler issues (1-5) and the Adrian Gonzales/Ordway issues (roughly 6-20). And the ALL STAR SQUADRON ANNUAL 1 that ties together the origins of the Golden Age Atom, the Guardian (from Newsboy Legion), and Wildcat was a terrific story, that showed off what Roy Thomas does best with refining existing continuity into something even better.
I also enjoyed Thomas' YOUNG ALL STARS run. Like you, I was not as fond of the INFINITY INC run. To me the INFINITY INC run was more trendy 1980's and not enough Golden Age, like the other two runs were.
I also enjoyed Thomas' 50-issue ARAK run.
And Thomas over many single issues of SECRET ORIGINS (1986-1990) also did individual origins for most of the JSA characters, most of them by Michael Bair, so nicely illustrated. In a few issues of DC COMICS PRESENTS, Thomas also did some nice stuff with the Shazam family characters, that also loosely relates to the Golden Age DC characters.

I see what you're saying about the age-discrimination with older creators, and that's probably what plays into it. They wrote with a voice that resonated for readers in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's, and arguably that era has passed, and isn't as relatable to the new generation of readers. I pretty much feel the same way about the new writers, they don't write material that relates to me as a reader, and I've largely stopped buying new material.
Stuff by older creators, like HELLBOY, GROO, various new work by Craig Russell, Walt Simonson, Paul Smith and a few others are ften othe only new books I buy, and only occasionally. I mostly buy back issues and collected editions. One time while talking to John Morrow of Two Morrows publishing, another guy joined our conversation and said of reading Morrow's line of magazines and books: "I find I read more about comics than actual comics these days." I can relate to that.

The last new story I read by Roy Thomas was an Elseworlds, JLA: ISLAND OF DR MOREAU, with art by Steve Pugh, that I really enjoyed.



Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Offline
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy
 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
Never read much with him in it other than Invaders where there wasn’t a lot of personality. Sort of tempted to check out Byrne’s solo series that has been collected in an Omni recently where I’m guessing he had more of his character developed.


The SAGA OF SUB-MARINER series I linked to all 12 issues above. So you don't even have to buy them.


I also linked to a Michelinie and Romita Jr/Layton IRON MAN 120-1121 story that I thought was especially good.

And the 1998 HULK annual I linked above, with Doug Wheatley art, with a story that also plays up to the more interesting aspects of the character.

And the 1972 DEFENDERS run by Englehart and Sal Buscema is another well-written run that includes Sub-Mariner.


Thanks WB, I’ll check those out since I think we tend to like a lot of the same comic runs. I’m actually part way through Defenders Masterwork Volume 6 and not quite to where Subby pops back up. It’s my first one as it contains the first issue I picked up as a kid that had Ms. Marvel guest starring. They were to me kind of what a lot of DC Vertigo titles would be. Strange and offbeat with less mainstream superheroes.


Fair play!
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Offline
Fair Play!
15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,792
Likes: 40
 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy



 Originally Posted By: M E M
I wonder if a lot of ageism is involved there by the industry in general? On the other hand some writers became less of a draw for me. Thomas’s All Star Squadron was enjoyable to me but Infity Inc. not as much even though I really liked Power Girl and Star Spangled Kid. Paul Levitz last run on the Legion was really disappointing also. On the other hand I can’t think of to many new writers back when I was actively reading new titles that really enthralled me.


I really enjoyed ALL STAR SQUADRON, especially the Buckler issues (1-5) and the Adrian Gonzales/Ordway issues (roughly 6-20). And the ALL SWTAR SQUADRON ANNUAL 1 that ties together the origins of the Golden Age Atom, the Guardian (from Newsboy Legion), and Wildcat was a terrific story, that showed off what Roy Thomas does best with refining existing continuity into something even better.
I also enjoyed Thomas' YOUNG ALL STARS run. Like you, I was not as fond of the INFINITY INC run. To me the INFINITY INC run was more trendy 1980's and not enough Golden Age, like the other two runs were.
I also enjoyed Thomas' 50-issue ARAK run.
And Thomas over many single issues of SECRET ORIGINS (1986-1990) also did individual origins for most of the JSA characters, most of them by Michael Bair, so nicely illustrated. In a few issues of DC COMICS PRESENTS, Thomas also did some nice stuff with the Shazam family characters, that also loosely relates to the Golden Age DC characters.

I see what you're saying about the age-discrimination with older creators, and that's probably what plays into it. They wrote with a voice that resonated for readers in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's, and arguably that era has passed, and isn't as relatable to the new generation of readers. I pretty much feel the same way about the new writers, they don't write material that relates to me as a reader, and I've largely stopped buying new material. Stuff by creators like HELLBOY, GROO, various new work by Craig Russell, Walt Simonson, Paul Smith and a few others are the only new books I buy, and only occasionally. I mostly buy back issues and collected editions. One time while talking to John Morrow of Two Morrows publishing, another guy joined our conversation and said of reading Morrow's line of magazines and books: "I find I read more about comics than actual comics these days." I can relate to that.

The last new story I read by Roy Thomas was an Elseworlds, JLA: ISLAND OF DR MOREAU, withg art by Steve Pugh that I really enjoyed.


I did enjoy Thomas’s Secret Origins too. Definitely also can relate to the whole “reading more about comics than actual comics”. It’s now about nostalgia for me as I get older, lol.


Fair play!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Offline
brutally Kamphausened
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,971
Likes: 29



Some I appreciate more than ever, when I re-read them. Others, like for example the O'Neil/Adams GREEN LANTERN/GREEN ARROW, while mixed with moments of greatness, some of the dialogue is pretty groanworthy.

The Roy Thomas material for the most part stands up pretty well in the modern era. Especially his CONAN THE BARBARIAN and SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN runs.
I like Thomas' JSA books. I understand Thomas did the same at Marvel for THE INVADERS, but I haven't read that series.
I think Thomas was blessed with much better artists on the DC side, with ALL STAR SQUADRON and YOUNG All-STARS. Even for our mutual disinterest in INFINITY INC., that's still the series that launched Todd McFarlane's pro work and career. And another lesser known guy I like named Vince Argondezzi.

On the "reading more about comics these days than actual comics" I really like the COMIC BOOK ARTIST magazine, and have almost every issue. They were more sporadically published toward the end. Some great interviews and insights. I love the lengthy conversational interviews with writers and artists. I learned a lot about series I thought I already knew very well.
There was a funny recollection by Don McGregor regarding the AMAZING ADVENTURES/Killraven series, where McGregor had a "salt and pepper" thing he was doing developing a romance between M'Shulla and Carmilla Frost, and Marvel's editors were nervous that if they were too overt about it, it might cost them distribution in the Bible-belt South. So lo and behold, suddenly Marvel gets a letter praising the M'Shulla/Carmilla romance developing, by a Protestant minister! Many years later, McGregor admits in the interview that the letter was fake, that he himself wrote it, to sooth Marvel management, so that he could fully develop the inter-racial romance, that culminated in an inter-racial kiss between the two characters in issue 31.






Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5