RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Canada to Allow Same-Sex Marriage

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Originally posted by BigOl'Willie:
Matt, this isn't the Texas Supreme Court that held this. It was the federal supreme court overruling a Texas statute.

We get no "credit" for this down here in Texas.

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:

MY posts aren't worth responding to, dear Wonder Davey? Well, I feel the same way about the tiresome, devisive tripe that's coming out of your repulsive blow-hole as well. But since Typhoid Dave is handing you your ass debate-wise ...

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The high ratio of insults in your posts, coupled with the absolute vaccuum of anything meaningful you have to say, make every debate I've seen you jump into devolve to a foodfight of insults that derails any meaningful and intelligent discussion.
Insults and nonsense that your last several posts, including what's quoted above, demonstrate quite well.

I think it's for others to decide if Dave is"handing [me] my ass debatewise..."
I think I'm holding my own quite well, as are several others. While I respect Dave's alternative perspective, I don't think he or anyone else has come anywhere close to disproving what I've said here.

I have no animosity toward Dave.
I definitely do toward you. You contribute nothing worthwhile to these or any other debates, beyond hurling insults and egging people on toward ugliness who share your liberal views.

I'd rather talk to the grown-up liberals here, who can intelligently and respectfully express their views.

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Dave, you have got to be one of the most sickening, self-righteous, paranoid cry-babies that I've ever "met" on-line--- quite an accomplishment when you think of the sheer number of cyber-goofballs out there. I tip my hat to you, sir: you RAWK.

RE: My high ratio of insults: What can I say? Poking large, ugly, stupid animals with a sharp stick is just ever so much fun.

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Originally posted by Batwoman:
And since it's not obvious from his posts, he is a Christian, as everyone knows so am I and I agree with every thing he's said.

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Originally posted by Matter-eater Man:
Batwoman a couple of pages back DWB said "As I said, I believe that it is a compulsion, an impulse, not inborn, and that it can be resisted, and virtually eliminated. There are many Christians who were practicing gays and lesbians, who are now happily married heterosexuals.
So for some at least, perhaps all, homosexual desire can be overcome and eliminated. Not repressed, but just eliminated as a desire by a change in goals, perspective and priorities.
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Granted he doesn't say anything about an Institute. It does match their litrature though & I was going by memory. My mistake. So where does he get his conclusions though? I don't know any reformed homosexuals myself, I do know some self hating ones though or ones that had a long struggle with it. A result of a strict religous background IMHO

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

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Originally posted by Dave:
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Nope. Only one of those examples is intended to be a "past transgression". You can be a practicing criminal, or an on-going drug abuser, and still get married in a Chritian church by giving a solemn oath to God.

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I highly doubt this scenario, Dave. This borders on a charicature of Christianity, and resembles true Christian marriage in no church I've attended. A pastor in any church I've attended meets with couples and counsels them to see if they're ready for marriage. A criminal or drug user would be advised to delay marriage until he/she has proven stable enough to reasonably commit to marriage.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave:

Homosexuality has no victims. It is on the same level as being black or white, a Pistons fan or a Lakers fan, a drinker of beer or of wine. You can choose to love a man, or a woman, or both. There is no harm to anyone. I know gays who have contributed to society in many positive ways, who are successful in their fields, who are leaders in the community.

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I strongly disagree. Being black or Asian is not the same.

Being gay is not a racial trait that one can be singled out for and harassed for. And besides, the argument has been made by any number of politicians and political groups that gays have a higher average income than any minority or group, including white heterosexual males. So much for persecution.
Some gays are noticeably effeminate, many are not. Some heterosexual men are effeminate, but are not homosexual. Many who have admitted to me they are gay, I would never have guessed it. Unless a gay person makes known that they are gay, it would be very difficult to discriminate. But regardless, they are not a bonafide minority.

Being gay is not a racial or otherwise easily distinguishable physical trait. It is a behavior. As I said, it is an obsession. I would compare it most closely to being a foot fetishist, or having a fetish for women's stockings, women's underwear, for lingerie, for cross-dressing, being a compulsive gambler, or an alcoholic, or to use another sexual example, a pedophile.
It is an obsession. And you don't give someone special minority status for a compulsion or sexual behavior.
( I can envision special minority status for men who wear women's underpants. Robin can be their poster-boy. Break out the green panties... )

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Originally posted by Danny:

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:
I agree. (We think so alike that we must have been separated at birth, Danny--- maybe a wild pack of Australian Dingoes carried me away as a baby and then I was found and adopted by American tourists on vacation in the land of OZ? )

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Ah, but were that me, I would have then turned around and cooked and eaten the dingo. Whereas you would just break out some pink wool and knit a nice little dingo sweater. Then eat a salad.
Such is the major difference between us two...

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

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Originally posted by Danny:
Because to discriminate against someone simply because god/evolution/gamma radiation or whatever made them born different is wrong.

DaveTWB, you're attracted to women. Did you make the choice to be so? Did you look at some chicks, then look at some dudes, and gp 'eenie, meenie, minie... boobies!'? Or is it just the way you are, and you can't imagine yourself being any other way?

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Again, this has already been covered abundantly, but you choose to not read my previous posts.

If I lusted after 12-year-old girls, or had an inborn impulse to rape women, or to kill people, would I have a right to act on those impulses because it's an inborn part of my identity?
No. Of course not.

I again stand by what I said earlier, that homosexuality is an impulse, a compulsion, an obsession, that can be controlled, redirected, or even eliminated.

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

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Originally posted by klinton:
And Dave...can't you see, despite all of your arguments as to what the Bible says on the matter, that this discrimination is just plain wrong? I mean, you show these glimmers of being a sensetive, normal guy and then top it off with such venom and contempt.

I mean, if you were really so worried about the sanctity of marriage, wouldn't you become a marriage counselor? It seems to me that 'straight' people - christian and otherwise - don't really view it with any sort of divine respect, what with the 50% divorce rate and all....

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As I've said repeatedly, related to the Bible, I've only repeated what it says.
One man's "venom" is another man's facts. Sorry you don't see it that way. The anarchy in our culture seems pretty evident to me.

The divorce thing has already been mentioned. It's largely a result of popular culture, and lack of commitment bred from bombardment of messages selling instant gratification. That's your secular culture at work, undermining Christian ideals, commitment and fidelity, saying that every kind of "alternative lifestyle" is okay. Of which gay culture has no small hand. But if we object to the obvious moral ambiguity that is causing it, we're "narrow-minded" and "homophobes". A rose by any other name...

I don't dislike gays as people, I think they're good people who have bought into a belief system and lifestyle that a few decades ago any individual would have just snapped out of, and gotten on with their life. And looked back 20 years later, sitting next to their wife, and said; Geez, what a crazy idea that was...

Whereas now there's a huge movement that pushes for all kinds of twistings of our traditions, and rights for the 2% or so who are gay (and even THAT number seems incredibly high to me), and stomp on the traditions of the other 98% of the population who aren't gay.

Do you REALLY think that's not going unsettle and piss off a lot of people?

I really don't see why gays need marriage, other than to annoy conservatives nationwide. Will it really win any more respect from the mainstream for gay marriage? Or will it just be something where a vast percentage of that 98% heterosexual majority will just roll their eyes and say "whatever..."

I mean, why not just live together? Many heterosexual couples do. And they don't pretend God or the Bible sanctions their doing so.

Gays would serve their cause better by not rubbing their abberrant sexuality in the rest of our faces. It's just gross to me, I don't even want to think about it. I feel no hostility toward gays, let them do whatever they want behind closed doors.
But force me to look at it, and to see laws passed that undermine the definition of marriage as it has existed for 6,000 years, and twists the very meaning of the Bible itself... well, you've crossed the line of what you can do in your own home, and tried to pervert what is sacred to me. Just so you can rationalize your own lifestyle.

And hell yes, I have a problem with that.

I've offered explanations, clear and indisputable, but you clearly won't accept anything other than YOUR VERSION of the truth (which is to say, a lie that rationalizes homosexuality) despite all logic to the contrary. Well, don't expect me to endorse your lie.

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

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Originally posted by Wednesday:

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

...I've offered explanations, clear and indisputable, but you clearly won't accept anything other than YOUR VERSION of the truth (which is to say, a lie that rationalizes homosexuality) despite all logic to the contrary. Well, don't expect me to endorse your lie.

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That was rather inappropriate, don't you think?

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I'm not sure I get your meaning, Wednesday.

I've offered several topic pages of quotes and explanations, and I can't seem to get the slightest acknowledgement of what the words in the Bible clearly say... is CLEARLY WHAT THEY SAY !

It took a lot of time to find and post thiose passages. And for what?

I feel the clear validity of my points (of what the Bible and Christian teachings clearly say about homosexuality) is being deliberately ignored.
I guarantee when the current legislation has undermined Christianity as I predicted, that no one will be arguing the rights of Christians to their beliefs and lifestyle.

And by the way, I haven't threatened anyone. klinton has.

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klinton:

And if you ever mention pedophilia in the same breath as homosexuality again, I will hunt your arrogant ass down. I am sick to death of that. There is no possible connection, other than the ones your twisted sense of superiority has drawn.

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So much for civility.

My "twisted sense of superiority" is supported by the words of Justice Scalia. And no doubt millions of other displeased Americans.

My position makes ideological sense. Yours only bends the truth to rationalize your lifestyle.

I've stuck to the issue, and resisted namecalling. Many on the liberal side of this topic have not.

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Originally posted by klinton:

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
Gays would serve their cause better by not rubbing their abberrant sexuality in the rest of our faces. It's just gross to me, I don't even want to think about it. I feel no hostility toward gays, let them do whatever they want behind closed doors.
But force me to look at it, and to see laws passed that undermine the definition of marriage as it has existed for 6,000 years, and twists the very meaning of the Bible itself... well, you've crossed the line of what you can do in your own home, and tried to pervert what is sacred to me. Just so you can rationalize your own lifestyle.

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*thunk* (Klint engages in the infinitely more productive activity of slaming his head into a wall).

As I said in I think the very first reply i gave to you, it's not about 'getting respect'. I don't want your respect, or even your approval. What I do want is to know that if I'm in the hospital, my boyfriend will be allowed at my bedside. What I do want is to be confident that if I died tomorrow, my boyfriend would unquestionably inherit my estate. What I want is the satisfaction that I am not a second class citizen, subject to the whims of people like you. Fine, you feel that Christ hates me. That's your perogative. That is still no justification for treating me as an invalid member of society.

I don't want to shove anything in your face any more than you'd want to shove your life in mine. Quite frankly all of the 'abberhant' sexuality that goes along with my life is my buisness....I think I'd be more disgusted if you were wittness to it than you ever could be. :)

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

I'm not sure I get your meaning, Wednesday.

I've offered several topic pages of quotes and explanations, and I can't seem to get the slightest acknowledgement of what the words in the Bible clearly say... is CLEARLY WHAT THEY SAY !

It took a lot of time to find and post thiose passages. And for what?

I feel the clear validity of my points (of what the Bible and Christian teachings clearly say about homosexuality) is being deliberately ignored...

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I WAS GOING to comment that you had clearly underminded the views of others, and treated those views as less than your own simply because they disagree. I WAS GOING to say that your views are simply a belief stacked on a belief, no more or less important than klinton's, Big's, Dave's, or anyone else's. Even mine .

But having read the last page and a half and reread a good portion of this thread, I wouldn't dare. Both sides (myself included) are guilty as charged. For what it's worth, though, despite the fact that I disagree with you almost 100%, I do appreciate what you've said. You're obviously educated and have made strong points. I'm not ignoring your points, I'm simply taking the time to absorb what's been said (the point of debate, IMHO) and sort my thoughts. I will TRY to not make another half-assed, incomplete dispute of the Bible or your religious beliefs. I do respect them.

Now if you'll excuse me, it's Friday night and this holier-than-thou ex-Christian needs to partake in some good ol' fashion debauchery.

Oh, and we made the board's front page (yay us!), so at least we can agree that we disagree well.

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
Poor DTWB is being hit pretty hard of late. I think I might have said a few more inflammatory things than him, in which case I would like to apologize if I offended anyone while stating that I am holding to my convictions as well. I am not going to post too much this weekend, as I hurt my shoulder at work today, but I might be in and out of here to say a few things. Have a good weekend.

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Cap'n and Big Willie: Wonder Dave is a big boy. I'm sure he can take care of himself.

Wonder Dave is also a gigantic asshole on legs, in my opinion. To waste time wiping his nose for him is just that--- a waste of time. Believe me, I'm VERY familiar with this goofy, long-winded joker having listened to his endless blather over on the old DC messageboards. (And take it from me, he absolutely LOVES playing the martyr--- the last thing Dave wants is to come down from the cross, gang. )

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The Economic and Social Council also began discussion of the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS. Peter Piot, Executive Director noted that ten years or more had been stripped from life expectancy in the worst-affected countries, and that a 10 per cent HIV rate caused an annual loss of around 1 per cent of a country's GDP. Such effects were cumulative. It had been estimated, for example, that by the beginning of the next decade South Africa's GDP would be 17 per cent less than it would have been without AIDS.

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According to World Health Organization (WHO) reports, Africa
is still the major area most affected by the AIDS epidemic (Mertens
and others, 1994). As of the beginning of 1994, nearly two thirds
(about 9 million adults) of all cumulative cases of HIV infection
have occurred in Africa. However, the epidemic is expanding
rapidly in some parts of South and South-eastern Asia and, if the
current rate of infection continues, the annual number of new
infections in Asia is expected to surpass that of Africa. WHO
estimates that there were more than 2 million AIDS cases in Africa
as of the end of 1993, constituting about 67 per cent of the total
cumulative number of cases in the world. Thirteen per cent
occurred in the United States, 12 per cent in Latin America and the
Caribbean, and 5 per cent in Europe. Because the epidemic started
relatively recently in Asia, only 2 per cent of the AIDS cases in
the world occurred in Asia.

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Originally posted by Matter-eater Man:
MK, you just enjoy poking things period :)

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Originally posted by Batwoman:
You're one to talk MK. Have you read the crap you've been spewing? You came into this thread that was going well, and just insulted people left and right. Picking on certain people you obviously hate. So why are you even here? Why not go harrass someone who actually gives a care? You're contributing nothing to this thread.

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Settle down, Churchie McChurchenstein. I don't "hate" dear ol' Dave--- I just think he's a wrong-headed, bullying, self-righteous windbag. That's all. Other than that I'm sure he's a real peach of a human being.

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
Be careful, Matt. Rob doesn't check this forum as often as some of the others, but you're flirting with getting some of your posts deleted at the very least. Not only are you making personal attacks on individuals, you are attacking Christianity itself. Distinctly not an advisable course of action.

I don't care what your motivation or your agenda is. In this particular thread, you have breached just about every rule of MB etiquette there is. So, you find DTWB's statements offensive - which justifies your far more offensive statements against the whole lot of posters who don't agree with you? I don't think so.

I am genuinely trying to be patient here. On the other threads you post in, you're generally pretty reasonable. I'm not sure what happened in this thread. Klinton, Matter-Eater Man, and the other posters who support legalizing gay marriage have been for the most part understanding, or at least polite. You, on the other hand...

Well, it's a good thing I opted to moderate the Video Games forum instead of Deep Thoughts/Issues, because I probably would have deleted half your posts in this thread. A lot of other people would have banned you outright. But hey - I guess I'm a nice guy.

Watch your mouth.

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Originally posted by Pig Iron:
Matt, tolerance is a double-edged sword. Any person straight, gay, lesbian, bi, etc that is pro homosexual rights demands tolerance for the most part (I don't want to generalize too much). At the same time people like you offer none. You just wan to take and take and take. From your perspective homosexuals deserve the rights that are inalienable. Fine, I have no problem with that regardless of my religious beliefs.

People who act as you have been doing are a stain on positive conversation, action and debate...and nothing positive comes of it. Do you ever wonder why Israel and Palestine have never settled their differences? It's because of people who think and act exactly as you do. Demanding tolerance, demanding this, taking that..but never, never offering the same in return. Why should anyone who thinks even more strongly than I do or Dave does even bother discussing anything with anyone as curmudgeonly as you are? It won't get them anywhere, their negative opinions will be reinforced and ultimately do more harm than good (especially in the general populace).

Matt, homosexuals will get marriage and even more proteceted civil-rights, etc. But guess what, there won't be a wellspring of positivity from middle America. And it won't be something that middle America wants. It will be granted by the government, and much like slavery will be forced upon the common people. When the government forced the abolition of slavery down the american citizen's throats it took generations for it to set in properly (although the history books you have read may not tell that tale)..in fact it did more lasting harm than good. The same will happen with the homosexual rights issue. Martin Luther King did more in a decade to heal the wounds of generations by speaking of understanding, common sense, tolerance and inalienable rights than any that had come before. Because he was accepted by the common American, because they eventually related to his message..because of his demeanor and the compassion he exuded as a leader.

Matt, you will bring disdain upon yourself and those you are seeking to help because you end up looking as ridiculous trying to advance homosexual ideals as Jerry Falwell does advancing Christian ideals. The joke is only as funny and successful as the delivery, and your delivery is neither effective or eloquent.

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But I'm NOT Martin Luther King, Pig Iron. I'm just a mere mortal who doesn't suffer fools well.

And no one in the history of mankind has ever looked/sounded as ridiculous as Jerry Falwell. Just sayin'...

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
Be careful, Matt. Rob doesn't check this forum as often as some of the others, but you're flirting with getting some of your posts deleted at the very least. Not only are you making personal attacks on individuals, you are attacking Christianity itself. Distinctly not an advisable course of action.

I don't care what your motivation or your agenda is. In this particular thread, you have breached just about every rule of MB etiquette there is. So, you find DTWB's statements offensive - which justifies your far more offensive statements against the whole lot of posters who don't agree with you? I don't think so.

I am genuinely trying to be patient here. On the other threads you post in, you're generally pretty reasonable. I'm not sure what happened in this thread. Klinton, Matter-Eater Man, and the other posters who support legalizing gay marriage have been for the most part understanding, or at least polite. You, on the other hand...

Well, it's a good thing I opted to moderate the Video Games forum instead of Deep Thoughts/Issues, because I probably would have deleted half your posts in this thread. A lot of other people would have banned you outright. But hey - I guess I'm a nice guy.

Watch your mouth.

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Not ONCE did I "attack christianity", chief.


And from what I understand, Rob's Boards are anything goes, no quarter asked or given (just ask the Nature Boyz). But even if that is NOT the case, since you aren't a moderator here it's hardly your call.

Watch my mouth? Mind your business, chum.

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

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Originally posted by Wednesday:

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

...I've offered explanations, clear and indisputable, but you clearly won't accept anything other than YOUR VERSION of the truth (which is to say, a lie that rationalizes homosexuality) despite all logic to the contrary. Well, don't expect me to endorse your lie.

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That was rather inappropriate, don't you think?

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I'm not sure I get your meaning, Wednesday.

I've offered several topic pages of quotes and explanations, and I can't seem to get the slightest acknowledgement of what the words in the Bible clearly say... is CLEARLY WHAT THEY SAY !

It took a lot of time to find and post thiose passages. And for what?

I feel the clear validity of my points (of what the Bible and Christian teachings clearly say about homosexuality) is being deliberately ignored.
I guarantee when the current legislation has undermined Christianity as I predicted, that no one will be arguing the rights of Christians to their beliefs and lifestyle.

And by the way, I haven't threatened anyone. klinton has.

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klinton:

And if you ever mention pedophilia in the same breath as homosexuality again, I will hunt your arrogant ass down. I am sick to death of that. There is no possible connection, other than the ones your twisted sense of superiority has drawn.

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So much for civility.

My "twisted sense of superiority" is supported by the words of Justice Scalia. And no doubt millions of other displeased Americans.

My position makes ideological sense. Yours only bends the truth to rationalize your lifestyle.

I've stuck to the issue, and resisted namecalling. Many on the liberal side of this topic have not.

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YOU (and many people like you, unfortunately) are the one who wants to use your take on the Bible as a means to continue discriminating against gays, Dave. YOU are the one trying to force your beliefs down everyone else's throats. However, since we do have a separation of church and state in this country, the bible should play no part in the legality of gay marriages.

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Originally posted by Dave:

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YOU (and many people like you, unfortunately) are the one who wants to use your take on the Bible as a means to continue discriminating against gays, Dave. YOU are the one trying to force your beliefs down everyone else's throats. However, since we do have a separation of church and state in this country, the bible should play no part in the legality of gay marriages.

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As Danny pointed out a few pages back, though, there is a distinction betwene a legal marriage and a Christian marriage. None of the Christian arguments can negate the right to gay couples going to a civil celebrant and obtianing a marriage license.

My issue is that a loving Christian Church should not deny a gay couple the same privilege as a straight couple. On that point, I fear you are right: it is discrimination.

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:

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Originally posted by Dave:

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YOU (and many people like you, unfortunately) are the one who wants to use your take on the Bible as a means to continue discriminating against gays, Dave. YOU are the one trying to force your beliefs down everyone else's throats. However, since we do have a separation of church and state in this country, the bible should play no part in the legality of gay marriages.

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As Danny pointed out a few pages back, though, there is a distinction betwene a legal marriage and a Christian marriage. None of the Christian arguments can negate the right to gay couples going to a civil celebrant and obtianing a marriage license.

My issue is that a loving Christian Church should not deny a gay couple the same privilege as a straight couple. On that point, I fear you are right: it is discrimination.

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I was just responding to an earlier post by Wonder Dave where he claimed that the US government was going to ultimately trample on his rights as a christian--- I think that's completely unfounded horseshit, but if it ever DID happen I would definitely fight for his right to worship.

What he wants, though, is to exclude/deny a homosexual's right to worship or have a church wedding based on HIS take on the Bible. Just another bully hiding behind "the good book" and trying to use it as a weapon against those who are different than him.

Of course christianity won't stop homosexuals from getting legally married, T-Dave. As much as people like Wonder Boy hate it, one day (and probably not too far off, really) gays and lesbians in the US will get all the rights and benefits that they deserve. It's just a matter of time.

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Originally posted by Dave:


Dave TWB has side-stepped a number of issues I have raised, the key one being the condonement of slavery in the Bible. I don't think he has addressed this (unless I overlooked it) other than to say that a Christian pro-slavery view was only predominant in the South. I think its worth looking into further, beyond the boundaries of your regional civil war. For example, a strict adherence to the Bible would mean that a slaver is able to be a good Christian and able to be married in a church, but a homosexual who truly believed that Christ died for his sins was not. This, of course, is ludicrous by our contemporary standards.

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GALATIANS 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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Originally posted by Dave:

One of Dave[TWB]'s arguments - in fact the only one supporting the insidousness of homosexuality - is that AIDS is a gay disease.

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Originally posted by Dave:


I think this is an ethnocentric view, based upon your anecdotal experience and observations. You say that you think 2% of people are gay (at best)...

That isn't attributable to a 2% population segment. Obviously I've not given you a comprehensive citation, but it leads me to believe that either there are more gays in the world than you think, or the disease is not chiefly a gay disease.

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Originally posted by Dave:


Even if it was a gay disease, a "disease" itself cannot be a fair example of evidence of a "corrupt" or "insidous" practice which would be capable of denying someone a Christian marriage. A leper has a terrible disease, yet a good Christian leper can be married in a church. To anticipate what you might say, the fact that the disease is capable of tranmission through anal or oral sex is not a relevant factor - anal and oral sex is also a practice amongst heterosexuals. In any event, AIDS is also capable of tranmission through vaginal sex.

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Originally posted by Dave:


I am reluctant to attack you rather than your argument, but I think that your disposition against homosexual marriage is clouded by your personal revulsion of anal sex between male homosexuals.
You might also hate going to the dentist or hearing fingernails scraped along a blackboard, but none should impair your ability to objectively regard homosexuality as a behavioural choice.


Speaking personally, I regard the practice was some mild distaste, but my personal feelings simply aren't a consideration. I don't let that get in the way of my views on gay rights - the right to live a lifestyle, sexually or otherwise, as you wish. I refuse to be prejudiced against someone because of their victimless lifestyle.

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YOU believe it is victimless, Dave, please respect the fact that, for the reasons I've abundantly stated, I DO NOT.

Cultural acceptance of homosexuality encourages a variety of other sexual and abberrant behaviors, as I've detailed above. The Bible teaches this (Romans, chapter 1, for example, as quoted in my posts over several pages), and I'm inclined to agree.
And most importantly, as I've said, homosexuality activists attempt to re-write the Bible, and distort the bible's meaning.

I'm not prejudiced toward gays. As recently as three weeks ago, I had lunch with a gay associate. I make it clear that I don't judge or discrriminate against gays as people, but that it's not a lifestyle I believe in. I generally don't discuss religion with gay friends, except on an occasional as-raised basis (usually when Christian-bashing remarks are made, I politely clarify the true Christian position, but don't dwell on it).
But I have plenty of other things to discuss with gay friends and co-workers: politics, shop talk, jokes, entertainment, etc.

I don't judge someone as a bad person because they're gay. Just like I don't think Democrats are bad people, just misguided .
There are characteristics of just about anyone that I like, as well as ones I dislike.


Gays have a right to their lifestyle in a democratic secular society. They do NOT have a right to re-write the Bible and its most sacred traditions (and specifically change the pre-existing 6000-plus year definition of marriage both within the Judao-Christian world, and within other religions and parts of the world). As I said, gays have a right to create their own form of gay union and spousal benefits. They don't have a right to re-write the Biblical definition of marriage, and pervert the meaning of Christianity by doing so.

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Originally posted by Dave:


I'm also, frankly, disappointed to think that a right-thinking Christian can want to exclude a fellow Christian from the goodwill of the Church simply because of a behavioural choice. Relying upon the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality is as incorrect as relying upon the Bible for justification of slavery.

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Originally posted by Dave:
As Danny pointed out a few pages back, though, there is a distinction between a legal marriage and a Christian marriage. None of the Christian arguments can negate the right to gay couples going to a civil celebrant and obtianing a marriage license.

My issue is that a loving Christian Church should not deny a gay couple the same privilege as a straight couple. On that point, I fear you are right: it is discrimination.

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
I can't get free of this thread!!!

Let's see...

You are a person.

You commit actions.

You are not your actions.

Therefore loving a person does not require condoning their actions.

And refusing to approve of a person's actions is not the same as rejecting that person.

I am reminded of a child stealing cookies from the cookie jar and getting caught by his mother. That child may have wanted those cookies, and that child will feel he is entirely right in his own eyes - in which case he will instantly conclude his mother must hate him because she didn't approve of his actions - stealing the cookies. But the child's mother knows better than the child, and she punishes him because she loves him. She opposes his actions because she knows his actions are potentially harmful to him in the short term, and would encourage patterns of self-destructive behavior in the long run.

The rules in the Bible aren't put there to justify social evils or to divide societies or to make people feel inferior. They're put there to promote people's mental, physical, and spiritual well-being.

The fact that the Bible stresses the importance of love and compassion in many places does not mitigate its statements on what is right and wrong. While you cannot pick and choose what passages of Scripture you want to believe without rendering the entire Book useless, you have to interpret any passage in the context of Scripture as a whole, which precludes attempting to justify a position specifically condemned elsewhere.

Homosexual acts are specifically addressed in both Old and New Testaments, and in both places they are addressed as sins. Not worse than any other sins, granted, but as I've been saying homosexuals are no worse than anyone else. The difference is this. In both the Bible and the laws of the United States - both church and state - we have laws against stealing (larceny), lying (perjury), murder (homicide), cheating (fraud), and so on. Now, you can nitpick about things like adultery and covetousness and so on, but... ummm... yeah, stones.

When Jesus spoke to the woman caught in adultery, He told her He did not condemn her - and in the very next sentence instructed her to 'go and sin no more.' Clearly, while God's love reaches out to a person despite their sins, it does not excuse the sin, nor does it mitigate any potential consequences.

Honestly, to push an argument through for gay rights, you'd have better luck dispensing with the Christian faith entirely - in which case I'd probably be out of your hair.

I'm not gonna pass judgment on people, just actions. I'm still your buddy, klinton - if you really feel like putting up with me.

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Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

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Originally posted by Dave:
As Danny pointed out a few pages back, though, there is a distinction between a legal marriage and a Christian marriage. None of the Christian arguments can negate the right to gay couples going to a civil celebrant and obtianing a marriage license.

My issue is that a loving Christian Church should not deny a gay couple the same privilege as a straight couple. On that point, I fear you are right: it is discrimination.

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Along the same path of thought, a loving court system should not convict and imprison thieves, rapists, drug dealers and murderers.

Laws are set up for a reason, for the good of society.

And the Bible is a set of laws of moral behavior. If those laws are not enforced and practiced, then why have them in the first place?
And without them, it is no longer Christianity. It is decadence and sexual immorality.

As Captain Sammitch said in one of his posts, more articulately, 3 or 4 pages back.

I'm really tired of answering the same questions I and others have already answered. I think many here want to believe we're wrong, and thus don't give serious consideration to the arguments I and others have raised.

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Originally posted by Matter-eater Man:


As I said before, freedom of religion is not an issue here. Your church won't be forced to marry homosexuals but as MK pointed out some churches will. Win win situation.

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Exactly!

And since we live in a free country Davey will still have the right to consider all of you a bunch of hell-bound homos. Ain't freedom of religion a butt-kickin' gas?

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Originally posted by Matter-eater Man:
Yes freedom of religion is a good thing. That got started when a group of people were persecuted for their different beliefs. Also got to love irony

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:lol:

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
Be careful, Matt. Rob doesn't check this forum as often as some of the others, but you're flirting with getting some of your posts deleted at the very least. Not only are you making personal attacks on individuals, you are attacking Christianity itself. Distinctly not an advisable course of action.

I don't care what your motivation or your agenda is. In this particular thread, you have breached just about every rule of MB etiquette there is. So, you find DTWB's statements offensive - which justifies your far more offensive statements against the whole lot of posters who don't agree with you? I don't think so.

I am genuinely trying to be patient here. On the other threads you post in, you're generally pretty reasonable. I'm not sure what happened in this thread. Klinton, Matter-Eater Man, and the other posters who support legalizing gay marriage have been for the most part understanding, or at least polite. You, on the other hand...

Well, it's a good thing I opted to moderate the Video Games forum instead of Deep Thoughts/Issues, because I probably would have deleted half your posts in this thread. A lot of other people would have banned you outright. But hey - I guess I'm a nice guy.

Watch your mouth.

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Not ONCE did I "attack christianity", chief.


And from what I understand, Rob's Boards are anything goes, no quarter asked or given (just ask the Nature Boyz). But even if that is NOT the case, since you aren't a moderator here it's hardly your call.

Watch my mouth? Mind your business, chum.

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On second thought: FUCK YOU. I don't need or want your "patience", Sammitch, so you can cram that condescending attitude of yours straight up your poop chute, ol' Hoss.

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:

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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
Be careful, Matt. Rob doesn't check this forum as often as some of the others, but you're flirting with getting some of your posts deleted at the very least. Not only are you making personal attacks on individuals, you are attacking Christianity itself. Distinctly not an advisable course of action.

I don't care what your motivation or your agenda is. In this particular thread, you have breached just about every rule of MB etiquette there is. So, you find DTWB's statements offensive - which justifies your far more offensive statements against the whole lot of posters who don't agree with you? I don't think so.

I am genuinely trying to be patient here. On the other threads you post in, you're generally pretty reasonable. I'm not sure what happened in this thread. Klinton, Matter-Eater Man, and the other posters who support legalizing gay marriage have been for the most part understanding, or at least polite. You, on the other hand...

Well, it's a good thing I opted to moderate the Video Games forum instead of Deep Thoughts/Issues, because I probably would have deleted half your posts in this thread. A lot of other people would have banned you outright. But hey - I guess I'm a nice guy.

Watch your mouth.

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Not ONCE did I "attack christianity", chief.


And from what I understand, Rob's Boards are anything goes, no quarter asked or given (just ask the Nature Boyz). But even if that is NOT the case, since you aren't a moderator here it's hardly your call.

Watch my mouth? Mind your business, chum.

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On second thought: FUCK YOU. I don't need or want your "patience", Sammitch, so you can cram that condescending attitude of yours straight up your poop chute, ol' Hoss.

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I could say something. I really could. But if I tried to sink to the level you've reached, the sudden change in barometric pressure would squash the whole thread flat. You have no idea how much restraint I am showing right now.

Well, congratulations, kid, you did it. You have pretty much earned the right to have EVERYTHING you say ignored, at least by me. The rules of this board and the rules of this country may dictate that you can speak your mind, but there's nothing that says any of us actually have to listen to you. And you have completely and utterly failed to redeem yourself by posting a legitimate rebuttal of anything your opponents have said, resorting instead to brainless character attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with you.

I was a bit worried there for a minute, but seeing how Armageddon hasn't happened yet and the dead are still securely in their graves, it would appear that you are not in fact the second coming of Christ. You probably won't get banned from here, but you're earning yourself an even worse fate: being universally ignored. It probably won't be too long before others start doing what I've done.

Audience privileges revoked.

Buh-bye.

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Boo-Hoo! Sammitch is going to ignore poor ol' me! How will I ever survive such a cruel, cruel fate?

Oh, get over yourself, you self-important cunt. I could care less about a brain-dead fuckwit like you ignoring me.

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DC Talk
Free At Last
[It's okay, it's all right]

It's okay, it's alright
Yeah, here we go
dcT is in the house boy
It's okay, it's alright

Whatcha thinking, doing the things you do
Whose opinion are ya listening to?
Justifying, you turn it all to gray
Synchronizing to society's ways

Society has gotten to be all outta whack
And don't bother with excuses whether white or black
To blame it on a color won't get a result
Because history reveals to me how ethics were lost
In reality our decency has taken a plunge
"In God We Trust" is an American pun
Funny how it happened so suddenly
Hey yo fellas, kick the melody...

(chorus)
Socially acceptable, it's okay, it's all right
Socially acceptable, it's okay, in whose sight
Socially acceptable

Times are changing, with morals in decay
Human rights have made the wrongs okay
Something's missing, and if you're asking me
I think that something is the G-O-D

To label wrong or right by the people's sight
Is like going to a loser to ask advice
And by basing your plans
On another man's way of living life
Is creating a brand of ethics
Sure to be missing the punch
No count morals that are out to lunch
They're sliding away cause everything is okay
It was taboo back then but today ya say, "What the hey"

(repeat chorus)

Yeah, yeah, yeah
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on

Everybody's doin' it
Who's doin' it
Everybody's doin' it
Yo, who's doin' it
Everybody's doin' it
Who's doin' it
Everybody's doin' it
Yo, yo, yo, who's doin' it
Ohhhh, alright
Ohhhh, come on

(bridge)
We gotta back to the principles found in the Word
A little G-O-D could be society's cure
From the state that we're in cause again we're slipping
So pray for America cause time is ticking

(repeat chorus 2x)

socially respectable
socially acceptable
socially respectable

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Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
Be careful, Matt. Rob doesn't check this forum as often as some of the others, but you're flirting with getting some of your posts deleted at the very least. Not only are you making personal attacks on individuals, you are attacking Christianity itself. Distinctly not an advisable course of action.

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