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Quote:
Wednesday said:
i believe that, in the eyes of many religious conservatives, he would be worse than kerry if he suddenly dropped the issue. for them, it would equate to pulling out of iraq.
I'd be non-plussed more like. I'm not about to not vote for him over putting his plans for stopping gay marriage on hold.
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Yeah, I doubt that many of those already planning on voting for Bush would have decided not to if he had just kept quiet.
If he had changed his mind and said he wanted the allowance of gay marriage to be universal, then he might have taken a serious hit.
I just don't see the middle-right religious conservative side having a multitude of options. In 2000 it was Nader taking votes from Gore that won Bush the election, so, if anything, it's Kerry that needs to fight to keep votes for his party.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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For me, the gay marriage issue plays no role in how I will cast my vote in November. There are FAR bigger issues at stake. Besides, marriage sucks anyway.
Jim
We all wear a green carnation.
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"First the military, now marriage. Why do these gays want in on our worst institutions?"
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Yeah, I doubt that many of those already planning on voting for Bush would have decided not to if he had just kept quiet.
If he had changed his mind and said he wanted the allowance of gay marriage to be universal, then he might have taken a serious hit.
I just don't see the middle-right religious conservative side having a multitude of options. In 2000 it was Nader taking votes from Gore that won Bush the election, so, if anything, it's Kerry that needs to fight to keep votes for his party.
i suppose that's true. after all, there's a huge overlap between the politically conservative and the religiously conservative. plus, most of the religious conservatives i know lean way to the right.
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
"First the military, now marriage. Why do these gays want in on our worst institutions?"
you know, i can vouch for both of those.
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Knowledge is Power! 1000+ posts
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Marriage isn't that bad... (so far, so good!  ) I can't speak for the military.
Member of the Justice League Reality
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Quote:
Britannica said:
Marriage isn't that bad... (so far, so good! )
Must be a newlywed...
We all wear a green carnation.
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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As Bart Simpson would say That's pretty gay, man.  Quote:
World - AP Asia
Colin Powell Sings Village People Song
Fri Jul 2, 1:03 PM ET
By SLOBODAN LEKIC, Associated Press Writer
JAKARTA, Indonesia - U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) donned a hard hat and tucked a hammer in his belt Friday to perform a version of the Village People's hit "YMCA" at the conclusion of Asia's largest security meeting — which tradition says ends with a night of skit and song.
Powell danced alongside five other U.S. officials dressed in fancy dress and blasted out a version of the 1970s disco classic to the delight of foreign ministers from across the Asia-Pacific and Europe........
It's funny how some people never catch on to what the lyrics are about.
Don't ask, don't tell, Colin. 
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It says Jul 2nd, but the threads at the top!
FREE SCOTT PETERSON!
"Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
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I just got finished re-reading this entire thread again....
.....WOW.....What an eye sore.
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The debate on the same-sex marriage bill has begun in the Canadian House of Commons (Parliament). There is definitely NOT a consensus on this either in Canada or in Parliament. Just to note my own stance in the debate, I want the traditional definition of marriage to be protected from endless change while also extending the same kinds of benefits that common-law couples get to same-sex couples. It's an incredibly controversial topic to discuss with either side, though. A couple of excerpts from Opposition leader Stephen Harper's address on Bill C-38: From http://www.conservative.ca/english/speeches.aspIn our discussion with Canadians we find there are three groups in public opinion.
At the one end there is a significant body of opinion, led today by the Prime Minister, which believes that the equality rights of gays and lesbians trump all other considerations, trumping any rights to religious faith, any religious expression or any multicultural diversity, and that any restriction on the right to same sex marriage is unjustifiable discrimination and a denial of human rights.
At the other end, there is an equally significant body that thinks that marriage is such a fundamental social institution, not only recognized by law but sanctified by faith throughout the world and throughout history, that any compromise in terms of recognizing homosexual relationships is unacceptable.
However, we believe that the vast majority of Canadians believe in some aspects of both and they are somewhere in the middle. They believe that marriage is a fundamental distinct institution, but that same sex couples can have equivalent rights and benefits and should be recognized and protected.
We believe that our proposals speak to the majority of Canadians who stand in this middle ground and frankly, who seek such a middle ground. Our proposal is that the law should continue to recognize the traditional definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others, but at the same time we would propose that other forms of union, however structured, by appropriate provincial legislation, whether called registered partnerships, domestic partnerships, civil unions or whatever, should be entitled to the same legal rights, privileges and obligations as marriage.
Many of these types of unions are already subject to provincial jurisdiction under their responsibility for civil law. However, there are issues affecting rights and benefits within the federal domain, and our party would ensure that for all federal purposes those Canadians living in other forms of union would be recognized as having equal rights and benefits under federal law as well.
What we put forward, in my judgment, is the real Canadian way. The Canadian way is not the blindly, ideological interpretation of the charter put forward by the Prime Minister. It is not a case where one side utterly vanquishes the other in a difficult debate on social issues. It is a constructive way, and as debate in other jurisdictions has shown, and I draw this to the attention of the House, this debate will not reach a conclusion or social peace until equal rights, multicultural diversity and religious freedom are balanced.
We also oppose the government's bill because it is a clear threat to religious freedom. We are proposing amendments that will prevent any religious discrimination within the sphere of federal authority.
This bill, by failing to find a reasonable compromise, a reasonable middle ground on the central question of marriage, is fundamentally flawed. ... The government has also claimed and is still claiming that marriage between persons of the same sex is a fundamental right. That is another erroneous opinion and a totally specious argument the government wants to spread. Government spokespersons bring disgrace on themselves, however, when they wrongly try to invoke the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to cover up their threadbare arguments.
I want to address an even more fundamental question. That is the question of the issue of human rights as it pertains to same sex marriage and the use and the abuse of the term ?human rights? in this debate which has been almost without precedent.
Fundamental human rights are not a magician's hat from which new rabbits can constantly be pulled out. The basic human rights we hold dear: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, and equality before the law, the kind of rights that are routinely violated by the Prime Minister's good friends in states such as Libya and China, are well understood and recognized around the world. These rights do not depend on Liberal bromides or media spinners for their defence.
The Prime Minister cannot through grand rhetoric turn his political decision to change the definition of marriage into a basic human right because it is not. It is simply a political judgment. It is a valid political option if one wants to argue for it; it is a mistaken one in my view, but it is only a political judgment. Same sex marriage is not a human right. This is not my personal opinion. It is not the opinion of some legal adviser. This reality has already been recognized by such international bodies as the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.
Mr. Speaker, I refer you to New Zealand's Quilter case. In 1997 the New Zealand court of appeal was asked to rule on the validity of the common law definition of marriage in light of the New Zealand bill of rights which, unlike our charter, explicitly prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. New Zealand's court ruled that the opposite sex requirement of marriage was not discriminatory. So the plaintiffs in this case made a complaint to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights that the New Zealand court violated the international covenant for the protection of rights to which New Zealand, like Canada, is a signator. But the UNCHR rejected this complaint in 2002, in effect upholding that same sex marriage is not a basic universal human right.
If same sex marriage were a fundamental human right, we have to think about the implications. If same sex marriage were a fundamental right, then countries as diverse as the United Kingdom, France, Denmark and Sweden are human rights violators. These countries, largely under left wing governments, have upheld the traditional definition of marriage while bringing in equal rights and benefits regimes for same sex couples, precisely the policy that I and the majority of the Conservative caucus propose.
Even those few countries that have brought in same sex marriage at the national level, currently only the Netherlands and Belgium, did not do so because their own courts or international bodies had defined this as a matter of human rights. They did so simply as the honest public policy choice of their legislatures. In fact, both the Netherlands and Belgium legislated some differences in same sex marriage as opposed to opposite sex marriage in many areas but particularly in areas like adoption.
In other words, no national or international court, or human rights tribunal at the national or international level, has ever ruled that same sex marriage is a human right.
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This is getting messy, isn't it? I think it'll have a rough ride trying to pass after all. A couple of months ago, it seemed like a done deal, but now it's looking less and less likely. I hope it passes. It'd be weird if I decided to get married and could change that status several times just by driving across the country. People just need to get thier heads out of thier asses and let it go. If the bill passes, without any of the funky amendments the conservatives are trying to attatch, people will care for about a week ar two and then forget about it...as it really won't affect thier daily lives. Folks like me though will be grateful every day for the fact that we live in Canada.
The realities that something like this opens up are awe inspiring when you step back and appreciate it. I actually started crying the other day when I realized that someday, Dan and I could sit down and plan our wedding...It's not something I'd ever considered before, or even thought to consider. On a human level (despite all of the politics and propaganda - on both sides of the issue) it's a really overwhelming feeling when you look at just what getting married can mean (picture a Halmark montage of life's little moments and you'll get what's going through my head right now). It's beautiful.
I think a little discomfort from religious conservatives is worth the sheer quality of life that I'd recieve in return...but of course, I'm a little biased on the issue.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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I have to admit: at least Canada is doing it right, a national debate by its elected legislators, as opposed to a piecemeal imposition by judicial fiat, based on sometimes shakey legal reasoning.
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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Yeah. Kinda the point of this whole democracy thing. Nice to see it in action.
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Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k 
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America Jr. is a whiny little bitch.
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From Washington Times interview with DeLay:
Mr. Hurt: Have you ever crossed the line of ethical behavior in terms of dealing with lobbyists, your use of government authority or with fundraising?
Mr. DeLay: Ever is a very strong word.
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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I remember receiving that mini-comic from an old friend that I told I was gay. He sent that & a couple of tapes of fire & brimstone for me. Plus a note that scared me. I ended up telling him I wasn't gay & thanked him for being a friend. Don't know what happened to him after that, kinda afraid to find out.
Fair play!
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Fire & Brimstone? A note? Zuh?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Fire & Brimstone? A note? Zuh?
He sent me hours of tape of him using that style of preaching. The note indicated that he was suicidal.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Paul Mandral said:
Jack Chick made his reservations in Hell early in order to get closest to the fire.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Fire & Brimstone? A note? Zuh?
He sent me hours of tape of him using that style of preaching. The note indicated that he was suicidal.
Doesn't he know that suicide is a sin?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Fire & Brimstone? A note? Zuh?
He sent me hours of tape of him using that style of preaching. The note indicated that he was suicidal.
Doesn't he know that suicide is a sin?
Rationality doesn't really enter the picture when it comes to suicide.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Fire & Brimstone? A note? Zuh?
He sent me hours of tape of him using that style of preaching. The note indicated that he was suicidal.
Doesn't he know that suicide is a sin?
Rationality doesn't really enter the picture when it comes to suicide.
I was just pointing out the hypocracy of "your sin is worse than mine" attitude that's unfortunately plagued Christians.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Enfroirer de mes deux couilles! How many times do we need to bump this stupid ass thread back up! LET IT DIE! Please, please let it die already.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
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Blame r3x. His alt id bumped it.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Gay Christians - What Does the Bible Say?
Openly gay men appointed to high office in the church - is this something Christians should be shocked by, or a cultural openness we should all embrace? There was a time when the very idea would have been treated with alarm and denial, but today the numbers of people who claim to love Christ while living in homosexuality are growing. What is the truth? What does God have to say about gays and gay Christians?
Can a person love God and disobey His Word? And is homosexuality an act of disobedience? What does the Bible really say? The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that those who fall into homosexuality do so as a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, God "gives them over" to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God.
Gay Christians - How Great a Sin?
Homosexuality is just one of many possible sins we can be mastered by. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual "offenders" will not inherit the kingdom of God. Homosexuality is not a "greater" sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. God's forgiveness is just as available to the homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17). The key is to believe His Word, believe He has a perfect will and purpose for your life, to acknowledge wrong thoughts, attitudes and behavior, to ask Him for strength to resist temptation and then to act on that faith.
Gay is a word that used to mean joyfully happy - and for those "gays" who turn to Christ and repent of this lifestyle, gay can mean joyfully happy again! Genesis 1:26&27 tell us that God created mankind (that means all people) in His own image. Revelation 4:11 tells us that God's motivation for creating all the things He created was because… He wanted to! All mankind was created by and for the pleasure of God. He loves us that much! These words testify to the fact that every single individual matters to God.
With that in mind, when the Bible takes a strong stand against a particular behavior, attitude or action, we need to pay special attention! God is our loving Creator and Heavenly Father. His purposes are never to divide us or cause us to turn away from Him, but are always to show us the way to wholeness and health. Many say that the Bible is a guidebook for life, an owner's manual if you will. Why would an owner's manual tell you not to use a certain grade of motor oil unless that motor oil would damage the engine? It's the same with God's Word, but with infinitely greater, vastly eternal consequences.
Gay Christians - What's Wrong with Welcoming All Lifestyles
Today's trend to accept all lifestyles and behavior as OK is not OK with God. We all want to feel like we are normal and worthy of love - so consider who or what is really telling us that anything we want to do is OK, and then consider the consequences: broken homes, abused, confused children, shattered lives. Is that what a loving Father would want for His children? God loves us and He knows what will hurt us. He is a protective Father who does not want His babies to be hurt! Listen to His Word. If you are caught in this sin or any other, consider carefully what He is saying to your heart.
Gay Christians - What Do You Think?
Are you a gay Christian? Are you a believer who is trapped in homosexuality? Do you think it's OK? Think again, please, for your own sake and for the sake of those who love you. Consider the Word of God. He did not make us male and female for no reason. Look at the way life is created, whether it is an electric current, a kitten or a baby boy or girl. It takes both components, the male and female, connected, to make life.
Don't you want to know why you're here? Don't you want to know what your purpose in life is? Then please don't be blinded by the lies of a clever enemy whose only goal is your destruction. Come to the Savior who gave His life to set you free from all sin.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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希望の戦士 2000+ posts
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Well done, Your Battyness. 
There is no version of this where you come out on top. Maybe your army comes, and maybe it’s too much for us, but it’s all on you. Because if we can’t protect the Earth, you can be damn well sure we’ll avenge it.
Hello?
Put Natasha on the phone.
Who is this?
This is her fucking son's father. Who is this?
This is her fucking son.
..........oh.......
Call back in 20 minutes. *click*
Boy, you could get lost in a sky like that. I wish I had those balloons again.
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I'd been wanting to do that for ages.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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"Are you a believer who is trapped in homosexuality"?
"Gay is a word that used to mean joyfully happy - and for those "gays" who turn to Christ and repent of this lifestyle, gay can mean joyfully happy again!" 
"Revelation 4:11 tells us that God's motivation for creating all the things He created was because… He wanted to! All mankind was created by and for the pleasure of God." 
[url=http://www.robkamphausen.com/ubbthreads/...e=0&fpart=2 ]the G-man said[/url]
Wednesday and I have an open relationship. And we believe in sharing.
G-Man "G-gay" points: 2,000,000
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Telling people that they're "trapped" in their own lifestyle isn't exactly the best way to get them to see your point of view.
Yes, it's true, it does require two components to create life.. However, there are so many heterosexual couples who are incapable of procreation for medical reasons. Should they believe that they are cursed? Should they believe that their lives have no purpose, because they can't actually conceive a child?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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So many?
How many is "so many"?
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By the by, being "trapped" doesn't necessarily mean they're stuck for good. They can change. Plus, a "lifestyle" isn't the same as a sexual predisposition.
Hey Wednesday. How bout' you use your mod powers to conjoin this thread with this one.
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Quote:
"Revelation 4:11 tells us that God's motivation for creating all the things He created was because… He wanted to! All mankind was created by and for the pleasure of God."
Hey, Jeff, i don't know if you stick arround to have an open Diologue or just make flip comments and leave, but if you're open to discuss things, what exactly is your issue with the above statement.... What makes it so "shocking"
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
So many?
How many is "so many"?
"While infertility is not an epidemic, it is a very common health problem in both men and women. According to the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) approximately 4.5 million couples experience infertility each year. This equates to approximately 1 in six couples in the United States."
Quote:
Pariah said:
By the by, being "trapped" doesn't necessarily mean they're stuck for good. They can change. Plus, a "lifestyle" isn't the same as a sexual predisposition.
Whether or not they're "stuck for good" doesn't matter. What matters is that words like "trapped" are used at all in the first place. Religious groups approach gays like they're diseased and that they need to be cured(actually, in truth, certain religious groups treat all people who don't believe exactly what they believe that way, but that's for another day). That's just not a way you're going to get people receptive to your message.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
"Revelation 4:11 tells us that God's motivation for creating all the things He created was because… He wanted to! All mankind was created by and for the pleasure of God."
Hey, Jeff, i don't know if you stick arround to have an open Diologue or just make flip comments and leave, but if you're open to discuss things, what exactly is your issue with the above statement.... What makes it so "shocking"
I JUST THOUGHT THE SHEER IGNORANCE OF THE FIRST 2 COMMENTS REQUIRED NO FURTHER COMMENTARY ON MY PART.
As for the last one, I found it amusing that man was created to "pleasure" God. I'm sure it's not the intended meaning mind you, just the way it was phrased made me bust a gut.
So it was either using the shocking graemlin or the LOL one. And the LOL one had already been used previously.
[url=http://www.robkamphausen.com/ubbthreads/...e=0&fpart=2 ]the G-man said[/url]
Wednesday and I have an open relationship. And we believe in sharing.
G-Man "G-gay" points: 2,000,000
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Animalman said:
"While infertility is not an epidemic, it is a very common health problem in both men and women. According to the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) approximately 4.5 million couples experience infertility each year. This equates to approximately 1 in six couples in the United States."
I wouldn't define that as "so many" when trying to correlate distinction with homosexual couples' inability to have children. Especially since that number isn't a world-wide assesment. Furthermore, a single-digit percentage of America's infertile cases borderlines on nussaince(sp) moreso than a standing concern. If it was around say 25% percent averages for every country on the globe, that would make your argument more appropriately notable.
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Animalman said:
Religious groups approach gays like they're diseased and that they need to be cured(actually, in truth, certain religious groups treat all people who don't believe exactly what they believe that way, but that's for another day). That's just not a way you're going to get people receptive to your message.
Fine. But that doesn't automatically make them wrong.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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OP
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
This is off topic, so I'm not really expecting an answer (unless we start a new thread) but
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Batwoman said:
Revelation 4:11 tells us that God's motivation for creating all the things He created was because… He wanted to! All mankind was created by and for the pleasure of God. He loves us that much! These words testify to the fact that every single individual matters to God.
This doesn't really work. I mean, it doesn't defy logic or anything, but this argument has no strength. Just because someone or something creates another someone or something does not mean the creation is loved. Even more, just because someone or something creates a whole lot of things, doesn't mean each individual thing holds importance in the creator's eye.
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Pariah said:
Quote:
Animalman said:
"While infertility is not an epidemic, it is a very common health problem in both men and women. According to the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) approximately 4.5 million couples experience infertility each year. This equates to approximately 1 in six couples in the United States."
I wouldn't define that as "so many" when trying to correlate distinction with homosexual couples' inability to have children. Especially since that number isn't a world-wide assesment. Furthermore, a single-digit percentage of America's infertile cases borderlines on nussaince(sp) moreso than a standing concern. If it was around say 25% percent averages for every country on the globe, that would make your argument more appropriately notable.
Actually, I'd argue that your argument isn't notable. At all. The question of whether or not infertile heterosexual couples are wrong or cursed isn't any more or less valid based on the number of couples.
The question is still valid whether it is 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000, and you still haven't given an answer. All you've done is argue over the two most inconsequential words in his original question.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,289
2000+ posts
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2000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,289 |
Quick question:
There was a big fuss in the Anglican church last year because they wanted to promote a Gay Bishop.
He had been celibate for a long time because the bible said it was wrong. A big fuss was made and his promotion blocked.
Where do you lot stand on this situation?
Personally, I am sure all the clergy has sinned at somepoint and since this man had refrained from sinning and repented I don't see why he couldn't be promoted.
Isn't one of the big points that we all sin and if we repent and try to live a just life then God forgives us?
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