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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Sorry, man, but this says very little.
Tell me, who influenced me to be gay?
I don't know. I didn't live your life. But influence is a constant with any homo sapien sapien.
Then if it's a constant, as an explanatory variable it's meaningless.
C'mon, you must have some basic, rudimentary list of "influences" that you've consider might be at play in some gay's life. Let's see what they are.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Yes I am. Careless sex, as shown in the past, can be harmful to society. Not to mention the people who partake of it.
What if it's careful and well-considered and between two people who love each other for years and will continue to love each other (and only each other) for years?
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Quote:
klinton said:
The real harm has come from repressing homosexuality. Because of the historical taboos we now have a whole network of disgusting activities that have become synonomous with homosexuality (bathouses and rampant casual sexual activity the formost in my mind). These resulting sub-cultures have led to the spread of things like AIDS in epidemic proportions. This is not to mention the high suicide rates and sever depression that are characteristic of gay men and women.
Allowing us to live as equals and live openly will help to dismantle and remove these things from society. This is bad?
I agree, careless sex is dangerous and immoral.
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Quote:
klinton said:
They won't get that depressed if society would grow up. If they didn't have to live in fear, if they didn't have to grow up feeling different...there would be nothing to bottle up and get depressed over. Legalizing marriage is a positive step in society to reducing the misplaced shame they are subjected to.
Marriage was legalized in Canada......Has the country grown up now? Have people stopped persecuting you at every corner and restaurant or whatever?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Then if it's a constant, as an explanatory variable it's meaningless.
No, it's very relevent. Cuz' that consistency in influence could come from anywhere. This guy could be inspired by Lincoln while that guy could be inspired by Neitzsche.
Quote:
C'mon, you must have some basic, rudimentary list of "influences" that you've consider might be at play in some gay's life. Let's see what they are.
Psychiatrists do that. I don't. Your influences are your own. Everyone has a dynamic set of life circumstances. I don't dig shot in the dark psychology
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Marriage was legalized in Canada......Has the country grown up now? Have people stopped persecuting you at every corner and restaurant or whatever?
We have long taken steps to look at the bigger picture. Public opinion is more informed and mature (on this and other issues). And yes, I do believe that we are in a better place for it. When the leader of the country has no problems standing up and saying 'this is necessary' than I think it speaks volumes for the citizenry. Granted, it's not perfect. There are still those who will never realize ther ignorance (we still hear of racial bigotry in today's day and age)...but as a whole, I think things are getting there.
And a side note, the vote for a national amendment to the marriage laws takes place tomorrow. As it stands now, there are still provinces that don't recognize gay marriage.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
What if it's careful and well-considered and between two people who love each other for years and will continue to love each other (and only each other) for years?
Speaking secularly: I don't find that makes a difference health awareness-wise. Remaining in the context of homosexuality; sodomy, even if protected, is physically hurtful to the body. There's no proper way to do something to the body that it wasn't meant to do in the first place.
And the idea that this could catch on among couples and those very couples thinking that casual sex, in this fashion, was acceptable makes the implication of just two people practicing sodomy moot.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Then if it's a constant, as an explanatory variable it's meaningless.
No, it's very relevent. Cuz' that consistency in influence could come from anywhere. This guy could be inspired by Lincoln while that guy could be inspired by Neitzsche.
So it's willy-niily, and, again, meaningless.
Quote:
Psychiatrists do that. I don't. Your influences are your own. Everyone has a dynamic set of life circumstances. I don't dig shot in the dark psychology
IOW, you don't have an idea. You've made an assertion without considering it.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2005-04-11 7:21 PM.
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3 pages in 12 hours. Hurm. Going back a bit here: Quote:
Pariah said:
I wouldn't define that as "so many" when trying to correlate distinction with homosexual couples' inability to have children. Especially since that number isn't a world-wide assesment. Furthermore, a single-digit percentage of America's infertile cases borderlines on nussaince(sp) moreso than a standing concern. If it was around say 25% percent averages for every country on the globe, that would make your argument more appropriately notable.
I don't know what the number of infertile couples around the globe is, just as you don't know what the number of homosexuals around the globe is. I don't see it as being more or less of an argument if it's 25% or 2.5%. As Wednesday said, that's semantics. It's a problem either way.
You pretty much side-stepped the entire issue, which was that the argument that homosexuality is wrong(or unnatural or whatever other terms used) because a homosexual couple cannot directly produce offspring is flawed.
Homosexuals can still be parents. They can still raise children. Having a same-sex partner doesn't automatically make you any less loving or caring.
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Pariah said:
They're not inconsequential. Animalman made it clear that it was volume that dictated his concern with "so many".
No, I didn't. The volume really isn't that important. I don't know why, of all the things I said, that tidbit was what you focused on.
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Because he, nor any of the opponents of the issue has any real argument other than it's wrong as far as thier church teaches them. This is a moot conversation if you cannot get them to accept that they are entitled to feel that way, so long as the rest of us are entiled to carry on with our lives. Pariah has jumped from argument to argument, inadiquately supporting any of them. His final 'argument' is the fact that anal sex is unhealthy and that this is a public health matter. Batwoman has said nothing of import.
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Yeah, I remember his old argument that homosexuality was wrong because of the damage done to the anus.
Like sex in general, if anal sex is done carefully, there shouldn't be anything wrong. Is it really that different from breaking the hymen? C'mon.
And, like sex in general, the main way anal sex can be harmful is if the participants have multiple sexual partners, and contract diseases.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
So it's willy-niily, and, again, meaningless.
So you're saying....People aren't influenced in life?
Quote:
IOW, you don't have an idea. You've made an assertion without considering it.
Yeah. I have no idea what effected you, and I'm not so brazen to make an attempt at interpretation because I don't know you. I do know, however, that you were effected by your surroundings like everything else on this planet.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Because he, nor any of the opponents of the issue has any real argument other than it's wrong as far as thier church teaches them. This is a moot conversation if you cannot get them to accept that they are entitled to feel that way, so long as the rest of us are entiled to carry on with our lives. Pariah has jumped from argument to argument, inadiquately supporting any of them. His final 'argument' is the fact that anal sex is unhealthy and that this is a public health matter. Batwoman has said nothing of import.
Quote:
Animalman said:
Yeah, I remember his old argument that homosexuality was wrong because of the damage done to the anus.
Like sex in general, if anal sex is done carefully, there shouldn't be anything wrong. Is it really that different from breaking the hymen? C'mon.
And, like sex in general, the main way anal sex can be harmful is if the participants have multiple sexual partners, and contract diseases.
Ani and Klint's opinions are being subjected to scrutiny so they have to sit in a circle-jerk and agree about stuff to make up for it.
Well, I'm feeling pretty good about myself now. 
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Quote:
Animalman said:
You pretty much side-stepped the entire issue, which was that the argument that homosexuality is wrong(or unnatural or whatever other terms used) because a homosexual couple cannot directly produce offspring is flawed.
You didn't even mention this issue in your post. Nor did you mention this:
Quote:
Homosexuals can still be parents. They can still raise children. Having a same-sex partner doesn't automatically make you any less loving or caring.
Quote:
Animalman said:
No, I didn't. The volume really isn't that important. I don't know why, of all the things I said, that tidbit was what you focused on.
So basically what you're saying is, you're following Wednesday's lead because you made a careless sweeping argument......Okay.
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Pariah said:
Ani and Klint's opinions are being sebjected to scrutiny so they have to sit in a circle-jerk and agree about stuff to make up for it.
Well, I'm feeling pretty good about myself now.
I honestly don't feel that you've presented anything that constitues scrutiny. I've given level replies to all of your 'arguments' and recieved nothing in return.
On the issue of God, and his opinions, I've tried to put that to rest. You feel how you do, and I have my feelings. We'll let Him sort that out (and I have no doubt that He will). As to the issue of legality and government policy (once again, a seperate institution) you have yet to present anything that even remotely justifies banning gay marriage.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
So it's willy-niily, and, again, meaningless.
So you're saying....People aren't influenced in life?
Of course I am not saying that. However, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to be specific in how you think "influencers" actually influence.
Quote:
Yeah. I have no idea what effected you, and I'm not so brazen to make an attempt at interpretation because I don't know you. I do know, however, that you were effected by your surroundings like everything else on this planet.
But to "effected[sic] by your surroundings" says nothing in the big scheme of this discussion.
There has to be an beginning in the chain of causality.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Of course I am not saying that. However, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to be specific in how you think "influencers" actually influence.
So what? You want me to recite a bunch of freudian type hopethese(sp)? How's that gonna help?
Things are subjective to everyone. "What may be right for you, may not be right for some" and that BS.
Quote:
But to "effected[sic] by your surroundings" says nothing in the big scheme of this discussion.
There has to be an beginning in the chain of causality.
And the fact of the matter is: Everyone's causality is different. I don't see how making assumptions using something so innaccurate will get us anywhere.
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Quote:
klinton said:
I honestly don't feel that you've presented anything that constitues scrutiny. I've given level replies to all of your 'arguments' and recieved nothing in return.
In all honesty, you've been ignoring secular issues that speak against you're own arguments.
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Pariah said:
You didn't even mention this issue in your post.
That was the entire point of my post. I used different wording, but it was the same point.
And, yet again, you avoid actually addressing the point, and instead decide to insult me. I guess that's really your only conversational tactic.
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Pariah said:
In all honesty, you've been ignoring secular issues that speak against you're own arguments.
Such as? You're just arguing for argument's sake, aren't you?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Yeah. I have no idea what effected you, and I'm not so brazen to make an attempt at interpretation because I don't know you. I do know, however, that you were effected by your surroundings like everything else on this planet.
Ok, let me help ya here.
Do you have an idea of class of influencers? Do you think things/events such as these influence someone to be gay:
-contact with another gay person while growing up
-hearing your parents speak positively about gay people
-seeing others having gay sex
-"you show me yours, I'll show you mine"
-playing doctor
Surely you've put some thought into it, if you believe that there are environmental influences at work in the establishment of a homosexual orientation...
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Quote:
Animalman said:
That was the entire point of my post. I used different wording, but it was the same point.
And, yet again, you avoid actually addressing the point, and instead decide to insult me. I guess that's really your only conversational tactic.
Quote:
Animalman said:
Telling people that they're "trapped" in their own lifestyle isn't exactly the best way to get them to see your point of view.
Yes, it's true, it does require two components to create life.. However, there are so many heterosexual couples who are incapable of procreation for medical reasons. Should they believe that they are cursed? Should they believe that their lives have no purpose, because they can't actually conceive a child?
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Quote:
klinton said:
Such as? You're just arguing for argument's sake, aren't you?
It appears you are actually:
Quote:
Klinton said:I'm not going to get into it all again...there are pages upon pages of clear arguments in here.
Hmmm....You ignored my analysis of homosexuality's physical consequences as well as marriage's origin of purpose within government (not only in this thread either!). I wonder if you'll ignore your own words too.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Ok, let me help ya here.
Do you have an idea of class of influencers? Do you think things/events such as these influence someone to be gay:
-contact with another gay person while growing up
-hearing your parents speak positively about gay people
-seeing others having gay sex
-"you show me yours, I'll show you mine"
-playing doctor
Surely you've put some thought into it, if you believe that there are environmental influences at work in the establishment of a homosexual orientation...
I realize those things exist, and they could be right in some instances, but not all. So I don't want to get into that. I mean, neither of us are really qualified. What are you looking for?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
"Yes, it's true, it does require two components to create life.. However, there are so many heterosexual couples who are incapable of procreation for medical reasons."
Is it really that hard to see? I used one example to show that the argument was flawed.
By all means, though, continue avoiding the argument.
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Pariah said:
Hmmm....You ignored my analysis of homosexuality's physical consequences as well as marriage's origin of purpose within government (not only in this thread either!). I wonder if you'll ignore your own words too.
All of which was counter argued (by myself and many others...your suggestions on the topic were distnictly false, as can be proven with minimal research). Marriage is a buisness transaction. Even just a few posts ago I offered a statement on this issue and the uses of marriage.
And for a country who opted out of the Kyoto proticals, I hardly see ridiculously inflated puplic 'health concerns' as a reason for keeping two people who love each other from marriage (not to mention that your 'argument' completely ignores the sexual habits of lesbians).
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Quote:
Animalman said:
"Yes, it's true, it does require two components to create life.. However, there are so many heterosexual couples who are incapable of procreation for medical reasons."
Is it really that hard to see? I used one example to show that the argument was flawed.
By all means, though, continue avoiding the argument.
Animalman's technique:
A) Make broad statement.
B ) Pathetically argue it's validity.
C) After someone of his own political stance points out its stupidity, make a 180 and agree with said poster.
D) When feeling threatened after someone actually argues his points, he'll take apart his entire post and analyze it piece by piece so as to over-explain it and then destroy its original contextualization.
E) Spontateously agree with other posters who don't agree with whom he's arguing with.
F) Use volley upon volley of ad hominem when he realizes that no one's buying it.
G) Repeat.
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Quote:
klinton said:
All of which was counter argued (by myself and many others...your suggestions on the topic were distnictly false, as can be proven with minimal research). Marriage is a buisness transaction. Even just a few posts ago I offered a statement on this issue and the uses of marriage.
I already pointed out to you that you didn't address the fact that I wasn't approaching marriage from a religious viewpoint, but a legal one. You ignored.
Quote:
And for a country who opted out of the Kyoto proticals, I hardly see ridiculously inflated puplic 'health concerns' as a reason for keeping two people who love each other from marriage (not to mention that your 'argument' completely ignores the sexual habits of lesbians).
See my comments directed towards Jim Jackson.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I already pointed out to you that you didn't address the fact that I wasn't approaching marriage from a religious viewpoint, but legal one. You ignored.
Do me a quick favor and quote that for me.
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It started here: Quote:
Pariah siad:
You're right and that's what I've been trying to do. My problem isn't so much with marriage (although I do have civil concerns as I noted in Animalman's gay marriage thread) as it is what allowance of gay marriage encourages. I don't find sodomy to be harmless or okay--And I'm saying this from a secular as well as spiritual POV. If it was casually associated with society, I feel it could turn into a major problem.
After I notified you of government documented equal rights here:
Quote:
PariahWe do live as equals. By law you are afforded the same rights as everyone else--With the exception of certain marriage benefits because they are more promptu for straight couples, plus the marriage design wasn't meant to accomodate homosexual requisites. The actions of bigots don't represent the law as governed by the United States of America or the Canadian government.
And then you responded with:
Quote:
Once again, marriage is a buisness transaction. People get married every day for status, for financial security and any number of non-child rearing reasons (including politics and public approval). If you are willing to deny gay marriage becasue it cannot biologicaly produce children...there are plenty of other targets that deserve your equal attention as well. If you're not willing to address them, then you have no buisness discussing this.
And I replied saying you were an asshole....I think.
Homosexuals are allowed civil unions, which offer everything but the unlikely to be needed child-care benefits. Moreover, gays are allowed to adopt, and in many cities they can request stipends, which they may recieve depending on their financial history, which is exactly the case for straight couples. Hu-fucking-zah.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
"Yes, it's true, it does require two components to create life.. However, there are so many heterosexual couples who are incapable of procreation for medical reasons."
Is it really that hard to see? I used one example to show that the argument was flawed.
By all means, though, continue avoiding the argument.
No you proved nothing. Heterosexual couples that may not be able to have their own childern have medical reasons why they aren't able to have children. These days most of it's treatable. To say that a MAN and a WOMAN who can't have sex is the same as saying a MAN and another MAN or a WOMAN and another WOMAN, who don't have the components together in that relationship to bear their own children is the same?
You really think your hot stuff don't you?
All you did was show how little you know about the subject at hand.
Last edited by Batwoman; 2005-04-11 9:28 PM.
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Ok then. A quick search (yahoo) for any new information on the 'health risks' of anal sex (any, that is, that have come out since I was a sex-ed instructor less than 5 years ago...asshole) turns up zero precautions for the act, with the exception of the 'catholic education.org' website (how fucking odd). Every secular source will agree that any risks with anal sex are in promiscuity (and someone seeking the right to marriage might not have cheating on thier mind...I'd think).
In light of the fact that your definition of marriage is false (by an easily confirmed historical record, read before you speak), it is a legal transaction...nothing more (why can't heterosexuals be subjected to the demeaning 'civil union' - God never used the term 'marriage' in the union of Adam and Eve - and have everyone inelligible for marriage?), I have to ask...
What exactly are you trying to say? Give me just one legaly acceptable reason to uphold the ban on gay marriage.
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Funny, my cousin who is a doctor would disagree with your 'findings' on the no health risks of anal sex.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Funny, my cousin who is a doctor would disagree with your 'findings' on the no health risks of anal sex.
And that means what, exactly? That you have a make-believe cousin? You never did answer me as to why you post to this topic. Please, explain.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,680 |
Unlike some people, I have real family members, not made up ones. I also have family across the globe, one of which is a doctor who studied medicine in the states. So I'd take his word over yours a meer teacher, and NOT doctor over the risks of anal sex.
Why am I posting here? The net's a free place, I can post where ever I want. I don't have to give you a reason as to why I'm posting. Unlike SOME people, I have never ONCE complained about how much I hate this thread and how I wish it would die. You on the other hand have said that, so why are YOU posting here when you yourself have stated how you hate it?
why not leave?
Last edited by Batwoman; 2005-04-11 9:53 PM.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
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Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Unlike some people, I have real family members, not made up ones. I also have family across the globe, one of which is a doctor who studied medicine in the states. So I'd take his word over yours a meer teacher, and NOT doctor over the risks of anal sex.
Why am I posting here? The net's a free place, I can post where ever I want. I don't have to give you a reason as to why I'm posting. Unlike SOME people, I have never ONCE complained about how much I hate this thread and how I wish it would die. You on the other hand have said that, so why are YOU posting here when you yourself have stated how you hate it?
why not leave?
Am I supposed to laugh at this or what? I don't get your approach here.
Yes, my entire family is made up? I spawned from nothing? Cool? Then don't take my word, take the consensus of the medical community. Ignorance is not a badge to wear so proudly.
I hate this thread because of people like yourself, not the topic. I am personally invested in this issue...'the net's a free place' (holy fucking maturity there...).
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
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klinton said:
Ok then. A quick search (yahoo) for any new information on the 'health risks' of anal sex (any, that is, that have come out since I was a sex-ed instructor less than 5 years ago...asshole) turns up zero precautions for the act, with the exception of the 'catholic education.org' website (how fucking odd). Every secular source will agree that any risks with anal sex are in promiscuity (and someone seeking the right to marriage might not have cheating on thier mind...I'd think).
You really really want what you say to be true, so you just say it not taking into account the reality of the situation. There is no correct way to go about sodomy--The act, in and of itself, is wrong--And I'm not saying that cuz' I'm Catholic, I'm saying it cuz' the body wasn't designed for it, and on a long enough timeline, your body's going to permanently and very negatively effected. In case you didn't know, the ever-widening state of the sphincter muscle is neither a positive nor a benign outcome of a dick being shoved into it. And most certainly is the reigning threats of disease or of damaging the rectum.
Take all the precautions you wish, but none of these attempts at softening the blow will make what you do "safe" or "careful" or even right.
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In light of the fact that your definition of marriage is false (by an easily confirmed historical record, read before you speak), it is a legal transaction...nothing more (why can't heterosexuals be subjected to the demeaning 'civil union' - God never used the term 'marriage' in the union of Adam and Eve - and have everyone inelligible for marriage?), I have to ask...
What exactly are you trying to say? Give me just one legaly acceptable reason to uphold the ban on gay marriage.
Because it was invented with the intent of supporting families.
Stop changing the subject. Nowhere did I bring up God.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Unlike some people, I have real family members, not made up ones.
You should make a list just to prove it.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
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Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
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Pariah said:
In case you didn't know, the ever-widening state of the sphincter muscle is neither a positive nor a benign outcome of a dick being shoved into it. And most certainly is the reigning threats of disease or of damaging the rectum.
The kind of damage you are indicating is not a risk to the average person (anymore than permanent vaginal damage is to a hetero woman). Again, don't take my word, do your reading. The anus is more than well equipped to handle the penetration (it's an incredibly maleable piece of muscle).
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Stop changing the subject. Nowhere did I bring up God.
You were trying to justify that marriages exist for the security of families. I'm saying that's just not true. Marriages have served many purposes in history. The foremost historical purpose of a marriage is a legal contract providing for the aquisition of property and wealth.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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