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Indeed it is. I'm still typing up that summary for Wanna. I'm on my 13 page!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Maybe it gets more posts because it is a more complicated issue.
I'm not sure if I agree with that assesement.
On the other hand, I'm much more sure that this is a debate I don't want to get dragged into here, judging by the hot tempers on both sides.
I usually prefer to keep most of my views on issues like these to myself. It's just the way I am.
However, I couldn't help commenting on the number of posts this issue gets.
"Just because I don't like to fight doesn't mean that I can't."
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Toronto Sun--
Bill Dalrymple, 56, and best friend Bryan Pinn, 65, have decided to take the plunge and try out the new same-sex marriage legislation with a twist--they're straight men. . . . The two--both of whom were previously married and both of whom are still looking for a good woman to love--insist that after the humour subsided, a real issue lies at the heart of it all. 'There are significant tax implications that we don't think the government has thought through.' Pinn said.
A man and a woman could do this for exactly the same reasons.
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Quote:
Steve T said:
A man and a woman could do this for exactly the same reasons.
In which case, it would be a finagle. And that isn't illegal. Love isn't a requisite of marriage.
The government works off of maximum efficiency. And allowing only straight people the privilege to marry is incorporating such a policy. By doing that, we, and they, at least know it works a great deal. By allowing it to gays, however, it doesn't work at all.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Steve T said:
A man and a woman could do this for exactly the same reasons.
In which case, it would be a finagle. And that isn't illegal. Love isn't a requisite of marriage.
The government works off of maximum efficiency. And allowing only straight people the privilege to marry is incorporating such a policy. By doing that, we, and they, at least know it works a great deal. By allowing it to gays, however, it doesn't work at all.
I'm always amazed at the lengths you go to to cover your prejudices.
Bow ties are coool.
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I've gotta agree. That was a huge pile of horseshite.
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Tell me what you find wrong with it and then I'll give a more in depth explanation.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Tell me what you find wrong with it and then I'll give a more in depth explanation.
here, let me change gay to black and straight to white and marry to vote and you'll see where your extreme prejudice is showing:
Quote:
Jim Crow Pariah said:
The government works off of maximum efficiency. And allowing only white people the privilege to vote is incorporating such a policy. By doing that, we, and they, at least know it works a great deal. By allowing it to blacks, however, it doesn't work at all.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Tell me what you find wrong with it and then I'll give a more in depth explanation.
Every.
Freakin'.
Part.
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Quote:
theory9 said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Tell me what you find wrong with it and then I'll give a more in depth explanation.
Every.
Freakin'.
Part.
Exactly.
That wa sa lot of words with no applicable meaning.
Two men could do it. Two women could do it. A man and a woman could do it. There is no difference in the efficiency there.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Steve T said:
A man and a woman could do this for exactly the same reasons.
In which case, it would be a finagle. And that isn't illegal. Love isn't a requisite of marriage.
The government works off of maximum efficiency. And allowing only straight people the privilege to marry is incorporating such a policy. By doing that, we, and they, at least know it works a great deal. By allowing it to gays, however, it doesn't work at all.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
The government works off of maximum efficiency.
which country do you live in?
Because my government spent a good hundred thousand dollars to rush senators back to washington to vote on a case involving one woman who was brain dead.
Currently my government is wasting billions on a war because they didn't spend a million or so to properly analyze how to most efficiently occupy and stabilize the country.
Bow ties are coool.
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Pariah, if you think the government is built for maximum efficiency, stand in line at the BMV. Or worse, try calling them.
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He said the government works off of maximum efficiency, not that it works WITH maximum efficiency.
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And that changes what, hm?
I'm not even sure what the heck he means by "working off of maximum efficiency." Sounds like jargon...
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2005-08-18 4:21 PM.
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I would assume, and Pariah is free to correct me, that Pariah is pointing out that our government works off taxes and the most tax revenue is produced by an economy working at maximum efficiency.
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The economy can't work at maximum efficiency.
Plus, r3x's point still stands.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I would assume, and Pariah is free to correct me, that Pariah is pointing out that our government works off taxes and the most tax revenue is produced by an economy working at maximum efficiency.
PREZACTLY!!
As Wednesday said, there's obviously no way to get anything working at maximum efficiency--Especially not a government--But there is such thing as achieving the closest thing to it. And that's exactly what allowance of marriage for only straight people is.
The government doesn't work through selective cases, only through systems that work as efficiently as possible through bulk or majority.
Quote:
Steve T said:
Exactly.
That wa sa lot of words with no applicable meaning.
Two men could do it. Two women could do it. A man and a woman could do it. There is no difference in the efficiency there.
There's efficiency in adherence to the likelihood of kids and what environments they grow up in through straight marriage.
I don't know what you mean by "do it".
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But according to your argument, Pariah, black people and women still shouldn't be able to vote, correct?
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That's what I wondered when you made your argument.
But to answer your question, nope, it isn't. It's a serious question since each vote COSTS the government money and allowing everyone to vote is economically inefficient.
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I still think you're being snarky here. You've sparated black people and women...Why not separate every other ethnic group there is if that's gonna be your attitude. Or is this some sort of point that says women and black people don't think like white men?
Anyway, that wouldn't be an aspiration of maximum efficiency since women and African Americans, who are allowed to vote, are mostly a conglomerance of working citizens.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I still think you're being snarky here. You've sparated black people and women...Why not separate every other ethnic group there is if that's gonna be your attitude. Or is this some sort of point that says women and black people don't think like white men?
Come now. You're just being silly. I asked about black people and women because they were given the right to vote respectively by the 15th and 19th Amendments--that is to say, through legislative action.
By your argument, those were both bad moves because they were economically inefficient.
Quote:
Pariah said:
Anyway, that wouldn't be an aspiration of maximum efficiency since women and African Americans, who are allowed to vote, are mostly a conglomerance of working citizens.
What? Are you saying that they shouldn't have been given the right or that the right shouldn't be taken away?
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
By your argument, those were both bad moves because they were economically inefficient.
Ah. Understood.
Nah. The government has to help its citizens. It needs to understand what they want or that decreases morale. Since black people and women are apart of the laboring and consumerist wheel, having their opinions in vote-form makes for more efficiency.
Quote:
Wednesday said:
What? Are you saying that they shouldn't have been given the right or that the right shouldn't be taken away?
Uh....That second one. The right shouldn't be taken away since they've been representatives of the working class since the ratification of 15th and 19th ammendments. Technically, they should be given voting status even before then since they're citizens. But I'm just saying it's their ability to work that makes their opinions valuable.
Last edited by Pariah; 2005-08-18 6:56 PM.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
That's what I wondered when you made your argument.
But to answer your question, nope, it isn't. It's a serious question since each vote COSTS the government money and allowing everyone to vote is economically inefficient.
This is a brilliant statement. It is economically ineffecient, temporally inefficient, and mechanically ineffecient. It is far more efficient to have fewer and fewer people voting. In fact, a totally centralized, singular power yields a greater (the greatest?) governmental efficiency (if "working from maximum efficiency" is your goal).
Thus, government, the more it works for the people, of the people, and by the people, is by DESIGN less than maximally efficient. In fact, efficiency is NOT the goal of a Republic form of government.
It's all about equal protection under the law, folks.
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However, their opinions are necessary for a working democratic society. Homosexual couples are in no way necessary. It is, in fact, detrimental for a working marriage tax-cut policy.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Since black people and women are apart of the laboring and consumerist wheel, having their opinions in vote-form makes for more efficiency.
Ok, by your, ahem, logic, anyone who does not work (therefore, is not a part of the "laboring" aspect of society) should have their right to vote stripped from them.
And frankly, you fail to even exhibit internal logic to your own point because the female in the workplace was a rare event circa 1920 and the ratification of the 19th Amendment.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Ok, by your, ahem, logic, anyone who does not work (therefore, is not a part of the "laboring" aspect of society) should have their right to vote stripped from them.
I WISH!
But you miss the point. Because the majority are/were working, it would be more accurate (efficient) to go on that ratio.
Quote:
And frankly, you fail to even exhibit internal logic to your own point because the female in the workplace was a rare event circa 1920 and the ratification of the 19th Amendment.
They raised the kids. I think that's enough.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
And frankly, you fail to even exhibit internal logic to your own point because the female in the workplace was a rare event circa 1920 and the ratification of the 19th Amendment.
They raised the kids. I think that's enough.
Your logic is falling apart, Pariah. I suggest bowing out while you can.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I would assume, and Pariah is free to correct me, that Pariah is pointing out that our government works off taxes and the most tax revenue is produced by an economy working at maximum efficiency.
going on taxes-and this might not have made national news but it was in the local papers-when SF allowed gay couples to file to be married they collected about $50,000 in fees for that few week period.
That helped the local economy and made people feel equal. Everybody won.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Your logic is falling apart, Pariah. I suggest bowing out while you can.
Okay, lets hear it. How is the mother not a valuable commodity in that rite?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
That's what I wondered when you made your argument.
But to answer your question, nope, it isn't. It's a serious question since each vote COSTS the government money and allowing everyone to vote is economically inefficient.
This is a brilliant statement. It is economically ineffecient, temporally inefficient, and mechanically ineffecient. It is far more efficient to have fewer and fewer people voting. In fact, a totally centralized, singular power yields a greater (the greatest?) governmental efficiency (if "working from maximum efficiency" is your goal).
Thus, government, the more it works for the people, of the people, and by the people, is by DESIGN less than maximally efficient. In fact, efficiency is NOT the goal of a Republic form of government.
It's all about equal protection under the law, folks.
Thank r3x for that. He made the point a page ago, but was ignored.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
going on taxes-and this might not have made national news but it was in the local papers-when SF allowed gay couples to file to be married they collected about $50,000 in fees for that few week period.
That helped the local economy and made people feel equal. Everybody won.
Until that $50,000 and then some is takin' away through marital tax-cuts that don't apply to the homosexual requisite.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Your logic is falling apart, Pariah. I suggest bowing out while you can.
Okay, lets hear it. How is the mother not a valuable commodity in that rite?
You view it as devaluing the mother.
It isn't about that at all.
It's about viewing EVERYONE on equal footing with respect to the civil benefits and responsibilities that accrue from being married.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
That's what I wondered when you made your argument.
But to answer your question, nope, it isn't. It's a serious question since each vote COSTS the government money and allowing everyone to vote is economically inefficient.
This is a brilliant statement. It is economically ineffecient, temporally inefficient, and mechanically ineffecient. It is far more efficient to have fewer and fewer people voting. In fact, a totally centralized, singular power yields a greater (the greatest?) governmental efficiency (if "working from maximum efficiency" is your goal).
Thus, government, the more it works for the people, of the people, and by the people, is by DESIGN less than maximally efficient. In fact, efficiency is NOT the goal of a Republic form of government.
It's all about equal protection under the law, folks.
Thank r3x for that. He made the point a page ago, but was ignored.
I apologize for not giving credit where it's due. r3x, it was a brilliant point.
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Pariah seems to be under the assumption that gay people sit around in orgies all day doing nothing but fucking.
Gay people do actually hold down jobs and raise children. Therefore, they're as much a contributing part of the economy/society as anyone else. And their morale is effected by being limited in rights.
And if their rights are limited, same as blacks in the south circa 1960, then we'll end up with the same sort of protests that happened in the south (the bus boycott alone hurt the economy of the region).
And, Pariah, you wouldn't have the balls to say to Wednesday about black people that you say to Jim/G-man about gay people.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
It's about viewing EVERYONE on equal footing with respect to the civil benefits and responsibilities that accrue from being married.
Being married isn't about "respect" or "rights". It's a privilege that is assigned the task of paying back what it's given through families with higher morale and consumerist ability.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Gay people do actually hold down jobs and raise children. Therefore, they're as much a contributing part of the economy/society as anyone else. And their morale is effected by being limited in rights.
You're talking about adopting. In which case, people are given help from the government to raise that child depending on whether or not they need it. So there's no need for a tax-cut there.
Quote:
And if their rights are limited, same as blacks in the south circa 1960, then we'll end up with the same sort of protests that happened in the south (the bus boycott alone hurt the economy of the region).
Once again: Marriage isn't a right.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Being married isn't about "respect" or "rights". It's a privilege that is assigned the task of paying back what it's given through families with higher morale and consumerist ability.
This logic has already been shot down by r3x.
Gay people work and raise children.
And many str8 marrieds do not raise children.
Now, by your logic, those str8s who are married but have no children should be compelled to divorce or have their marriages legally annulled because they do not meet one of your criteria for being married.
Further, those str8s who are married but struggle with their "consumerists abilities" should be compelled to divorce or have their marriages legally annulled because they do not meet one of your criteria for being married.
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