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Awwww! Jim's acting bitter. Innit it cute?
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When the news announced the scandal they mentioned "the leader of a large curch organization in the Springs..." and I was hoping it was James Dobson. Captain New Life getting caught in his hateful lazy-people-church hypocracy is golden though. Mom is so so so pissed. I can't stop laughing.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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I thought you said your mom was Catholic. Why would she be pissed at a denominational scandel?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
...he paid for sex...now that's giving being gay a bad name. Chatrooms and sites like manhunt.net--no need to pay for sex anymore, Teddy. Even for an old hypocrite like you...
I'm guessing its sorta like something Charlie Sheen once said about why he, a movie star, paid for hookers from Heidi Fleiss.
Sheen said he didn't pay for the sex. He paid for the fact they'd leave when he was done.
Haggard probably paid because he figured it would buy silence.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
...he paid for sex...now that's giving being gay a bad name. Chatrooms and sites like manhunt.net--no need to pay for sex anymore, Teddy. Even for an old hypocrite like you...
I'm guessing its sorta like something Charlie Sheen once said about why he, a movie star, paid for hookers from Heidi Fleiss.
Sheen said he didn't pay for the sex. He paid for the fact they'd leave when he was done.
Haggard probably paid because he figured it would buy silence.
I guess he'll be wanting his money back now.....
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
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Pariah said:
I thought you said your mom was Catholic. Why would she be pissed at a denominational scandel?
Because "he has done a lot of good in this city." I asked for examples and she gave me, "megachurches." And I asked wtf a megachurch is and she said, "a church with a congregation of thousands." I asked why that was a good thing (because large mobs often times are BAD things) and she changed the subject like G-Man and I asked for a better example of the "many things" he did and she said something about small churches being part of the bigger New Life church and all these people finding god... so I countered with how so many of the New Lifers are hypocrytical ho-beasts that punch their 'get in heaven free' card each week and it is just fitting that the biggest of the ho-beasts was outted and things got confusing and we both gave up and I went to bed.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Uschi said (emphasis added):
When the news announced the scandal they mentioned "the leader of a large curch organization in the Springs..." and I was hoping it was James Dobson. Captain New Life getting caught in his hateful lazy-people-church hypocracy is golden though. Mom is so so so pissed. I can't stop laughing.
I'm not especially surprised at your attitude, but what's the 'lazy-people-church' part about? You probably know more about that particular church than I've heard, being from that area.
And actually, it wouldn't happen to Dobson. Despite the amount of spite people on these boards may have toward him (largely on the basis of things said and written by random minor faces in an organization he founded but doesn't do nearly as much in anymore), I'm certain his actions are comparatively far more consistent with his beliefs than Haggard, whom I've been wary of for years.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
Uschi said (emphasis added):
When the news announced the scandal they mentioned "the leader of a large curch organization in the Springs..." and I was hoping it was James Dobson. Captain New Life getting caught in his hateful lazy-people-church hypocracy is golden though. Mom is so so so pissed. I can't stop laughing.
I'm not especially surprised at your attitude, but what's the 'lazy-people-church' part about? You probably know more about that particular church than I've heard, being from that area.
And actually, it wouldn't happen to Dobson. Despite the amount of spite people on these boards may have toward him (largely on the basis of things said and written by random minor faces in an organization he founded but doesn't do nearly as much in anymore), I'm certain his actions are comparatively far more consistent with his beliefs than Haggard, whom I've been wary of for years.
Lazy-people-church meaning those stamp-your-ticket Christians. The people that attend Church and sing and shit but as soon as they leave they're being little sluts or abusing shit and generally behaving un-Christ-like toward their fellow humans. But they still have the arrogance because THEY're going to HEAVEN.
I have a bit of a bias because Mom's thrown me into their midst a few times. Once, when she was convinced I was possessed by a demon spirit (turns out I was just really depressed. good one, Ma!) and took me to a Celebacy Rally. She dropped me off and shoved me in the door and left me there for five hours. I tried sneaking out thrice and the bastards caught me. ANYway, first we were locked in a small auditorium while a live band played too-loud Christian Rock at us. This was the impetus for my first and second escape attempt. Then we had these "classes" to "teach" us the Word of God (i.e. shit I learned when I was five in CCD) - in the group I was in, nobody knew ANY of the answers except me. I eventually stopped raising my hand and just answered the crappy trivia. Long(er) story short(er), it ended in a Mass where we all went up and recieved promise rings saying we would save ourselves for marriage (or, if we were already the loose little sluts I recognized from school, start fresh 'cause Jesus forgives everything) and signed a little card. It was queer as hell. I threw mine at my mom's car when she wasn't around later. The point, everyone in my school that attended the shitty thing because they wanted to wore their little celebicy rings, even at school, even screwing eachother in the closet in the Dungeon (boiler room / basement / freshmen locker room at the school).
That's the most personal of examples I can give for the church congregation being full of lazy and hypocritical arsehole whores.
And I know Dobson will never be found out for anything. He actually believes the shit he says.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Uschi said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
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Uschi said (emphasis added):
When the news announced the scandal they mentioned "the leader of a large curch organization in the Springs..." and I was hoping it was James Dobson. Captain New Life getting caught in his hateful lazy-people-church hypocracy is golden though. Mom is so so so pissed. I can't stop laughing.
I'm not especially surprised at your attitude, but what's the 'lazy-people-church' part about? You probably know more about that particular church than I've heard, being from that area.
And actually, it wouldn't happen to Dobson. Despite the amount of spite people on these boards may have toward him (largely on the basis of things said and written by random minor faces in an organization he founded but doesn't do nearly as much in anymore), I'm certain his actions are comparatively far more consistent with his beliefs than Haggard, whom I've been wary of for years.
Lazy-people-church meaning those stamp-your-ticket Christians. The people that attend Church and sing and shit but as soon as they leave they're being little sluts or abusing shit and generally behaving un-Christ-like toward their fellow humans. But they still have the arrogance because THEY're going to HEAVEN.
Can't argue with personal experience. I know a lot of those. I also know a lot of people who look just as serious on Sunday morning, then go out... and actually live what they believe. There are most likely more of the first bunch than I've seen, and most likely more of the second bunch than you've seen. I really do commiserate with your negative experiences with Christianity, but I'd just like to maintain that the messenger is not always the message, and I'd like to encourage you to keep looking for the ones who really mean what they say.
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And I know Dobson will never be found out for anything. He actually believes the shit he says.
What is it that you feel he's saying? Maybe you and I hear different parts of it. I hear it all the time because he (unlike many of the people attached to his foundation) is a member of my denomination. Are you sure the words that have been attributed to him - and obviously their intent - haven't somehow been taken out of context or outright altered, telephone-style, by all the people who relay them down the line to you? Just curious.
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Israel Refuses to Ban Gay Pride Parade
By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer
56 minutes ago
JERUSALEM - Israel's attorney general refused to ban a gay pride parade in Jerusalem despite threats of violence from ultra-Orthodox Jews, instructing police and gay activists to try to work out a compromise, the police commander said Sunday.
A Justice Ministry statement said Attorney General Meni Mazuz ordered police to meet with gay activists "to work out a reasonable alternative proposal" for the march, set for Friday on a route through the middle of the city. The meeting is to take place Monday, gay activists said, and a compromise was likely.
Ultra-Orthodox Jews have rioted in Jerusalem nearly every night over the past week, burning garbage cans, blocking roads and assaulting police officers in an attempt to get the authorities to call off the march, approved months ago by the Supreme Court. Many religious Jews, Muslims and Christians see homosexuality as a sin and the march as an affront to the sanctity of the holy city.
Police said Sunday that the danger of violence was too great to allow the march to proceed, but left the final decision to Mazuz.
"We understand that the potential danger to life and bloodshed is greater than that to free speech," said police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld.
Ella Canetti, one of the organizers of the gay pride march, said they would meet police on Monday and were willing to be flexible.
"We are prepared to alter the route of our march to meet police concerns," she told The Associated Press. "According to what we understand, a modest gay pride march will take place in Jerusalem."
After meeting Mazuz, Jerusalem police commander Ilan Franco said, "It may be that there will be a march and a closing event at place which both sides decide is reasonable and minimizes potential damage and danger."
But it was unclear whether such a compromise would satisfy the ultra-Orthodox Jewish opponents.
At last year's march, an ultra-Orthodox man stabbed and wounded three participants.
There was some dissent Sunday among gay activists. Saar Nathaniel, a gay member of Jerusalem's City Council and one of the march's planners, suggested Sunday that gay activists cancel the march in return for ultra-Orthodox members of parliament supporting gay rights legislation.
A gay columnist in the liberal Haaretz daily called on organizers to show sensitivity for Jerusalem's special status as a city holy to three faiths and move the march to the more permissive Tel Aviv.
Jerusalem police said six policemen have been hurt in the clashes over the past week and 60 rioters have been arrested. Over the weekend, the disturbances spread outside Jerusalem to the ultra-Orthodox city of Bnei Brak, near Tel Aviv, where rioters blocked one of Israel's main highways with burning tires.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Can't argue with personal experience. I know a lot of those. I also know a lot of people who look just as serious on Sunday morning, then go out... and actually live what they believe. There are most likely more of the first bunch than I've seen, and most likely more of the second bunch than you've seen. I really do commiserate with your negative experiences with Christianity, but I'd just like to maintain that the messenger is not always the message, and I'd like to encourage you to keep looking for the ones who really mean what they say.
Don't get me wrong, I respect people who live their faith. I know/have known a LOT of people that follow their religous moral structures as best as they can. I have met Zero New Lifers like that is all. And there are SOOO many here.
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And I know Dobson will never be found out for anything. He actually believes the shit he says.
What is it that you feel he's saying? Maybe you and I hear different parts of it. I hear it all the time because he (unlike many of the people attached to his foundation) is a member of my denomination. Are you sure the words that have been attributed to him - and obviously their intent - haven't somehow been taken out of context or outright altered, telephone-style, by all the people who relay them down the line to you? Just curious.
Well, some of the stuff is attributed to him via the newspaper (Colorado Springs Gazette) or the videos my mom bought of his and made us kids watch when I was in Jr High. One of the things that pisses me off the most is his stance on homosexuals and the insistance that they are misguided, confused, or deluded into believing they are gay. I don't like his "we cure you of being gay" programs (also see the post I made about Norman the dog that says Moo for more info). For the most part I can't give other examples. I split off many years ago and find I am happier not paying attention to him. So I don't remember everything I used to be pissed at. I'm sure Mom has the videos around here somewhere though...
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
...he paid for sex...now that's giving being gay a bad name. Chatrooms and sites like manhunt.net--no need to pay for sex anymore, Teddy. Even for an old hypocrite like you...
I'm guessing its sorta like something Charlie Sheen once said about why he, a movie star, paid for hookers from Heidi Fleiss.
Sheen said he didn't pay for the sex. He paid for the fact they'd leave when he was done.
Haggard probably paid because he figured it would buy silence.
I guess he'll be wanting his money back now.....
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
...he paid for sex...now that's giving being gay a bad name. Chatrooms and sites like manhunt.net--no need to pay for sex anymore, Teddy. Even for an old hypocrite like you...
I'm guessing its sorta like something Charlie Sheen once said about why he, a movie star, paid for hookers from Heidi Fleiss.
Sheen said he didn't pay for the sex. He paid for the fact they'd leave when he was done.
Haggard probably paid because he figured it would buy silence.
I guess he'll be wanting his money back now.....
If Ted figured no one would ever find out about his gay side, then yeah, I can believe he's dumb enough to think one can "pay for silence."
We all wear a green carnation.
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South African Panel OKs Gay Marriage
By CLARE NULLIS, Associated Press Writer
Thu Nov 9, 4:17 PM
CAPE TOWN, South Africa - A parliamentary committee approved proposals for same-sex marriages in South Africa on Thursday, clearing the way for the passage of legislation that would be unique on a deeply conservative continent.
The compromise, reached after heated public debate, upset religious groups, traditionalists and even some members of the governing African National Congress while gay rights activists said it didn't go far enough.
"It's been a very difficult time. It was a major challenge," said Patrick Chauke, chairman of the Home Affairs Portfolio Committee, which spent weeks touring the country to gauge public opinion and received nearly 6,000 written comments.
The civil unions bill will go to a full session of parliament Tuesday. Despite the unease in the ANC ranks, it is expected to pass as lawmakers have been ordered to follow the party line and told there is little room for maneuver.
Denmark in 1989 became the first country to legislate for same-sex partnerships, and several other European Union members have followed suit. In the United States, only Massachusetts allows gay marriage. Vermont and Connecticut permit civil unions, and more than a dozen states grant lesser legal rights to gay couples.
In Africa, homosexuality is still largely taboo. It is illegal in Zimbabwe, Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, Tanzania, Ghana and most other sub-Saharan countries.
South Africa recognized gay rights in the constitution adopted after apartheid ended in 1994 _ the first in the world to prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. But the government long opposed attempts to extend the definition of marriage in court to include same-sex couples in the mostly Christian country.
Married couples currently have numerous rights still denied gay couples, including the ability to make decisions on each other's behalf in medical emergencies, and inheritance rights if a partner dies without a will.
South Africa's Constitutional Court ruled last year that the country's marriage legislation was illegal because it discriminated against same-sex couples. It gave the government until Dec. 1 to adopt new legislation.
The bill provides for the "voluntary union of two persons, which is solemnized and registered by either a marriage or civil union." It does not specify whether they are heterosexual or gay partnerships.
But it also says marriage officers need not perform a ceremony between same-sex couples if doing so would conflict with his or her "conscience, religion and belief." That could leave gay couples shopping for someone to perform their ceremony.
Gay rights groups welcomed the inclusion of the term "marriage" in the legislation but said they were disappointed that homosexual couples were being treated differently from heterosexual couples because of the opt-out clause.
"Everyone should be governed by one law," said Vista Kaupa of the Triangle Project, which provides support for gays and lesbians. "Marriage should be for everyone. There should be one encompassing umbrella for everyone."
Jonathan Berger of the AIDS Law Project said the wording implied that "something inherently problematic about same-sex marriage."
He predicted that the bill would be open to challenge on grounds that it does not comply with the Constitutional Court ruling for full equality before the law.
Marie Fourie and Cecelia Bonthuys, a lesbian couple from Pretoria, sued the government for not recognizing their October 2002 wedding. The government lost the case, as well as the appeals.
Chauke, who put aside his own religious convictions to steer the bill through the Home Affairs committee, said the final compromise was a "wonderful" product.
"We've arrived at the point where we've met the constitutional requirement that everybody is equal before the law," he told journalists.
The main opposition Democratic Alliance said it had "serious problems" with the bill and complained that it was rushed through the committee on the final day without a vote and without time for adequate debate.
"One of the problems is to call same-sex unions a marriage," Terius Delport said.
Steve Swart of the African Christian Democratic Party was visibly upset.
"It would be the first time that an African country has same-sex marriage. This we cannot accept," he said.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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How about that? So, Britain, Canada, and maybe soon, South Africa will have gay marriage! But not in the United States of Jesus. Oh, no. Not here, not ever! 
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Actually, I know Jesus is not to blame for gay marriage NOT being passed in the USA, it is politics... the politicians want to remain in office, so they vote against gay marriage because many of the idiots that voted for them only did so in order to prevent gay marriage from ever happening in this country.
And THIS backwards attitude, in turn, is fueled by both fear and ignorance.
And by that one fucking line in the bible about homosexuality. A line, not written by GOD , but by a man who was most likely gay himself, fighting it and deeply ashamed of his own sexuality. And terrified to explore it and be himself.
They can rationalize it all they want. They can quote the bible all they want.
It all comes down to hate. And using the bible as an excuse to hate.
Is that what they think God wants of them?
That isn't what Jesus talked about.
He spoke of loving one another. Of being good and doing good deeds.
He did not say, " Love everyone except for queers."
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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This was an accidental double post.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
It all comes down to hate. And using the bible as an excuse to hate.
I find this statement to be as narrow minded as you accuse the other side of being. I don;t hate you, Jerry. I think you're a good guy, I like reading your posts and if we ever hung out I think we'd get along fine. However I also believe in teh Bible. I don't think it's fair or productive to say anyone who dissagrees with you on this one issue is full of hate directed towards you.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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I like you, too, WBAM. All I am saying is that there are plenty of people with big issues who do use the bible as an excuse to hate. Not you. No way! But there are people who use that one line in the bible as an excuse to hate.
I have always believed the Bible is an incredible tool for good!
But, that which can be used for good can also be used for evil purposes, ie, hating of gays.
I am in NO way implying that the bible is evil.
But I do think it was a truly misguided soul who wrote that abomination line.
And : I did not say or even imply that anyone who disagrees with with me is full of hate for me PERSONALLY, but gay is what I am, and when I see those lines of people in the news carrying signs that say things like, " Go to hell you gay Aids bastards" and " God hates Queers", well, um, I will take this personally because I am gay.
I realize there are different levels of acceptance. There are gray areas in this issue.
And I do have friends online and in real time who are worried that I will go to hell because I am gay. They do not hate me, but they can't get past that one line. Not all of them express such misgivings. They just accept me as I am, and I accept them as they are, too.
I believe in the bible, however, I don't agree with that one line.
Sorry, I know this post rambled a bit, but I like clarity. I don't like to be misunderstood, and I hope this explains how I feel in a non combative way.
That is the best way to debate an issue.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
And : I did not say or even imply that anyone who disagrees with with me is full of hate for me PERSONALLY, but gay is what I am, and when I see those lines of people in the news carrying signs that say things like, " Go to hell you gay Aids bastards" and " God hates Queers", well, um, I will take this personally because I am gay.
OK, There are definately hatefull people out there. Not just hatefull, but evil and anti-christ like. When I see someone holding one of those "God hates fags" signs I make sure not to stand within a hundred yards just incase God chooses to burn them to a crisp at that time and I'm sure they will burn to a crisp at some point. I would just warn you against painting with such a broad brush that you assume anyone who dissagrees with your lifestyle does so out of hate.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Understood. 
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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San Francisco Appeals Gay Marriage Order
By DAVID KRAVETS, Associated Press Writer
Tue Nov 14, 8:12 AM
SAN FRANCISCO - A month after an appeals court ruled against same-sex marriage, the city and about a dozen homosexual couples have filed an appeal to the California Supreme Court.
Gay marriage advocates hope to overturn the ruling that said limiting marriage to a man and a woman does not violate the constitutional rights of gays and lesbians.
If the high court takes the case, a decision on same-sex marriage is likely a year or more away. The justices have 90 days to announce their intentions.
In October, the 1st District Court of Appeal ruled in a 2-1 vote that, among other things, it was not the judiciary's role to define marriage _ since 61 percent of California voters in 2000 declared marriage as a union between a man and a woman under Proposition 22.
The appeals court also ruled that the state's existing marriage laws do not discriminate because gays and lesbians get most all the rights of marriage the state confers to heterosexual married couples.
The seven-member Supreme Court is not obligated to review the appellate court's decision, which overturned an earlier decision by a San Francisco trial judge. If it does not, the ruling stands.
San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom put the marriage debate in the national spotlight by allowing same-sex couples to get married at City Hall in 2004. California's justices halted the wedding spree and voided the 4,037 marriage licenses while sidestepping the core constitutional question, ruling the mayor did not have authority to make marriage law.
Since 2004, when Massachusetts became the first state to legalize gay marriage, advocates have seen California as one of their best hopes for expanding the marriage movement.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Gay Marriage Galvanizes Canada’s Religious RightToday across the country, the gay marriage issue [has] galvanized conservative Christian groups to enter politics like never before.
Before now, the Christian right was not a political force in this mostly secular, liberal country. But it is coalescing with new clout and credibility, similar to the evangelical Christian movement in the United States in the 1980s, though not nearly on the same scale.
Today, half a dozen organizations like the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada work full time in Ottawa, four of which opened offices in the past year, all seeking to reverse the law allowing gay marriage.
They represent just some of the dozens of well-organized conservative Christian groups around the country and more than a hundred grass-roots campaigns focused on the issue. In recent months, religious groups have held rallies, signed petitions, drafted resolutions and stepped up their efforts to lobby politicians to overturn the law.
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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That's how it is when you are gay! You have to fight for your rights, you get them, and the next day, people want to take them away from you!
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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faggot 15000+ posts
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Gay Marriage Galvanizes Canada’s Religious Right
[...]
That's sad. These people are raging mad about fags getting hitched and yet are less active about 'babies getting murdered' as they might refer to it.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/17/opinion/17rivkin.html?_r=1&oref=sloginOp-Ed Contributor Conservatives: Keep Gay Marriage Out of the Courts By DAVID B. RIVKIN Jr. and LEE A. CASEY Published: November 17, 2006 Washington CONSERVATIVES have consoled themselves since Election Day with the knowledge that many “conservative” social issues did well — including (and especially) the eight state “marriage amendments” on the ballot — even if the Republican candidates faltered. These marriage measures, of which only Arizona’s was defeated, generally prevent recognition of gay marriages by defining marriage as a “union between a man and a woman” in the state constitutions. More than half of the states now have such constitutional provisions (some of which would also forbid same-sex civil unions), and conservatives need to reconsider whether that’s really what we want. There are, in fact, some very good reasons conservatives should oppose this approach. The definition of marriage is, of course, of critical importance to individuals on both sides of the issue and to society at large. But at least since independence, the question of who may marry and under what conditions has been the province of the state legislatures. And it should have remained that way. The justifications for stripping the legislatures of authority in this area and settling the matter in a state’s constitution are wanting. It’s true that courts in certain states — for example, Massachusetts — have interposed themselves in this debate, misconstruing “equal protection” guarantees as requiring recognition of gay marriages. But errant or aggressive judges can be corrected by amendments that simply deny the state courts authority over this issue, reserving the definition and regulation of marriage to the legislatures alone. Moreover, the meaning of marriage, as important as it is, is no more crucial than many other issues of individual autonomy and morality that have also historically been decided by the legislatures. These include adoption and child-welfare laws, as well as a host of criminal and other regulatory measures of the greatest moment. Indeed, cluttering state constitutions with the disposition of many difficult social issues — and this process will probably go on, and even accelerate, especially if all of the states choose to define marriage in their constitutions — is likely to empower the judiciary more. This paradoxical and unwelcome result would arise because some of the newly enshrined constitutional definitions and guarantees are sure to conflict with one another, leaving the courts the only venue for resolving the tension. Conservatives should find this outcome highly unpalatable. At the same time, leaving the marriage issue to the state legislatures has many benefits. As Edmund Burke taught, time-tested institutions and practices should be changed only upon the clearest need, and then only to the extent necessary. If the courts in some states have trespassed on the legislatures’ traditional and legitimate authority over marriage, they can be checked without altering the otherwise established norm of legislative power in this area. Also, allowing the issue to be decided by state legislatures would be in the best tradition of American federalism: the states act as laboratories of political change, and remain free to give divergent answers to difficult social questions. Operating within the federalist context, state legislatures are likely to enact different definitions of marriage, some allowing same-sex unions, others banning them. Significantly, the federal Defense of Marriage Act, signed by President Bill Clinton in 1996, already ensures that the choices of one state cannot be imposed on others. If that statute is ultimately found to be ineffective or unconstitutional, additional steps can be considered at the federal level to ensure that individual state choices are respected. If state legislatures were free to define and re-define marriage, we would have genuinely political solutions to an especially difficult and incendiary issue. Very few people do not hold deep convictions regarding same-sex marriage. To enshrine the definition of marriage in a state’s constitution removes the issue from the give-and-take of the normal political process. That process rarely produces an absolute victory for any side, but it also rarely results in absolute defeat. The outcome is never final; the defeated party can rally, regroup and try again. By contrast, a constitutional amendment resolves a policy issue with a sufficient finality to prompt a more or less permanent sense of injustice and bitterness on the losing side. Conservatives, religious conservatives especially, should understand these dynamics. In Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court granted victory on constitutional grounds to the abortion-rights position in the abortion debate, and that decision has polarized American politics for nearly two generations. America does not need another such issue. The wave of marriage amendments — at least those that go beyond removing the issue from judicial resolution — should stop. David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey are lawyers who served in the Justice Department under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush.
Beware the advice of successful people. They do not seek company.
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And the many continue to debate and decide the human rights of the few.....
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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I believe it's called democracy.
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Not from a certain point of view... mine.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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Which you're entitled to. But the point of putting those issues on ballots was to let the people decide. Different states produced different results, but in each case the people decided.
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Schlub 15000+ posts
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What's the problem?
allow people equal right to civil unions or what not!
call it cheese or fartanism for all i care!
let the church decide on what is and whom shall be married!
And, to be fair, one of my favorite friends there is blind and I take every opportunity available to make fun of that and we're still friends. That guy never fit there. He never got the spirit of the RKMBs. We're gonna keep an eye on the obits, see if he finally left or if he really did have a heart attack.
2,506,410.81 CAD Rack points
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The people decided, but of course, those who decided against gay unions and gay marriage are hetero, and many of them just believe being gay is a sin, or immoral, or just wrong.
I want to see gay marriage pass in the USA before I die.
Since I am nearly 50, that only leaves 30 years or so, maximum.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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You never know, Jerry. Zefram Cochrane could make his warp flight ahead of schedule, and your lifespan could be dramatically extended by Vulcan medical science!
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Quote:
sneaky bunny said:
What's the problem?
allow people equal right to civil unions or what not!
call it cheese or fartanism for all i care!
let the church decide on what is and whom shall be married!
This is it, right there. It is about the politicians wanting to stay in office, so they cater to the religious right which says, " Gay? Marry? No way, Jose!"
It is really about MONEY.
Politicians love their high paying jobs and cushy life styles.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
You never know, Jerry. Zefram Cochrane could make his warp flight ahead of schedule, and your lifespan could be dramatically extended by Vulcan medical science!
I'm afraid I'd have to be extremely long lived, like my "Grampa" character before gay marriage passes in the USA.. and, if some have their way, Civil Unions would be Verboten, too.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Joined: May 2003
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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Quote:
sneaky bunny said:
What's the problem?
allow people equal right to civil unions or what not!
call it cheese or fartanism for all i care!
let the church decide on what is and whom shall be married!
No, there ought to be seperation of church and state.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
Not from a certain point of view... mine.
Mine too. The only good thing is the GOP didn't get their people in along with these ballot initiatives.
BTW, me & the boyfriend have recently passed year 16 of being married in the real sense of the word.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
Not from a certain point of view... mine.
Mine too. The only good thing is the GOP didn't get their people in along with these ballot initiatives.
BTW, me & the boyfriend have recently passed year 16 of being married in the real sense of the word.
Congrats, MEM!! That's terrific!
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
Not from a certain point of view... mine.
How can it not be considered a democracy from your point of view? It's a majority decision, which is, by very definition, a "democracy."
You, yourself, have claimed to be a democrat in the past. Certainly you can't deprecciate the very system you endorse....Unless you're a tard.
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