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I am certain that GOD does not approve of blowing up people.
HELL Must be overflowing with Muslims by now!
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
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Quote:
Pig Iran said:
Killing and murder are two different things. You can kill someone who is going to kill you...a person can kill someone who murdered someone (eye for an eye-equal punishment for the crime).You can kill in war or battles if governments are at war. Murder is a cold blooded act that is unwarranted-murder is someone killing another for a pair of shoes.
You casually list occasions in which killing is justified such as taking an eye for an eye, killing at war. Others consider abortion justified, and in fact don't even call it killing. I don't think those reasons are valid and a lot of people in "our" side of the world feel the same way, so we already have discrepancies within western culture. In the end we're talking about reasons why taking another life can be right, which, keeping the obvious distances, is the same thing they're doing in the other side.
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the G-man said:
I didn't bother to read all that, but as near as I could tell it boiled down to "I hate Bush, so its okay that what seems like an entire religion encourages killing innocents."
Did I miss any nuance to what you wrote?
No, you forgot to mention that I hate freedom.
I'm impressed that you managed to get the subliminal anti-Bush message I included in my post. I thought I'd be on the safe side by, you know, not mentioning him, but obviously I was wrong. I can't get anything past you, you amerrrrican dog!
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
I am certain that GOD does not approve of blowing up people.
You forgot to specify that it's okay if the US government declares it is.
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I don't think it's right for ANYBODY to blow up ANYBODY else.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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You're being anti-American, Jerry.
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
you amerrrrican dog!
See, if English was your first language you would know that you spelled American wrong.
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"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
See, if English was your first language you would know that you spelled American wrong.
I wish I was an Amreican (did I get it right this time?), so I could spell properly and my opinion was an universal truth.
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
All cultures are not equal. Any culture that encourages people to strap bombs to themselves, and target civilians is the definition of inferior...
I thought you guys were arguing that a RELIGION encouraged that shit. Now it's a suddenly whole culture. In the end you're talking about people. You're saying people aren't equal. Equal! Such a silly word. To be used only in jokes and parties, never in amendments and the like.
Culture, religion...whatever. Getting strapped and taking out dance clubs and school buses is the way it is done for some people, as they taught through their religion and culture.
Any fuckhead that does that is not my equal.
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Pariah is the resident expert and he disagrees. In fact, if you kill someone for the right reason (= what you think is the right reason), it's so good it's not even murder!
Look, you guys are blowing up babies in Iraq. No one disputes that. But it's for the right reason, so it's okay. Guess what, boys and girls: radical islamists (= all islamists = all arabs = nuke em all!)
We do our best not to "blow up babies" in Iraq. With our technology and tactics, we do everything possible to target terrorists and not civilians. Civilian deaths are unavoidable, and always will be.
Our opponents on the other hand, don't care who they kill, and go out of thier way to kill civilians.
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ALSO think they're blowing up babies for the right reason! They bombed two towers to enforce what they believe in, well, you bombed two japanese cities for basically the same reason.
Not even close. The crazy as fuck terrorists attacked on 9-11 to start a war (again, attacking a civilian target). We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end a war that the Japanese started. They were given many chances to surrender before and after the bombs were dropped, and they refused.
We rebuilt Japan after the war...I don't think the Islamic fundamentalists would be as kind to us if they had their way.
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Everyone thinks they're right. Your crimes look as atrocious to them as theirs look to you. Granted, there's an obvious difference in scope that makes them the bigger nuts in the locker room (after all, I'm talking about radicals and not a whole culture even if you're not), but the fact that you're both blowing up babies when you could choose not to remains.
You're never gonna get along, first of all, because you both insist in judging a whole culture (do you even understand what "a whole culture" implies?) by their worst exponents, and secondly because you refuse to even consider viewing things from their perspective, which is how logic says problems should begin their solution. Not from the perspective of the terrorist (for fuck's sake), from the perspective of the guy in the street who leads a normal hard-working Allah-fearing life and is secretely glad them american infidels were given a taste of their own medicine, even though he generally doesn't say it out loud. It should be easy to get on his position, cause you feel exactly the same towards them. Both sides think they would live in peace if the other side ceased to exist, but you're both wrong.
I never judged the entire religion or culture. Peaceful Muslims do exist. Why they don't do something about the those who kill in Allah's name, I have no idea. There obviously are some aspects of the religion that cause and encourage the insanity of the attacks on 9-11, or the suicide attacks in Isreal, or the bloodshed in Iraq, or the violence against women in Afghanistan, or the human rights abuses in the Sudan, or the...
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Mxy said:
You casually list occasions in which killing is justified such as taking an eye for an eye, killing at war. Others consider abortion justified, and in fact don't even call it killing. I don't think those reasons are valid and a lot of people in "our" side of the world feel the same way, so we already have discrepancies within western culture. In the end we're talking about reasons why taking another life can be right, which, keeping the obvious distances, is the same thing they're doing in the other side.
I am saying:
I think there is a difference between murder and killing. I cannot get any clearer than that. I am also not casually listing anything-I'm just separating myself from the argument, and trying to explain certain aspects.
I think abortion is wrong, but it's legal where I live so I pretty much just shut my mouth about the issue. Most states in the US do not follow through on the death penalty, even if the criminal was sentenced to death (and the state itself may not have a death penalty). I pretty much keep my mouth shut on that issue too.
I'm not a warmonger, Mxy. I don't think we should be in the Middle East, or Korea, or Europe, or Japan, but our troops are stationed there or fighting there. These are not my decisions, and I do not believe in the ultra nationalized/federal defense policies currently being practiced. Again, I voted but didn't vote for Bush or Kerry so I really can't say much about it other than I'm against it. I'm a Constitutionalist, and I believe in state rights and state power, and as little federal power as feasibly possible.
I do believe in an "Eye for an eye", Mxy-in the principle. The principle is that you take an eye for an eye-an equal measure. You don't take a hand off if someone steals a loaf of bread-you make them pay the person who was robbed or give the robbed compensation equal to the stolen bread. If a person kills an innocent civilian they should lose their own right to life, because they stole it from someone else. A life can only replace a life, but it doesn't mean you should take two or three in return for the one.
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Quote:
Everyone thinks they're right. Your crimes look as atrocious to them as theirs look to you. Granted, there's an obvious difference in scope that makes them the bigger nuts in the locker room (after all, I'm talking about radicals and not a whole culture even if you're not), but the fact that you're both blowing up babies when you could choose not to remains.
You're never gonna get along, first of all, because you both insist in judging a whole culture (do you even understand what "a whole culture" implies?) by their worst exponents, and secondly because you refuse to even consider viewing things from their perspective, which is how logic says problems should begin their solution. Not from the perspective of the terrorist (for fuck's sake), from the perspective of the guy in the street who leads a normal hard-working Allah-fearing life and is secretely glad them american infidels were given a taste of their own medicine, even though he generally doesn't say it out loud. It should be easy to get on his position, cause you feel exactly the same towards them. Both sides think they would live in peace if the other side ceased to exist, but you're both wrong.
I never judged the entire religion or culture. Peaceful Muslims do exist. Why they don't do something about the those who kill in Allah's name, I have no idea. There obviously are some aspects of the religion that cause and encourage the insanity of the attacks on 9-11, or the suicide attacks in Isreal, or the bloodshed in Iraq, or the violence against women in Afghanistan, or the human rights abuses in the Sudan, or the...
The peaceful Muslims are afraid of speaking out against the Crazy Muslims, lest they themsleves become the next target of the Crazy Muslims.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
All cultures are not equal. Any culture that encourages people to strap bombs to themselves, and target civilians is the definition of inferior...
I thought you guys were arguing that a RELIGION encouraged that shit. Now it's a suddenly whole culture. In the end you're talking about people. You're saying people aren't equal. Equal! Such a silly word. To be used only in jokes and parties, never in amendments and the like.
Quote:
the G-man said:
(b) murder was a mortal sin.
Pariah is the resident expert and he disagrees. In fact, if you kill someone for the right reason (= what you think is the right reason), it's so good it's not even murder!
Look, you guys are blowing up babies in Iraq. No one disputes that. But it's for the right reason, so it's okay. Guess what, boys and girls: radical islamists (= all islamists = all arabs = nuke em all!) ALSO think they're blowing up babies for the right reason! They bombed two towers to enforce what they believe in, well, you bombed two japanese cities for basically the same reason. Everyone thinks they're right. Your crimes look as atrocious to them as theirs look to you. Granted, there's an obvious difference in scope that makes them the bigger nuts in the locker room (after all, I'm talking about radicals and not a whole culture even if you're not), but the fact that you're both blowing up babies when you could choose not to remains.
You're never gonna get along, first of all, because you both insist in judging a whole culture (do you even understand what "a whole culture" implies?) by their worst exponents, and secondly because you refuse to even consider viewing things from their perspective, which is how logic says problems should begin their solution. Not from the perspective of the terrorist (for fuck's sake), from the perspective of the guy in the street who leads a normal hard-working Allah-fearing life and is secretely glad them american infidels were given a taste of their own medicine, even though he generally doesn't say it out loud. It should be easy to get on his position, cause you feel exactly the same towards them. Both sides think they would live in peace if the other side ceased to exist, but you're both wrong.
Quote:
the G-man said:
I didn't bother to read all that, but as near as I could tell it boiled down to "I hate Bush, so its okay that what seems like an entire religion encourages killing innocents."
Did I miss any nuance to what you wrote?
Wow. Mxy made incredible points in a wonderfully written post. And you ignore and belittle it like a child would because he makes a good opposing argument in a post that you can't truly counter.
How "fair and balanced" of you.
How "fair and balanced
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Look, you guys are blowing up babies in Iraq. No one disputes that. But it's for the right reason, so it's okay. Guess what, boys and girls: radical islamists (= all islamists = all arabs = nuke em all!) ALSO think they're blowing up babies for the right reason!
There's a difference between war and terrorism. They terrorized and we went to war. It's as simple as that.
Terrorism is murder in that terrorists become citizens and claim to be Americans until they bomb us. The only reason we don't call them "traitors" is because they had murderous intent since before they started posing as Americans.
Americans, on the other hand, went to war. And they(we) did so as a result of the attacks and Hussein's mean streak by associating with the people who terrorize us. The war is a means of self-defense--In which case, civilian casualities are inevitable even if they're avoided.
Quote:
They bombed two towers to enforce what they believe in, well, you bombed two japanese cities for basically the same reason.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima ended up saving more lives then they took away. I don't find that we have to justify the destruction of those cities. If it wasn't for the deterrent fear inspired by those bombings, The world would probably still be at war.
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but the fact that you're both blowing up babies when you could choose not to remains.
If they're not going to choose to stop blowing up our babies, then we shouldn't choose not to blow them up. I'm sure you already realize that we don't aim for their babies (unlike them).
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Everyone thinks they're right. Your crimes look as atrocious to them as theirs look to you.
Yes, and we all already know what you define as "our crimes."
Mxy, I'm very worried about you. Perhaps you should take some midol and calm down.
Quote:
You're never gonna get along, first of all, because you both insist in judging a whole culture (do you even understand what "a whole culture" implies?) by their worst exponents, and secondly because you refuse to even consider viewing things from their perspective, which is how logic says problems should begin their solution.
The rest of the Arab culture is a cheering accessory to the other terrorist segments. And the amount of belligerent Muslims in the mid-east is too startling to simply say, "We can't judge them all based on just a few examples." Well there aren't "just a few," they're terrifyingly voluminous--And this end result doesn't come from the people themselves, it comes from the traditions that make up their culture. The culture, in turn, is what crafts the mentality of the people.
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
The peaceful Muslims are afraid of speaking out against the Crazy Muslims, lest they themsleves become the next target of the Crazy Muslims.
Then if they refuse to take care of their own, it's up to non-Muslims to weed them out, which is what is happening right now...
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Pariah said:
Nagasaki and Hiroshima ended up saving more lives then they took away. I don't find that we have to justify the destruction of those cities. If it wasn't for the deterrent fear inspired by those bombings, The world would probably still be at war.
I said:
That is entirely debatable. many people saw it then and now as a way to bully the Soviets-the Japanese were pretty much done by then.
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The Japanese didn't think so, since they refused to surrender before and after Hiroshima was lit up...
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
The Japanese didn't think so, since they refused to surrender before and after Hiroshima was lit up...
That mostly had to do with the decision on the Emperor-which the US acquiesced to anyway.
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Quote:
Pig Iran said:
That is entirely debatable. many people saw it then and now as a way to bully the Soviets-the Japanese were pretty much done by then.
No they were not. They were still fully capable of killing a lot more of our soldiers. They proved that with Iwo Jima.
I also don't see how "bullying the soviets" could possibly have been such a bad thing. If we didn't give them incentive to stay in their own corner, we would have had a shooting war instead of a cold one.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Pig Iran said:
That is entirely debatable. many people saw it then and now as a way to bully the Soviets-the Japanese were pretty much done by then.
No they were not. They were still fully capable of killing a lot more of our soldiers. They proved that with Iwo Jima.
I also don't see how "bullying the soviets" could possibly have been such a bad thing. If we didn't give them incentive to stay in their own corner, we would have had a shooting war instead of a cold one.
I'm not judging it-just trying to state debatable facts.
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Culture, religion...whatever.
Yeeeeeeeeah, I stopped reading there.
Well, I should have.
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Not even close. The crazy as fuck terrorists attacked on 9-11 to [do what they thought was right] (again, attacking a civilian target). We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to [to do what we thought was right (again, attacking a civilian target].
I agree with this.
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I never judged the entire religion or culture.
Didn't you just say their "religionorculture" encourages them to blow up dance clubs or something...? I don't know, I deleted that part.
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Peaceful Muslims do exist. Why they don't do something about the those who kill in Allah's name, I have no idea.
I think the problem starts with the innocent guy I mentioned before, the one who does nothing wrong but is secretely glad that there are terrorists attacking the US. He feels that way out of resentment, because from his perspective his culture is being invaded by the western world. He can't reconcile his ideas with those coming in all directions from the west (and, let's face it, if we were bombarded with ideas from the east the way they are, we would feel the same way). He takes the silliest little things we do as personal insults and mockery (a bit like Oakley). There are millions of innocent guys like that who don't harm anyone in their lifetimes, but their unspoken discontent makes up the general sentiment in their society. Every society has extreme expressions of its general mood and, in this case, the result is disastrous.
Fighting the extremists (the end of the chain) is obviously a necessity but it's just a temporary solution, cause there are millions of potential others like him hiding inside decent people who have done nothing wrong. I think the only way to permanently solve a problem this complex is by reaching out to the regular guy and, somehow, calming his discontent. Explaining our differences, maybe (though, how can we expected to explain them if we don't know them ourselves? "Culture, religion... whatever!") Instead, what are you doing? Inadvertedly blowing up his village while trying to get the bad guys and giving him more reasons to hate you.
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There obviously are some aspects of the religion that cause and encourage the insanity of the attacks on 9-11, or the suicide attacks in Isreal, or the bloodshed in Iraq, or the violence against women in Afghanistan, or the human rights abuses in the Sudan, or the...
By that logic we could say that there our some aspects of the predominant western religion that encourage racial crimes, sex crimes, fascism, school shootings, serial killers, etc...
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Quote:
Pig Iran said:
I am saying:
I think there is a difference between murder and killing. I cannot get any clearer than that. I am also not casually listing anything-I'm just separating myself from the argument, and trying to explain certain aspects.
I think abortion is wrong, but it's legal where I live so I pretty much just shut my mouth about the issue. Most states in the US do not follow through on the death penalty, even if the criminal was sentenced to death (and the state itself may not have a death penalty). I pretty much keep my mouth shut on that issue too.
I'm not a warmonger, Mxy. I don't think we should be in the Middle East, or Korea, or Europe, or Japan, but our troops are stationed there or fighting there. These are not my decisions, and I do not believe in the ultra nationalized/federal defense policies currently being practiced. Again, I voted but didn't vote for Bush or Kerry so I really can't say much about it other than I'm against it. I'm a Constitutionalist, and I believe in state rights and state power, and as little federal power as feasibly possible.
I do believe in an "Eye for an eye", Mxy-in the principle. The principle is that you take an eye for an eye-an equal measure. You don't take a hand off if someone steals a loaf of bread-you make them pay the person who was robbed or give the robbed compensation equal to the stolen bread. If a person kills an innocent civilian they should lose their own right to life, because they stole it from someone else. A life can only replace a life, but it doesn't mean you should take two or three in return for the one.
As I said: you're explaining when you think taking a life is right. I don't agree with you. I think it's only justified when you absolutely have no other choice. Then there's someone else who think I'm wrong, you can never kill no matter the context. We all agree that it's never okay to target innocents... but are we that far removed from that posture? I don't think so. It's an extreme side within the same ballpark.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
There's a difference between war and terrorism. They terrorized and we went to war.
Yeah, the difference is in who you ask. If you ask them, it's a Holy War.
Listen, do you think the kid who gets his family blown apart gives a shit about the noble causes the US had for dropping that bomb? When someone comes offering him a way to punch back, how could he say no?
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Nagasaki and Hiroshima ended up saving more lives then they took away. I don't find that we have to justify the destruction of those cities.
And yep, you guessed it, they don't see why they would have to justify the destruction of those two towers. Obviously I can understand your reasons for Hiroshima a lot better than I can understand the reasons behind 9-11, but that's only because we have similar cultural settings.
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If it wasn't for the deterrent fear inspired by those bombings,
Yeah, fear worked real good in the Middle East.
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The world would probably still be at war.
Isn't it?
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Everyone thinks they're right. Your crimes look as atrocious to them as theirs look to you.
Yes, and we all already know what you define as "our crimes."
Mxy, I'm very worried about you. Perhaps you should take some midol and calm down.
In this case, I'm talking about what they percieve as your crimes. But thanks for worrying.
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The rest of the Arab culture is a cheering accessory to the other terrorist segments. And the amount of belligerent Muslims in the mid-east is too startling to simply say, "We can't judge them all based on just a few examples." Well there aren't "just a few," they're terrifyingly voluminous--And this end result doesn't come from the people themselves, it comes from the traditions that make up their culture. The culture, in turn, is what crafts the mentality of the people.
So what are you gonna do? Nuke 'em all? Then the rest of the world will turn against you. Fuck, I'll sign up to fight you myself. What then? You gonna nuke us too? The way you're handling this, it's never gonna end.
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It's at the very heart of human nature for man to kill. We are still a very primitive, young, and violent species.
It would be ideal if man survives his infancy..after all, we were still living in caves 20 thousand years ago.... We will evolve past all this..if we do not self - destruct before that point.
What is the answer to our problems with violence and war for right now? Damned if I know.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
What is the answer to our problems with violence and war for right now? Damned if I know.
Free liquor.
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We touched on this last week: bullets dipped in pig blood.
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"Hey this is PCG342's bro..." 15000+ posts
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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Yeeeeeeeeah, I stopped reading there.
Well, I should have.
Oh well.
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Not even close. The crazy as fuck terrorists attacked on 9-11 to [do what they thought was right] (again, attacking a civilian target). We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to [to do what we thought was right (again, attacking a civilian target]
I agree with this.
You have a weird rational for 'what people think is right'. Terrorists think they are right...so that makes it acceptable? We know what they think: what do you think? They should get a free pass because they have a twisted outlook on life?
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I never judged the entire religion or culture.
Didn't you just say their "religionorculture" encourages them to blow up dance clubs or something...? I don't know, I deleted that part.
Then go back and read it. Save the 'I shouldn't read it/I didn't read it/I'm not going to read it' "threats".
Anyway, yes, there is appearantly something in the Muslim religion or culture that encourages their followers to blow up dance clubs, school buses, and hospitals.
Unless they all happen to get the ideas randomly.
...
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Peaceful Muslims do exist. Why they don't do something about the those who kill in Allah's name, I have no idea.
I think the problem starts with the innocent guy I mentioned before, the one who does nothing wrong but is secretely glad that there are terrorists attacking the US.
Doesn't sound like he's so innocent then. Not at all different than the Germans who were secretly happy that the Nazis were killing all over Europe (but were "horrified" when they "discovered" the concentration camps) or all the collaborators the dirty Soviets had.
Standing by and letting it happen isn't going to change the situaton, especially if you are "secretly happy" that it is going on in the first place.
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He feels that way out of resentment, because from his perspective his culture is being invaded by the western world. He can't reconcile his ideas with those coming in all directions from the west (and, let's face it, if we were bombarded with ideas from the east the way they are, we would feel the same way). He takes the silliest little things we do as personal insults and mockery (a bit like Oakley). There are millions of innocent guys like that who don't harm anyone in their lifetimes, but their unspoken discontent makes up the general sentiment in their society. Every society has extreme expressions of its general mood and, in this case, the result is disastrous.
Fighting the extremists (the end of the chain) is obviously a necessity but it's just a temporary solution, cause there are millions of potential others like him hiding inside decent people who have done nothing wrong. I think the only way to permanently solve a problem this complex is by reaching out to the regular guy and, somehow, calming his discontent. Explaining our differences, maybe (though, how can we expected to explain them if we don't know them ourselves? "Culture, religion... whatever!") Instead, what are you doing? Inadvertedly blowing up his village while trying to get the bad guys and giving him more reasons to hate you.
I think communicating and teaching is important, too. A lot of that is being done. We've built schools, hospitals, and given the Iraqi people a better chance at freedom and democracy than their own glorious leader and his asshole kids ever did.
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There obviously are some aspects of the religion that cause and encourage the insanity of the attacks on 9-11, or the suicide attacks in Isreal, or the bloodshed in Iraq, or the violence against women in Afghanistan, or the human rights abuses in the Sudan, or the...
By that logic we could say that there our some aspects of the predominant western religion that encourage racial crimes, sex crimes, fascism, school shootings, serial killers, etc...
Those people are punished by the law, and generally ostracized, and are not given the martyr/hero treatment.
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
You have a weird rational for 'what people think is right'. Terrorists think they are right...so that makes it acceptable? We know what they think: what do you think? They should get a free pass because they have a twisted outlook on life?
You totally missunderstood me. You have conviction that what the US is doing the right thing, right? People are being killed (intentionally or not, but always knowingly), but it's for a good reason. Well, what I'm saying is that they feel exactly the same way on the other side. Guess what: they don't think of themselves as evil. They think YOU'RE evil. And unless you're some sort of omniscient entity, how do you know that you're not the one with the twisted outlook? Because you know you're not? That's not good enough: they also know they're not twisted.
What this means is that invading them will get you nowhere, because from their general perspective you're not saving them, you're spitting on their culture. You may kill the terrorists of today, but in the process you're fueling the terrorists of tomorrow. As long as the cultural missunderstanding between both sides continues this problem will remain in one form or another. If you take away all their weapons they'll find another way to strike back. You're setting things up so the only option is exterminating them all, and that's not gonna happen.
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I never judged the entire religion or culture.
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Anyway, yes, there is appearantly something in the Muslim religion or culture that encourages their followers to blow up dance clubs, school buses, and hospitals.
You're judging the entire religion or culture.
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Unless they all happen to get the ideas randomly.
Again: does this mean there's something that encourages violence in our culture because we have crazy fucks too? You're judging them by their worst exponents, when ours are just as bad.
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Doesn't sound like he's so innocent then. Not at all different than the Germans who were secretly happy that the Nazis were killing all over Europe (but were "horrified" when they "discovered" the concentration camps) or all the collaborators the dirty Soviets had.
If you found out Saddam's Iraq was accidentally blown off the face of the earth, wouldn't you feel the tiniest bit of satisfaction? That feeling that maybe they're getting what they deserved. That Sam Kinison monologue about Chernobyl. That conversation with your mom, "Did you hear about it?" "Yeah... It's a shame..." "Yeah..." "They had it coming, though..." "Oh, yeah... But still... Horrible..." "Yeah..."
That's the feeling I'm talking about. The same general feeling in pre-WWII Germany: they were bummed out after being beaten in WWI, they resented the countries that constantly shoved their loss in their faces through their many restrictions, so normal people like you and me, most of which had nothing to do with WWI, started following a nutjob simply because everyone else was doing it. They didn't happen to get their ideas randomly, as you say, and it's improbable that a whole generation of psychos happened to be born at the same time. We may say we wouldn't act the same way if we were in their situation, but we don't really know do we?
This is part of the reason why I don't like Bush: he seems like the kind of leader that could only be elected out of disquiet.
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I think communicating and teaching is important, too. A lot of that is being done. We've built schools, hospitals, and given the Iraqi people a better chance at freedom and democracy than their own glorious leader and his asshole kids ever did.
This is a personal opinion, but I think they see all that as condescending. "Hey kids, you can't take care of ourselves, so here comes Uncle Sam to teach you how it's done!" Just my perception.
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Those people are punished by the law, and generally ostracized, and are not given the martyr/hero treatment.
Doesn't stop 'em from coming up more and more often. The fact remains that western culture, too, breeds violent psychos. Also, as I said, I don't think that in general they're openly idolized (remember that Arab Nation doesn't equal Terrorist Nation), it's more of an unspoken feeling. Kinda like what happened in some social circles after the Columbine shootings... some angsty teens thought those psycho kids were the coolest fuckers ever.
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Quote:
Pig Iran said:
Muslim clerics don't consider blowing up non-combatants as Murder, because the enemies are all supposed to convert or die. They are all enemies. Non-combatants are not supposed to be "targets" of any "Christian " nation's army/military, because it goes against our laws and most citizens' religious laws. some Muslim nations do not necessarily have those laws, because all citizens of those foreign powers are considered combatants. Hence, a lone Muslim can be sanctioned to blow up women and children in a coffee shop, and not consider it evil-or therefore murder.
Actually Islam does not support the killing of any innocent. These people have perverted their faith by saying a Bush-esque "with us or against us" black or white mentality so that they can justify anyone not on their side as being an enemy.
Jihad isn't a holy war, a muslim friend explained it as basically strong faith and the struggle against temptation and corruption. It too has been perverted by these radicals to say that the same rules that allow them to kill a man who is invading their home can also allow them to kill anyone who is against them. But even then they often have their own views and justifications, same as we do.
I think both the chickenhawks here and the radicals there need to stop being so damn rigid and conservative and religious. Then we'd probably be able to work this out.
Bow ties are coool.
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I think we should work on America. We should make America the greatest country instead of just saying it is. We should make it so the wealthiest and most powerful county on Earth doesn't have such high poverty and embarassingly low education rates. We should elect leaders based on intellect and not on slogans, we should only act with honor and nobility around the world.
Then and only then will we have the right to "fix" other countries.
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We will never have the right to "fix" other countries--No one has that right, not even your precious UN. That's just absurd. And if that's what this nation decided to become, I'd make sure to burn it down to make sure the world, as influenced by Western culture, stood a fighting chance against such tyrrany.
We act on our own interests-- We invade countries (and in the case of Iraq, we also stabiliaze) in the pursuit of our own interests.
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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Yeah, the difference is in who you ask. If you ask them, it's a Holy War.
You and I know better.
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Listen, do you think the kid who gets his family blown apart gives a shit about the noble causes the US had for dropping that bomb? When someone comes offering him a way to punch back, how could he say no?
By actually analyzing the difference between the two cultures?
I hold no ill will towards other countries that committed certain acts against American forces in the past because what they did was commit acts of war that are offensive to me only as a nation. I wouldn't take the torture of American soldiers or their deaths personally because they died in a war during wartime (although I would be saddened). If America was the one who got atomic bombs dropped on its cities by a warring country, I wouldn't have held it against the country even if I would defend my nation against them to the death.
If that kid actually understood the ways of war rather than acted out of blind rage, he definitely could say no. In which case, I don't find your example to be any kind of excuse even if it is a reason.
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And yep, you guessed it, they don't see why they would have to justify the destruction of those two towers. Obviously I can understand your reasons for Hiroshima a lot better than I can understand the reasons behind 9-11, but that's only because we have similar cultural settings.
And because of our more properly alligned perceptions, we can honestly say that we're right and they're wrong AND fucking crazy.
Just because there's two sides to the argument, that doesn't mean there's not an absolute answer. You can't say I'm close-minded just because I believe something that the other side doesn't.
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Yeah, fear worked real good in the Middle East.
The Middle East wasn't the problem at the time. And I never presumed to say it would work on them. I fully realize that their zealousness is so impressive that death doesn't scare them. At the same time, I think that's all the more reason to wipe them out if they become our enemies.
That, to me, is the real problem we're facing right now; America is not respecting the Middle East enough to understand that they can't be pacified. They are, quite frankly, a diseased limb that the world refuses to amputate. The only reason China and Russia won't do it because they're so good at distracting/splitting the US.
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Isn't it?
No. Just certain parts. I was talking about World War 2.
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So what are you gonna do? Nuke 'em all?
It's not a matter of wiping the people out, it's a matter of wiping out the culture. The death is an unfortunate but unavoidable bi-product since the only way the culture survives is through those people. Would I be prepared to nuke all of the Mid East if I had the chance? I'm not particularly sure that I would. However, I will admit that I would be vastly tempted seeing as how the entire region can be justifiably described as socio-cultural virus that destroys and perverts all it touches (see also: Europe, Australia, the Crusades, America).
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Then the rest of the world will turn against you. Fuck, I'll sign up to fight you myself. What then? You gonna nuke us too? The way you're handling this, it's never gonna end.
Considering detterents are still in place, I doubt the world would turn against us if we actually do grow the balls to wipe them out and then stand up to the UN to boot. But I'm not gonna bother with that line of argument since you obviously wrote it out of anger.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
We will never have the right to "fix" other countries--No one has that right, not even your precious UN. That's just absurd. And if that's what this nation decided to become, I'd make sure to burn it down to make sure the world, as influenced by Western culture, stood a fighting chance against such tyrrany.
But that's what we're doing now. We're trying to force feed our political system to the middle east. They have obvious flaws in their governments. If we wanted them to truly improve we would stop giving money and support to their worst leaders (Saudi Arabia), stop fueling the jingoism of their worst leaders (Iran) and just let them sort it out. Once you remove the western influence that we force on them through overt and covert actions you remove the enemy that unites them. that allows them to improve upon themselves and allows us to improve upon ourselves. But Bush wants to "fix" Iraq since his daddy didn't and make it America jr.
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We act on our own interests--We invade countries (and in the case of Iraq, we also stabiliaze) in the pursuit of our own interests.
We didn't actually stabilize Iraq. Saddam had it stabilized and under control and we had him neutered enough that he couldn't be a real threat. All we did was remove him (instead of letting the people of Iraq get fed up and revolt) and now we've turned the country into a focal point for terrorists.
Under our control Iraq has less reliable electricity and water (Bush was told that he needed to maintain those systems right away and he ignored it) and they have more violence.
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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Yeah, the difference is in who you ask. If you ask them, it's a Holy War.
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Pariah:
You and I know better.
Bush has called it a crusade, said the democracy we're bringing is "god's gift." He's making it a holy war as well.
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Someone:
Listen, do you think the kid who gets his family blown apart gives a shit about the noble causes the US had for dropping that bomb? When someone comes offering him a way to punch back, how could he say no?
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Pariah:
By actually analyzing the difference between the two cultures?
So your family is killed violently and suddenly by a French soldier and you're going to sit down and compare their art and culture and laws to our own? You're going to do a statistical analysis of all their laws and history and then say "yeah, I should support the people who killed my family not this guy who speaks my language and looks like me."
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I hold no ill will towards other countries that committed certain acts against American forces in the past because what they did was commit acts of war that are offensive to me only as a nation. I wouldn't take the torture of American soldiers or their deaths personally because they died in a war during wartime (although I would be saddened). If America was the one who got atomic bombs dropped on its cities by a warring country, I wouldn't have held it against the country even if I would defend my nation against them to the death.
Then why don't you join the army? You seem to love war and think it's such a great way to go about international relations. Why haven't you joined up? Or is it just easier to support the war from the safety of your mom's basement?
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If that kid actually understood the ways of war rather than acted out of blind rage, he definitely could say no. In which case, I don't find your example to be any kind of excuse even if it is a reason.
So then you must clearly feel that the people who joined the army in response to 9/11 weren't thinking rationally?
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And because of our more properly alligned perceptions, we can honestly say that we're right and they're wrong AND fucking crazy.
How can we absolutely say we're right and they're wrong? We're all only human, flawed as we are? Has the great Pariah never made a misjudgment, never been wrong once in his life?
How can you say that we are somehow the absolute end all be all of human potential?
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Just because there's two sides to the argument, that doesn't mean there's not an absolute answer. You can't say I'm close-minded just because I believe something that the other side doesn't.
But that's the whole point, isn't it? You're on one side of the debate claiming that your side is right. And somewhere there is a guy on another messageboard denouncing America as a corrupt place of sin and saying he is right.
god hasn't smited either of you yet, so how can you say absolutely that you are right?
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The Middle East wasn't the problem at the time. And I never presumed to say it would work on them. I fully realize that their zealousness is so impressive that death doesn't scare them. At the same time, I think that's all the more reason to wipe them out if they become our enemies.
You find their willingness to die impressive? I find it sad that any person is at that point.
I'm not sensing a whole lot of christian love, Pariah. In fact for someone who is getting into heaven (because your own rulebook says you are) you don't seem like a very positive or compassionate person.
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That, to me, is the real problem we're facing right now; America is not respecting the Middle East enough to understand that they can't be pacified. They are, quite frankly, a diseased limb that the world refuses to amputate. The only reason China and Russia won't do it because they're so good at distracting/splitting the US.
They are the spawn of the "holy land" so....
The fact that you see any race or nation as being in need of total destruction is just so sad. Every culture has it's value. Even with terrorists, the middle east has many positive things. And there are the majority of people there who have never harmed another person, but you would see them killed?
I personally have known some muslims who were bright people and had extremely similar religious views to the christians i've known. I've known muslims who denounced the violence in their home countries the same way there were russian who denounced the USSR.
Every culture has value, every country has value. I would hope that one day when America isn't quite so strong militarily that someone doesn't come along and look at our bloody history with the indians or our bloody present in terms of crime and poverty and say we need to be amputated.
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It's not a matter of wiping the people out, it's a matter of wiping out the culture. The death is an unfortunate but unavoidable bi-product since the only way the culture survives is through those people. Would I be prepared to nuke all of the Mid East if I had the chance? I'm not particularly sure that I would. However, I will admit that I would be vastly tempted seeing as how the entire region can be justifiably described as socio-cultural virus that destroys and perverts all it touches (see also: Europe, Australia, the Crusades, America).
That's right they were responsible for the Holocaust, and for our treatment of the Indians, and for Pearl Harbor, and for Kennedy being killed, and Vietnam, and for the 600,000 who died in our Civil War, and for every violent murder that happens every day in this world, and for the IRA, and Apartheid (sp?).
Or maybe violence is used by members of every culture and every race. And they're just the ones using it now. And maybe like all the enemies we've had in the past 200 years (Indians, Germans, Russians) we'll be at peace with them in 50 years.
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Then the rest of the world will turn against you. Fuck, I'll sign up to fight you myself. What then? You gonna nuke us too? The way you're handling this, it's never gonna end.
Considering detterents are still in place, I doubt the world would turn against us if we actually do grow the balls to wipe them out and then stand up to the UN to boot. But I'm not gonna bother with that line of argument since you obviously wrote it out of anger.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
You and I know better.
Who says we're right? We do?
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Listen, do you think the kid who gets his family blown apart gives a shit about the noble causes the US had for dropping that bomb? When someone comes offering him a way to punch back, how could he say no?
By actually analyzing the difference between the two cultures?
"Hmmm, I'm 8 years old and my family's been blown to bits. I shall now sit down and quietly analyze the difference between the two cultures."
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If that kid actually understood the ways of war rather than acted out of blind rage, he definitely could say no. In which case, I don't find your example to be any kind of excuse even if it is a reason.
Did you understand the ways of war when you were a kid? Now picture yourself surrounded by rublle and body parts. Do you give a shit about the ways of war? You wouldn't be human if in that situation you said "Oh well, it's for the greater good -- carry on!" You're not taking the kid's perspective. You're still being yourself coldly analyzing his situation from the outside. I've noticed this is particularly hard for Americans to do.
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And because of our more properly alligned perceptions, we can honestly say that we're right and they're wrong AND fucking crazy.
Why does our honesty count more than theirs?
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Just because there's two sides to the argument, that doesn't mean there's not an absolute answer.
I don't believe that for a second. The world is made of perspectives. I have mine and I defend it, but I realize that it could easily be wrong.
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You can't say I'm close-minded just because I believe something that the other side doesn't.
If you invert that sentence it's still true.
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The Middle East wasn't the problem at the time. And I never presumed to say it would work on them. I fully realize that their zealousness is so impressive that death doesn't scare them. At the same time, I think that's all the more reason to wipe them out if they become our enemies.
That, to me, is the real problem we're facing right now; America is not respecting the Middle East enough to understand that they can't be pacified. They are, quite frankly, a diseased limb that the world refuses to amputate. The only reason China and Russia won't do it because they're so good at distracting/splitting the US.
That's not an option. The minute you do that, the whole fucking world goes to shit. War breeds war, one way or another. If you do that, you'll start a bigger war and, of course, your only solution will be dealing the same way with your new enemies.
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No. Just certain parts. I was talking about World War 2.
Look at what you wrote in your previous paragraph: How is that not a world war? With that kind of mentality, you're putting the whole word at risk, even if only on the long run.
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It's not a matter of wiping the people out, it's a matter of wiping out the culture. The death is an unfortunate but unavoidable bi-product since the only way the culture survives is through those people. Would I be prepared to nuke all of the Mid East if I had the chance? I'm not particularly sure that I would. However, I will admit that I would be vastly tempted seeing as how the entire region can be justifiably described as socio-cultural virus that destroys and perverts all it touches (see also: Europe, Australia, the Crusades, America).
That's fucking nuts.
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Considering detterents are still in place, I doubt the world would turn against us if we actually do grow the balls to wipe them out and then stand up to the UN to boot. But I'm not gonna bother with that line of argument since you obviously wrote it out of anger.
No, I'm serious. And I'm not writing out of anger. There's a lot of resentment against the US in the rest of the world. I thought it was just us (Latinamerica) until I started working in a cruise line and realized it's everywhere. As I said before, the general mood of a society has its way of being expressed in its most extreme form (see: "Death to fags" and "Fuck the troops" rallies in the US). If you do something as unthinkable as wiping out the Middle East, that general mood would grow and so would its maximum expression. If our governments don't decide to go to war with you, then I'm sure terrorist cells would be formed to do the same thing. I insist: it's never gonna end this way.
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Then we will be forced to invent a ginormous booze launcher that will fling free intoxicants into all other nations, thus spreading goodwill and pissdrunkery throughout the world.
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I've tried that arguement about looking at both sides and taking in the other sides perspective before people. Trust, you'll not get very far with it on these boards.
 Racks be to MisterJLA
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 You don't think distributing free spirits (npi) to all the nations of the world will solve our problems?
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
You don't think distributing free spirits (npi) to all the nations of the world will solve our problems?
well, yeah, I do, but my comment wasn't really directed at you
Racks be to MisterJLA
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Oh look. Karl dissected my post and responded with his usual idiocy that I already exposed in a dozen other conversations prior to this one. Good for him. Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Who says we're right? We do?
Exactly. And you can't say that's wrong just because we think we're right.
Making attempts to look through the eyes of the Middle Easterners will only get you so far before your realize that you have to operate on your own views in the end.
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"Hmmm, I'm 8 years old and my family's been blown to bits. I shall now sit down and quietly analyze the difference between the two cultures."
Just because he would be so emotionally torn as to render the suggestion totally unlikely post-bombing scenario, that doesn't mean it's not good advice. If a person can't see past their blind rage well enough to stop and wonder if a suicide bombing (which will kill his own brethren as well as Americans) just might be the wrong approach, then how useful do they prove themselves to the rest of the world let alone their own country?
I fully realize that the only reason an 8 year old in the Mid East would have no fear or problem with going through with a suicide bombing is because that's how he was raised. But that, to me, is all the more reason to destroy the culture--So the atmosphere created it by it won't create anymore threatening fanatics.
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Did you understand the ways of war when you were a kid? Now picture yourself surrounded by rublle and body parts. Do you give a shit about the ways of war? You wouldn't be human if in that situation you said "Oh well, it's for the greater good -- carry on!" You're not taking the kid's perspective. You're still being yourself coldly analyzing his situation from the outside. I've noticed this is particularly hard for Americans to do.
Have you ever stopped to think that this is perhaps the best way to look at the situation? By having an overview that's not corrupted by extraneous elements?
No. I didn't fully understand war when I was 8. And I wouldn't assume that kid would either, but just because nobody bothered to teach him about it (which is very odd considering where he lives), that doesn't mean I should compromise my principles for the sake of his inability to grasp the true volume of the matter.
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Why does our honesty count more than theirs?
Are you saying it doesn't?
Mxy, you and I use absolutes all the time: You say America has committed crimes; I say countries are incapable of committing crimes based on the construct and nature of a country. And while we debated such things, I never heard you say, “I could be wrong,”* and I certainly don’t expect you to because that’s not what you believe. All of us must admit the possibility that we could be wrong about anything and everything, but that doesn’t mean that we have to, or should, re-distribute the amount of faith in our primary views for the sake of trying to empathize with our enemies’ views. It simply doesn’t make sense, the world can’t move it ANY direction if we all thought that way.
*That’s not say that you don’t think you could be proven wrong. I’m just saying that you wouldn’t pre-dispose yourself to such an idea.
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I don't believe that for a second. The world is made of perspectives.
That doesn’t mean one of them, or even a greater amount, isn’t correct.
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I have mine and I defend it, but I realize that it could easily be wrong.
But you don’t operate on the assumption that it’s not do you? That’s exactly what you’re asking me to do when you say I should look through the tainted eyes of an Middle Eastern child who’s family is a tragically unfortunate casualty. It’s enough that I don’t want that kind of thing to happen without being told that I have to stop fighting to make it so. If the West let those kind of things stop itself from having wars, it would have been destroyed decades before.
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If you invert that sentence it's still true.
Bullshit. Socrates and Aristotle both spent their entire lifetimes analyzing the status of reality, outlining all of its facets in an attempt to understand what it was composed of and how it got there. They spent countless hours approaching the idea of there being a God from both the positions of the theist and the atheist. They both came to the conclusion that there is a God and that monotheism is the most logically philosophical outlook. Obviously you think they’re wrong, but would you also call them close-minded for coming to an absolute conclusion even after their study?
My point being that it’s very possible to look at all sides of the situation and then take an absolute stand on the issue. One doesn’t need to stay away from taking sides to be open-minded in regards to the subject. Your assessment isn’t fair.
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That's not an option. The minute you do that, the whole fucking world goes to shit. War breeds war, one way or another. If you do that, you'll start a bigger war and, of course, your only solution will be dealing the same way with your new enemies.
That’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it.
If we destroyed the Middle East entirely and crumbled its infectious and radiant culture into pieces so as to make sure their brand of fanaticism was never encountered again…You’re right, it’s very possible that the rest of the world would then try to destroy us. Then again, the ME has been a problem for everyone in some form or another, even if they wouldn’t immediately realize it, it’s also possible that they wouldn’t do shit…Except call us imperialist and murdering bastards of course. I mean you do it all the time—As does the UN—As does China—As does Russia. Furthermore, each of those countries would probably cheer us on since they, and us, realize with the most clarity the ME is a world problem. Even after they’d be happy for their destruction, they’d still use it as an excuse to slander America and, if your worst case scenario holds true, attack us. In which case, I’d gladly fight them if it meant defending myself and my country against worldwide dishonesty.
In any event: The world didn’t do anything about Darfur, which involved the mass slaughter of innocent people in a culture that was more or less peaceful aside from the people who seized it. Assuming the world did anything to us if we decided to nuke the shit out of the ME, an area that undeniably harbors a hostile and violent populace and culture, what do you think that would say about the world’s integrity—About how it really feels towards America and its successes? Would you still be so willing to take up arms against us?
But before any of this, I want one thing and one thing only: A second American Civil War. One that destroys this ideological divide and then reunites the nation in whatever philosophy wins the battle (I don’t actually want people to die, but words just aren’t doing the trick anymore and true cultural change has proven to be unattainable any other way). That way, not only would we have one goal, but then we’d have a truly sincere empathy for what the rest of the world wants of us that we should tear each other apart. Other nations and propaganda machines have been working very hard to insert themselves into our culture so they could have a say in what we do and gain growing influence over certain Western populations so as to immobilize our ability to make decisions for ourselves. And guess what? They’ve been successful so far.
So you see Mxy, this is a lot more complicated then just having the world take revenge for a destroyed nation; it’s about bitterness…Towards the West.
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Look at what you wrote in your previous paragraph: How is that not a world war? With that kind of mentality, you're putting the whole word at risk, even if only on the long run.
It’s not America’s fault if the whole world overreacts to America’s retaliation against the ME’s long history of malevolence and belligerence towards us. In that rite, it’s pretty ironic, and pathetic, that America is the one who ends up saving the world from itself by chopping off the gangrene limb that is the Middle East.
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That's fucking nuts.
*shrug* I think it’s nuts that you’d take up arms against me rather than the Middle East.
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No, I'm serious. And I'm not writing out of anger. There's a lot of resentment against the US in the rest of the world. I thought it was just us (Latinamerica) until I started working in a cruise line and realized it's everywhere. As I said before, the general mood of a society has its way of being expressed in its most extreme form (see: "Death to fags" and "Fuck the troops" rallies in the US). If you do something as unthinkable as wiping out the Middle East, that general mood would grow and so would its maximum expression. If our governments don't decide to go to war with you, then I'm sure terrorist cells would be formed to do the same thing. I insist: it's never gonna end this way.
A reaction from terrorist cells is undeniable. But we shouldn’t live in fear of them.
As for the world…Well, let’s just say that I won’t be taking that bet. But if it does physically react to us, then I’ll remember Darfur and proceed to kill rest of the world off out of disgust.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203 |
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Pariah said:
Oh look. Karl dissected my post and responded with his usual idiocy that I already exposed in a dozen other conversations prior to this one. Good for him.
You're an idiot. I've long noticed that any time I take the time to actually get into anything with you, you eventually whine that I'm wrong and then ignore what I said.
Mostly this happens when I bring morality or shades of gray that conflict with your sense of amorality and it's okay to kill just because other people are killers.
I think the best point I made was that you could find people saying 50 years ago about Russia what you're saying now about the Middle East. And 65 years ago they said the same about the Germans. And over a hundred years ago it was the Indians. Then 300 years ago it was witch trials.
People like you always need some enemy. And not just a person or a group, but an entire race of people that you can point to as the ultimate evil in the world.
Does it make you feel better having an enemy?
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,919
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,919 |
The difference is that now people who think like Pariah actually have the power to wipe out whatever they see as their enemies before eventually realizing that they were wrong.
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Pariah said:
Exactly. And you can't say that's wrong just because we think we're right.
Making attempts to look through the eyes of the Middle Easterners will only get you so far before your realize that you have to operate on your own views in the end.
My point is that you justify doing horrible things in the name of what you believe and they're doing the exact same thing. So what's the difference? Why should the fact that you think you're right count for anything if they share the exact same conviction? In the bigger picture the whole situation is just two cultures reacting to each other. Take an objective point of view and you'll see that the only undeniable effect this conflict has had is the loss of millions of innocent lives (in both sides).
You say they're a poison to the world: to most of us so are you. You said it yourself, you do whatever you have to do to protect your own interests. Well, the result is that many nations, like mine, have been damaged irreparably by your influence. How is that not a virus? Considering your perspective (in that particular case), is like trying to look through the eyes of a cancer eating through your body. It's also protecting its interests. It also thinks it's right.
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Just because he would be so emotionally torn as to render the suggestion totally unlikely post-bombing scenario, that doesn't mean it's not good advice. If a person can't see past their blind rage well enough to stop and wonder if a suicide bombing (which will kill his own brethren as well as Americans) just might be the wrong approach, then how useful do they prove themselves to the rest of the world let alone their own country?
We're going around in cirlces. When I ask you to think logically you insist in going back to your subjective opinion as if you were incapable of distnacing yourself from it even for a second, and when I ask you to think empathically you dissect the situation with logic. The former paragraph is YOU analysing the situation, not the 8 year old. How hard is it to take his place for a moment? It wouldn't be human to react any other way in an extreme situation like that. I'm saying that your country's violent response only motivates innocent victims to join the conflict and keep it going. If you're agreeing with that and using it as an argument to destroy them all, then just say that.
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I fully realize that the only reason an 8 year old in the Mid East would have no fear or problem with going through with a suicide bombing is because that's how he was raised. But that, to me, is all the more reason to destroy the culture--So the atmosphere created it by it won't create anymore threatening fanatics.
It becomes more and more clear to me that the only reason your country has no problem going there and perpetuating the violence is because you, too, have been raised to respond violently. The examples r3x and I have given could easily be attributed to a "whites are inherently evil" theory... I mean, if someone was motivated to start that theory the way you're motivated to start one about arabs. Let me explain myself with an hypothetic situation: what if, instead of being white, the Columbine kids had been of arab descent? The exact same situation, but they happen to have a different ethnicity. It wouldn't be the Columbine Tragedy, it'd be the Columbine Attack. Their violence would suddenly mean something else. It would be used as proof that arabs are predisposed to violence. There would be a ten page thread about it here and G-man would bump it every two weeks with an article about an arab kid pushing another while standing in line. But no, since they're white, it just means that videogames are evil, or something.
To clarify, I'm not saying you're inherently evil... I'm just saying it could be argued as easily as you argue that arabs are.
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Have you ever stopped to think that this is perhaps the best way to look at the situation? By having an overview that's not corrupted by extraneous elements?
To do what, conclude that that kid is better off dead? Corrupting the overview with extraneous elements is exactly what you're doing in the other part of our debate.
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No. I didn't fully understand war when I was 8. And I wouldn't assume that kid would either, but just because nobody bothered to teach him about it (which is very odd considering where he lives), that doesn't mean I should compromise my principles for the sake of his inability to grasp the true volume of the matter.
Why is it that hard to "compromise your principles"? What's the big deal? It's just your opinion. By logic, everyone should seriously reconsider their position at least once in their lifetime, especially when they involve matters like these.
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Are you saying it doesn't?
Mxy, you and I use absolutes all the time: You say America has committed crimes; I say countries are incapable of committing crimes based on the construct and nature of a country. And while we debated such things, I never heard you say, “I could be wrong,”* and I certainly don’t expect you to because that’s not what you believe.
I don't need to say I could be wrong, because to me that's implied in everything everyone says, including myself.
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All of us must admit the possibility that we could be wrong about anything and everything, but that doesn’t mean that we have to, or should, re-distribute the amount of faith in our primary views for the sake of trying to empathize with our enemies’ views. It simply doesn’t make sense, the world can’t move it ANY direction if we all thought that way.
It's not that important when you're having an argument about who would win in a fight, Superman of Goku (Superman), but when we're talking about wiping out an entire culture, it's not only important, it's necessary. The direction the world has been moving for the past 60 years or so is one filled with escalating wars and loss of life. I don't know for sure in what direction it would move if nations valued empathy over protecting their interests, but it can't be worse than that. After all, what's empathy if not looking out for the greater good?
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*That’s not say that you don’t think you could be proven wrong. I’m just saying that you wouldn’t pre-dispose yourself to such an idea.
I AM predisposed to that posibility, which is why I don't take extreme positions (such as saying a whole culture should be wiped out). I don't support abortion for the same reason: I personally don't think a two week old fetus is alive, but what if it is? That fetus is worth defending for that posibility alone.
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That doesn’t mean one of them, or even a greater amount, isn’t correct.
I don't think in terms of "correct" or "incorrect": they're all equally valid, because we're all equal. If someone's conviction directly undermines all the rest, then of course he needs to be restrained from doing what he wants to do, but in looking out for the greater good we should necessarily keep him in mind and, if possible, find a way to co-exist in harmony. In the case of the US and the ME: stay the fuck away from each other.
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It’s enough that I don’t want that kind of thing to happen without being told that I have to stop fighting to make it so.
But if you stopped fighting, you would make it so.
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If the West let those kind of things stop itself from having wars, it would have been destroyed decades before.
Destroyed by what? Peace?
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Bullshit. Socrates and Aristotle both spent their entire lifetimes analyzing the status of reality, outlining all of its facets in an attempt to understand what it was composed of and how it got there. They spent countless hours approaching the idea of there being a God from both the positions of the theist and the atheist. They both came to the conclusion that there is a God and that monotheism is the most logically philosophical outlook. Obviously you think they’re wrong, but would you also call them close-minded for coming to an absolute conclusion even after their study?
Didn't Socrates say "that what I don't know, I don't think I know"? A more accurate translation would be "all I know is that I know nothing". He was predisposed to the posibility of his entire system of beliefs being wrong, which from my understanding is what gave him so much clarity of mind.
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My point being that it’s very possible to look at all sides of the situation and then take an absolute stand on the issue. One doesn’t need to stay away from taking sides to be open-minded in regards to the subject. Your assessment isn’t fair.
On the contrary, I think what isn't fair is putting so much value in your personal opinion that you'd be willing to commit genocide.
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That’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it.
If we destroyed the Middle East entirely and crumbled its infectious and radiant culture into pieces so as to make sure their brand of fanaticism was never encountered again…You’re right, it’s very possible that the rest of the world would then try to destroy us. Then again, the ME has been a problem for everyone in some form or another, even if they wouldn’t immediately realize it, it’s also possible that they wouldn’t do shit…Except call us imperialist and murdering bastards of course. I mean you do it all the time—As does the UN—As does China—As does Russia.
If the situation that we already percieve as evil imperialism were to be exalted, our response would grow as well. And what's the next logical step? Taking action to stop it.
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Furthermore, each of those countries would probably cheer us on since they, and us, realize with the most clarity the ME is a world problem. Even after they’d be happy for their destruction, they’d still use it as an excuse to slander America and, if your worst case scenario holds true, attack us. In which case, I’d gladly fight them if it meant defending myself and my country against worldwide dishonesty.
In any event: The world didn’t do anything about Darfur, which involved the mass slaughter of innocent people in a culture that was more or less peaceful aside from the people who seized it. Assuming the world did anything to us if we decided to nuke the shit out of the ME, an area that undeniably harbors a hostile and violent populace and culture, what do you think that would say about the world’s integrity—About how it really feels towards America and its successes? Would you still be so willing to take up arms against us?
But before any of this, I want one thing and one thing only: A second American Civil War. One that destroys this ideological divide and then reunites the nation in whatever philosophy wins the battle (I don’t actually want people to die, but words just aren’t doing the trick anymore and true cultural change has proven to be unattainable any other way). That way, not only would we have one goal, but then we’d have a truly sincere empathy for what the rest of the world wants of us that we should tear each other apart. Other nations and propaganda machines have been working very hard to insert themselves into our culture so they could have a say in what we do and gain growing influence over certain Western populations so as to immobilize our ability to make decisions for ourselves. And guess what? They’ve been successful so far.
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It’s not America’s fault if the whole world overreacts to America’s retaliation against the ME’s long history of malevolence and belligerence towards us. In that rite, it’s pretty ironic, and pathetic, that America is the one who ends up saving the world from itself by chopping off the gangrene limb that is the Middle East.
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fanaticism
A noun
1 fanaticism, zealotry
excessive intolerance of opposing views
What's more excessive than wiping out a culture, even if it means going into a world war? Take the end result out of the picture for a second: you're talking about how much you'd benefit from a civil war. Maybe you'd also benefit from spreading a plague, ever considered that? This reminds of the conference where the "Yes Men" (a group of activists) suggested causing natural disasters for profit in front of oil industrials, and were cheered. That's psychopathic behaviour.
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So you see Mxy, this is a lot more complicated then just having the world take revenge for a destroyed nation; it’s about bitterness…Towards the West.
Ever thought that maybe you're responsible for that bitterness for sticking your nose in other countries to protect your interests? If so, then I guess it must be totally justifiable.
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*shrug* I think it’s nuts that you’d take up arms against me rather than the Middle East.
If the Middle East wiped you out for whatever reason, I'd take arms against them. It's not the altruist american soldier I'm against, it's the unspeakable crime he commits.
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A reaction from terrorist cells is undeniable. But we shouldn’t live in fear of them.
Listen to yourself. It's that exact attitude what got you in this problem in the first place.
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As for the world…Well, let’s just say that I won’t be taking that bet. But if it does physically react to us, then I’ll remember Darfur and proceed to kill rest of the world off out of disgust.
As I said: that's exactly where your current path leads you, and it's disturbing that you seem to have no problem with it.
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