quote:
Originally posted by klinton:
Perhaps you're right Willie...I've said before that I'm completely aware that the Bible does indeed contain passages that condemn homosexuality. Out of need for personal peace of mind, I have examined and re-examined the Bible for reasons behind these passages, as I cannot beieve that God in his eternal love would hold me in contempt for living the life he gave me. I cannot imagine that he would rather I spend my life lying to myself and those around me by making me pretend to be someone I am not. This simply doesn't fit with the overall message of the bible, and would really be trading one 'sin' for another.

Dave, I do apologize if my conclusions have offended you, that was never my intent. I was merely trying to show you a different way of looking at things that to me seems more in accord with God's love.
I appreciate that, klinton.

And I again want to emphasize that all I've said is within the context of debating the issue. As I said, I've felt some frustration in discussing contradictions that are so obvious to me, and attempted to clarify with scripture. But my words are not intended with anger. We're just discussing an issue, and we hold different opinions on it.

What you say about attempting to reconcile the Biblical position on homosexuality, with your clear personal homosexuality, I have similar (although clearly different, in obvious ways) struggles with my desire for women, as a 40-year old single, never-married male.
I've often abstained for long periods, and at other times gotten lonely, or for various reasons taken sexual opportunities, when they were available to me.
And I've found that even my desire for women, what I expect from a woman, as a Christian man, or just as a sexually torqued-up heterosexual man, has changed a lot over the years.

A pastor once told me, when I voiced lament over not being married: "You haven't missed anything, Dave. Others who married at your age are now getting divorced, because they had the wrong priorities in selecting a partner. And now they're getting divorced. You've only spared yourself that grief." Or words to that effect.

So I experience some, not all, of what you're going through.

Regarding homosexuality specifically, it is one of the basic beliefs of the gay movement that you are born that way, that it is a genetic inborn desire, and that it should therefore not be resisted.

As I said, I believe that it is a compulsion, an impulse, not inborn, and that it can be resisted, and virtually eliminated. There are many Christians who were practicing gays and lesbians, who are now happily married heterosexuals.
So for some at least, perhaps all, homosexual desire can be overcome and eliminated. Not repressed, but just eliminated as a desire by a change in goals, perspective and priorities.

I hope this is not insulting, because my sexual desire for women fits into the same category, but... well, I'll begin with my own desires, and struggles with them:

I meet women who are clients that I desire to have sex with. And I have to not act on that desire, because to do so would be a patient/client violation (I'm a massage therapist). And believe me, there is a great intimacy and a great temptation, and a great OPPORTUNITY with many attractive women I meet professionally. And I've seen many who want me to cross that line, I like them and they like me.
Likewise, I meet a lot of beautiful women outside of work.
Even if I were not a Christian, there are limits I have to live within, if I want to have premarital/extramarital sex with women.

I've met under-age girls in their teens that I found incredibly beautiful, that I certainly had the opportunity with, but obviously that would be a bad idea. I could even get away with it, but that is a line I exert self-control maintaining, and have never crossed.
(When I was 30, I dated and had a sexual relationship with a 19-year-old girl, and even though she was over 18, I felt like a cradle-robber).

I was born with that desire. But in many cases I can never act on it.
And I consider myself a very sexual guy, too. It's not like I don't have the desire. It's very often difficult to say no and exert self-control.

Likewise, someone who has a compulsion to gamble, or rape, or murder, or steal, or have sex with children, or a drug addict, or an alcoholic. It could be argued that any of these people have an inborn compulsion toward these things. But it is destructive to act on those desires, destructive to others, and also self-destructive.

Likewise, even a married person doesn't suddenly stop having desire for other people. Couples grow apart, they argue. Married couples can have very bad periods in the relationship, and when each is frustrated with their marriage, and lonely, and someone attractive comes along to offer what's been missing, it's very easy to cave in to that temptation.
So even the ability for heterosexuals to marry is not a license that absolves them from struggling with the same inborn desires as everyone else.

~

Willie, your points are well taken also.

I understand your stance that differs from mine on the love-triangle of freedom, homosexuality and Christianity.

As I said, I made it clear where I think the line should be drawn. (a separate term for gay union that parallels spousal benefits, while making it clear and distinct from the definition of marriage. That does not distort the long-established definition of marriage. )

But I'm not sure I'd be happy with that either, because that legal line is always moving with new legislation, and I'm concerned that it could at some point tread on the freedom to practice Christianity, as well as the very meaning of Christianity, should part or all of the Bible ever be banned from public speech, by further legislation later.