quote:
Originally posted by Dave:

Or if I was prevented from teaching evolution in a school, even though Occam's Razor shows that it makes more sense than the Bible, I'd be protesting loudly. What is the difference in position with gays asserting their rights?
I've yet to see any conclusive scientific proof that homosexuality is inborn/genetic. It's just a theory.

What I've seen indicates that homosexuality is an abberant impulse. And that it does have a corrosive effect on society, in that homosexuality kicks open the door for a variety of abberrant sexual behaviors: Bondage and discipline, rimming, fisting, group sex, swing clubs, cross dressing/transvestites, sex changes, various other fetishes, and with or without the blessing of the gay community, pedophilism (as Big Ol'Willy also previously noted).

The America of 2003 is far more crass and vulgar than the America of 1990. And the gay movement is a part of that, a big part. It is a part of the in-your-face/ shock value/morally compassless, group-sex, anything-goes culture, that has very few standards left.


quote:
Originally posted by Dave:


And your sole example of the corruptive nature of homosexuality - with respect, such as it is - does not automatically lead to a designation of the term "corruption" .

I think you have in mind the misconception that perverted gays corrupt youths, some sort of anal rape which forever turns the poor innocent over to the sordid path of homosexuality. But anecdotally, I've never met a gay man so inclined. It just doesn't work like that. Gays make a choice in this day and age. From what I understand, again anecdotally, its a very difficult decision because it runs counter to societal expectations - get married to someone of the opposite gender, have a family, that sort of thing.
????!!!???
I don't know what the anal rape thing is about in your statement.
Although there are gay rapes. Though I don't consider that a major factor. Except in U.S. prisons, where it is estimated a million men a year are raped, which far exceeds the number of women raped nationally.
A guy I met at church in 1988 had just left the gay lifestyle and become a Christian. He was anally raped by two men at a Miami zoo when he was 13, and it screwed him up sexually for several years (he was 20 when I met him). He described frequenting gay clubs and having anonymous sex with many men, frequently in a parking lot or alley behind a gay club. Several gay men who have left the homosexual life have described similar experiences to me.
A friend of mine's home was adjacent to the back alley behind a gay club, and he complained that it was a frequent problem, of gays making out in or near his backyard.

But in saying corrupting influence, I mean a lowering of standards in society, at a more broad mainstream/secular level, as well as trying to re-write and undermine the Bible to suit their own needs, as well as adopting children, who growing up in such an atmosphere would be more likely to be homosexual or bisexual. And trans-gender stuff that really creeps me out. Women who look like Janet Reno. Men who look like men, but behave like women. And sometimes dress like women as well.
In Miami a few months ago, some 17-year-old kid in a Miami high school dressed in drag and was elected prom queen, and the guy came on stage in drag and accepted his award. A freakshow. Hideous. Perverse. That could never have happened 10 years ago. There were opinions interviewed on the news, both pro and con. Most of the kids who voted for him did it expecting a freakshow, and got what they expected.

It just lowers the moral bar.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave:


But you haven't given me any examples of its destructive or corruptive nature, other than HIV/AIDS, which even you concede is capable of being transmitted by straight people, and obviously people who use needles or have unsafe blood transfusions.
On the contrary, I feel like I've given extensive examples. If not, I just gave more above in this post.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave:

Is it destructive to a culture? Our cultures revere the ancient Greeks, their philosophers, their history, their military victories, all factors leading to Ancient Greece being considered a golden age. And yet they were a bisexual society: Socrates regarded homosexuality as quite ordinary. The bravest and toughest of them all, the Spartans, were the most flagrantly homosexual.
The Greek and Roman cultures began with great promise, then sunk into decadence that destroyed them from within. Many Christian scholars have written of the similarities between Rome on the verge of collapse, and modern America and Europe: huge public debt, huge entitlement programs, moral decadence and social division, orgies, bread and circuses (which were comparable to popular entertainment such as Jerry Springer, The Bachelor, House Party , and a slew of other insulting trash reality dating shows that border on softcore porn, and and other vulgar movies, television and music, that add to the perception that we live in a wild, promiscuous, standardless society, and create a common-sense notion that: "Well, it's on every channel, that must be what real dating is like..." and becomes a role-model of behavior for a generation of teens and pre-teens who are given pure tittilation in place of a real culture.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:

Richard the Lionheart, who was the flower of English chivalry, was openly homosexual.
This one, I admit, is a surprise for me.

If this is even true, I can't imagine it is that well known. There are more prominent gay men in history, I'm sure, such as Michaelangelo, and several Greek and Roman figures you've given mention to.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave:

You've debated me to a standstill on other issues, Dave, and I've been hard-pressed to match some of your well-thought out arguments. But, again with respect, your views on this issue lack cogent rationale.
I don't know how to answer other than to take the discussion one question at a time.
As I'm sure you can imagine, many of your points from the other perspective don't ring true for me either.
For me, it's so obvious and self-evident, but I understand you come from another perspective. The Bible stance on homosexuality in particular seems so crystal clear, as it relates to the corruptive notion of gay marriage. I find it difficult to believe, whether you believe the Bible or not, that you don't see that the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality.

All the re-spinning of that obvious point is making me dizzy.

We may just agree to disagree. But I hope that you can at least see my perspective, whether or not you agree with it.