quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:

You must mean me. I've only quoted what the Bible says. As I've said on pretty much every page of this topic, repeatedly, it's NOT my/our judgement. We are all imperfect in different ways (i.e., we are ALL sinners, whether Christians or non-Christians, homosexuals or HETEROsexuals, all are imperfect in the eyes of God.)
I've only clarified what the Bible ITSELF says. I've pointed out the STANDARD, not passed judgement. Judgement is reserved for God alone.

quote:
Originally posted by harleykwin:

Actually, I didn't mean you specifically. I wrote that without anyone in particualr in mind, but with some of the things I had read two nights ago still in my head - who said what wasn't what I was thinking about. I was trying to respond to Batwoman's comment about Christians defending themselves. My point was only that if Christians (or for that matter, anyone really) called someone something negative, they cannot then be surprised that someone responds by defending themselves. That's all.

However, I do now have a question based on the above comment. You state that this is not your judgment - or rather, a Christian judgment - but just a standard that is established. But the standard sets the bar that people should follow and so it becomes clear that if you do "A" you're good, but if you do "B," then you are not. Yes, that's oversimplifying it, but my question is, isn't that a judgment? And if so, then people following these tenents set by religion do judge based on the standard. Yet, you claim its not your judgment. How can you separate the two?

Dave TWB, I realize that this being the internet tone and inflection are lost, so let me just say that I don't mean this to be rude, I am curious even though it's wandered off the original topic.
No offense taken, Harleykwin.

I think that in general, whether Christian or non, people when they're younger have a tendency to see things in stark black and white ideals, right or wrong, and as you get older, you're more sympathetic to people's individual quirks and vulnerabilities that make them have affairs, do drugs, become alcoholic, and so forth.

Christians are no different in this. And it really takes a lot of Biblical reading on your own to see how consistent, and logical, and loving the Bible is. I find what is taught in church to be very different from reading the Bible on your own.
Most of the characters in the Bible are flawed people, who struggle to serve god anyway, despite their flaws and vulnerabilities: King David, for example, or Moses, or Jacob, or Solomon, or Jonah, or Paul. Or Mary Magdalin. The Bible doesn't teach condescension and prejudicial judgement. It teaches understanding and forgiveness.

As I quoted earlier, it says that
quote:
"All fall short of the glory of God. It is by faith you are saved, not works, so no man should boast"
By biblical standards, all fail to live up to the standard of the 10 Commandments ("the Law") and all are equally sinful (sin was originally an archery term, meaning "to miss the mark").
And therefore, since all are sinful, no one has the right to judge. Only God has the wisdom to judge. We're to know the Biblical standard and teach the Biblical standard, but judgement is reserved for God alone.

When I see someone who makes me angry, or who I initially don't like for whatever reason, I try and think to myself This person is struggling with insecurities and frustrations and anger and peer pressure, just like me, and in that moment I feel common ground with them, and am more sympathetic.
But like anyone else, when I'm under pressure and things aren't going well, I have more tendency to think "What an asshole !"
And maybe have sympathy for them later, if I remember it.

I think we're all kids basically. We become adults, but we still have a playfulness, boredom, sense of adventure, insecurity, or temper that can make us do irresponsible things. Not just so-called "bad" people, ALL of us. And that boredom/quest for adventure/loneliness/insecurity --whatever childlike intuitive impulse-- it can make us do unpredictable and irrational things, even when we're adult enough to know intellectually what the right thing is.
And a person who is into drug addiction, or prostitution, or has a violent temper, or is self-destructively promiscuous, they can be good people in many ways, and still be dangerous, to themselves and others. And it's not necessarily condescension or hate or judgement, as it is recognition that a person's emotionally driven impulsive behavior can be dangerous. To others, or self-destructive.

So knowing the Biblical standard is not teaching condescension and judgement, it's recognizing the destructiveness of the behavior, to themselves and to others, and instructing them to pursue a more fulfilling path.

I think American culture, beyond just Christianity, has this Brady Bunch/Leave-It-to-Beaver image of what a family is supposed to be where you have a perfect mother and father, and no one has any shameful problems like teen pregnancy, or drugs, or homosexuality, or marital infidelity. And we all like to fool ourselves that our family is perfect, and perhaps think "Oh, no one in our family would ever do that..." UNTIL THEY DO !!
Believe me, my family is not perfect.

And I think Christian families are perhaps a bit more so, driven to be perfect, or APPEAR perfect. Because everyone expects them to be perfect.
And for some reason, a lot of people love to see a Christian take a fall.

I think we all believe everyone else's family is perfect, and so there's greater shame, among your peers --who all SEEM to be perfect-- that you don't want to appear to have problems. So when some Christians ARE judgemental, I think it's a defense mechanism, and in professing perfection, they are actually trying to reassure themselves that they fit the moral profile they see themselves in.

Two movies that deal with families, and unraveling preconceptions of families that are normal or "perfect" are Pleasantville and Ed T.V..

But although I don't think many really consciously believe most families in America are The Brady Bunch, they still secretly feel like their family is a little more twisted than everyone else's.
And again, when you're the Christian family on the block, and you feel like you're supposed to be the perfect one, you tend to put up a bit more of a front of being perfect.
Maybe someday we'll learn how to talk to each other.