Dave TWB said: "I was discussing what psychologists within the APA --highly qualified people regarding psychological disorders, who feel their own trade organization is doing a dis-service to people who would benefit from counseling."

You were discussing perhaps SOME psychologists within the APA. It's a large organization, you know (having myself once been a member), and even it does not speak for all psychologists. In fact, not all psychologists working in the States are even members of the APA.

That SOME shrinks feel that SOME gays may benefit from counseling says...what? Very little, actually beyond personal opinion.

You have to understand about psychology and psychologists...and I should know, I have two degrees in the field...there is no unified theory at work in psychology. There are groups who have their own pet views of the world, and clinicians are the worst of that lot in that respect because so damned many of them are extremely removed from basic research into human behavior. They take their theory, assume its validity, and conduct their counseling and psychotherapeutic work on the basis of this theory. It can be argued that these clinicians are operating on little more than "gussied up personal opinion."

Dave, the thing is, in this discussion, we all know you have an agenda with this...you've argued that homosexuality is a violation of God's law based on biblical passages. What you're doing is obvious...you're trying to attach the supposed biblical evidence to an onstensible scientific context by saying that a few psychology types believe that gays can benefit from counseling and can even undergo orientation change.

Nice try. I have my doubts that anyone'll convince the bulk of psychologists that homosexuality is a mental/behavior "condition" deserved of treatment so long as the gay person lives a functional, reasonably contented life.

Jim